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Posted: 8/5/2001 4:47:53 AM EDT
I know about the requirements for an AR pisto land the 50oz limit. My question is this. In NC you need a pistol permit to buy a pistol. No permit required for long arms. (The pistol Permit is just for the backround check same as NICS) If I buy a stripped lower (say the new Cav-15 without buffer tube) without a pistol permit tha same as I would buy a Long arm can I build it into a pistol? Also a secondary question. other than weight what defines a pistol? Is there a total length it must fall under? can it have a stock? max barrel lenght? Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 9:57:55 AM EDT
"designed to be fired with one hand" defines a pistol. This means no shoulder stock and no 2nd front grip. The 94 bill also adds the 50oz weight limitation, and defines mag outside the pistol grip, forward barrel shroud or handguard, threaded muzzle for flash suppressor or silencer and some other stuff as evil features. A pistol based on an AR-15 lower receiver and made after the ban has the magazine outside the pistol grip as its one feature. There is no length minimum or maximum for a pistol or a pistol barrel. It cannot be made with a stock, but having been made as a pistol, you can put a 16" or longer barrel on it, and then add a stock while that longer barrel is on it.
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 10:48:08 AM EDT
Sure you could add a stock to it later (16" barrel). At that point it is a rifle, but you can not convert a rifle into a pistol.
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 11:50:51 AM EDT
Actually, Ekie - if it starts off as a pistol, you can go back and forth. While mounting a stock and long barrel, it is a stocked, rifle-length pistol. With a rifle, you can't go down to a pistol configuration, though, without registering it as a short-barreled rifle. Once a rifle, always a rifle. Once a pistol, always a pistol.
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 5:23:41 PM EDT
Kind of suprised here circuits. Okay, here we go... "Actually, Ekie - if it starts off as a pistol, you can go back and forth. While mounting a stock and long barrel, it is a stocked, rifle-length pistol." Sure you can make a rifle out of a pistol, simply because there is no law against it. Once it is a rifle you can not make it a pistol without registering it as a NFA weapon (SBR or AOW). Please see 26 U SC section 5845(a)(4), in short is says a rifle that has been modified to less then 26" is a NFA weapon. There is not an exception for rifles that used to be pistols. "With a rifle, you can't go down to a pistol configuration, though, without registering it as a short-barreled rifle." Yes that is correct. Once it is a rifle you can not go back with out registering. "Once a rifle, always a rifle." Yes unless registerd. "Once a pistol, always a pistol." No law against making a rifle out of a pistol.
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 6:05:55 PM EDT
[quote[ Sure you can make a rifle out of a pistol, simply because there is no law against it. Once it is a rifle you can not make it a pistol without registering it as a NFA weapon (SBR or AOW). Please see 26 U SC section 5845(a)(4), in short is says a rifle that has been modified to less then 26" is a NFA weapon. There is not an exception for rifles that used to be pistols. [/quote] I like to see how the feds enforce that.... how would they know if that receiver has been a rifle? are they going to spy on every ar owners 24/7?? I dont think so... Besides especially if you got the lower by itself (not complete rifle mind you...) theres no paper that say that it has been a rifle... besides I think the feds got better things to do than to break down someone's door over some AR converted into a pistol... they got bigger fish to fry (like those people making DD's and bombs...) Its almost like pyrotechnics, it is illegal for common folks to make their own firework, but the feds usually dont care unless you are making M-80's (which is a DD) since they got better things to do than to bust someone for liking to watch colored fires... PS: The above only applies when you dont get in trouble with your firearm... if you like say killed someone with it then the feds will get all over you... Cops are a b*tch sometimes so if you are going to carry firearms around (especially AR-15's) in your car keep them cased and locked, and use your pistol for CCW's. Be especially careful if you are the "undesirables" (that means Teens, blacks (in CA that is), hispanics, and among other things)
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 6:24:25 PM EDT
Well, ah, hmmm, well you see on the 4473 it asks for type, ie rifle, pistol, revolver, etc. On a AR lower it would be noted as rifle unless you asked the dealer to note it as a pistol. On the lowers I sell I ask the customer if he wants it noted as a pistol. If he makes a rifle or pistol it is no matter. If it says rifle then he is stuck.
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 8:36:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ekie: Well, ah, hmmm, well you see on the 4473 it asks for type, ie rifle, pistol, revolver, etc. On a AR lower it would be noted as rifle unless you asked the dealer to note it as a pistol. On the lowers I sell I ask the customer if he wants it noted as a pistol. If he makes a rifle or pistol it is no matter. If it says rifle then he is stuck.
