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Posted: 3/9/2002 7:44:14 PM EDT
I've been playing with the idea of setting up a 'bugout pack', or field/camping pack, if you will. This could conceivably be used for SHTF (Shit Hits The Fan) situations. The idea is to have this handy all-in-one kit of survival gear, suitable for a minimum of two weeks of self-sufficiency, if all the contents are used responsibly. Assume I'm going to bug out and head for the mountains. (Hills, anyway.) It'll ideally be pretty deserted. After all, the point is to not be noticed. I've thought of a million things I COULD put in such a kit, but I'd need two Clydesdales to carry it if I did that! Maybe those of you who know how military packs are set up can give me a clue. Remember, the goal is two week's worth of essentials out of the pack, not counting water. Food, clothing (assume cold weather will be encountered) and shelter. If I ever had to use this kit in an SHTF situation, I'd take an AR and a good supply of ammo, too. I figure two battle packs (280 rounds) oughta be sufficient. That, or ten pre-loaded 30 round mags, some with ammo that's best suited for hunting duties. Don't hesitate to be specific. Right now I don't even have the pack itself! I can easily get a recent vintage US issue surplus one, though. CJ
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 8:01:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2002 6:33:03 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 5:30:35 AM EDT
[url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=85399]SHTF Toilet Paper[/url] Try doing a search on "SHTF", you'd be surprised how many times this question has been discussed...
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 6:13:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2002 6:26:53 AM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
Ok, Since the Bush Admin, just issued orders to the Pentagon, instucting them, to come up with, up to date nuclear targeting plans and in the wording of those instuctions, basicaly put the world on notice, that, The circumstances under which, the U.S., would use nuclear weapons, had radicaly changed since 9-11. Lets take a look at survivalist thought on the Subject of Retreating. While many would be retreaters, still entertain the idea, of just picking up their pack and heading up into the hills, there are massive problems with this fantisy idea. True wilderness areas in the USA are few and far between. The days when you could go out and stake your claim are long gone. it is very hard to find a corner of the lower 48, that does not have either a land owner, or someone living close by. These people may not take to kindly, to a new camo clad carpet bagger with an assault rifle, pitching his squaters camp close by. You will find, that going off into the wilderness to play Grizzly Adams, holds little appeal to, Wife, Kids, Older Relatives or friends. That is unless you are some sort of ragged ass loner, That is the very profile of a person most communities, would shun in the event of a disaster large enough to require you to head for the hills in the first place. Most communities and or groups will not want single males with assault weapons and no means of long term support hanging around the county. Armed citizen groups and county deputies will most likely see that you head on down the road. Don't think for a minute, that because you have an AR, that you can use it to stake you sqauters rights, That AR does not make you ten feet tall and bullet proof, In the event if national disaster, I think you will find, That Everbody and their brother has an AR too. There are lots of them and only one of you. add to that the fact that medical care if you get shot, will be pretty much a non issue, other than what care you can provide your self, and you have real good reason to avoid conflict with the locals, that might result in GETTING SHOT! Any crisis that would require, that you pick up and flee to the wilderness, is going to last longer than the food you can stick in a back pack will last you, If it's bad enough to pick up a pack and run, then it is going to be a fundemantal change, in the way we live in this country. Way beyond, coming down out of the hills in a couple weeks, If the disaster is that bad, you need to think in terms of years, not weeks. National Parks? Don't bet on it, Lot's of others will have that idea too, and that could get ugly. Go with this Grizzly Adams idea and you will probably end up dead, or swept up, disarmed and stuck in a refuge camp somewhere, waiting for goverment assistance. There are more reasons, why "Loner with a Backpack Style" retreating is a bad idea, But they will have to wait until my next post. I'll quit now and let you try to explain more about this "head for the hills idea". Do you live in a major city or close to a Nuclear Target? By the way, Sometimes the best Camoflage, is not to be wearing Camoflage.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 6:21:32 AM EDT
Some Beer and maybe a small caliber handgun & 10 rounds of ammo. (the gun is just to take more beer by force, of course.)
