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Posted: 3/25/2002 4:00:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2002 4:08:13 PM EDT by TroDog]
First off Greetings, I'm a new member to this LEO site. I've been an officer in Miami for the past 19 yrs, assigned to patrol for now. I've been reading a lot of info about carbine rifles in the patrol vehicle, and I thought I would throw in my take on the matter. First of all we are not solders and there is no such thing as collateral damage, there is only vicarious liability. We do not spray and pray, and high capacity is a non-issue with a rifle shot, from a police stand point. Therefore, in my opinion a bolt action scoped rifle with a well trained officer can, and will always save the day. Please keep in mind that it is better to hold the shot than risk hitting ANY INNOCENT civilian. Just my thoughts on the matter. My title starts with officer not chief or major or captain, so I fall humbly in line. You all take good care! Officer R.Lee aka:TroDog
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 8:45:46 PM EDT
welcome to the board! I think i like the idea of just having the rifle option open if i should have a need. tnrifleman.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 8:51:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2002 10:12:57 PM EDT by Shadowblade]
Link Posted: 3/26/2002 2:51:45 AM EDT
Ok, interesting points. Here's some other stuff you should consider. "Police Rifles" often live rough lifes, in a trunk, jostled by oafs etc. A mil-spec.('ish) rifle is probably better suited to survive that environement. A military knock will also be easier to clean and repair. AR-15's in paerticular are accurate, and there are many accesories readily available so that you can make the rifle suit your exact needs, TRT breacher, TRT perimeter, night patrol or whatver. You cant do that with a bolt gun. A bolt gun is good if you have a contained incident and are set up in a position to take a precision shot. Bear in mind most police "snipers" are used less than 100 yds away from the prospective gun shot wound recipient. A bolt gun is useless during situations that are fluid and require the officer to be moving, ie building searches, or entries. If you have a scope on a general use bolt gun you are asking for trouble. Will the scope hold up to police work?? Will the mounting of the scope keep the zero from wandereing around? A high magnification scope will be difficult to use at close range. If you are looking for a "sniper" rifle an assigning to 1 person that will make sure it is taken care of a bolt rifle can have tactical aplications. Otherwise it is a restricted use item. An AR-15 instead of a shoutgun for patrol. AR-15's have reliable, sturdy, usable sighting systems for use at "police" type engagement ranges. Their operating systems are simple and robust. Magazines are reliable and easily rmeoved, inserted into the rifle. The .223 round is a fast round so shooting moving targes should not be difficult, trajectory is fairly flat. If the round misses it's target, or goes through it's target, .223 rounds penetrate less than 9mm rounds through building materials. So a miss with a .223 might be less trouble than an errant round from a HANDGUN, don't get me started about a miss with a 12 ga slug. The .223 can produce signifigant, incapacitating wounds at police enganement ranges with proper ammunition. "Scopes" for AR-15's are easily obtainable with mil-spec type mounts that will retain zero. "Scopes" are also available in mil-spec from non-magnified red dots to 4x32 ACOG-NSN's. Many of the "off the shelf" scopes are also night vision compatible, and available with illuminate reticles. Semi- vs. Bolt, A skilled bolt operator can fire many rounds quickly. A not so skilled semi- operator can fire many rounds quickly. The key is knowing when to fire, and your limits, as well as the weapons capability. You wouldn't carry a single shot handgun would you? If officers are responsible enough to carry semiauto handguns the should be good enought to carry semiauto rifles. Of course if you can't trust them with semiauto rifles maybe you should re-think whether or not they should have handguns. An AR-15 is a great replacement for a shotgun. A scoped bolt gun has applications as a special purpose weapon. Their application depends on the tactical situation, use of force rules, and officer training to name a few. I disagree with Shadowblade, if we are talking about general issue type weapons, or weapons likely to be used in patrol situations, semi-auto is the way to go. I agrre with him that their might be a few officers with continual training and close supervision that might be able to use full auto, but those are rare situations.
Link Posted: 3/26/2002 4:20:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2002 4:22:24 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 3/26/2002 4:21:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2002 4:25:12 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 3/26/2002 9:56:56 AM EDT
When my Chief asked me if we should order the 3 rnd burst option on our M-4, I confidently said, NO !! I agree that spray and pray has no place in law enforcement, but with the Semi only M-4, you can place well aimed shots beyond 300 meters and if the need is present to gain fire superiority, you have it.
