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Posted: 1/12/2022 8:04:45 AM EDT
[#1]
It’s interesting that they are pushing the narrative the YOU should have known…….. following and pulling for you! Thanks for the update!
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Posted: 1/12/2022 8:18:16 AM EDT
[#2]
Tag and I can't believe this is still going. Sorry OP!
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Posted: 1/12/2022 12:28:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Why would you ask for utility bills for water? I doubt any publicly provided utility would be enough of a difference to stop you from purchasing a home so you'd just deal with it.
We were suprised when we moved into a community well/septic house that it was $90 a month (at least twice what we'd expect, if not 3 times) and it still wouldn't have stopped us had we known ahead of time. |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 12:37:43 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 1/12/2022 2:20:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s interesting that they are pushing the narrative the YOU should have known…….. following and pulling for you! Thanks for the update! The only document I have either found or been shown is a drawing revision from 2019 showing the 2" section as a "private line". It's not in the right place on the drawing, it's just a place holder. The drawing does not show the 3/4" line feeding the last 2 houses. Previous revisions are when it the main line was put in in 1964 and a the drawing was digitized in 1997. There is no legal documentation, no legal agreements between neighbors, no covenants, nothing on the deeds, nothing in the contract, nothing on the disclosure forms. |
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Posted: 1/13/2022 3:42:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Another tidbit i remember is having to explain that drawing that was last updated in 2019 (before that was 1997 and 1965) to the realtor's lawyer and having to show the seller's lawyer there was more in the appraisal report than he knew. I was sitting there feeling like I was the only one who did the reading. If they didn't feel embarrassed asking me to explain stuff for them, they need to quit law.
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Posted: 2/3/2022 8:23:03 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 2/3/2022 9:19:46 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another tidbit i remember is having to explain that drawing that was last updated in 2019 (before that was 1997 and 1965) to the realtor's lawyer and having to show the seller's lawyer there was more in the appraisal report than he knew. I was sitting there feeling like I was the only one who did the reading. If they didn't feel embarrassed asking me to explain stuff for them, they need to quit law. They knew. It's not their job to introduce evidence not in their favor. |
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Posted: 2/3/2022 10:23:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Holy crap!
Hoping this ends well for you Bro. Following for outcome. |
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Posted: 2/3/2022 2:23:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any updates? I think the appraiser we got to redo the appraisal with the water line situation known did his deposition yesterday or the day before. They are still trying to get dates for the previous owners. The judge agreed to move the trial date, so it looks like sometime in late summer. |
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Posted: 2/12/2022 2:08:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Can any lawyers in the house tell me what this means in laymen's terms?
From Here (J) The specification of items of information that must be disclosed in the property disclosure form as prescribed under division (D)(1) of this section does not limit or abridge, and shall not be construed as limiting or abridging, any obligation to disclose an item of information that is created by any other provision of the Revised Code or the common law of this state or that may exist in order to preclude fraud, either by misrepresentation, concealment, or nondisclosure in a transaction involving the transfer of residential real property. The disclosure requirements of this section do not bar, and shall not be construed as barring, the application of any legal or equitable defense that a transferor of residential real property may assert in a civil action commenced against the transferor by a prospective or actual transferee of that property. |
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Posted: 2/25/2022 8:19:24 AM EDT
[#12]
The water department was able to find the codes from when the house was built as well as supply the most recent codes prior to our buying of the property. Both say each building shall have its own tap and meter, both say plans must be approved by the water department review board, both say permits must be applied for. None of that happened.
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Posted: 3/24/2022 5:26:25 PM EDT
[#13]
OST
Very interesting stuff. |
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Posted: 4/17/2022 4:56:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Got an update from our attorney. The director of the water department confirmed the line doesn't meet any standard (either from the 1970s or now) and is, in fact, illegal. Haven't been able to get ahold of the original appraiser, yet.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:19:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Sounds like the noose is tightening. Who is this going to fuck? The previous owners, their real estate agent, the title company, the inspector, all of the above?
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Posted: 4/20/2022 6:47:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like the noose is tightening. Who is this going to fuck? The previous owners, their real estate agent, the title company, the inspector, all of the above? I don't think the inspector or the title company. There is no paperwork stating the situation anywhere, even at the water department, nor can it be found by an inspector, unless you go to the water department and specifically ask if there is a situation with the utility. Inside the house, it looks like a 3/4" branch feeder. Nothing in the interior plumbing is wrong. I think this is the original owner (who didn't do it legally), the previous owners (who made it worse by trenching across state property in violation of instructions, and didn't disclose it), the real estate agent who knew about it and didn't disclose it, and the real estate company. We'll see how it plays out. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 8:03:44 AM EDT
[#17]
No chance of the water dep't coming after you as the now-owner of this illegal water line?
