Has there actually been a case in a justified shoot of an LEO being hung out to dry.... - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Has there actually been a case in a justified shoot of an LEO being hung out to dry.... (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 8/15/2010 7:41:19 AM EDT

[#1]

Oh but that costs too much

Posted: 8/15/2010 7:48:34 AM EDT

[#2]

This thread is a good read, non-LEO here.

Terrible the loops they make you guys jump through to stay safe.

Posted: 8/15/2010 7:55:53 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not a failure to train. Just the officer used a particular weapon/ammo without a qual sheet.

ive never heard of it....our department is in the hole right now on training ammo and time to qual for secondaries
i know several guys who carry their back ups in their cars, that they havent qual'd with...is it against policy? yep
if the shit really came down to where they had to use those guns justifiably, would they be prosecuted? honestly i dont
think so

This is more the issue.

You are only issued X number of rounds. Those X number of rounds won't even fill your basic magazines to capacity, so you use some of your own ammo to supplement.

If your issued 30 rounds of 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot, and supplement it with your own 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot..................who's gonna know which rounds killed the BG when the time comes.

Dump em all in a pile on the desk and then load your mags and you will honestly not know one from the other.

Not if it's a completely different brand.

Posted: 8/15/2010 7:56:15 AM EDT

[#4]

Although I have not read all of this thread (Just got off work and am just too tired to put in a full effort) so this may have already been touched on, but if the level of force is justified, and you were acting in good faith, while performing yer duties, it matters not if you shoot the guy with a DE .50 or smash his head with a rock laying nearby. Because you use a weapon not qual'd and even not authorized, does not automatically make a good justified shooting a bad one! Now you may be in violation of policy, but policy ain't law! And even if you get a rip for it, yer still alive right? Last time I checked just violating policy is not enough for yer agency to not back you...unless u broke the law or acted in a manner of extreme indiference. If I happen to have my personal AR15 in the trunk of my patrol car, cuz I brought it out to show off to my coworkers and I get ambushed and grab it to defend my life, does not all of a sudden mean it is a bad shoot!

Posted: 8/15/2010 7:57:19 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Oh but that costs too much

I have a good one. Officer shoots his carry ammo for quals, but does not qual the first time, now he shoots standard ball and quals, they then hand him a brand new box of carry ammo.

Did he actually qual?

Posted: 8/15/2010 8:00:12 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Although I have not read all of this thread (Just got off work and am just too tired to put in a full effort) so this may have already been touched on, but if the level of force is justified, and you were acting in good faith, while performing yer duties, it matters not if you shoot the guy with a DE .50 or smash his head with a rock laying nearby. Because you use a weapon not qual'd and even not authorized, does not automatically make a good justified shooting a bad one! Now you may be in violation of policy, but policy ain't law! And even if you get a rip for it, yer still alive right? Last time I checked just violating policy is not enough for yer agency to not back you...unless u broke the law or acted in a manner of extreme indiference. If I happen to have my personal AR15 in the trunk of my patrol car, cuz I brought it out to show off to my coworkers and I get ambushed and grab it to defend my life, does not all of a sudden mean it is a bad shoot!

Agree.

Posted: 8/15/2010 8:04:23 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not a failure to train. Just the officer used a particular weapon/ammo without a qual sheet.

ive never heard of it....our department is in the hole right now on training ammo and time to qual for secondaries
i know several guys who carry their back ups in their cars, that they havent qual'd with...is it against policy? yep
if the shit really came down to where they had to use those guns justifiably, would they be prosecuted? honestly i dont
think so

This is more the issue.

You are only issued X number of rounds. Those X number of rounds won't even fill your basic magazines to capacity, so you use some of your own ammo to supplement.

If your issued 30 rounds of 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot, and supplement it with your own 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot..................who's gonna know which rounds killed the BG when the time comes.

Dump em all in a pile on the desk and then load your mags and you will honestly not know one from the other.

Not if it's a completely different brand.

That would be a policy violation........

Who's policy?..........not mine.

Posted: 8/15/2010 8:04:58 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We only qual with Winchester white box, or the xmas tree rounds. Our GO states we can carry one specific brand of ammo right down to the grain size. So when they pull my brass and see its a different brand i'm sure they would run with it.

The department is violating court rulings on training because you are not using "duty" type ammo for quals.

In Texas, per TCLEOSE, only 5 of the required minimum 50 have to be duty ammo. Your first 5 shots could be duty ammo (say Speer GD 124 grn+P), and the rest could be something completely different (say WWB 115 grn FMJ). But again, I'm just a cadet with no department, so department police may say something different.

Posted: 8/15/2010 8:08:33 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Not that I know of. But from what I've been told, if I were to shoot someone with a weapon I wasn't qualified with, I'd have to find my own legal representation as I violated departmental policy.

In many cases, that would be an advantage.

Posted: 8/15/2010 8:18:32 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not that I know of. But from what I've been told, if I were to shoot someone with a weapon I wasn't qualified with, I'd have to find my own legal representation as I violated departmental policy.

In many cases, that would be an advantage.

Yup...I have no doubt that I'd be better off with my PBA attorney than one provided by my employer.

Posted: 8/15/2010 8:40:28 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Not that I know of. But from what I've been told, if I were to shoot someone with a weapon I wasn't qualified with, I'd have to find my own legal representation as I violated departmental policy.