Link Posted: 3/26/2002 11:18:42 AM EDT
Wow! I'm certainly in well informed and tactical company here, OUTSTANDING! Yes I agree that bad guys and gals have dependant personalities which is why most of them operate in pairs, IE multiple shot the need to make a second shot, but one shot should do. I'm not against semi autos, but for a rifle, I prefer a bolt gun. Just my preference here. As far as hitting something on the run, Well I went to a robbery intervention school where we had to shoot moving targets at a moderate walking pace, it can be done, but you must have an understanding of shot placement. Big terms I know, but all of you seem to have experience. Most of our gear rides in the trunk, often in padded bags so utility in a rifle might be as rugged as a hunting rifle. Talk about abuse! Full Auto, I'll pass, At 15 to 25 meters you might hold them all on a 24 by 30 human zone but beyond that there is a good chance of a flyer. Remember hitting an innocent is costly to you, your agency and your health, mental as well as financial. I don't know about this 223 vs 9mm penetration info. I watched a training video from RCMP where they shot 223 through cars and dry wall, looked very dangerous to me. A side bar,-- We need to keep this in mind when using our cars for cover!, and watch those front door frames--, The video was very convincing with all types of material and ammo, both rifle and handgun. I'm very impressed with the intelligent exchange of info, I look forward to future insights. You all take good care. TroDog
Link Posted: 3/26/2002 8:18:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 5:31:56 AM EDT
OLY makes outstanding points as do some others so I won't bother repeating whats already been said. In my agency, we recently started a Patrol Rifle program. We have some cars equipped with 870's and some with Bushmaster Shorty A3's (semi only M4 style). The rifle's are loaded with Federal 55gr soft points. As training as progressed every one of my officers to the man, would rather deploy the rifle than a shotgun. They feel more confident making the shot, and are not intimidated by the recoil. There is no doubt IMO that the rifle offers a tactical advantage as well as a safety advantage over the shotgun and even the pistol. As I teach my guys, "The purpose of a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle!"
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 2:32:01 PM EDT
A bolt action is for a sniper it’s a terrible choice for CQB. There is also something to be said for a semi auto sniper rifle. If you use a shotgun for CQB you have the liability of 9 bullets going down range for every miss. The shotgun is a less effective tool for gun fighting. SNIP (Please keep in mind that it is better to hold the shot than risk hitting ANY INNOCENT civilian.) If you have a target you shoot if you don't you don't. The 223 carbine is an essential tool for law enforcement one we need. If a 223 carbine is used properly its not more threat to innocent people than any other firearm. High capacity is an issue for continuity of fire. It’s always better to have bullets and not need them than to need them and not have them. PAT
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 2:36:56 PM EDT
one shot should do END IN my academy we were taught that the minumum standard responce is 2 rounds. If he is worth shooting once he is worth shooting at least twice. Also murphy states that what can go wrong will. Even high powered rifles fail to stop now and then. The bolt gun was preaty much rendered obsolete for anything but sniping and hunting during ww2. PAT
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 4:11:14 AM EDT
Ditto what OLY-M4gery said on EVERY point! [uzi] [sniper]
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 1:17:30 PM EDT
Hi TroDog: You are 100% correct about liability and spray and pray but maybe the training and tactical force SOP of your department it different than mine. Patrol Carbines (usually AR15's) should be viewed as "PRECISION RIFLES". As you probably know the longest "SNIPER" shot taken stands at 97 yards. We don't carry a rifle unless we can qualify (open sights and any optics) on a course that REQUIRES 2 out of 2 headshots at 100 yards. Now I'm not going to shoot anything with my pistol, shotgun, or rifle unless I have to (and believe me you'd rather have me shooting 100 yards with my rifle rather than my pistol). Ammo is a major concern with urban rifles and after everyone came to work with green tips we now require soft point (Winchester) or Hornady TAP rounds. 5.56 with the right ammo will consistently penetrate dry wall barriers with fewer deadly fragments than any revolver / pistol caliber, be it .38 Spl, .357, 9mm, 40mm, or .45. Sure stuff will come thru the wall and it looks spectacular (with almost total energy dump on target) but everything else sails right through without much trauma at all. Hollowpoints and dry wall often equal a bullet that thinks it's hardball, try it yourself (the author in no way really intends that you actually try this yourself and if you really do I hope you don't have a bunch of punk want to be, rap playing, Honda race car driving...) Sorry I went away there for a second. Anyway, the urban rifle trend it great if it is set up correctly and a major liability concern if it isn't. Buzz
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 1:28:57 PM EDT
i work in DETROIT. can you guess what i carry in the trunk?