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Posted: 4/20/2022 1:43:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No chance of the water dep't coming after you as the now-owner of this illegal water line? They haven't done anything about it for 30+ years. We didn't have a hand in installing it. Hell, I was 6 years old and on the other side of the state. I don't think they could make us do anything about it. The director of the water dept has been great and supplied any information we've asked for. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:47:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Are you all on the same meter still or have you made the other get their own
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Posted: 4/20/2022 11:20:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They haven't done anything about it for 30+ years. We didn't have a hand in installing it. Hell, I was 6 years old and on the other side of the state. I don't think they could make us do anything about it. The director of the water dept has been great and supplied any information we've asked for. That's good. Have heard too many horror stories about the county going after homeowners with unpermitted/illegal work done on the home but the work was done by a prior owner. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 1:43:01 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's good. Have heard too many horror stories about the county going after homeowners with unpermitted/illegal work done on the home but the work was done by a prior owner. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They haven't done anything about it for 30+ years. We didn't have a hand in installing it. Hell, I was 6 years old and on the other side of the state. I don't think they could make us do anything about it. The director of the water dept has been great and supplied any information we've asked for. That's good. Have heard too many horror stories about the county going after homeowners with unpermitted/illegal work done on the home but the work was done by a prior owner. The county health department told me I had to fix my septic system that had been illegally modified by a previous owner on the last house. That letter triggered my title insurance coverage to pay for most of the cost of a new $30K septic system. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 11:24:48 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The county health department told me I had to fix my septic system that had been illegally modified by a previous owner on the last house. That letter triggered my title insurance coverage to pay for most of the cost of a new $30K septic system. That would be interesting. I would say it would be more difficult in our situation because this system is across 3 property lines and has 5 houses on it. Who pays what? That would be difficult to answer. This isn't just on one property. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 4:49:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would be interesting. I would say it would be more difficult in our situation because this system is across 3 property lines and has 5 houses on it. Who pays what? That would be difficult to answer. This isn't just on one property. Your situation seems to be more complicated than mine was due to the other properties and layers of liability by the sellers and their agents etc. IIRC, your's is the only property that has an actual meter. In theory, everyone BUT you would be fucked by the county/water utility demanding that each house's system be made compliant with current regulations. Your repair would be a straight forward upgrade , and everyone else would be paying for easements/trenching new lines, new meters etc. Depending on their title and home owner's insurance , they may have to pay out of pocket, or it might be 100% covered. IIRC we had a $5k deductible, that started with having the tank pumped and inspected to determine the problem, and title insurance would pay a maximum of $25K for undisclosed issues that the govt demand we repair. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 8:11:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your situation seems to be more complicated than mine was due to the other properties and layers of liability by the sellers and their agents etc. IIRC, your's is the only property that has an actual meter. In theory, everyone BUT you would be fucked by the county/water utility demanding that each house's system be made compliant with current regulations. Your repair would be a straight forward upgrade , and everyone else would be paying for easements/trenching new lines, new meters etc. Depending on their title and home owner's insurance , they may have to pay out of pocket, or it might be 100% covered. IIRC we had a $5k deductible, that started with having the tank pumped and inspected to determine the problem, and title insurance would pay a maximum of $25K for undisclosed issues that the govt demand we repair. Opposite. The county meter is 3/4mi down the road and we're the last house on the line. The county has a 6" line and then terminates at the meter, then the people back in the day extended it with 2" pvc with 3/4" service branches for two of them and then the 2" PVC line runs directly into the third house. Right before the 3rd house, there is a 3/4" branch that comes off and feeds the last two houses. There is no shut-off valve out side our house until 2 properties up the line. There is no blow-off valve, so all the air in the line goes to our house. There is no account of any part of the line underground. Only what I've uncovered. The only drawing at the county building shows it as a "private line". The director of the water department confirmed it's both illegal and not up to code. They're trying to say we didn't do our due diligence and that its grandfathered in. County director says it's not grandfathered. Comes down to seller vs buyer responsibility, IMO. I have never heard of this situation so how were we to know to ask about it? |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 12:50:07 PM EDT
[#25]
I will note: update your replacement estimates. Pipe varies from stupidly expensive to not even available these days.
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:03:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will note: update your replacement estimates. Pipe varies from stupidly expensive to not even available these days. I have been getting updated quotes. Latest is around $122k. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:40:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Just wondering if you ended up moving into the house and if the pressure was 'normal'?