That's pretty much what I was told. We are told specifically what pistols & types of shotguns are authorized right down to models & equipment (trigger, sights, ect.) We are issued duty ammo for each of those weapons for carry & qualification. We use "surplus" (old brand of carry ammo) for training scenarios... NOT qualification which MUST be with 'duty ammo".

I asked a "what if" scenario in training once regarding involvement in a "law enforcement" situation while off duty with a personal weapon. There was a lot of stammering by the lawyer, and ultimately a "possibly covered" answer... followed by a stern "JUST DON'T DO IT" by a senior supervisor. All of which tells me "stay in the black, don't go grey... because it will be unpleasant for me at best, expensive or worse for me worst case"

Quoted:

I have a good one. Officer shoots his carry ammo for quals, but does not qual the first time, now he shoots standard ball and quals, they then hand him a brand new box of carry ammo.

Did he actually qual?

NO. Because different ammo shoots different. Different POI, or same POI but different recoil pulse, ect. ALL of which could be argued that he was unable to "handle" the duty ammo. That scenario just sounds ripe for a bad time for that officer. We MUST qualify with duty (carry ammo).

As far as some of the other scenarios mentioned... using another officer's weapon... don't think that would be an issue if it is the same make & model & ammo, which in MY case it would be (unless he was breaking policy... which in MY case I'm VERY comfortable won't be an issue). I think the "shotgun armory issued" policy would be a pretty solid defense in that instance.

As far as using a "perps" weapon in an extreme situation.... well it is just that, an extreme situation. I don't think that would be an issue either if you can explain why you did it. (again it's that "articulation thing & that "totality of circumstances" thing)

Posted: 8/15/2010 9:42:42 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We only qual with Winchester white box, or the xmas tree rounds. Our GO states we can carry one specific brand of ammo right down to the grain size. So when they pull my brass and see its a different brand i'm sure they would run with it.

The department is violating court rulings on training because you are not using "duty" type ammo for quals.

we never do, neither does the Police Academy use duty ammo for quals...........nor will they, far too cost prohibitive.

Posted: 8/15/2010 9:45:18 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
This thread is a good read, non-LEO here.

Terrible the loops they make you guys jump through to stay safe.

it is quite amazing what they will do to save $30.00 per Officer.............yet waste $1000s on things DARE, and other PR BS.

Posted: 8/15/2010 9:51:11 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not a failure to train. Just the officer used a particular weapon/ammo without a qual sheet.

ive never heard of it....our department is in the hole right now on training ammo and time to qual for secondaries
i know several guys who carry their back ups in their cars, that they havent qual'd with...is it against policy? yep
if the shit really came down to where they had to use those guns justifiably, would they be prosecuted? honestly i dont
think so

This is more the issue.

You are only issued X number of rounds. Those X number of rounds won't even fill your basic magazines to capacity, so you use some of your own ammo to supplement.

If your issued 30 rounds of 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot, and supplement it with your own 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot..................who's gonna know which rounds killed the BG when the time comes.

Dump em all in a pile on the desk and then load your mags and you will honestly not know one from the other.

Not if it's a completely different brand.

That would be a policy violation........

Who's policy?..........not mine.

I guess it depends on the department......mine specifies what ammo you will carry on duty for ANYTHING you carry.......Service pistol, AR-15 (even if it your own personal one), shotgun, BUG. But my agency.........so far...........always has enough and then some to issue out. Only catch is if you use your own BUG or AR15, you must qualify with that weapon and then you are GTG.

We supply Speer GD for 9mm, .40SW and .45 ACP, Hornacy 5.556 TAP 75 gr for ARs, Polyshock and Slugs for SG, and that new Hornady round for .380ACP. That is what we authorize and supply to our LEOs.

SO far........knock on wood.........it hasn't been cut in the budget.

Posted: 8/15/2010 9:59:21 AM EDT

[#15]

Bama,
You've raised some interesting points...

We dont qual with duty ammo in my dept, however, we do shoot out our old ammo and replace with new duty ammo everytime we go to the range.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my experiance, if dept policy doesnt specifically prohibit something, its going to be very very hard for a dept to hang an officer on "violating policy".

If you're dept doesnt specifically stipulate that the officers use "only dept issued ammo" then how can anyone be held accountable for not using only dept issued ammo?

If your dept doesnt issue enough ammo to cover the duty weapon, the BUG, and the off duty, (presumably the off duty and duty are two separate weapons) and they require that you only load those weapons with dept issued ammo, then they're going to have a hard time defending that in court. Document it. Document the hell out of it.

Having said that, I carry one of three guns off duty- my dept issued Sig 229 in 40, my G23 in 40, (filled with duty ammo) or my Kimber Elite Carry in 45acp (not filled w/ dept ammo). we do have an off duty carry policy which covers a yearly qualification. All weapons you want to carry off duty are to be recorded and qual'd on.

If your dept is giving you guys a hard time on ammo...document it, and do what you have to survive. In the event there is any subsequent legal action against you or anyone else....you'll be able to show that the dept policy was unrealistic and not actually able to be followed.

Nick

Posted: 8/15/2010 10:05:38 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Bama,
You've raised some interesting points...

We dont qual with duty ammo in my dept, however, we do shoot out our old ammo and replace with new duty ammo everytime we go to the range.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my experiance, if dept policy doesnt specifically prohibit something, its going to be very very hard for a dept to hang an officer on "violating policy".

If you're dept doesnt specifically stipulate that the officers use "only dept issued ammo" then how can anyone be held accountable for not using only dept issued ammo?