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 5:44:37 PM EDT
Quietshoez, Let me quess, first aid kit, traffic cones, slim jim and a shoe box full of Krispy Cream donut coupons. If you are anything like Columbus, OH. PD you don't have shit (firearm related anyways)
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 5:55:30 PM EDT
right on the money, my friend. of course in my POV, that's personally owned veehickel for all of you cake eating civilians out there, i have either the bushmaster shorty with at least four mags or the benelli with a shitload of ammo, depending on my mood, and they can't say dick about it. it's a damn shame that i'm more heavily armed off duty.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 7:38:41 PM EDT
Wow, whereas I work in a dept. with 30 sworn officers in rural Colorado where our last officer-involved shooting was about 12 years ago, and I can carry almost anything I buy and can qualify with. And I'd bet that I face less hazardous calls then you guys do. Wish I could help! dp
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 8:14:56 PM EDT
Hi all.Not meaning to intrude(cause I'm NOT a LEO),but a comment was made that needs addressing: The .223 round is a fast round so shooting moving targes should not be difficult, trajectory is fairly flat. If the round misses it's target, or goes through it's target, .223 rounds penetrate less than 9mm rounds through building materials. So a miss with a .223 might be less trouble than an errant round from a HANDGUN, don't get me started about a miss with a 12 ga slug. 5.56mm WILL EASILY penatrate 1/2 STEEL PLATE at 200 yards.(I've done it)(55grn.FMJ)9mm or even.44 mag,won't even SCRATCH it at 25 yards. (tried that too).All testing was done at my farm and were done for fun,and these results are what I came up with.The police use IMHO the correct weapons for the situation.If more firepower is needed,they call in SWAT anyway.Other than a sniper role,cops are ALMOST always in a close quarters situation anyway.No need for highpower rifle w/overpenatration/over-kill characteristics.(hince,less liablity)LEO has a tough,and sometimes a thankless,and most of the time,under paid job.Bad publicity about "LEO uses 'eccesive force'(sp)to take out perp", is something that they just don't need.No.7 shot is MUCH better than a slug in a 12ga. anyway. (addressing the slug issue)Shot covers more of the target and is much less dangerous to innocent victims down range.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 9:36:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 9:39:44 PM EDT by quietshoez]
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: The police use IMHO the correct weapons for the situation.If more firepower is needed,they call in SWAT anyway.Other than a sniper role,cops are ALMOST always in a close quarters situation anyway.No need for highpower rifle w/overpenatration/over-kill characteristics.(hince,less liablity)LEO has a tough,and sometimes a thankless,and most of the time,under paid job.Bad publicity about "LEO uses 'eccesive force'(sp)to take out perp", is something that they just don't need.No.7 shot is MUCH better than a slug in a 12ga. anyway. (addressing the slug issue)Shot covers more of the target and is much less dangerous to innocent victims down range.
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yeah, that's exactly what i was thinking when i was involved ina shootout with two individuals wearing body armor,"gee, i sure wish i had a shotgun with #7, hold on badguys, we have to call SRT, so don't shoot back o.k.? (no flame intended, all in good humor)
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 9:59:15 PM EDT
My understanding is that the .223 rounds tend to break up quickly after hitting a solid object. They do, however penetrate armor/steel better. This makes it an almost ideal round. Excellent terminal effects, little overpenetration upon hitting other stuff, ie walls. Try this link for a study on this. http://blackwaterlodge.com/btw/articles/fbistudy.html I think there are more out there, this was the first one I found. I'll try to look for more later. dp
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 10:05:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 10:16:34 PM EDT by MAC-DADDY]
No flame taken,but a head shot could easily be taken w/a shotgun with a greater chance of stopping perp than a pistol or rifle bullet anyway.I'm not saying that I would feel any differently than you did,just that you could'a done it with a 12ga too.You know you could.Shoot'em in the face,body armor don't help much to protect against head shots.Who's gonna blame you for taking the head shot on a perp w/body armor that's shooting at a LEO? NO ONE.Close range(25 to 30yds)12ga.w/shot (6,7,4,00)is VERY lethal.Hit'em at close range w/slug at that range(center mass),and while they might not be dead,they sure won't be too frisky.(blunt trauma)It WILL stop the threat long enough to have a follow-up shot OR to disarm the perp.I'm no expert,just using common sense(some civilians,like me,STILL retain this uncommon trait).
