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Posted: 6/12/2003 8:55:33 PM EDT
1: Is it legal to import current production 'Hi-cap' magazines from over-seas? I know there are new import's, but can someone who goes on a trip over-seas per se' buy a case of them and ship/transport them here? 2: I know that AK's are stripped of their vertical fore-grips when theyre imported, but thats about all I know about vertical fore-grips. Question is, is it legal to make a vertical grip (permenantly attatched type, not on a rail) for a rifle? Sorry for the dumb questions, Thanks for correct responses.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:09:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:41:22 PM EDT
The vast knowledge on this board never ceases to amaze me...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:28:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: unless you're talking about something less than $100, which can then be done on a Form 6.
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By less than $100, what exactly do you mean? I can get new AK mag's overseas for pennies a piece(same goes for M16, and other standard mags). I want to bring in a case of mag's, rather than buy em here at rediculously inflated prices(sell off a bunch, keep a dozen or so for myself then).
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:52:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:57:14 PM EDT
dangit.. I would have imagined that such a small amount of stuff wouldnt need a license or anything. Anyone here an FFL that wouldnt mind me shipping something to them, then shipping to me?(ill let ya keep some of the shipment as compensation) [;)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:16:03 AM EDT
To further elaborate, no you cannot buy CURRENT PRODUCTION large-cap mags overseas and import them, regardless of amount, unless the required LEO/Gov't restriction markings are placed on them, and they're for LEO/Gov't use only. Imported large cap mags must still have been made before 9/13/94, and ATF will require chain-of-custody proof, or proof of date of manufacture before allowing the magazines to be imported. This is such a hassle that importing pre-94 large cap mags is usually left to the big importers who can deal with the proof hassles and still get enough mags in to make the deal profitable. ATF lists somewhere the proof they consider acceptable, and includes things like having been in the sole possession of a foreign government, or foreign arms dealer since 9/13/94, or date-coding from the manufacturer, and a chain-of-custody document to show the mags in question were produced before the ban, and haven't been remarked after the fact to falsely establish an earlier date of manufacture.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:00:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 6:09:25 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
Originally Posted By Troy: It is perfectly legal to put a forward grip on an AK, as long as it is a rifle. Putting one on an AK pistol (or any other pistol) would make it an AOW, and subject to the NFA. -Troy
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Well, this is another of the ATF's OPPINIONS and this OPPINION resulted in the ATF trying to prosecute ONE case that I am aware of... The case was withdrawn from the Court system by the Government after one of the Circuit Judges disagreed with the ATF's oppinion as was going to bounce the case!!! Look at Bardwell's website for the case but I have tried to get the ATF to comment in writing and needless to say they don't like to admit to being wrong! Also, note that the crime bill mentions forward pistol grips as a feature on semiauto pistols.... If the ATF allowed this to be a definition that defines a semiautomatic assault weapon pistol, then forward grips must be allowed on pistols or it wouldn't need to be listed... RIGHT? If all pistols with a forward grip are AOWs, then you can't add it as a list of items featured on a pistol! Now, I assume on a pistol that the vertical grip would be removable but who the hell knows and I dare say the ATF doesn't know either!
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 4:12:25 PM EDT
"forward grip" is not on the pistol AW feature list - it is "heatshield, shroud or handguard which allows the user to grasp the firearm there without being burned[paraphrase]". A forward vertical grip is a very specific item relating to AOW's, since a pistol cannot have more than "one grip at an angle to the bore".
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 5:45:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 6:19:28 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features: [list=1][*]an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.[/*] [*]a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.[/*] [*]a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.[/*] [*]a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded.[/*] [*]a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.[/*][/list=1]
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Um, I respect Circuts but I see a forward handgrip as possibly being a pistol grip... perhaps I am wrong? Here is the other story I was refering too...
ATF has made the decision that a handgun (but not a machine gun, since a machine gun is not also an AOW) with more than one hand grip at an angle to the bore is an AOW. This is based on the gun a) being concealable on the person, and b) not meeting the definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the bore. However, at least one federal magistrate has decided that if the grip is added later, the gun is not "originally designed" to be fired by holding in more than one grip, and thus putting a second grip on a pistol does not make it an AOW. ATF does not regard the decision as binding. The case is U.S. v. Davis, Crim No. 8:93-106 (D.S.C. 1993) (Report of Magistrate, June 21, 1993). The prosecution was dismissed at the request of the Government before any review of that determination by the trial judge.
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From [url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt[/url] Also see [url]http://www.titleii.com/Bardwell/us_v_davis2.txt[/url] where it says...
24. The 9 millimeter and .22 caliber pistols seized by ATF were modified by adding an additional grip. 25. Title 26, United States Code Section 5845(e) defines "any other weapon" as: ... any weapon or device capable of being concealed from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosion ... Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26. A "pistol" is defined in Section 5845 as A weapon originally designed, made and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). 27 CFR 178.11 (emphasis added). 27. Even after being modified with grips, the pistols are still "pistols" as defined above and not "any other weapon" as defined by 26 U.S.C. section 5845(e).
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Like I said, the ATF feels adding a second grip on a pistol makes for an AOW but there is some room to disagree! I would love to see somebody with more money than me take a new Glock with the accessory rail and register their Glock as an AOW with the ATF, then SUE the ATF for a tax refund claiming that it wasn't necessary to register the pistol as an AOW to allow the use of the vertical grip! This is about the only way you will corner the ATF into proving their case and is very much like what T/C did regarding the Contender... See: [url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/thompson.txt[/url] If anybody wants to try and understand the law, Bardwell had really put together a wealth of info that is both fun and a challange to try to apply! [url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/index.html[/url]
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