If your dept doesnt issue enough ammo to cover the duty weapon, the BUG, and the off duty, (presumably the off duty and duty are two separate weapons) and they require that you only load those weapons with dept issued ammo, then they're going to have a hard time defending that in court. Document it. Document the hell out of it.

Having said that, I carry one of three guns off duty- my dept issued Sig 229 in 40, my G23 in 40, (filled with duty ammo) or my Kimber Elite Carry in 45acp (not filled w/ dept ammo). we do have an off duty carry policy which covers a yearly qualification. All weapons you want to carry off duty are to be recorded and qual'd on.

If your dept is giving you guys a hard time on ammo...document it, and do what you have to survive. In the event there is any subsequent legal action against you or anyone else....you'll be able to show that the dept policy was unrealistic and not actually able to be followed.

Nick

Well said..........put it in writing.

Posted: 8/15/2010 10:09:10 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not a failure to train. Just the officer used a particular weapon/ammo without a qual sheet.

ive never heard of it....our department is in the hole right now on training ammo and time to qual for secondaries
i know several guys who carry their back ups in their cars, that they havent qual'd with...is it against policy? yep
if the shit really came down to where they had to use those guns justifiably, would they be prosecuted? honestly i dont
think so

This is more the issue.

You are only issued X number of rounds. Those X number of rounds won't even fill your basic magazines to capacity, so you use some of your own ammo to supplement.

If your issued 30 rounds of 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot, and supplement it with your own 147 gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot..................who's gonna know which rounds killed the BG when the time comes.

Dump em all in a pile on the desk and then load your mags and you will honestly not know one from the other.

Not if it's a completely different brand.

LOL dont even get me started....for our pistol's we just have enough to fill our magazines, no more...for our personal rifles/SWAT rifles....we were issued 50.....FIFTY...rounds of 5.56 soft point LOL
i said fuck that, loaded them into some mags and then proceeded to load up a good bit more mags with my OWN tap ammo...its probably against some policy, but im sorry not going into a rifle fight with
1.5 mags

Posted: 8/15/2010 11:21:39 AM EDT

[#18]

well, many federal LEOs has policies that when in a fire fight, anything goes. Golf club, a M60 , bad guy's weapon, whatever you can find.

Now if you use your own ammo in your duty gun, its not a criminal violation, but most likely is against policy (if your department has a policy against it) and most likely be a cause for term. Now if you use the same ammo as issued, well thats depend on policy too.

So you won't go to jail, but the CIVIL suit will be a pain in the arse.

Posted: 8/15/2010 2:17:12 PM EDT

[#19]

My policy doesn't list out the types of ammo allowed or disallowed, just the types of weapons allowed to be carried. However, it does state with the range masters approval other firearms not listed but similar in function are acceptable.

Were always issued enough ammo for what we carry, but I do admit that I have extra mags above and beyond what is issued stowed away in go-bags/tac vest etc... For this extra ammo, I will beg for more duty ammo, or purchase something similar in function/style to what is issued. (not that I really think there is a better handgun round out there than the Ranger T-series, so that is what I buy as extras)

Lets just say that if I burn through enough ammo to start using any personally purchased rounds, they're still going to be sorting out brass types while I'm on the phone with CLEAT. Civil liability be damned at that point, I am going home to my daughter.

Posted: 8/15/2010 2:45:42 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Although I have not read all of this thread (Just got off work and am just too tired to put in a full effort) so this may have already been touched on, but if the level of force is justified, and you were acting in good faith, while performing yer duties, it matters not if you shoot the guy with a DE .50 or smash his head with a rock laying nearby. Because you use a weapon not qual'd and even not authorized, does not automatically make a good justified shooting a bad one! Now you may be in violation of policy, but policy ain't law! And even if you get a rip for it, yer still alive right? Last time I checked just violating policy is not enough for yer agency to not back you...unless u broke the law or acted in a manner of extreme indiference. If I happen to have my personal AR15 in the trunk of my patrol car, cuz I brought it out to show off to my coworkers and I get ambushed and grab it to defend my life, does not all of a sudden mean it is a bad shoot!

Agree.

That is a good point, as I know a few people who are not authorized rifles that do...and not "to show it off to the coworkers..." carry them in their trunks, but only after qualifying with them at other agencies.

Not good, not bad, just reality.

Posted: 8/15/2010 6:07:21 PM EDT

[#21]

Like most things we do, I think it all boils down to:

"Objectively reasonable."

Several people have already pointed it out, but if you're justified in using lethal force, a 2x4 with a rusty nail through it is as legally defensible as any firearm.

Posted: 8/16/2010 6:41:50 AM EDT

[#22]

Was it legal/justified? This is the first question.

Was it within policy? If not why? There are many factors to show a good reason it was not within policy and be ok. This does not change the answer to the first question. Although someone may try to make it that way.

We had a policy that said you couldn't use a flashlight as a weapon. The intent was to keep officers from relying on it as the normal weapon instead of using impact weapons they were trained on. It did not mean you couldn't use it if it is was a situation that required you to. For example a night night time business check for security - nothing unusual - and an assailant jumps you. You have a flashlight in your hand and rectify the situation. By the word of the policy you would have to drop your light, grab your impact weapon and take care of it. This is obviously wrong. Under the intent of the policy you would be right using the flashlight as a weapon and easily able to explain why.

Conversely, if you responded to a fight in progress and grabbed your flashlight as the weapon of choice you would have a more difficult time justifying it's use over the asp/ baton, etc. This would be a policy question though and not a legal justification question. Legally you could use the light.

