Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 6/3/2003 9:45:41 AM EDT
I am going to buy a Bushmaster 16" A3. I want a pinned collapsable style stock but it is cheaper to buy that separately and change out the buttstock. Question: If I bought the rifle, could I also purchase a collapsable M4-style stock if I do not own a preban rifle and have them located in the same dwelling? The idea is that I would have it and when (optimistic) the AWB sunsets, I could install it on the rifle, rather than buying a pinned one now. I foresee it being difficult to get that style stock if the ban sunsets because of the demand. If it is illegal, that solves my dilemma.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:57:24 AM EDT
It should be legal simply by the fact that its perfectly legal to own pre-ban and post-ban rifles at the same time. Its the actual act of assembling pre-ban parts on a post-ban gun that is illegal.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:09:15 AM EDT
Well, if you apply that logic with M16 parts instead of pre-ban parts, they will consider it intent to manufacture a machine gun if you have an AR15 in the same dwelling or in your posession... I don't think they would treat each situation differently... store pre-ban parts elsewhere...
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:12:02 AM EDT
M16 parts are a different story all together, and its been debated heavily here whether that ATF "opinion" on M16 parts even has a legal basis. Its legal for a person to own a pre-ban without paperwork, not so with an M16. Thats where the difference comes in.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 5:41:56 PM EDT
----------------------------- Energizer: store pre-ban parts elsewhere ----------------------------- I could always have it sent to or bought by a friend that doesn't own an AR. That would settle the issue once and for all. Although, I could imagine ATF accusing the person of conspiracy to install a collapsable stock onto a Winchester Model 94 lever action rifle. ---------------------------- Lumpy196: Its the actual act of assembling pre-ban parts on a post-ban gun that is illegal. ---------------------------- This makes sense. It would suck though to get busted even with the best of intentions.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:14:07 PM EDT
Why will the ATF be in your house looking for something in the first place?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:35:19 PM EDT
I'm sorry man and please dont take this personally, but of you are afraid to own a collapsible stock and not have it on your post ban lower. You are way too paranoid.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 2:39:46 PM EDT
------------------------------ M4_Aiming_at_U: I'm sorry man and please dont take this personally, but of you are afraid to own a collapsible stock and not have it on your post ban lower. You are way too paranoid. ------------------------------ First off, I am, by my very nature, paranoid. I have been told so by my wife, other family, etc. I don't take it personally. The reason I'm tip-toeing through this and being more paranoid than usual is because I have a lot to lose. I am here on a visa and still in the process of getting a Green Card. If I get busted for even a relatively minor violation I get deported. I have been told so by my immigration lawyer (who's helping with the Green Card processing). When I first started buying guns here about 6 years ago, I got through NICS checks without a problem on the spot. As long as you're here legally you can buy all the guns you want. Then NICS got tougher with visa-holders even before 9/11. The last time I bought a gun about a year ago, it took many letters back and forth to NICS with ample immigration documents to finally convince them to approve the transfer. That only took six months to the day. The NICS Appeals Services Unit is thorough to say the least. ------------------------------- Combat_Jack: Why will the ATF be in your house looking for something in the first place? ------------------------------- Because when I go to purchase my Bushmaster some young hot shot at NICS won't have any idea about the law and he/she will call up ATF where another young hot shot will decide to bust down my door and arrest a 'terrorist'. I could avoid this by not buying the rifle, but I'm already addicted and from what I've read on the board there is no cure!
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:33:46 PM EDT
I could always have it sent to or bought by a friend that doesn't own an AR. That would settle the issue once and for all. Although, I could imagine ATF accusing the person of conspiracy to install a collapsable stock onto a Winchester Model 94 lever action rifle.
View Quote
This would be perfectly legal unless your lever action is a semi-auto.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 7:06:26 PM EDT
To be clearer, it's not a conspiracy, which requires more than one person acting together. It is constructive possession.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 11:26:05 AM EDT
After reading this thorugh a couple times it seems like yall never came to a conclusion. So legal, iffy, or not worth it?
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 12:07:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By steveamy:
I could always have it sent to or bought by a friend that doesn't own an AR. That would settle the issue once and for all. Although, I could imagine ATF accusing the person of conspiracy to install a collapsable stock onto a Winchester Model 94 lever action rifle.
View Quote
This would be perfectly legal unless your lever action is a semi-auto.
View Quote
Even it it was semi-auto it would be legal. I don't recall that lever action having a bayonet lug, threaded barrel OR flash hider with/without threaded barrel, or pistol grip...