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 6:42:15 AM EDT
I always laugh when I see the inclusion of condems in a BOB list! What's up with THAT? [:D]
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 6:44:05 AM EDT
Ok, Fearandloathing37 I totally agree with you that if the SHTF really happens, it will be a long term commitment. I personally have SHTF contingency supplies (stored in USGI Medical Storage Units) and plans- no way everything will fit in a pack. I have a family, so there was that to think of, too. I ain't humpin' EVERYONE'S pack! I disagree with your views on E&E type of living. It doesn't take much sense to lay low, and a person could do that within a major city as well as a state/national park. As far as being Grizzly Adams, if I were on the lam (so to speak) I damn sure wouldn't be flaunting around town. I would take what I need, the AR being there for persuasive purposes. I don't think we would need 300+ rounds. I could go on and on. P.S. I do have several USGI Medium and Large Alice packs along with 782 gear for my entire family included in my supplies. Thanks for letting me rant, Jarhead94
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 6:50:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2002 6:51:36 AM EDT by obershutze916]
Fearandloathing37, You mean I CAN'T take over a national park with my trusty AR. Then what the hell am I doing here, I need a bigger gun. I think the moral of the story here is to have a group of guys lined up ahead of time so you can shoot the lonely drifters and take their SHTF stuff. Seriously, good points though.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 6:52:23 AM EDT
I think the most that you could ever experience would be the 2 week scenario. That is reasonable. Mountains until your city gets back to normal. Say from a BioWeapon... The 2 Week Scenario still counts when your city gets nuked. Just take the two weeks to relocate to a different state. Limited Nuclear Exchange , Still applies, but with taken to avoid fallout and dangerous spots. NEED MORE AMMO THOUGH, for highways. Full Blown Nuclear War.... Well I don't have the kind of money it takes to survive that. So My ass is grass in that scenario. Say 20 years in huge fully equipt , state of the art underground shelter.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 7:19:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: [url=]http://www.jesseshuntingpage.com/survival-home-defense.html#bob[/url] the above list slightly edited. *****Stolen from above website**** medicines backpack food, trail mix, Power bars, jerky, hard candy, ramen noodles, MREs etc. Minimum of 2000 calories of food with 60 grams of protein per day. 1 or 2 quart canteens, two each water, 2 gallons per person per day. water filter/purifier and purifying tablets like Potable Aqua pistol with 1 holster and 4 mags and ammo compass, Silva Ranger is good model maps tactcal taylor mav pistol belt with holster mag and waist pouches flashlight with duct tape and extra batteries Nomex gloves& leather gloves 100foot of parachute cord 10 feet of 1/2" rope for Swiss seat or Swiss rappel seat (for helo rescue) 2 locking carabiners (for helo rescue) handheld scanner small first aid kit cig. lighters space blanket hat with wide brim for sun shade watch with alarm and wrist compass rain poncho solar powered AM/FM radio the credit card size ones signal flares signal mirror 1 fixed blade knife Multi-Purpose Tool (Leatherman), (wear on belt for quick access) cash, credit cards may not work pen, pencil and paper notebook 1 extra rag tie a knot in one end to seperate your ass rag from the rest survival book night rescue strobe with IR lens GPS 1 good pair of wrap around style shooting glasses Cold weather coat 100 ft standard kernmantle line poncho liner 14 ar mags, a couple of smokes. small box of bullion cubes 1 lb coffe can empty to cook with. 4 contractor grade trash bags 15 ft of 5mm black plastic take all the bed down equipment, cookware plastic poncho ,liner etc put it in the bottom of the ruck. keep mags and jerky in front pouches pockets. youd be supprised what you can eat if you boil it in bullion cubes.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 7:28:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 7:31:53 AM EDT
You should set it up to your own specs, there is some sound advice above. But, I would recommend following one military procedure. Have a seperate rucksack and LBE. Keep all your creature comforts in the ruck that can be dumped when you have to fight. Your LBE should consist of nothing more than ammo, water and a knife. When I was in, they used to say "when it comes to slaughter, all you need is bullets and water".