This applies to carrying additional rounds. Are you carrying a similar round because the agency doesn't provide enough or are you carrying a super high powered, armor piercing round because you don't like the issued round. The first is more easily justified than the later.

However, if you commonly carry something outside of policy and you get caught during an inspection, you may have to justify it or except the consequences without ever using the item in an incident. Chances are you may receive discipline just for having it.

Posted: 8/16/2010 6:50:30 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Not that I know of. But from what I've been told, if I were to shoot someone with a weapon I wasn't qualified with, I'd have to find my own legal representation as I violated departmental policy.

Hmmm, sounds like a tall tale. The court is still going to find the department legally responsible if you shoot a nun going for a walk while you were exchanging fire with the Sons of Anarchy while on duty, regardless of whether you used your personal .50AE Desert Eagle. The city, or their insurer are still going to be on the hook, seems unlikely that they would refuse to defend you with them being on the hook the same as you.

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:00:33 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Was it legal/justified? This is the first question.

Was it within policy? If not why? There are many factors to show a good reason it was not within policy and be ok. This does not change the answer to the first question. Although someone may try to make it that way.

We had a policy that said you couldn't use a flashlight as a weapon. The intent was to keep officers from relying on it as the normal weapon instead of using impact weapons they were trained on. It did not mean you couldn't use it if it is was a situation that required you to. For example a night night time business check for security - nothing unusual - and an assailant jumps you. You have a flashlight in your hand and rectify the situation. By the word of the policy you would have to drop your light, grab your impact weapon and take care of it. This is obviously wrong. Under the intent of the policy you would be right using the flashlight as a weapon and easily able to explain why.

Conversely, if you responded to a fight in progress and grabbed your flashlight as the weapon of choice you would have a more difficult time justifying it's use over the asp/ baton, etc. This would be a policy question though and not a legal justification question. Legally you could use the light.

This applies to carrying additional rounds. Are you carrying a similar round because the agency doesn't provide enough or are you carrying a super high powered, armor piercing round because you don't like the issued round. The first is more easily justified than the later.

However, if you commonly carry something outside of policy and you get caught during an inspection, you may have to justify it or except the consequences without ever using the item in an incident. Chances are you may receive discipline just for having it.

For some strange reason, I think I'd rather ride the river with someone that is more concerned about being prepared for the fight than getting jammed up for having an unauthorized firearm, i.e. a rifle, in their car, provided they have qualified and/or trained with it.

Again, not good, not bad, just sometimes reality.

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:33:45 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We only qual with Winchester white box, or the xmas tree rounds. Our GO states we can carry one specific brand of ammo right down to the grain size. So when they pull my brass and see its a different brand i'm sure they would run with it.

The department is violating court rulings on training because you are not using "duty" type ammo for quals.

we never do, neither does the Police Academy use duty ammo for quals...........nor will they, far too cost prohibitive.

Fortunately, in most places, you're not required to. Previous court rulings held that LE firearms training should be done with rounds substantially similar to thier duty rounds, not the exact same. The problem came into play when agencies back in the horse and buggy days were shooting .38 wadcutters for training and then carrying .357 magnum for duty. If your duty round is a .40 caliber 180 grain HST, then just about any decent .40 cal 180 grain practice round with similar velocity, recoil, etc. will satisfy the legal training requirement.

That said, some states may have specific training regulations to the contrary.

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:40:15 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We only qual with Winchester white box, or the xmas tree rounds. Our GO states we can carry one specific brand of ammo right down to the grain size. So when they pull my brass and see its a different brand i'm sure they would run with it.

The department is violating court rulings on training because you are not using "duty" type ammo for quals.

we never do, neither does the Police Academy use duty ammo for quals...........nor will they, far too cost prohibitive.

Fortunately, in most places, you're not required to. Previous court rulings held that LE firearms training should be done with rounds substantially similar to thier duty rounds, not the exact same. The problem came into play when agencies back in the horse and buggy days were shooting .38 wadcutters for training and then carrying .357 magnum for duty. If your duty round is a .40 caliber 180 grain HST, then just about any decent .40 cal 180 grain practice round with similar velocity, recoil, etc. will satisfy the legal training requirement.

That said, some states may have specific training regulations to the contrary.

Don't forget that many indoor ranges they won't allow you to shoot with lead anymore...........clean fire, and lead free bullets. I've seen several local PD indoor ranges shut down. Now they, the EPA, are starting to "test" outdoor ranges for lead content.............and it's going to shut down some outdoor LE training facilities or cost Millions to clean up.

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:42:30 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Bama,
You've raised some interesting points...

We dont qual with duty ammo in my dept, however, we do shoot out our old ammo and replace with new duty ammo everytime we go to the range.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my experiance, if dept policy doesnt specifically prohibit something, its going to be very very hard for a dept to hang an officer on "violating policy".

If you're dept doesnt specifically stipulate that the officers use "only dept issued ammo" then how can anyone be held accountable for not using only dept issued ammo?

If your dept doesnt issue enough ammo to cover the duty weapon, the BUG, and the off duty, (presumably the off duty and duty are two separate weapons) and they require that you only load those weapons with dept issued ammo, then they're going to have a hard time defending that in court. Document it. Document the hell out of it.

Having said that, I carry one of three guns off duty- my dept issued Sig 229 in 40, my G23 in 40, (filled with duty ammo) or my Kimber Elite Carry in 45acp (not filled w/ dept ammo). we do have an off duty carry policy which covers a yearly qualification. All weapons you want to carry off duty are to be recorded and qual'd on.