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Nice try, Ekie - but putting a stock and long barrel on a pistol does not make into a rifle by the same logic... It's still "papered" as a pistol. There are removable stock kits and 16" barrel kits for Thompson/Center - ATF ruled that inclusion of those together, even with a short barrel, does not constitute an illegal short barreled rifle. Similarly, you can buy 16" barrels and shoulder stocks for a 1911 .45 pistol - assembling it does not make it a rifle forever. Once a pistol, still a pistol.
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 9:24:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ekie: Well, ah, hmmm, well you see on the 4473 it asks for type, ie rifle, pistol, revolver, etc. On a AR lower it would be noted as rifle unless you asked the dealer to note it as a pistol. On the lowers I sell I ask the customer if he wants it noted as a pistol. If he makes a rifle or pistol it is no matter. If it says rifle then he is stuck.
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Well, thats why you get the lower by person-to person.... either that or finish a 80%... Besides, do you really think the government is going to try and check you out at a range to see what it's noted as? Only problem I see is if that gun is involved in a crime (but then you'd be screwed, NFA or not NFA)
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 9:59:52 PM EDT
Perhaps you are unaware that the term handgun and rifle are defined by federal law. You will find the definition of such in 18 USC section 921 (a)(7) for rifle and 921(a)(29). If you put a butt stock and a long barrel on your AR-15 pistol you now have a rifle. This is hardly a subject of debate, and I am frankly shocked I have to point out such basic concepts. "There are removable stock kits and 16" barrel kits for Thompson/Center - ATF ruled that inclusion of those together, even with a short barrel, does not constitute an illegal short barreled rifle." Highly misrepresentative of what transpired. ATF prosecuted and convicted a man for owning a Thompson/Contender short barrel, frame and butt stock for possession of a unregistered SBR. There was no evidence that this was ever assembled as a SBR, and the US Supreme Court over turned the conviction. Similarly, you can buy 16" barrels and shoulder stocks for a 1911 .45 pistol - assembling it does not make it a rifle forever. You are correct, but once you have made a pistol into a rifle you can not convert it into a pistol. It would be a violation of 26 USC section 5845(a)(4). "Once a pistol, still a pistol" Catchy but that statement has no basis in law, ruling or regulation, please refer to 18 USC section 921 (a)(7).
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 10:21:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rahimiv: ... Besides, do you really think the government is going to try and check you out at a range to see what it's noted as? Only problem I see is if that gun is involved in a crime (but then you'd be screwed, NFA or not NFA)
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So we can violate 26 U SC section 5845(a)(4) simply because the likely hood of prosecution is slim to none?
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 10:33:57 PM EDT
if i decide to build my own AR15 pistol on a post-ban lower, that means i can't have a flash suppressor.?
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 10:47:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ekie: So we can violate 26 U SC section 5845(a)(4) simply because the likely hood of prosecution is slim to none?
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Why keep a law that is downright oppressive and unconstitutional, not to mention a violation of rights?? I keep hearing people moaning about how NFA is unconstitutional, and how that ban on AW is bad too, but then when someone shows a post ban gun with flash supressors and stuff, or shows a rifle illegally converted to a pistol, they go around saying "hey that gun's illegal!" or something like that... The way I see it is that if its hard to enforce the law, then why keep it?? I mean if you borrow your friend's photoshop and copies it and uses it, that IS a felony and can land you in jail for a LONG time... but people do it all the time in fact they download photoshop from warez sites. Reason they dont go to jail because they dont go around selling burned copies of photoshop everywhere. Well, a semi-auto weapon converted to fully auto is easy to catch since people will see you shooting full auto, or if you use it in a crime. My point is that some of these laws, as long as you dont draw too much attention to yourself, I dont see how you can get in trouble... The government got too many people to deal with, they are not God, they cant see everything, even if they can they wont have the time and energy to pay attention to everyone of them. All they do is that they look for those high profile cases, like someone drawing too much attention to himself (like carrying AR-15 in the back of a truck visible to anyone, or shooting fully auto at a range with your illegally auto weapon). IMHO the reason government fearlessly passes these stupid laws because they EXPECT that we follow them! I have the feeling that if the government requires firearm registration, everyone will quietly register their gun, even though I have heard of people keep saying "I aint gonna register them!". Heck, people seem to quietly register their gun in Kalifornia... The point I am trying to make is, that if you are obedient to the government, then they have leverage over you... I do not trust the government, thats why I believe in the right to bear arm. I see it that if the government doesnt trust his citizen, by keeping secrets from us, what makes people think that we should trust them?