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 11:26:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: Hi all.Not meaning to intrude(cause I'm NOT a LEO),but a comment was made that needs addressing: The .223 round is a fast round so shooting moving targes should not be difficult, trajectory is fairly flat. If the round misses it's target, or goes through it's target, .223 rounds penetrate less than 9mm rounds through building materials. So a miss with a .223 might be less trouble than an errant round from a HANDGUN, don't get me started about a miss with a 12 ga slug. 5.56mm WILL EASILY penatrate 1/2 STEEL PLATE at 200 yards.(I've done it)(55grn.FMJ)9mm or even.44 mag,won't even SCRATCH it at 25 yards. (tried that too).All testing was done at my farm and were done for fun,and these results are what I came up with.The police use IMHO the correct weapons for the situation.If more firepower is needed,they call in SWAT anyway.Other than a sniper role,cops are ALMOST always in a close quarters situation anyway.No need for highpower rifle w/overpenatration/over-kill characteristics.(hince,less liablity)LEO has a tough,and sometimes a thankless,and most of the time,under paid job.Bad publicity about "LEO uses 'eccesive force'(sp)to take out perp", is something that they just don't need.No.7 shot is MUCH better than a slug in a 12ga. anyway. (addressing the slug issue)Shot covers more of the target and is much less dangerous to innocent victims down range.
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You are correct that .223 rounds will penetrate hard cover better than handgun rounds, and can be really effective penetrators at closer (less than 75 yards). However the projectiles also tend to "yaw" or fragment after striking something. Tests of walls made similar to current building codes indicate that the rounds penetrate LESS than many 9mm handgun rounds, and I'm refering to M193, M855 .223 rounds.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 11:30:11 PM EDT
As far as shotguns, If a LEO fires a shotgun they are responsible for EVERY projectile that leaves the weapon including potentially the wadding. The standard that one dept uses for 00 buck is 18 yds or less, greater range means that a slug will be the ammo used. That is because if you aim center of mass on an adult male at 18yds, the pattern should stay on that person. Greater range means that the pattern is wider than the person, that usually is a problem. #7 shot, how many projectiles is that?? Headshot with a 12 ga., would alomost have to be a point blank range to keep the "pattern" on the intended target. Plus there are other issues with shotguns, sights (many LEO shotguns have BEAD sights), operating a pump shotgun and a flashlight at the same time, Recoil can also be an issue, esp. if you are shoting the SG, while trying to use a flashlight to help ID a target. I will say you are correct on the trajectory and effecive range of a shotgun. The rounds or pellets, are not as likely to still be in the air a great distance from the shooter, .223 will be. AR's are good because they don't really have recoil and can easily be operated with 1 hand. As far as "calling in SWAT...." If we are talking about hostage situations, robberies that went bad, barricaded subjects, etc. Those types of incident would be better managed with SWAT and negoitiators than "regular" LEO. If you are talking about LEO involved shoot outs, here is what I know. They happen suddenly and are over quickly, they most often happen at close range, and if the weapons that are used (by LEO's) need to avialable now. Not to mention that since many of these types of shoot outs happen at fist fight range, that if you shoot, but don't incapacitate the other shooter that person WILL have the ability to kill you. Even of they have suffered what will eventually be a life ending wound. Better to have a rifle and not need it............. AR's are accurate, reliable, easy to shoot, and decisive if needed. The round easily penetrates most cover, whether it is a car door or bullet proof vest. The round also penetrates less than most handgun rounds, used by police, in building materials. I'm really not seeing a down side to AR's as patrol rifles, as long as the officers have the proper training and use of force rules.......Well dept's. may not like PAYING for the rifle but........