If your dept is giving you guys a hard time on ammo...document it, and do what you have to survive. In the event there is any subsequent legal action against you or anyone else....you'll be able to show that the dept policy was unrealistic and not actually able to be followed.

Nick

You should be using the old duty ammo for your current qual not just target practice because this is what the courts ruled.

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:46:12 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We only qual with Winchester white box, or the xmas tree rounds. Our GO states we can carry one specific brand of ammo right down to the grain size. So when they pull my brass and see its a different brand i'm sure they would run with it.

The department is violating court rulings on training because you are not using "duty" type ammo for quals.

we never do, neither does the Police Academy use duty ammo for quals...........nor will they, far too cost prohibitive.

Fortunately, in most places, you're not required to. Previous court rulings held that LE firearms training should be done with rounds substantially similar to thier duty rounds, not the exact same. The problem came into play when agencies back in the horse and buggy days were shooting .38 wadcutters for training and then carrying .357 magnum for duty. If your duty round is a .40 caliber 180 grain HST, then just about any decent .40 cal 180 grain practice round with similar velocity, recoil, etc. will satisfy the legal training requirement.

That said, some states may have specific training regulations to the contrary.

So a 124 gr ball would fly when you are shooting 124-127 +p+?

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:49:18 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not that I know of. But from what I've been told, if I were to shoot someone with a weapon I wasn't qualified with, I'd have to find my own legal representation as I violated departmental policy.

Hmmm, sounds like a tall tale. The court is still going to find the department legally responsible if you shoot a nun going for a walk while you were exchanging fire with the Sons of Anarchy while on duty, regardless of whether you used your personal .50AE Desert Eagle. The city, or their insurer are still going to be on the hook, seems unlikely that they would refuse to defend you with them being on the hook the same as you.

and..........as much as people hate Unions.......this is the biggest reason I'm glad I have one, legal support in case I was left out to hang by my municipality.

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:56:31 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bama,
You've raised some interesting points...

We dont qual with duty ammo in my dept, however, we do shoot out our old ammo and replace with new duty ammo everytime we go to the range.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my experiance, if dept policy doesnt specifically prohibit something, its going to be very very hard for a dept to hang an officer on "violating policy".

If you're dept doesnt specifically stipulate that the officers use "only dept issued ammo" then how can anyone be held accountable for not using only dept issued ammo?

If your dept doesnt issue enough ammo to cover the duty weapon, the BUG, and the off duty, (presumably the off duty and duty are two separate weapons) and they require that you only load those weapons with dept issued ammo, then they're going to have a hard time defending that in court. Document it. Document the hell out of it.

Having said that, I carry one of three guns off duty- my dept issued Sig 229 in 40, my G23 in 40, (filled with duty ammo) or my Kimber Elite Carry in 45acp (not filled w/ dept ammo). we do have an off duty carry policy which covers a yearly qualification. All weapons you want to carry off duty are to be recorded and qual'd on.

If your dept is giving you guys a hard time on ammo...document it, and do what you have to survive. In the event there is any subsequent legal action against you or anyone else....you'll be able to show that the dept policy was unrealistic and not actually able to be followed.

Nick

You should be using the old duty ammo for your current qual not just target practice because this is what the courts ruled.

We do that........call you off the road and qualify right then and there - right from their patrol car, dressed for duty, duty ammo, right out of the car and let me see what you got. I think that is the best way to assess and evaluate an Officers preparedness and ability. Those that fail, get assigned to remedial and go off the road until they reach proficiency/pass....... and are randomly called off the road to throughout the year "make sure" the training set in and they are "still" competent......if not then they get a nice talk with the Chief.

Same goes for Patrol rifles and SG.......we want to make sure they can deploy them from their car, fast, efficiently and shoot effectively.......and we put pressure on them.

That is just to "test" them........we also do scheduled training days.

Posted: 8/16/2010 8:15:34 AM EDT

[#31]

Not if it's a completely different brand.

If it's a different brand I would most likely get in trouble for it after the dust settled. I got in trouble for just carrying a different 9mm pistol off duty then the one I qualified with.

You could face disciplinary action if you are caught with it up to and including termination. I'm sure your existing weapons will suffice until the next qualification session as well. If you get in a car wreck or something on duty and they take you in an ambulance and find a weapon in your vest or trunk you will probably have to answer for it.

You must be psychic. Exactly what happened to me. It was in a holster on my waistband though.

Posted: 8/16/2010 8:19:42 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Damn you gave me a migraine......and I can't wait to approach the higher ups with this question :)

They issue you 60 rds of TAP for your AR. Your back up mags have 55 gr FMJ the same ammo you actually qual'd with but policy says you must use TAP. You used all your TAP and now shot the bad guy with FMJ's. Policy violation?

Is it a policy violation to even carry the FMJ's as backup ammo?

It would be here.

Posted: 8/16/2010 8:23:22 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not that I know of. But from what I've been told, if I were to shoot someone with a weapon I wasn't qualified with, I'd have to find my own legal representation as I violated departmental policy.

Hmmm, sounds like a tall tale. The court is still going to find the department legally responsible if you shoot a nun going for a walk while you were exchanging fire with the Sons of Anarchy while on duty, regardless of whether you used your personal .50AE Desert Eagle. The city, or their insurer are still going to be on the hook, seems unlikely that they would refuse to defend you with them being on the hook the same as you.

My dept. would most likely refuse to defend me.