Link Posted: 8/5/2001 11:47:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ekie: Perhaps you are unaware that the term handgun and rifle are defined by federal law. You will find the definition of such in 18 USC section 921 (a)(7) for rifle and 921(a)(29). If you put a butt stock and a long barrel on your AR-15 pistol you now have a rifle. This is hardly a subject of debate, and I am frankly shocked I have to point out such basic concepts.
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I'm shocked to have to point out that federal law defines a short-barreled rifle as a rifle with a barrel of less than 16" or a weapon made from a rifle receiver, with a barrel of less than 16". By definition, a pistol receiver is NOT a rifle receiver, and simply having a barrel over 16" and a shoulder stock does not make the receiver into a rifle receiver.... Instead, the pistol receiver violates no law, by having a shoulder stock, so long as the barrel is over 16", thus not bringing it under the definition of an SBR for the purposes of NFA 1934. When the stock and longer barrel are removed, it reverts to being a pistol receiver. No law is violated by constructing a weapon with a barrel of less than 16" on a pistol receiver.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 9:27:17 AM EDT
Circuits Took me awhile to figure out what your misconception was that made your posts incomprehensible. For example; "I'm shocked to have to point out that federal law defines a short-barreled rifle as a rifle with a barrel of less than 16" or a weapon made from a rifle receiver, with a barrel of less than 16"." You see there is no legal definition of a "rifle receiver", or a "pistol receiver". If there was your posts would make sense. 18 USC section 921(a) contains the legal definitions in federal law. Contained within are no entries for a "rifle receiver" or a "pistol receiver", please refer to 18 USC section 921 (a)(7) for a rifle, 921(a)(29) for a pistol, and 921(a)(8) for a SBR. rahimiv Okay, so why debate law at all? ADTECHARMS The answer is no, the resulting firearm would be a violation 26 USC section 5845(a)(4) which in short says that you can not make a pistol out of a rifle. coltar1five I can not think of any workable way to build a AR-15 type pistol with a flash hider on a post-ban receiver.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:26:28 PM EDT
ADTECHARMS Good news, got to digging deeper. Got this letter off of James Bardwell's web site. It in short says you can make a pistol out of a "rifle type receiver" that has never been assembled into a rifle. October 1, 1992 Firearms Technical Branch Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 650 Mass. Ave., NW Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sirs: The Greensboro, NC BATF Compliance Office suggested that I write to you for information on the following point. I am interested on whether it is possible to have a commercially manufactured rifle receiver changed to be legally considered to be a handgun receiver, and how this can be done. The Compliance Office said that this might be possible via a "Letter of Determination", but advised me to write to you about the criteria and procedures. For example, if a person has a rifle receiver and wishes to have it built into a rifle-caliber handgun suitable for steel silhouette target shooting, comparable to the bolt action Remington XP-100 handgun. I understand that the serial number of this receiver is recorded as being for a rifle. Could this person have this receiver's serial number considered to be a handgun receiver? If so, what procedures and paperwork would be necessary. Sincerely, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Oct 29 1992 Dear Mr. XXXXX: This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle type receiver. 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA), defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and pay the applicable $200 making tax. If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity. We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may be of any further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely your, (signed) Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch coltar1five You could have a flash hider if you fixed the mag permanently to the receiver.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 8:19:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 8:40:17 PM EDT
Yes things have changed, but in many ways things are always the same.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 9:08:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: Note that the date of this letter is 1992, two years BEFORE the 1994 Assault Weapons ban. Things have changed. -Troy
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ill scan my letter i got in 2000 bacsicly says u can BUT with the 94 CB its next to impossible to get the weight down.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:31:05 PM EDT
OK so lets say i only want to build a .223 pistol from a stripped "new" lower, what can i have for a barrel lenth and should i have the ffl dealer mark it as a pistol on the form? I found a very nice 7 1/2 upper and would like to build a pistol out of it. can i put a car fixed closed stock on it? jim
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 6:57:17 PM EDT
oH Oh I better go put the rifle barrel back on my TC Encore! I wouldn't want to get caught with my registered pistol without its rifle ,,,no wait my rifle neveermind.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 8:37:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 9:36:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: Ok, try this: Could I build a pistol from a new AR reciever if I fix the magazine so it is not removable? If so, then would I not be able to get around the weight restrictions and have all the "evil features" I want?
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if u did it that way yes yes and yes also if u made it no longer semi automatic u wouldnint need to make the magazine fixed
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 7:14:37 PM EDT
Register it as a SBR on a Form-1, assemble as a pistol (weight does not factor in now as it is register as a SBR). Next week throw a stock on it and shoulder fire the rifle, it's still a SBR. Remember pre lower can be built to pre or post rules, BUT post lower has to comply to post AW rules
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