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 5:58:23 PM EDT
------------------------- Phil_A_Steen: To be clearer, it's not a conspiracy, which requires more than one person acting together. It is constructive possession. ------------------------- Got it. At least I would know exactly why I was being sodomized. ------------------------ ZRH: After reading this thorugh a couple times it seems like yall never came to a conclusion. So legal, iffy, or not worth it? ------------------------ I ordered the Bushy today. So now the question becomes more palpable. Does anyone know definitively if it (collapsable style M4 stock) can be kept in the same house? I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it is interesting that the answer isn't as obvious as it should be, which re-enforces how stupid the AWB is in the first place. The guy at the store was pretty cool, but he thought the AWB would be renewed.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:02:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 9:10:48 PM EDT by otto_esq]
Constructive possession is the proper term but it has no application to your situation. Under [url=http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/921.html]18 USC 921 et al.[/url] (the assault weapon ban) you can have a room full of M-4 stocks, crates of pistol grips, even flash suppressors and bayo lugged front sight towers new in the wrappings under your bed and own only post-ban lowers on any of your AR's. Not to mention a box of pre-ban complete rifle kits minus the lowers in the closet. Nothing illegal about it at all. You just can't install more than legally allowed (1 plus detachable magazine) on a post-ban receivered AR. Ownership or storage of detached parts is meaningless under the assault weapon ban. 18 USC 921 is not the NFA. Only under the National Firearms Act codified at [url=http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/5845.html]26 USC 5845 [/url] does the mere possession of certain firearms parts mean anything or "constructive possession" issues come into play. (see (b)Machinegun: "any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled ") To quote Steve-in-VA for he states this very well, "In a firearms case, if you have a bunch of parts that could, when put together, make an [b][red]unregistered MG[/red][/b], then you have possibly violated federal law, provided all essential elements of the crime are present. You would be guilty of "constructive possession" of an unregistered MG if the trier of fact, judge or jury, finds the US proved it's burden beyond a reasonable doubt as to each and every essential element of the crime charged" from [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=188436] Intent to manufacture[/url] Now if you have a complete, assembled upper with a 11.5" AOL barrel and no SBR stamp for your pre- or post-ban lower, THAT is constructive possession of a SBR in violation of the NFA but that is not your issue. In short, "constructive possession" and the AWB do not go together. Don't be paranoid; be informed. Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:03:36 PM EDT
[b][size=5]Thank You Otto[/size=5][/b]
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:43:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By C-4: ------------------------------ M4_Aiming_at_U: I'm sorry man and please dont take this personally, but of you are afraid to own a collapsible stock and not have it on your post ban lower. You are way too paranoid. ------------------------------ First off, I am, by my very nature, paranoid. I have been told so by my wife, other family, etc. I don't take it personally. The reason I'm tip-toeing through this and being more paranoid than usual is because I have a lot to lose. I am here on a visa and still in the process of getting a Green Card. If I get busted for even a relatively minor violation I get deported. I have been told so by my immigration lawyer (who's helping with the Green Card processing). When I first started buying guns here about 6 years ago, I got through NICS checks without a problem on the spot. As long as you're here legally you can buy all the guns you want. Then NICS got tougher with visa-holders even before 9/11. The last time I bought a gun about a year ago, it took many letters back and forth to NICS with ample immigration documents to finally convince them to approve the transfer. That only took six months to the day. The NICS Appeals Services Unit is thorough to say the least.
View Quote
Okay, that makes more sense,I guess I dont blame you for trying to be extra sure. Where are you from?
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 3:55:21 PM EDT
Thank you otto_esq. You rock! ------------------------- M4_Aiming_at_U: Okay, that makes more sense,I guess I dont blame you for trying to be extra sure. Where are you from? ------------------------- I'm from Canada. My parents originally emigrated there from Hungary in 1969 and I came to the U.S. about 12 years ago for college. When it comes to guns (and everything else!), the U.S. is the best place in the world. No wonder people risk death to get here. I'm an NRA and GOA member and I write to my reps even though I won't be able to vote until I become a citizen. I don't want to do anything that jeopardizes my staying in the U.S.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:54:42 PM EDT
I pulled this from the atfe's website... curious to see the opinions of the second paragraph... ------------------- (02) How does the law define the term "semiautomatic assault weapon?" [Back] The term "semiautomatic assault weapon" is defined to include 19 named models of firearms and semiautomatic rifles, semiautomatic pistols, and semiautomatic shotguns that have at least 2 of the features specified in the law. Frames or receivers for firearms are not regulated as semiautomatic assault weapons, since they could be assembled as a firearm other than the 19 named models of firearms. Likewise, frames or receivers are not semiautomatic assault weapons under the "features" test of the law because they do not yet have the features necessary to bring them within the definition. Semiautomatic assault weapons in knockdown (disassembled) condition consisting of a receiver and all parts needed to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon are subject to regulation if the parts are segregated or packaged together and held by a person as the parts for the assembly of a particular firearm. [18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 30)] http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#o1
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:23:36 AM EDT
------------------------------------------------ zad2710: Semiautomatic assault weapons in knockdown (disassembled) condition consisting of a receiver and all parts needed to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon are subject to regulation if the parts are segregated or packaged together and held by a person as the parts for the assembly of a particular firearm. [18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 30)] ------------------------------------------------ I posted my question about the collapsable stock originally for my own benefit, but the above is the reason it is a good question. I'm not going to be the only one trying to get a head start on changing out parts (stock, flash suppressor). It's like being 19 with your 17 year-old girlfriend the day before her 18th birthday. You both want to do it, and it ain't going to hurt anyone, but you should really wait. (My new Bushy keeps telling me that she would look so much better with a collapsable stock!)