Posted: 8/16/2010 8:30:24 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

We do that........call you off the road and qualify right then and there - right from their patrol car, dressed for duty, duty ammo, right out of the car and let me see what you got. I think that is the best way to assess and evaluate an Officers preparedness and ability. Those that fail, get assigned to remedial and go off the road until they reach proficiency/pass....... and are randomly called off the road to throughout the year "make sure" the training set in and they are "still" competent......if not then they get a nice talk with the Chief.

Same goes for Patrol rifles and SG.......we want to make sure they can deploy them from their car, fast, efficiently and shoot effectively.......and we put pressure on them.

That is just to "test" them........we also do scheduled training days.

I like this one.

Posted: 8/16/2010 8:33:00 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

We do that........call you off the road and qualify right then and there - right from their patrol car, dressed for duty, duty ammo, right out of the car and let me see what you got. I think that is the best way to assess and evaluate an Officers preparedness and ability. Those that fail, get assigned to remedial and go off the road until they reach proficiency/pass....... and are randomly called off the road to throughout the year "make sure" the training set in and they are "still" competent......if not then they get a nice talk with the Chief.

Same goes for Patrol rifles and SG.......we want to make sure they can deploy them from their car, fast, efficiently and shoot effectively.......and we put pressure on them.

That is just to "test" them........we also do scheduled training days.

I like this one.

Thanks, It's my monster

Posted: 8/16/2010 10:47:14 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We only qual with Winchester white box, or the xmas tree rounds. Our GO states we can carry one specific brand of ammo right down to the grain size. So when they pull my brass and see its a different brand i'm sure they would run with it.

The department is violating court rulings on training because you are not using "duty" type ammo for quals.

we never do, neither does the Police Academy use duty ammo for quals...........nor will they, far too cost prohibitive.

Fortunately, in most places, you're not required to. Previous court rulings held that LE firearms training should be done with rounds substantially similar to thier duty rounds, not the exact same. The problem came into play when agencies back in the horse and buggy days were shooting .38 wadcutters for training and then carrying .357 magnum for duty. If your duty round is a .40 caliber 180 grain HST, then just about any decent .40 cal 180 grain practice round with similar velocity, recoil, etc. will satisfy the legal training requirement.

That said, some states may have specific training regulations to the contrary.

So a 124 gr ball would fly when you are shooting 124-127 +p+?

I don't see why not. The muzzle velocities wouldn't be substantially different, maybe 100-150 fps difference, as opposed to to nearly 400 fps difference between .38 spl and .357 mag (depending on manufacturer of course). Don't get me wrong, if your agency can afford to qualify with duty ammo, knock yourself out. There aren't many out there that can. Especially if you're qualifying more than once a year. We qualify four times a year. There's not an ice cube's chance in hell my boss would approve shooting duty ammo every time. And frankly, I wouldn't even ask him for it. It's not necessary.

Posted: 8/16/2010 10:47:42 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bama,
You've raised some interesting points...

We dont qual with duty ammo in my dept, however, we do shoot out our old ammo and replace with new duty ammo everytime we go to the range.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my experiance, if dept policy doesnt specifically prohibit something, its going to be very very hard for a dept to hang an officer on "violating policy".

If you're dept doesnt specifically stipulate that the officers use "only dept issued ammo" then how can anyone be held accountable for not using only dept issued ammo?

If your dept doesnt issue enough ammo to cover the duty weapon, the BUG, and the off duty, (presumably the off duty and duty are two separate weapons) and they require that you only load those weapons with dept issued ammo, then they're going to have a hard time defending that in court. Document it. Document the hell out of it.

Having said that, I carry one of three guns off duty- my dept issued Sig 229 in 40, my G23 in 40, (filled with duty ammo) or my Kimber Elite Carry in 45acp (not filled w/ dept ammo). we do have an off duty carry policy which covers a yearly qualification. All weapons you want to carry off duty are to be recorded and qual'd on.

If your dept is giving you guys a hard time on ammo...document it, and do what you have to survive. In the event there is any subsequent legal action against you or anyone else....you'll be able to show that the dept policy was unrealistic and not actually able to be followed.

Nick

You should be using the old duty ammo for your current qual not just target practice because this is what the courts ruled.

We do that........call you off the road and qualify right then and there - right from their patrol car, dressed for duty, duty ammo, right out of the car and let me see what you got. I think that is the best way to assess and evaluate an Officers preparedness and ability. Those that fail, get assigned to remedial and go off the road until they reach proficiency/pass....... and are randomly called off the road to throughout the year "make sure" the training set in and they are "still" competent......if not then they get a nice talk with the Chief.

Same goes for Patrol rifles and SG.......we want to make sure they can deploy them from their car, fast, efficiently and shoot effectively.......and we put pressure on them.

That is just to "test" them........we also do scheduled training days.

My command staff would have a stroke if I suggested that.

Posted: 8/16/2010 10:54:01 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bama,
You've raised some interesting points...

We dont qual with duty ammo in my dept, however, we do shoot out our old ammo and replace with new duty ammo everytime we go to the range.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my experiance, if dept policy doesnt specifically prohibit something, its going to be very very hard for a dept to hang an officer on "violating policy".

If you're dept doesnt specifically stipulate that the officers use "only dept issued ammo" then how can anyone be held accountable for not using only dept issued ammo?

If your dept doesnt issue enough ammo to cover the duty weapon, the BUG, and the off duty, (presumably the off duty and duty are two separate weapons) and they require that you only load those weapons with dept issued ammo, then they're going to have a hard time defending that in court. Document it. Document the hell out of it.

