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Posted: 10/1/2001 4:26:24 AM EDT
I was at a gun show this weekend and I bought a post ban lower receiver. I asked the dealer to install a "BATF legal fixed telestyle stock" on the lower for me. The dealer said no problem and put a stock on for me. As I was leaving the gun show, I realized the delaer put a collapsable stock on. I went back to the dealer, and he told me that to make it legal all I had to do was drill a hole through the lever that lifts the pin to collapse the stock, and put a sheet metal screw in, so I am not able to lift the lever to collapse the stock. However, after thinking about this last night, I don't know if that will make me legal or not. Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Brad
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 5:28:53 AM EDT
I doubt that's legal. Too easily converted back. The ones you buy are pinned in place. Do you have a full length buffer in the stock? That prevents it from being collapsed. Some guys here have pinned the stock and used JB Weld I think ATF is going to want that to be permenant
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 5:32:41 AM EDT
I was thinking that screwing it in place was too easy of a fix. The buffer in not full length either. I may have to buy a new stock to be safe.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 7:21:01 AM EDT
I bought a nice small recoil pad, extended the stock all the way, poured some liquid nails in there, let it dry then covered the hole with the recoil pad. Definitely permanent and definitely fixed. However I would recommend a black epoxy next time.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 7:34:57 AM EDT
If the screw is welded in, it would probably be considered permanent. Let's get real here, it only takes a couple of minutes to switch off a permanent stock to a collapsible stock.
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 2:50:32 PM EDT
If someone were to use a full length buffer, Do you think that would be enough to make it legal?
Link Posted: 10/1/2001 8:09:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2001 6:59:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Brad76: I was thinking that screwing it in place was too easy of a fix. The buffer in not full length either. I may have to buy a new stock to be safe.
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I have a almost new A2 stock with buffer tube / buffer / spring. I will trade you if you want it? medcop
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 2:59:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2001 2:54:56 PM EDT by big_guy]
do you think you could "fix" the stock in a position between fully open & fully closed, and still remain legal? what about leaving the last 2-3 holes functional on six position lower? also is there any difference to the BATF between a "adjustable" stock, and a "tele-stock"?
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 5:01:28 PM EDT
One thing you could do, is to buy a adjustable aluminum stock, find the desired length, then have it welded in place. I would weld it all the way around, then remove any extra parts like the lever for adjusting the length. You would never be able to adjust it then. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 11:30:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 12:25:25 AM EDT
I've been noodling a solution for this one out for a while now, as my post ban 9mm carbine needs a stock shorter than fully opened. And, I want to do it myself. Call me crazy[:D] I have a standard collapsible fiberlite stock, and I have devised a pretty good plan that I want to share with you...feel free to poke holes in it or make suggestions- First, decide which position you want the stock fixed in. I picked the position just one notch from fully open on my 4-pos stock. Degrease the channel on the underside of the buffer tube(a little solvent works great) then, in the channel of the buffer tube, full the entire channel with Mega Steel, or Plastic Steel (the two part steel based epoxy that comes in a stick, costs about $3). Work with hands unti pliable, then fill the positioning holes and channel full of it, leaving the hole you want the the pin to sit in open up to the edge of the channel-sticking an appropriately sized peice of dowel in that hole keeps it nice and round, as well as open. This epoxy has about the consitancy of stiff clay, so leaving the hole clear should'nt be difficult because of runny-ness, you just don't want to fool around, work it till the two are mixed, and get it in place before it sets. Might also want to test the the stock's pin fits in the hole you have left in the epoxy... Note-The exposed epoxy in the tube channel will be a light grey, so if you want it black, make sure you color it. Black paint is a fine touch up here, and yes, this is a good reason to make sure that the epoxy is smooth and flush. Other than this one hole, correcponding with the metal hole in the tube the entire movement channel should now be flush with the lip of the channel. Thus, this stock only has ONE position, in any other place on the stock, the stock cannto lock in place. Thus, it is almost as if the stock never had but one position on it's channel. Now, we're not done, but this does keep the ATF from claiming that you could move the stock to another position-all of them positions are gone under some tough epoxy. Gone, as in you would have to take a chisel to it to make it come out-tough stuff. cont-
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 12:26:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2001 12:46:53 AM EDT by Juggernaut]