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Posted: 4/22/2022 3:09:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your situation seems to be more complicated than mine was due to the other properties and layers of liability by the sellers and their agents etc. IIRC, your's is the only property that has an actual meter. In theory, everyone BUT you would be fucked by the county/water utility demanding that each house's system be made compliant with current regulations. Your repair would be a straight forward upgrade , and everyone else would be paying for easements/trenching new lines, new meters etc. Depending on their title and home owner's insurance , they may have to pay out of pocket, or it might be 100% covered. IIRC we had a $5k deductible, that started with having the tank pumped and inspected to determine the problem, and title insurance would pay a maximum of $25K for undisclosed issues that the govt demand we repair. Damned good point. Have your neighbors contacted their title insurance companies now that the county has indicated that the water line is illegal? |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 5:10:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will note: update your replacement estimates. Pipe varies from stupidly expensive to not even available these days. Yup, big box store with existing delivery contracts are still reasonable but if you need anything special hold on when you hear the price. I just had to order some Schedule 80 PVC...it was about 8 times the price of the schedule 40 from the big box store... |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 6:43:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just wondering if you ended up moving into the house and if the pressure was 'normal'? We moved in 11/19. Been here since then. Seemed normal, until we figured out that when our neighbors are using water at the same time, or when we try to do 2 things with water, it goes WAY down. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 6:47:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damned good point. Have your neighbors contacted their title insurance companies now that the county has indicated that the water line is illegal? Haven't contacted them to let them know about the confirmed illegality, but they all know it was not up to code. No one has done anything about it. Not even the water department. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 7:09:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Haven't contacted them to let them know about the confirmed illegality, but they all know it was not up to code. No one has done anything about it. Not even the water department. IANA insurance guru but usually once you have been notified of a problem you have a limited time to file a claim with an insurance company. So, if the neighbors have a prayer of getting the title company to help defray the costs then they should act quickly. You can ask your attorney whether it would be better if the written notification came from you or from his law firm. |
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Posted: 5/24/2022 9:52:19 PM EDT
[#33]
...any May updates?
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Posted: 5/25/2022 7:01:30 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...any May updates? Depositions for the sellers scheduled for late June. No one from their side has been able to produce any documentation about this set-up. Nothing from the auditors office, records, the township, no certificate of occupancy, nothing. The only document out there is still the drawing I got from the water department showing a "private line" and only as a place holder because they don't know where it goes. I've been finding more and more articles and blog posts from law firms about disclosures. From what I've read, if a judge/jury throws this out, disclosure rules truly mean nothing, IMO. |
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Posted: 6/3/2022 7:55:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Update 6/3/22: Received a notice from our lawyers that the seller's realtor is being called to the floor at the State Licencing board at the end of the month.
An excerpt: "The investigation conducted in this matter revealed reasonable and substantial evidence of acts in violation of Chapter 4735 of the Ohio Revised Code." Goes on to talk about violations and misconduct as they relate to the Canons of Ethics of the Real Estate Industry. Getting spicy, IMO. |
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Posted: 6/3/2022 8:13:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Totally worth the wait.
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Posted: 6/4/2022 2:57:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Update 6/3/22: Received a notice from our lawyers that the seller's realtor is being called to the floor at the State Licencing board at the end of the month. An excerpt: "The investigation conducted in this matter revealed reasonable and substantial evidence of acts in violation of Chapter 4735 of the Ohio Revised Code." Goes on to talk about violations and misconduct as they relate to the Canons of Ethics of the Real Estate Industry. Getting spicy, IMO. That's GREAT for your case! It's sad these things move so slow hope for a positive resolution soon! Keep the updayes coming! |
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Posted: 6/4/2022 3:12:01 PM EDT
[#38]
OST
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Posted: 6/4/2022 3:22:50 PM EDT
[#39]
at what point does it become easier and cheaper to drill and install a well versus this insanity?
