Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 1/27/2002 8:44:22 AM EDT
I am interested in possibly getting a C&R FFL. Anyone have any horror stories related to getting one? I realize the risk of scrutiny by the BATF. It seems to be a great way of collecting C&R's while avoiding middleman costs. Any info on the downside would be appreciated. I know that sometimes it's simply not worth the risk of trouble to save a few bucks. Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 12:16:16 PM EDT
Should be no downside - just keep your books straight and don't try to act like a dealer. C&R is for collecting, not buying guns for your buddies, too. ATF cannot inspect your house with a C&R, and if they want to look at your books, you can do it down at their offices instead of in your home, unless they get a warrant because they suspect you of dealing instead of collecting.
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 1:00:49 PM EDT
Hey Circuts, How would one go about getting rid of something they ordered in and decided, maybe right away maybe down the road, that it is something they didn't want anymore. Could you sell it to a friend for cost. Save the bill of sale to show you didn't sell for a profit and therefore not "dealing." I don't have a C&R. But the thought has crossed my mind. And sometimes I buy stuff I can't live without and find it isn't what I thought it would be. Ya' know? [;)]
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 1:11:05 PM EDT
The purpose behind the C&R is collecting. The ATF recognizes that one will sell and trade firearms from time to time in order to improve the collection, so that is ok. What is absolutely a no-no is to engage in the business of selling firearms for profit. That prohibition applies equally to non-licensed individuals as well as Class 7 (C&R) licensees. The key is whether there is an ongoing enterprise that is profit motivated. An occasional sale such as many of us have made, even at a profit, is not "dealing" in firearms. If you want more info (I don't have references to authority for the above at the moment), go to the ATF website...there are some excellent FAQ's there. Also, www.cruffler.com has a wealth of Class 7 info along with an archive of past mailings from the alphabet soup squad. ~nut
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 1:16:21 PM EDT
BTW, I was just looking at the original topic and thought I should say that I have been a Class 7 lic'ee for about a year and have no horror stories to report either personally or from others I spoken with. On the other hand, there simply is nothing like having the mailman/UPS deliver guns to your doorstep! No 4473, no BS, nothing. It just comes to your front door just like the good ole days. OMT, the very first time I put my C-7 to use was in making a purchase from Brownells, which gives C&R holders the same discount as dealers. I saved TWICE the cost of my FFL in discounts on that one order. Nice additional perk, I think. Hope this helps. Good luck and enjoy being a cruffler if you decide to get your license! ~Nut
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 1:38:42 PM EDT
Thanks. That was kinda' the way I was thinking...but check out my signature line. Sometimes it even applies to me. [:D]
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 8:14:14 PM EDT
No such thing as a class 7, 45nut. Type 07, yes - but classes are for SOT, only go from 1-6, and 4-6 are no longer used.
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 8:26:06 PM EDT
Question regarding C&R: What's the legality of getting the C&R FFL for the purpose of buying yourself nifty new toys for your own use...not necessarily for buying the NIB '98 Mauser or other "collectibles" ... To me, new AR's and the like are my collectibles...but they get used, not sit in a display case.
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 6:02:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle: Question regarding C&R: What's the legality of getting the C&R FFL for the purpose of buying yourself nifty new toys for your own use...not necessarily for buying the NIB '98 Mauser or other "collectibles" ... To me, new AR's and the like are my collectibles...but they get used, not sit in a display case.
View Quote
Fan of TBR, guns that are eligible for C&R purchase are either anything 50 years or older, and guns that are listed on the ATF's C&R list. List does include some NFA items. You can link to the list through [url]www.cruffler.com[/url]. ATF will also send you the list if you call 'em and ask. Guns that are not C&R eligible can't be purchased with a C&R license...you need to go to your dealer and get'em as usual. -hanko
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 10:50:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2002 12:00:28 PM EDT by lpspinner]
I believe a C&R is a Type 03 FFL, Type 01 FFL is the one to become a dealer. [i]Thanks Circuits for the typo.[/i] Here is the ATF's FAQ's for C&R's... [url]www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm[/url] The Firearms Curios or Relics List booklet can be ordered from the ATF for free and/or viewed online at.... [url]www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm[/url] While I'm at it, The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618 is viewable online at.... [url]www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm[/url] The downside to a C&R, you need a higher line of credit of your credit cards, more storage area for your toys, more money for the various types of ammo you'll need and if you're married...a marriage counselor wouldn't hurt either. [}:D] Other then that, it's the next best thing to sliced cheese. Maybe in about 50 years or so, an AR-50 will become C&R eligble. [50] Have fun!