Con't- Now comes the complicated part, involving red(242 or 262) loctite, the slow acting(important) adhesive. Large enough bottles can be found at auto parts stores, since you're already going there to get the plastic steel. Once the epoxy is hardened fully(under an hour), pull down on the stock lever and slide the tube into the stock, in some other position than the one chosen open hole, thus forcing the spring loaded pin fully out. Now that you have the pin forced out to it's full length by the tube, take this opportunity to unscrew the nut from the extended bolt, apply red loctite to both surfaces, and locktite that baby in place, not a using dab as you would on on a screw you might want to remove, but really thoroughly. Make sure you get the screw back on the bolt where it was before. IIRC, it takes 20 minutes to set, and then you can move on to the next step. Take the stock back off of the tube, and take a squin into the stock. That pin sticking up is your target, your objective to be to completely coat it with loctite. Also, coat the one open hole in the tube with loctite as well, ensuring that when you get them together, the metal of the tube will bond with the metal of the pin. Since this is the last time you will see these two apart[;)], you might as well coat the channel of the stock(not the channel of the tube, part of it will be extended and you don't want to apply it where it might show), and heck why not the entire inside if you've got eough loctite. keep in mind that the modern stock have closer tolerances between tube and stock, but if you cant get a layer of loctite in between the two, you're not half trying. Work quickly, because even though you have 24 hours before it sets completely, I have noticed that it takes a partial set quicker, and it's a good idea to have whatever you're connecting together ASAP. Now, carefully pull down on the lever again(causing some of the loctite on the pin to ooze off, but that's ok), and slide the stock part way on from the FRONT of the tube(you'll se why)-again, not quite to the pin hole yet. Now, while the lever is down, apply loctite to the inside of the lever where it meets the stock-both front and back. Once it's applied, slide the stock further forward onto the tube, until the pin meets the loctited hole in both epoxy and tube with a satisfying squelch. Once it sets, that pin is not gonna come back out, to say nothing of the rest of the stock and tube's new connections. Take a gander down the rear of the stock now-think you with a small probe or brush, or some one with dainty little fingers could aply loctite all the way around the rear of the tube, were it meets the stock? Sure, you could! There may already be a fine bead between stock and tube inside(that's why you pull it on from the front, so any excess loctite is pushed out inside the stock, not oozing out of the front of the stock onto the exposed tube). cont.-#&+@@ character limit!
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 12:34:02 AM EDT
Doesn't Locktite eat plastic? will it eat holes in the fiberite? john
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 12:55:17 AM EDT
Cont' Give the loctited parts their 20 minutes to set,(I would add a couple of hours to be sure, air can't reach inside the tube all that well) and you should be ready. With the pin held in place to both tube and epoxy by loctite, and the lever fastened to the stock as well, added to the fact that the entire inside of the stock is irrevocably married to the outside of the tube, I dare you to get this sucker to collapse, and even if you could without breaking it(since the pin is not going anywhere), you'd still have to chip away at the steel epoxy to make the stock stay in place anywhere else on the tube-which is hardly an 'assembled' condition for a stock. Juggernaut
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:01:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2001 1:13:45 AM EDT by Juggernaut]
Originally Posted By hondajohn: Doesn't Locktite eat plastic? will it eat holes in the fiberite? john
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Umm, good question. I was just on the Loctite site to find cure times, and it don't say, butt I could have missed it. It very well could, though. It would be fine in the tube hole and on the pin, as well as on the pin nut and threads, but I might have to find a substitute for the fiberlite parts, if it does indeed melt plastic. I lost the little info sheet that came with my tube of #242... I'll have to keep looking. The main advantage of using loctite is that it doesn't bond instantly, you have time to get the stock onto the tube, the pin into the hole, and the lever to drop back in place. Does anyone here know how Loctite would affect the stock? If badly, what could be a substitute for the plastic parts(still would use loctite on the metal)? Acrylics that bond instantly are no good for this job, it has to be a delyed cure adhesive with a low viscosity...I just wouldn't know what else to use that has those these characteristics. Juggernaut
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 1:18:06 PM EDT
FOLLOW-UP! Ok, Loctite WILL eat up the plastic of your fiberlite stock. So, in my instuctions where I suggested using Loctite on ANYTHING besides junctions at the pin threads and nut, and the pin and tube notch, forget it. We have to find something else, a low viscosity adhesive, VERY secure, strong bond, and a delayed cure(heck, 30 seconds or so should do it...plenty of time). Any of you have any suggestions? Juggernaut
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 3:37:42 PM EDT
Maybe "liquid nails" would work. has any one here used it before, what do you guys think?
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 5:16:54 PM EDT
You good try a 2 hour epoxy. Should bond to both the metal and plastic parts.
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 5:29:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By big_guy: Maybe "liquid nails" would work. has any one here used it before, what do you guys think?