Having said that, I carry one of three guns off duty- my dept issued Sig 229 in 40, my G23 in 40, (filled with duty ammo) or my Kimber Elite Carry in 45acp (not filled w/ dept ammo). we do have an off duty carry policy which covers a yearly qualification. All weapons you want to carry off duty are to be recorded and qual'd on.

If your dept is giving you guys a hard time on ammo...document it, and do what you have to survive. In the event there is any subsequent legal action against you or anyone else....you'll be able to show that the dept policy was unrealistic and not actually able to be followed.

Nick

You should be using the old duty ammo for your current qual not just target practice because this is what the courts ruled.

We do that........call you off the road and qualify right then and there - right from their patrol car, dressed for duty, duty ammo, right out of the car and let me see what you got. I think that is the best way to assess and evaluate an Officers preparedness and ability. Those that fail, get assigned to remedial and go off the road until they reach proficiency/pass....... and are randomly called off the road to throughout the year "make sure" the training set in and they are "still" competent......if not then they get a nice talk with the Chief.

Same goes for Patrol rifles and SG.......we want to make sure they can deploy them from their car, fast, efficiently and shoot effectively.......and we put pressure on them.

That is just to "test" them........we also do scheduled training days.

My command staff would have a stroke if I suggested that.

Fortunately mine just looks at me and says: "Your the instructor, do what you think is best." I got pretty much a free pass and I am currently - well the last 2 years - have been overhauling our Departments Firearms Training program.

and...........it has been a real moral boost...........my guys love this and eat it up, well.........except those that fail, but at least they have a good attitude and we try to coach them well and it is our job to: "set them up to succeed.....not fail"...........make them more proficient shooters and build their confidence.

Posted: 8/16/2010 11:14:14 AM EDT

[#39]

Mine says, "hey Rambo Paranoia, that shit can't happen here. Train as it won't. "

At least, I, hopefully, will make it through alive when it does.

Posted: 8/16/2010 11:18:43 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Mine says, "hey Rambo Paranoia, that shit can't happen here. Train as it won't. "

At least, I, hopefully, will make it through alive when it does.

Damn....I feel very lucky

Quote: I tell my Officers in training: "Don't have the attitude; If this happens I'll do this: have the attitude: When this happens to me I'll know what to do.- because someday it will.

Posted: 8/16/2010 11:32:29 AM EDT

[#41]

Oooops....strange double-tap.

Posted: 8/16/2010 5:40:32 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Even if you wont get thrown in jail for using an unqualified weapon, why risk it? you could face disciplinary action if you are caught with it up to and including termination. Im sure your existing weapons will suffice until the next qualification session as well. If you get in a car wreck or something on duty and then take you in an ambulance and find a weapon in your vest or trunk you will probably have to answer for it.

This is especially a concern with officers carrying subcompact handguns concealed that they havent qualified with. It raises the question to the public of whether the officer is carrying it with the intention of making it a throw down murder weapon.

I wish i could carry an AR on duty or shotgun slugs but im not willing to risk the punishment of getting caught versus maybe possibly using it once in my career.

One of my mentors keeps telling me to learn to maximize the potential in yourself and the equipment that you already have. Im pretty sure that if i ran up on him with a rifle, he could still kill me with a pistol.

If the officers at the Virgina Tech shooting had slugs they could have been in the building several minutes sooner.

by breaching with them? i have had some door breaching training and have never been taught to breach a door with slugs. I have been told to use breaching rounds or if absolutley necessary buckshot...

Posted: 8/16/2010 7:44:27 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Even if you wont get thrown in jail for using an unqualified weapon, why risk it? you could face disciplinary action if you are caught with it up to and including termination. Im sure your existing weapons will suffice until the next qualification session as well. If you get in a car wreck or something on duty and then take you in an ambulance and find a weapon in your vest or trunk you will probably have to answer for it.

This is especially a concern with officers carrying subcompact handguns concealed that they havent qualified with. It raises the question to the public of whether the officer is carrying it with the intention of making it a throw down murder weapon.

I wish i could carry an AR on duty or shotgun slugs but im not willing to risk the punishment of getting caught versus maybe possibly using it once in my career.

One of my mentors keeps telling me to learn to maximize the potential in yourself and the equipment that you already have. Im pretty sure that if i ran up on him with a rifle, he could still kill me with a pistol.

If the officers at the Virgina Tech shooting had slugs they could have been in the building several minutes sooner.

by breaching with them? i have had some door breaching training and have never been taught to breach a door with slugs. I have been told to use breaching rounds or if absolutley necessary buckshot...

Yes. Buckshot did not work on the chains and locks on the door.

Posted: 8/16/2010 9:15:54 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Even if you wont get thrown in jail for using an unqualified weapon, why risk it? you could face disciplinary action if you are caught with it up to and including termination. Im sure your existing weapons will suffice until the next qualification session as well. If you get in a car wreck or something on duty and then take you in an ambulance and find a weapon in your vest or trunk you will probably have to answer for it.

This is especially a concern with officers carrying subcompact handguns concealed that they havent qualified with. It raises the question to the public of whether the officer is carrying it with the intention of making it a throw down murder weapon.

I wish i could carry an AR on duty or shotgun slugs but im not willing to risk the punishment of getting caught versus maybe possibly using it once in my career.

One of my mentors keeps telling me to learn to maximize the potential in yourself and the equipment that you already have. Im pretty sure that if i ran up on him with a rifle, he could still kill me with a pistol.

