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Posted: 10/28/2002 9:17:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 9:24:24 AM EDT
If it's a pre-ban SKS, then it should be legal as is. Mike
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 9:58:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 10:02:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BookHound: The problem is the guy can't prove it was in that configuration before September, 1994. Doesn't he have the burden of proof?
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In a word, yes.
We know the rifle was manufactured in 1979 based on the markings. But he can't prove it was in AW configuration in 1994. My understanding is there must be proof.
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Date of mfg. is irrelevant with SKS or other imports. It's date of import that matters.
The guy took the rifle to a gun dealer when he first got it, thinking he might sell it. The dealer told him all SKS rifles were imported prior to the AW ban. Therefore, the dealer thought it was legal. I'm really confused. I told the guy to replace the stock just to be on the safe side.
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The dealer was talking some unadulterated poodie. For a ggod breakdown on what is probably the most confusing of all rifles for legalities, check out [url]http://www.simonov.net[/url]
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 5:08:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 10:35:23 PM EDT
Hey, Troy, me again, hehe. "Something like 95% of the SKSs currently in the US were imported AFTER 1990, and must comply with the restrictions on post'89 imports." What you mean "must comply", how ya figure, comply with what? "Unless you can prove a pre-90 import date, I'd put it back into stock configuration. It can't even accept detachable mags legally unless the bayo lug is removed. Bayonets were allowed on the European SKSs because they were considered C&R guns, but this only applies if they are kept in stock configuration." Gee, you know I can't find that in law, regulation, or ruling, can you point that out fer me?
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 3:27:34 AM EDT
Five minutes and a dremel tool, and that bayonet lug will come off.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 7:04:55 AM EDT
921(a)(30) of Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 legally defines and lists the features that comprise a "semiautomatic assault rifle". A SKS with a detachable magazine, pistol style grip, and one other listed feature is illegal to possess. On July 7th, 1989 various military style rifles were banned from importation by the Secretary of the Treasury. Listed was the "SKS style rifle with folding stock, folding bayonet, or detachable magazine. Pre-ban or not, it is illegal to install a folder on a long gun with a detachable magazine. However, if the rifle had a folding stock and detachable installed BEFORE date of the ban, it can legally keep the folding stock. Of course, provided there is some sort of PROOF the rifle is indeed 'PRE-BAN' and the folding stock was attached before Nov 1990. A U.S. made SKS with a FIXED magazine and folding stock is entirely legal to possess if "suitable for sporting purposes." SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE: (As defined by 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44) Section 921(a)(28) - "Any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge." SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON: (As defined by 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44) Section 921(a)(30) - "The term 'semiautomatic assault weapon' means ... (B) a semiautomatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of - (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and (v) a grenade launcher" NOTE: Section 922(v)(1) states that "It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon". LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE: (As defined by 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44) Section 921(1)(31) - "The term 'large capacity ammunition feeding device' ... means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition." Although not stipulated in any import ban, it is a listed feature which helps define a "semiautomatic assault weapon". It is completely legal all by itself. However, it is illegal if it is a feature of a rifle defined as a "semiautomatic assault rifle". 922(v)(1) of Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 states that "it shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon". 921(a)(30) of Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 legally defines and lists the features that comprise a "semiautomatic assault rifle". A SKS with a detachable magazine, bayonet lug, and one other listed feature is illegal to possess. 923(e) exempts firearms listed as curio and relics (C&R) from ANY provision in Title 18. "Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Secretary [of the Treasury] shall authorize the importation of ... all rifles ... listed as curios and relics by the Secretary pursuant to section 921(a)(13). "Notwithstanding" is used here as a preposition meaning "despite". Basically, despite any law governing bayonets, if the SKS in question is listed as a curio and relic, then it's legal to import, thus possess with the bayonet. If it's not listed, it's for a reason. A C&R firearm is still a "firearm", so a weapon listed as a C&R assembled from imported parts may no longer be legal to possess as it may still violate 922(r).