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 11:23:49 AM EDT
C&R is Type 03 - Class 3 is a SOT classification for an NFA dealer, and requires a dealer or mfg FFL (Type 10, 07, 02 or 01).
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 11:13:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Circuits: C&R is Type 03 - Class 3 is a SOT classification for an NFA dealer, and requires a dealer or mfg FFL (Type 10, 07, 02 or 01).
View Quote
Since we are pointing out things for clarity... :-) A type 7 with SOT is a Class 2 manufacturer. A type 1 with SOT is a Class 3 dealer. The above is from memory. So what is a type 1 & 7 with a SOT called? :-) mark
Link Posted: 1/29/2002 12:32:45 PM EDT
Type 10, 7, 2 or 1 with a Class 3 is a Class 3 dealer. In the case of a 7, they're also manufacturers, but can't manufacture NFA items. I'm not sure how you classify a 10 with a Class 3 - since they can manufacture destructive devices (which are NFA) but I don't believe can manufacture machineguns, silencers, short-barrel or AOW. The cost of a Type 10 is so much more than an 07/C2 that I never even considered it, so haven't researched that aspect as yet.
Link Posted: 1/29/2002 1:48:51 PM EDT
Other than becoming poor from buying so many rifles, the only downside I've seen others mention is that you have to mail a copy of the application to the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in your area. Depending on how anti-gun your local police department is, this can be anywhere from a nonissue to setting yourself up for some major harrassment. After seeing the way my local sheriff's office treats FFL's (regular dealers, that is), I've decided it's worth paying a little more to buy from a local dealer than deal with them.z
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 12:27:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Circuits: Type 10, 7, 2 or 1 with a Class 3 is a Class 3 dealer. In the case of a 7, they're also manufacturers, but can't manufacture NFA items. I'm not sure how you classify a 10 with a Class 3 - since they can manufacture destructive devices (which are NFA) but I don't believe can manufacture machineguns, silencers, short-barrel or AOW. The cost of a Type 10 is so much more than an 07/C2 that I never even considered it, so haven't researched that aspect as yet.
View Quote
A type 7 can pay the Class 2 manufacturer SOT (tax code 62 or 72) and are documented as a Class 2 manufacturer. They get to make all the goodies, other than DD. A type 1 can become a Class 3 dealer (tax code 63) by paying the Class 3 fee. From what I can understand, the Class 10 deals with DD only. You still need the others and SOT to deal with the non-DD stuff. A good friend has the type 10 and plays with cannons among other things. It is tempting, but the money returned is not worth it in my case. Sincerely, Mark Buda Triple Break Products Voice: (603) 424-0923 FAX: (603) 429-0479 Email: buda@TripleBreakProducts.com Web: www.TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 12:09:46 PM EDT
budam: A Type 10 or Type 7 can choose to pay either Class 3 (dealer) or Class 2 SOT (mfg). If they only pay Class 3, they're an NFA dealer, but a Title 1 (and/or DD for Type 10) manufacturer. A 'dealer FFL' Type 1, Type 2, and whatever DD dealer is (Type 9?) can only become a Class 3 (dealer) SOT.
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 8:59:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Circuits: budam: A Type 10 or Type 7 can choose to pay either Class 3 (dealer) or Class 2 SOT (mfg). If they only pay Class 3, they're an NFA dealer, but a Title 1 (and/or DD for Type 10) manufacturer. A 'dealer FFL' Type 1, Type 2, and whatever DD dealer is (Type 9?) can only become a Class 3 (dealer) SOT.
View Quote
Good points. I went back and looked up the form. The MGDB ha an interesting paragraph (pg 3-4 bottom left paragraph), "Typically a Type 10 will pay the Class 2 manufacturer tax, but if so desired could pay a Class 3 dealer SOT." Why not a Class 2 manufacturer SOT? Type 9 is a DD dealer. mark
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 10:18:46 PM EDT
The why of Class 3 vs Class 2 is that you must be a licensed manufacturer of some sort to be a Class 2 manufacturer (hence Type 10 and Type 7 can get Class 2). Since Type 10 and Type 7 also allow the licensee to act as a dealer, they are free to choose Class 3 instead of Class 2 if they don't wish to engage in NFA manufacture. As to whay a manufacturer would actually choose Class 3 over Class 2, I couldn't say. There is a price difference in that Class 2 is $1000/yr, but only if the manufacturer does more than $500k book business a year - otherwise Class 2 is a reduced rate of $500/yr. I wonder if a Type 6 (ammunition manufacturer) can get a Class 2? :)
Top Top