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Posted: 6/4/2022 5:00:23 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: at what point does it become easier and cheaper to drill and install a well versus this insanity? The disclosure said "public water" supply. One of the reasons I like this house was because it didn't have a well that was dependant on electricity. We're well past the point of the cost of a well, but the wait time for the approved county drillers was over a year, if at all. Insane is not telling prospective buyers about the situation when you were legally bound to do just that. They had a chance to make it right, even put it in writing to make it right, but then rescinded the offer for whatever reason, I still don't know. |
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Posted: 6/4/2022 5:12:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The disclosure said "public water" supply. One of the reasons I like this house was because it didn't have a well that was dependant on electricity. We're well past the point of the cost of a well, but the wait time for the approved county drillers was over a year, if at all. Insane is not telling prospective buyers about the situation when you were legally bound to do just that. They had a chance to make it right, even put it in writing to make it right, but then rescinded the offer for whatever reason, I still don't know. I get that you got fucked here, but where was your inspector with this info? Did he note a missing water shut off valve? Did he test water pressure? Did you get a survey of the property that was noted as having an absent water meter? I know it’s all water under the bridge, but your guys probably fucked this up a bit too. |
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Posted: 6/5/2022 7:48:54 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I get that you got fucked here, but where was your inspector with this info? Did he note a missing water shut off valve? Did he test water pressure? Did you get a survey of the property that was noted as having an absent water meter? I know it’s all water under the bridge, but your guys probably fucked this up a bit too. There is a shutoff valve inside the house. He did a basic check if flow through the fixtures. There was a recent survey if the property. I can go back and look, but there is a meter on the property. It's a sub meter like you can get at Lowe's. Even if they pulled the cover, they would have seen the meter being used. The sub meter is about 250' from the house. Tell me what the home inspector was supposed to do above inspecting the observable areas of the home? Nobody on our end fucked up. What were we supposed to do? Get a shovel out and start digging? Go talk to the neighbors? Go down to the water department and pull records, of which there is only 1 drawing that has been able to be found, by me? Tell me what else we were supposed to do. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 10:24:42 AM EDT
[#43]
Tag for updates. When I first started reading I saw the post date of 2019 and thought "surely this will be wrapped up by now"
 Sucks op, hope you get it figured out. |
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Posted: 6/23/2022 5:05:24 PM EDT
[#44]
If anyone in Columbus, OH is free on Tuesday, June 28th at 10am, the seller's realtor's hearing is scheduled to take place. Strong possibility that I will attend to observe, but I have not been subpoenaed. Unless subpoenaed, I will have no interaction, only observation. I really want to go and see what happens and take notes. Lawyer has no issue with it.
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Posted: 6/30/2022 5:50:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Update: The hearing for the real estate agent was continued to next month. The depositions for the sellers happened Monday and it was interesting.
The sellers claim up and down that they told their realtor to make sure we knew about the situation. They claimed our inspector missed it, but their inspector didn't find it either. They also don't remember the name of their inspector, which they claim to have used twice. The wife said she would buy a house in this situation if she liked the house enough, but only if her husband was there to fix the breaks. There have been 7 water line breaks in 4 years of them living here. The husband estimated $1200 of materials and $1500 of extra water cost just for their months. There have been several months of $500-$600+ water bills and arguments with neighbors. The best part, I think, is when the realtor's lawyer asked about one of the seller's witnesses/experts. It was someone they called out as being and "expert" on water lines and then the husband went on to confirm my story about how the village can't extend the line. The difference is that the village told him they couldn't do it because the ground was too hard. To that, he called HIS OWN WITNESS a liar because, in his words "we have diamond-tipped everything now". Called his own witness a liar. The realtor also used my texts against the sellers when I said they would probably throw the realtor under the bus. She asked the sellers if that's what was happening. It was fun to watch. Now we're on to their lawyer filing to have the second appraisal thrown out of the discovery. Other than that, too much to remember or type up. More to come. |
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Posted: 7/2/2022 11:20:24 PM EDT
[#46]
Thanks for the update
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Posted: 7/11/2022 12:07:20 PM EDT
[#47]
Thanks for the update things are looking pretty good for you at this point!
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Posted: 7/11/2022 2:23:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the update things are looking pretty good for you at this point! I feel like it is going great. The realtor's hearing is scheduled for the end of this month and I really want to go and see what happens. It's a public hearing, so anyone can attend. The realtor's lawyer is trying to get the second appraisal thrown out claiming that the appraiser is incompetent. They guy has been in the business for 30+ years with no infractions or discipline by the board. They say because he took one class about stigma and referred to his appraiser colleagues to help him form a value that he is incompetent and doesn't know what he's talking about. My mother in law is an appraiser and said that is exactly what their rules tell them to do. Something about the USPAP for appraisers. |
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Posted: 7/20/2022 2:45:11 PM EDT
[#49]
Update: So the lawyer for the seller's realtor and real estate agency filed for summary judgement and dismissal. Their basic arguments are that this waterline is not a material defect. Further, we had plenty of opportunity to ask about the utilities and it was up to us to ask about them.
The problem is that we did ask about them at closing and were told everything was good and fine. Also, per the Director of the water department, the water line is illegal and substandard. The other lawyers are also asking about mediation. The court appointed mediator had a conflict because they knew the head of the real estate agency, so the judge urged private mediation. We're working out dates to sit with a mediator. We'll see what they come up with. The state hearing for the seller's realtor is still the 27th. I'm planning on attending in person to see what happens. I'm anxious to see what the state rep says about the situation. |
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Posted: 7/20/2022 7:35:59 PM EDT
[#50]
They are scared- You have them backed into a corner the question is how much is it gonna cost them and who's gonna pay.
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