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:35:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 5:35:55 AM EDT by Energizer]
Simple solution: buy a pre-ban and you can have all the pre-ban parts you need. I've been re-thinking this: If you do not have a pre-ban, you could probably have multiple pre-ban parts in your possession, since you are able to reconfigure your setup anytime you wish... as long as you can make a legal post-ban configuration with EACH pre-ban part. For example, if you have a tele-stock, get the ZM-Weapons stubby grip to replace the pistol grip... If both are in your posession, then you can still prove that a post-ban config can be made...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:54:09 PM EDT
as long as you dont put it on a post ban you can have it. you can have all the pre-ban parts you want as long as you dont put them on a post ban rifle, M16 parts is a whole different ball game
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:11:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bluemax: as long as you dont put it on a post ban you can have it. you can have all the pre-ban parts you want as long as you dont put them on a post ban rifle, M16 parts is a whole different ball game
View Quote
Except that if you put all the parts needed to assemble a post-ban rifle illegaly in pre-ban config together in one box, package or container, you've created a "semi-auto assault weapon in knockdown condition". Keep the pre-ban config parts stored separately from your post-ban rifles.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:54:07 PM EDT
Also remember that the crime bill only applies to a semi auto.... just remove the gas tube and you have a charging handle operated BOLT ACTION and you could use these parts on your post ban as for as long as the rifle isn't a semi-auto... the crime bill would not apply! Also, people confuse Machine Gun constructive intent by assuming that this logic would apply elsewhere... As long as you have a rational reason on why you can legaly use what you have you should have no problem! Do you have a 10-inch AR-15 barrel... If so, just remember that you were planning to buy a new stripped lower as a PISTOL RECEIBER and build it as a BOLT ACTION POST-BAN pistol! Got a CAR stock... remember with no gas tube it's legal as a bolt action! M-16 parts... sorry, no other reason then to build a machine gun! Good luck in court justifying why you need them for anything else!
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:45:06 PM EDT
Quarterbore: I agree with you about the 10" barrel comment [i]IF[/i] you specify that it is just the barrel, meaning it is not attached to an upper receiver, torqued barrel nut, front sight installed, etc. For if it is all assembled, except maybe lacking a gas tube, you might find yourself in this situation [url=http://www.law.emory.edu/11circuit/may99/97-8425.man.html]US v. Kent[/url] where it is argued that a few seconds to push the pins in (or "only a few minutes" to install the gas tube) and you would have a SBR. I'd feel even better about your comment if you had specified that the 10" barrel was possessed in conjunction with a stripped lower that was already purchased as a pistol lower. Kent stated that he had the SBR upper for "parts" but the court, even on appeal, didn't buy it. M16 parts and SBR's are both covered under the NFA, hence my comment above re: "assembled upper with a 11.5" AOL barrel and no SBR stamp for your pre- or post-ban lower..." BTW, how is your Auto-unloader in .300/221 coming? Got any links to recent posts? PA deer season is coming soon. Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:54:41 PM EDT
Nothing is illegal unless you get caught!
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:47:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By otto_esq: BTW, how is your Auto-unloader in .300/221 coming? Got any links to recent posts? PA deer season is coming soon. Cheers, Otto
View Quote
Well, right now I am on hold a little as I just purchased a Full Auto Vector UZI and I need to sell a few toys! I have my barrel, but this barrel will be for a BOLT ACTION AR-15 pistol as it has no gas port. I already have all the parts I need but I was going to build this using one of my KAC FF RAS tubes... I may want to see the FF RAS to help cover the new UZI purchase? Just the same, once I get a few spare hours, I will be building my POST-BAN Bolt Action AR-15 pistol in 300 Fireball! QB
Top Top