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 7:32:38 AM EDT
My SHTF plan has changed since the arrival of wife and Kid 1 and Kid 2. Now, I'm not so mobile. My SHTF plan has basically two plans: Plan A - Stick it out: Suppose something goes bad and there are limited resources, but no immediate danger to my home. I plan to keep a powerless, waterless, heatless home running for as long as it takes. Plan B - Gotta move: God forbid somebody picks Indianapolis for something nasty, but my family and I may have to relocate quickly. That changes things quickly. Mobility (and range) is essential, so I pack accordingly. Most importantly, HAVE SOMEWHERE TO GO. I've got standing plans with friends and family around the US in case I need to move. That said, both of these plans don't rely on terrorism alone. Bad weather is much more likely to initiate either of these plans.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 8:03:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 8:08:05 AM EDT
I alwasys set it up so I had one MRE per day for my nitetime meal. Breakfast was instant coffee and oatmeal, lunch was always a power bar type meal. I always broke the MREs down and got rid of the excess cardbord and stuff in them, made them pack much smaller, but changes their shelf life. But then again I was not dealing with SHTF, but pre-mission activities.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 8:13:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2002 8:24:20 AM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
Bingo. SJSAMPLE is the lucky winner, because he has just uttered the majic words,"HAVE SOMEWHERE TO GO. Or I'll condense it down to one word. NETWORKING No man is an island. Your best bet, If you live in a major city, likely to be a target...MOVE, It's just that simple. Now I know, that many of you out there, hold high paying jobs in major cities and enjoy the cosmopolitan lifestyle, but we are talking about retreating here and if you live in any of the top 10 to twenty Cities in the USA, your chances of being killed in the event of a man made disaster, such as bio terrorism or a nuclear attack, Go up expodentialy. I'm sorry, but thats the ugly truth of the matter. You might get enough warning, to give you time to retreat to a pre thought out location, but I would not count on it. Your best bet is small town America. Move there before SHTF or my Favorite Acronym TEOTWAWKI (The-End-Of-The-World-As-We-Know-It)comes about. Move there long enough before, that you have time to get to know the people who live around you. Make your self a indespensible member of the community. Join the local volinteer fire dept, Go take EMT courses and meet people in your local emergency services, get hooked up to be a county storm spotter. Go shoot where the local cops shoot if it's public, put in an ap to be a county reserve deputy. our cave man ancestors did not clump together in tribal groups because they liked the way large groups of people, packed into a cave smelled, they did it because they understood, that you chances as part of a small group, were far better, than going it alone.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 8:35:01 AM EDT
I guess I should clarify that I have no intent of playing Primitive Man. We have family farm property in one of the southern states, and the house on it is in excellent condition and has been out of occupancy for only three years. Yank the sheets off the furniture, stock the fridge, and it's ready to go. There is adequate land for farming (it IS a farm, aftera all) and there is plenty of game as well. Walk out the back door and in five minutes you're walking through pine forest that has lots of deer trails. Got a clean lake, too, and it's stocked. With that in mind, I think I could go a lot lighter than I first thought. Great. Allows me to bring more ammo instead, for backyard plinking! Since I'm not likely to be walking across two states to get there, I'll assume I'm driving. That allows me to bring decent food, blankets, clothing, minigun, etc. Still, I do want to set up a pack that would at least allow maybe a week's worth of camping and self-sufficiency. I'll evaluate that list (posted earlier) and see what works for me. A friend of mine deals in surplus. He's got a complete platoon early warning system, (tripwires and sensors) among other various olive drab goodies. I may do some shopping at his place. CJ
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 9:04:10 AM EDT
Very informative thread. I have a "bug-out" pack that is a little lacking but do have the following items (among many others): USGI soft canteen (2 qt.) Water purification tablets Coffee filters (to put over opening of canteen to keep out silt, slime, creepy-crawlies, and stuff as I fill canteen) All kinds of different matches Starter logs Fishing line, hooks, lead sinkers Insect repellent A really good knife (Kbar) and sharpener brown tarp to collect rainwater/dew and provide shelter etc.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 9:18:39 AM EDT