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:28:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: As far as shotguns, If a LEO fires a shotgun they are responsible for EVERY projectile that leaves the weapon including potentially the wadding. The standard that one dept uses for 00 buck is 18 yds or less, greater range means that a slug will be the ammo used. That is because if you aim center of mass on an adult male at 18yds, the pattern should stay on that person. Greater range means that the pattern is wider than the person, that usually is a problem. #7 shot, how many projectiles is that?? Headshot with a 12 ga., would alomost have to be a point blank range to keep the "pattern" on the intended target. Plus there are other issues with shotguns, sights (many LEO shotguns have BEAD sights), operating a pump shotgun and a flashlight at the same time, Recoil can also be an issue, esp. if you are shoting the SG, while trying to use a flashlight to help ID a target. I will say you are correct on the trajectory and effecive range of a shotgun. The rounds or pellets, are not as likely to still be in the air a great distance from the shooter, .223 will be. AR's are good because they don't really have recoil and can easily be operated with 1 hand. As far as "calling in SWAT...." If we are talking about hostage situations, robberies that went bad, barricaded subjects, etc. Those types of incident would be better managed with SWAT and negoitiators than "regular" LEO. If you are talking about LEO involved shoot outs, here is what I know. They happen suddenly and are over quickly, they most often happen at close range, and if the weapons that are used (by LEO's) need to avialable now. Not to mention that since many of these types of shoot outs happen at fist fight range, that if you shoot, but don't incapacitate the other shooter that person WILL have the ability to kill you. Even of they have suffered what will eventually be a life ending wound. Better to have a rifle and not need it............. AR's are accurate, reliable, easy to shoot, and decisive if needed. The round easily penetrates most cover, whether it is a car door or bullet proof vest. The round also penetrates less than most handgun rounds, used by police, in building materials. I'm really not seeing a down side to AR's as patrol rifles, as long as the officers have the proper training and use of force rules.......Well dept's. may not like PAYING for the rifle but........
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Hey YOUR the expert,not me. "Not to mention that since many of these types of shoot outs happen at fist fight range" So the 12ga. is acceptable at that range in your opinion?I would more than think so. "The (.223) round also penetrates less than most handgun rounds, used by police, in building materials. Just what kind of super power pistol ammo do you LEO's use? What kind of "building materials" are you refering to?Sheetrock,2x4's and cinderblocks WILL NOT STOP .223 AT ALL(maybe at 600yds)but NOT at the ranges that you stated. "Do you expect me to BELIEVE that you think that pistol rounds are more powerful than RIFLE rounds?I think NOT. I'm Not flaming you ,it's just that I don't agree with you on certain points.We can agree to disagree.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:52:40 AM EDT
It is not that we use atomic pistol bullets, it all has to do with science. Example, a semi truck carrying 40,000 lbs of cargo takes a hell of a lot longer to stop after striking an object than lets say a car does. The FBI test that I recently received prior to my department buying the 223 carbines stated the following: After the below listed rounds struck a car door they traveled this far in ballistic gelatin. 12 gauge slug= 28.10" 40 S&W= 21.05" 9mm= 16.95" 223 62 grn bonded bullet= 14.55" 223 69 grn HPBT= 6.85" Same test using auto glass: 12 gauge slug= 10.65" 9mm= 11.80" 40 S&W= 13.65" 223 62 grn bonded= 13.45" 223 55 grn FMJ= 7.35" Same Test using sheet rock 12 Gauge slug= 26.15" 9mm= 17.80" 40 S&W= 21.60" 223 62 grn bonded= 15.20" 223 55 FMJ= 9.45" Average penetration for rounds tested 12 gauge slug: 7.50-30.50 40 S&W: 12.0-26.25 inches 9mm: 7.50-25.25 inches 223 with 62 grn bonded bullet: 11.75-17.25 inches According to medical experts, you only want your duty round to penetrate 12-18 inches of flesh. Any less, is not good, any more is worse. In a nutshell, my interpretation of their study was that the FBI prefers Federals 62 grn bonded bullet in 223 over anything else. [soapbox]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:58:26 AM EDT
Whoa, there Mac-Daddy, first off I am not an EXPERT anything, I have some extra knowledge in some areas, most of it stolen from actual smart people. Secondly all I am advocating is a police rifle in .223 over a handgun or shotgun in the right circumstances. .223, hopefully out of a reasonable AR, nothing exotic in caliber or doo-dads, like full-auto or supressed. My point in "police" gun fights, was that the line LEO that is likely to get involved in them needs the tools on hand available, otherwise they don't have them when they need them. As far as shoot outs at fist-fight range, no a long gun probably won't be used in those circumstances. But there are uses, high risk traffic stop, perimeter on a burglar alarm at a large building, suspect fleeing through a wooded area that are encountered regularly that AR's, esp. AR's with mounted flashlights, could be put to good use. I think shotguns are range limited weapons, firing buckshot rounds is good if you are CLOSE to the target, but as range increases so does the possibility of "errant rounds". Slugs are devestating, and I think it might be tough to explain (to the public) a 1" hole through somebody, even if it was a totally justified shot. A slug though is a lot of metal flying around, and they usually aren't pinpoint accuray type rounds. That concerns me. Also if the BG has a long gun a SG with a slug is a poor response to a rifle. Building materials, again, I'm not saying that a .223 round will be stopped by 1st house wall, but it is less likely to go through the 3rd or 4th wall (exit out the outher side of a house). Because the round is likley to "yaw" or fragment, when it pentrates the 1st or 2nd wall. It is the nature of the small fast projectile. 