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 7:32:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 7:59:56 AM EDT
"921(a)(30) of Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 legally defines and lists the features that comprise a "semiautomatic assault rifle"." Why yes it does, and say this rifle meets the definition of a semiautomatic assault rifle. "A SKS with a detachable magazine, pistol style grip, and one other listed feature is illegal to possess." That is a big jump from meeting the definition to being illegal. You left out the illegal part. "On July 7th, 1989 various military style rifles were banned from importation by the Secretary of the Treasury." That is correct. "Listed was the "SKS style rifle with folding stock, folding bayonet, or detachable magazine." That is not found in law, regulation, or ruling. "Pre-ban or not, it is illegal to install a folder on a long gun with a detachable magazine. However, if the rifle had a folding stock and detachable installed BEFORE date of the ban, it can legally keep the folding stock. Of course, provided there is some sort of PROOF the rifle is indeed 'PRE-BAN' and the folding stock was attached before Nov 1990." You made up the part about that you can only legally keep the folding stock on the rifle if you can prove it "was attached before Nov 1990". My original question was to reference law, regulation, or ruling that says something like that, you can not site it cuz it don't exist. Go ahead and chase your tail if you want, I will enjoy the show. "A U.S. made SKS with a FIXED magazine and folding stock is entirely legal to possess if "suitable for sporting purposes."" That come right out of thin air, actually sounds like something overheard from a dealer at a gunshow. "SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE: (As defined by 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44) Section 921(a)(28) - "Any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge."" Interesting, does it apply to this thread? "SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON: (As defined by 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44) Section 921(a)(30) - "The term 'semiautomatic assault weapon' means ... (B) a semiautomatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of - (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and (v) a grenade launcher" Again, lets say this rifle meets the definition of a semiautomatic assault rifle, hope we are going to move along from this point. "NOTE: Section 922(v)(1) states that "It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon"." Yes, but you forgot the exception in 922(v)(2) that reads: Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection. So rather then side track the issue as you have done we should just ask BookHound if the rifle in question was legally possessed on 09-13-94, if so it is grandfathered. "LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE: (As defined by 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44) Section 921(1)(31) - "The term 'large capacity ammunition feeding device' ... means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition." " Huh, what is that all about? "Although not stipulated in any import ban, it is a listed feature which helps define a "semiautomatic assault weapon". It is completely legal all by itself. However, it is illegal if it is a feature of a rifle defined as a "semiautomatic assault rifle". 922(v)(1) of Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 states that "it shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon". 921(a)(30) of Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44 legally defines and lists the features that comprise a "semiautomatic assault rifle"." Again, there is the exception in 922(v)(2). "A SKS with a detachable magazine, bayonet lug, and one other listed feature is illegal to possess." Again there is the exception in 922(v)(2). "923(e) exempts firearms listed as curio and relics (C&R) from ANY provision in Title 18. "Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Secretary [of the Treasury] shall authorize the importation of ... all rifles ... listed as curios and relics by the Secretary pursuant to section 921(a)(13). "Notwithstanding" is used here as a preposition meaning "despite". Basically, despite any law governing bayonets, if the SKS in question is listed as a curio and relic, then it's legal to import, thus possess with the bayonet. If it's not listed, it's for a reason. A C&R firearm is still a "firearm", so a weapon listed as a C&R assembled from imported parts may no longer be legal to possess as it may still violate 922(r)." Are you sure 922(r) relates to possession? Take another look. Really what is the relevance of any of that last paragraph to BookHound's possession of said rifle?
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 8:46:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2002 8:49:56 AM EDT by BookHound]
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 9:14:59 AM EDT
Well Mike's rifle would be okay to possess if it meets the grandfather clause found in 18 USC section 922(v)(2) that reads: Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection. So sounds to me like Mike does not know if it was legally possessed on 09-13-94, I sure don't. If the ATF wanted to go after Mike they would have to convince a DOJ prosecutor that the rifle in question was not legally possessed on 09-13-94 and therefore Mike was in illegal possession of a semiautomatic assault rifle under 18 USC section 922(v). Not sure how they could do that, and if they did then the DOJ prosecutor would have to prove to the court that Mike's rifle was not legally possessed on 09-13-94, sounds like a tough case for the DOJ if the story you tell is correct huh?
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 9:32:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 9:47:12 AM EDT
A first hand eye witness would be hard to beat, but he sounds a bit wishy washy not knowing dates other then it was in the 1980's. So you ask my personal opinion, well I would take the stock set and mag out and sell them separate, and then sell the rifle, and then buy a AK, take that for what it is worth.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 9:51:29 AM EDT
Internal Revenue Code of 1954 Section 5845(a) lists firearms readily suited for sporting purposes. 925(d) gives the Secretary of the Treasury final authority on what firearms can be imported or possessed in the United States if the firearm does not appear in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954. This is why the SKS is so difficult. We aren't talking about just the '94 ban. The summation of the lawful status of SKS has to incorporate more than just the code provided within the '94 order. US Code Chapter 44 Section 922(r) reads: "it shall be unlawful for anyone to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle ... which is identical to any rifle prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter". Identical in function prohibits detachable magazines on imported SKS's. A SKS with a folding stock is illegal to possess. When a person modifies an existing weapon, they are considered to be assembling a completely different weapon. A US-made (reassembled) SKS with folding stock and accepts detachable magazines is illegal. A US made SKS with a fixed mag and folding stock is entirely legal to possess if suitable for sporting purposes, but not with a bayonet because that qualifies it as an "assault" rifle. In '89, specific rifles were banned from importation by the Secretary of the Treasury. Listed was the "SKS style rifle with folding stock, folding bayonet, or detachable magazine. It is illegal to install a folder on a long gun with a detachable magazine - preban or not. However, if the rifle had a folding stock and detachable installed BEFORE date of the ban, it can legally keep the folding stock. Of course, provided there is some sort of proof the rifle is preban and the folding stock was attached before 90 - not 1994.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 1:24:43 PM EDT
If you read the text from 922(r) that you just posted you will see that it only covers the act of assembly, not possession. So other then 922(v) which I already covered what law are you talking about the prevents Mike from possessing this weapon?
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 1:29:38 PM EDT
"Internal Revenue Code of 1954 Section 5845(a) lists firearms readily suited for sporting purposes. 925(d) gives the Secretary of the Treasury final authority on what firearms can be imported or possessed in the United States if the firearm does not appear in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954." That is make believe, where are you getting this stuff?
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