WATER !! WATER!!! WATER!!!! Everything else is second. You die in days without water!! Invest in a good water filter system. I have a British Berkfeld , used by the Red Cross and others. Will filter approx 30,000 gallons , about the size of a crockpot, cost approx $250. If you think you can just drink the lake or river water you are WRONG!! You will catch some crap that will make you wish you were dead and then you will die anyway. If you are planing to drive out you MUST have a 4X4 vehicle. I live in Alabama and have seen the evacs from the coast prior to a oncoming hurricane and the Interstate is a parking lot. The only movement is the vehicles that can move into the medium and shoulders and go. 2 wheel drive cars are stuck in the roadway traffic and those that try to go "off road" get stuck in the mud quickly. The 4X4 just go around them. The State Troopers (Cops) just let them go , after all the mission is to get people away from the coast asap. If you had to evac a large city you will encounter much the same type of traffic. You will also need to carry extra fuel in 5 gallon cans , even if you are moving at 10 - 15 mph in 4X4 in the medium you are not going to get great mileage and you may spend a long time just sitting with the motor running. As far as the rest of the items needed , the list CAN be endless , just think KISS
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 9:45:48 AM EDT
The condoms (non lubricated) are used for carrying water should a pilot and/or air crew should have to try to survive when their aircraft is shot down. The non lubricated condoms are part of their survival pack which is pretty small. They have to carry their survival pack in their survival vest. Now on bugging out if the SHFT. Do you have an escape route in mind? Remember, you will not be the only one with bugging out on your mind. Did you happen to see the movie Independence Day? Imagine trying to get out of big city when everyone else is trying to get out. What kind of vehicle do you have? Is it suitable for a real adventure not just going out for the weekend? Does your vehicle need a computer to function? How much gas mileage does your vehicle get? Do you have an extra gas tank? The fuel we have today does not last very long. It starts to break down. There are some additives you can buy to extend the life of the fuel.(My memory is not what it use to be. I do not remember what the additive is called.)I also do not remember but there is a pulse that comes from a nuclear explosion that will shut your non computerized vehicle down. I believe that they have weapons (or on the verge of having weapons) that can generate that kind of pulse. Imagine what a pulse would do to your computer as well as all other electronics. How much ammo do you have? How much ammo do you need? Can you carry it all in your vehicle? How much can YOU carry? The Romans use to go out and bury caches of food and supplies before they went out on a campaign. Before trekking out they would send envoys and bury supplies. That way when the main force would go out they had the supplies waiting. That way they did not have to carry enough supplies to last a year or so. What you have to do is figure out when to bug out and when to stay put. Bugging out sounds romantic though. Yanqui
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 9:51:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 9:54:52 AM EDT
Don't take any risks you don't have to. Have a plan with contingencies but only do what you HAVE to.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 10:00:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2002 10:04:30 AM EDT by MarineGrunt]
A warm sleeping bag should be added to this list. Space blankets are cool, but they won't cut it up here in da nort doncha know... Oh, another thing- a big ass can of mace isn't a bad idea for defense against predators and other "unwanted visitors."
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 10:06:46 AM EDT
No tent, no sleeping bag? Oh man...I'm gonna miss my warm cozzy bed. :)
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 10:23:26 AM EDT
[http://www.us-rsog.org/] Try this link, I hope I did it right. Go to equiptment on the survival side. More info there than you should ever need. fullclip
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 10:32:57 AM EDT
[url]http://www.us-rsog.org[url]
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 10:56:15 AM EDT
[url]www.us-rsog.org[/url]
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 10:56:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2002 10:58:38 AM EDT by toaster]
[url]http://www.us-rsog.org[/url] Crap!! Beaten to it!!
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 11:08:32 AM EDT
Thanks for the help. Beer, nascar, and computers don't mix[:D] fullclip
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 11:29:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: I always laugh when I see the inclusion of condems in a BOB list! What's up with THAT? [:D]
View Quote
Typicaly, they are used to carry water. Fill one up, put it in a spare sock (for protection) in your pack.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 12:26:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MDS:
Originally Posted By DScott: I always laugh when I see the inclusion of condems in a BOB list! What's up with THAT? [:D]
View Quote
Typicaly, they are used to carry water. Fill one up, put it in a spare sock (for protection) in your pack.
View Quote
A condom? AND a sock? I'd think a canteen or a camelback bladder would be more secure. Anybody ever try this? Seems like a VERY last ditch water carrier...