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Hmmm... How liquid is "liquid nails"? It's a good idea, if it's not instant bonding, but it's gonna have to be pretty liquid to get an appreciable amount between stock and tube. If it's fluid enough though, that may do it. I may go pick up some tomorrow-I'll let you know how this project goes... Juggernaut Juggernaut
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:56:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:50:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: BATF has rejected all previous uses of chemical adhesives in the effort to make collapsable stocks "non-collapsable." You'd need a custom buffer tube, and you'd need to blind-pin the plastic stock to the tube, using at least 4 pins. -Troy
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Pinning the stock, I can see, but what "customization" has to be done to a buffer tube? I can't just have the stock pinned by KKF? I'm sure as heck not going to go buy another tube and cut and reweld it. Is this judgement on the basis only of what the ATF has accepted so far, or have they actually rejected stocks that are 4 place pinned in place, have no adjustment notches, but do have a shorter than normal tube? I mean c'mon, There's no such thing as a mid length buffer and spring to match a mid length cut tube. I'm planning on using the short tube, is there no possible way to do that? Juggernaut
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 1:35:56 PM EDT
Just leave the adj stock on it! " No officer, that is not an illegal collapsible stock, that is a expandable stock. I never collapse it!" ;)
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 4:29:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 6:17:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 2:43:43 PM EDT by Juggernaut]
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By Juggernaut: ..or have they actually rejected stocks that are 4 place pinned in place, have no adjustment notches, but do have a shorter than normal tube?
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Yes, they have, actually. That was exactly what several manufacturers originally submitted. The reason I said "custom tube" is because you want a mid-length stock, and no mid-length tubes exist. If you had one or made one, you could do it. -Troy
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Well, crap.[:(] Let's see, the tube's made of Aluminum, right? Any way you could permanatly extend the base of it? Surely there's a way of permenantly attaching another solid cylinder of aluminum to the base of the buffer tube. Something as permanant as a weld(you can tell I'm no engineer), some sort of metal attachment process-whatever they use on aluminum backpack frames...Because just extending the tube with a cylinder of aluminum of the same dia. as the tube would not be that bad. Can someone shed some light? Juggernaut UPDATE! OK, so it's called Aluminum welding(duh!), and our shop isn't set up for it(Argon and all that), though I know a machine shop that is. Will go and buy collapsible buttstock tube, cut to length, have welded to rear of existing tube, so that it is then flush with the rear of the buttstock. Ta-da! Permanent custom mid-length tube! Now, explain "blindpinning". Just drill hole halfway though stock and tube channel, drop in pin, and then what? Or what? Help(again). Juggernaut
Link Posted: 11/18/2001 12:19:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 1:07:20 PM EDT
I asked American Spirit Arms about this sometime back (had forgotten about it till now). They told me to call Walt Holder @ 1-888-486-5487, and that he could do this ATF legal.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:48:30 PM EDT
Juggernaut, when you get this finished could you post some pics and information on how you did it?
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 8:35:00 AM EDT
Why don't you sell it and then buy youself a legal stock that looks like the collapsible one?
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:39:53 PM EDT
because we dont want a full length stock.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 12:41:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2001 12:36:08 PM EDT by TNRonin]
Brad, how short are you wanting to make it? Enough to clear a vest? I have a non-collapsing version. I think that there is about a two inch area that you can move it to. I would have to look. Would you be interested in a swap? I'm really interested in that A2 stock that was offered. Maybe I can work around to that. LOL Edited for correct person.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 12:52:47 PM EDT
Here is an idea. Once you get a non-collapsable stock, why can't you take the stock to a welding shop. Have them shorten the tube at the end by the desired length. Then reweld the end again. You will have to ensure they take the meat from the end. This way they only have to weld the "disc" back in place. On the stock that I have, there is an allen head bolt in place, it is screwed into the ridge that keeps the stock from twisting. All they would have to do is redrill and tap that hole. Thus you would have a shorter tube, but it would extend to the end of the stock. You could go longer but not shorter. I imagine you could go to a shop and get the correct length tubing and have it threaded then knock a hole in the correct location for attaching the stock. That might be the easiest thing for you to do. Just take the tube to the local shop and tell them you want it duplicated but in a different length.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 1:01:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 1:25:23 PM EDT
I guess I was fortunate. When I got the stock from ASA it came with a collapsable stock buffer. Additionally, wouldn't there be a little play, depending on how short you want to make it? And are short buffers and springs not available? No flames intended.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:28:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:04:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2001 6:58:20 PM EDT by big_guy]
The problem is that [red]most[/red] of the current "fixed" stocks use a full-length buffer tube designed to use a "rifle" buffer. You can't cut anything off that tube, or the buffer won't fit.
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are there any that do not? I thought that full length buffer had to be used. If not why cant the stock just be blind pinned in place, or welded?
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 12:05:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 2:01:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 10:52:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 2:35:44 PM EDT
has it been established that it is legal & OK w/BATF to convert a collapsable stock to a fixed state?
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