9mm will pentrate more, because it is less likely to yaw, fragment or expand. What one of the theories is, is that a 9mm HP will "stuff" the HP with building material and not expand, becoming basically a "hardball" round as it passes through the 1st layer of building material. The 9mm is also a heavier round so that it maintains it's energy better. The 9mm round isn't going so fast the it will disintegrate when striking sheetrock, wood etc. It's not that the 9mm is more powerful than .223 vs building materials, it is the characteristics of each round vs. that material that makes the penetration differences. Cinderblocks may be different, because I have no idea what 9mm would do to them. I would also think it varies a great deal where the block is hit, and whether or not the voids were filled when the wall was contsructed.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:41:34 AM EDT
Allright,OLY-M4gery.You made your point.I'll stand down(for now)(lol)Hey man, I'm on y'alls' side anyway.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:58:10 AM EDT
as usual, there's always good info and discussion here at AR15.com on this subject. My dept. still utilizes 9mm subguns (H&K/Colt) and have not jumped totally on the 223 carbine trend as of yet. Tac team members still carry their gear on duty when working in uniform patrol, etc. Is it almost universal now that most agencies now replacing their 9mm subguns with 223 carbine? I'm involved in testing starting this week with a suppressed upper (Gemtech Talon SD) for our Colts, and will be using 147gr subsonic as well as 115gr ammunition. Are we the lone rangers here? Unbelieveably, we have a wide assortment of individual officers who carry the following: S&W 5906-9mm, S&W 66-357, H&K 45, Glock 40, and Glock 45. I would think that a standard sidearm and caliber would be the preferred arrangement, but it is not. This is probably due to administrators making many of the decisions based on budget and other associated "business" type decisions - unfortunate...Anyway, I'd like to hear some of your views with regards to deployment of 9mm vs. 223 in this "carbine" role.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 12:21:15 PM EDT
I probably should have added to my above post that my individual views are based on doing warrant work, which is usually close and personal, and many times in confined spaces with low light conditions being the norm. When things happen in this environment that are life threatening, there seems to be one thing that is universal and that is that every situation is different and unique and never a standard. I seems to me that if working traditional patrol work or in western states with wide open spaces, the 223 carbine would be my preferred weapon for a long arm. My views are usually within the confines of homes, always with a multitude of walls, furniture, trash, and other items about. When its a potentially high threat warrant, and with a 2 man team, one trusted parter with a subgun gives me a better feeling when we go in. It's the 223 vs. 9mm which has me stumped. This is of couse, is assuming the SHTF, which has not happened to me individually thanks be to the Man upstairs......most officer shootings in my area over the last several years have come quickly and totally unexpectedly. The handgun training takes over, and the ability for the officer to survive and win the immediate scenario is what matters. I'm not a SWAT member, but I can tell you that when I call them for help, I just get the hell out of their way and let them do their stuff...and they have a multitude of tools to do just that...
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 1:53:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 7:27:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Burnsome-: Anyway, I'd like to hear some of your views with regards to deployment of 9mm vs. 223 in this "carbine" role.
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like they say in the commercials, "that's a tuffy" personally, i prefer the .223 carbine for versatility and range, yes range. if i have to take a shot at someone firing at me from inside an abandoned house on the second floor(true story) from approx 75 yds away behind my vehicle. i would definately like the .223, but yes, personally, i feel that a pistol caliber carbine would be adequate for more situations. i don't know as much about ammo, like bill jordan said, "hell, i just shoot 'em". but carbines can handle the same ammo in hotter loadings and use the PO's handgun ammo in a pinch. my .0000000000000000002
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 4:33:02 PM EDT
i work in DETROIT. can you guess what i carry in the trunk? M-60 with 30 cans of Ammo?
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 4:45:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By so2315: i work in DETROIT. can you guess what i carry in the trunk? M-60 with 30 cans of Ammo?
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god do i wish!!!!!
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