If the officers at the Virgina Tech shooting had slugs they could have been in the building several minutes sooner.

by breaching with them? i have had some door breaching training and have never been taught to breach a door with slugs. I have been told to use breaching rounds or if absolutley necessary buckshot...

Yes. Buckshot did not work on the chains and locks on the door.

Any of you guys use or ever hear of polyshock 12 gauge ammunition = really good stuff ......doubles as a projectile and/or a breaching round.....if not I'll explain tomorrow, just got home from a busy night.

Posted: 8/16/2010 9:21:56 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
OP a very good question. This could also apply to the OC we carry.

To your question, we've had several OIS's and they've all been deemed good shoots. I wasn't privy to every detail though. The city PD and the Sheriffs Office are both issued handguns. City has glocks and the SO has Sig's. You can carry anything with a .40 flavor though as long as you qualify. We are also issued ammo but I know of some that carry different ammo on their duty rig.

With the AR's you can carry anything as long as you qualify. Even ammo. When we qualify we are given Remington 55gr fmj mc, but not issued anything (plus, I wouldn't carry that on duty anyway). We carry any .223/5.56 that we buy. Yes, we have more than 3 deputies....a lot more.

Good question and it got me to thinking. I'm going to do a little more research.

The department gives you XX number of offical rounds. You supplement with your own ammo. Big shootout, bad guy is shot with your ammo.

Policy violation/bad shoot?

1) If you get the same ammo as the department issues, how would they know?
2) Why would a deprtment do that?
3) A good shoot is judged on whther or not there was legal justification to use deadly force.
4) Policy violations could be anything, from not wearing the official 8 point bus driver hat, to having intoxicants in your system while on duty. Those may not make it a "bad shoot", but can get you anything from dirty looks to fired, if the Chief wants to take that action.

Posted: 8/16/2010 9:26:07 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If the cops in the Hollywood shootout had actually used the AR-15's they got from the gun shop, shot and killed the bad guys....bad shoot/policy violation?

Good shoot.

That would probably be a good shoot.
It would also be a policy violation. Of course given the totality of that circumstance, it's likely to either be forgotten, covered by some other policy about exigent circumstances, or be claimed that common sense trumped policy.

In situations that aren't as dire, where duty weapons are ineffective, if somoene breaks out the .30-30 instead of their issued long gun, there would likely be big trouble over the use of a non-duty weapon.

Most of this seems to be policy violation, not law violation. I'm sure people have gotten in trouble for it, counseled, suspended, or fired depending on the circumstance, it's likely that those kinds of punishments aren't made public.

Posted: 8/16/2010 10:03:21 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mine says, "hey Rambo Paranoia, that shit can't happen here. Train as it won't. "

At least, I, hopefully, will make it through alive when it does.

Damn....I feel very lucky

Quote: I tell my Officers in training: "Don't have the attitude; If this happens I'll do this: have the attitude: When this happens to me I'll know what to do.- because someday it will.

Very important to have and keep that mindset. Just like expecting to get cut in a knife defense scenario. The expected happened and I got cut. Drive on and eliminate the threat. Instead of "fuck, I'm cut! What do I do?!?"

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 8/17/2010 5:29:31 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Any of you guys use or ever hear of polyshock 12 gauge ammunition = really good stuff ......doubles as a projectile and/or a breaching round.....if not I'll explain tomorrow, just got home from a busy night.

Telll me more.

Posted: 8/17/2010 6:37:23 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Any of you guys use or ever hear of polyshock 12 gauge ammunition = really good stuff ......doubles as a projectile and/or a breaching round.....if not I'll explain tomorrow, just got home from a busy night.

Telll me more.

http://www.polyshok.com/

Most agencies in my area have been using this stuff for years. Basically we replaced buckshot with it. It is a reduced recoil round that:

1. shoots like a slug,
2. flies like a slug,
3. from what I've seen it is as accurate as a slug in our 870s
4. Doesn't over penetrate
5. Is actually an AWESOME breaching round so it does double duty

I've seen the actual live demonstrations from the company several times.

It is definitely I think a great tool for ALL officers to have, I think it's a better choice that Buckshot (prepared for onslaught) - but I still don't think it completely replaces slugs - sometimes you need a lot of penetration.

We did some of our own comparisons/testing of different Ammo and it has done everything the company says it does at least from what I have seen in both training and real world situations.

Posted: 8/17/2010 6:48:33 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mine says, "hey Rambo Paranoia, that shit can't happen here. Train as it won't. "

At least, I, hopefully, will make it through alive when it does.

Damn....I feel very lucky

Quote: I tell my Officers in training: "Don't have the attitude; If this happens I'll do this: have the attitude: When this happens to me I'll know what to do.- because someday it will.

Very important to have and keep that mindset. Just like expecting to get cut in a knife defense scenario. The expected happened and I got cut. Drive on and eliminate the threat. Instead of "fuck, I'm cut! What do I do?!?"

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Exactly! ..........Embrace the PAIN and keep fighting, if you feel the pain you are still alive.....drive on and stop the threat. That is why with Department Force/Force - Sim Training no heavy clothing allowed.....only T-shirts(Bad guy gets to wear the armor)..........I remind the pussies when they show up with heavy sweaters/sweatshirts that they'll do it naked next time

.........then I pull out the extra T shirts I keep on hand and make them change.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Has there actually been a case in a justified shoot of an LEO being hung out to dry.... (Page 2 of 3)

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