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:19:30 PM EDT
[b]Aimless, Probably everyone who is looking at this has already read it, but if you haven't, the classic SHTF novel is "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, and all you guys with poodle shooter .223s, be sure to read "Footfall" by the same authors with another SHTF scenario to see why you'll regret your choice of firearm.[/b] I have never read ethier of these books and I am interested why in your words the 223's are a poor choice. From the things I have read and learned an intermediate cal is a disirable choice offering more power than a sub gun in a hand gun cal. in range and stopping power. And the full rifle cal weapons are good chocies for long range shots I would venture to say over 500 yards or so. One of the reasons the US went to the .223 is they found in WWII the average shot was only 0-200 yards and most of the guns of that day were set to shoot out to 1000 yards. And they kept this line of thought till the end of the Koren War, even then they had started to change by selecting the .308 in the Magizine fed M14 over the older M1A 8 round clip fed weapon. Both of these are similar cartridges ballisticly speaking. And even then they found the ranges of the average rifle man shots were similar to those of WWII. At the turn of Veit-Nam the US was begining to adopt the 5.56 in the armorlite ar15 design or m16A1 in an intermediate cal. and they also began to change the training tactics which lead to many more changes too today with the adoption of the M16a2,a3 and M4. I shot my deer this year at 450 yards with a .243 Win. while standing broad side to me would have never tried for a running shot with any cal at that range. I have all ways thought a well planned hit with any cal is better than a miss with any soposed super cal out there. And for the ar shooters if you think the .223 is too small look at this web site [b]www.tromix.com [/b] and check out the .458 SOCOM, it would turn an ar into a very good brush gun comparable to a .444 marlin or .45-70 Gov. I want one but my budget only allows for so much this year.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:50:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:29:17 PM EDT
Just remember the very famous "last" message sent by a battle field commander (I'm sure I'm gonna fuck up the exactness of the quote - but you'll get the gist of it). AM IN DIRE NEED OF AMMUNITION, SUPPLIES ARE CRITICALLY LOW, MAKE EVERY HASTE TO SEND MORE AMMUNITION. - General George Armstrong Custer - battle of the Little Bighorn
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:52:23 PM EDT
Following up on that thought, you can carry nearly twice as much 5.56 ammo as you can .308 or 30-06 for the same weight allowance. Or reduce your pack weight and carry the same number. I don't have any combat experience, but I think that if you atually NEED two 140 round battle packs in a combat situation, you really NEED to be somewhere else! At the very least, I hope you've got help coming, and quickly! CJ
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 2:13:03 PM EDT
Plenty of ammo and water. Food is of little importance becuase let's face it, if the SHTF to the point that you have to abandon ship there will be plenty of empty homes to plunder. I hate to sound like a thief but if the SHTF really happens, it'll be every man for himself. Focus on other items needed for survival, food is an easy item to come by. Ammo will be the main necessity, followed by water. We aren't talking about a week long camping trip, we're talking about survival of the fittest. It'll be dog eat dog and you better be the biggest baddest dog in the pound, or you're not gonna last long.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:58:46 PM EDT
Something that I can't believe hasn't been mentioned so far is having your gear in place to start with. If you have a location in mind, stock it before you have to use it. The same principle as having a disaster kit for natural disasters. If you own a home or a little log cabin deep in the Rocky or Appalachian mountains, then stock it with all the stuff you may need.....food, blankets, candles, generator, ammo, water purification tablets, firewood, or whatever you think you may need. The problem with this if you don't live there constantly, is having some wise guy steal it and it not be there if needed. Place all essentials in a good safe and bolt that sucker to the wall studs and floor. Another possibility would be to bury some of the stuff in water proof containers. This could also be beneficial for those that live in more populated areas where you can't hide your stuff away as easily. And if you have to drive to get to your location, plan different routes in the event you have to detour. And one of the most important things you can do is to discuss this with several family members or very close, dependable friends. It would be much easier to tough it if there is a group working together as a team, instead of an individual. If some type of terrorist attack or other disaster causes widespread chaos, you will probably have to defend what is your's from theives and vandals. One person cannot guard their retreat 24/7. Having a group would be much more versatile and effective. Just make sure you choose your group wisely because you want to know who you can rely on if it comes to such a gloom and doom situation.As far as packs, all I want is LBE, mags pouches, holster, a canteen w/ cover and a buttpack for toting maybe a blanket and a few MRE's. If you prepare supplies and have them placed in strategic locations, you will not need to haul a ton of gear around with you. That way you can travel faster and move lightly with basic essentials. Most of us aren't active military guys and hauling a ton of gear around will flat take the life outta most of us. Think of the guerrillas we are fighting in Afghanistan. They only pack a minimum of supplies because they have already cached tons of stuff in locations they picked out beforehand. That's how they escape so easily. They thought about such things and planned accordingly ahead of time. That's how they continue to survive on what appears as nothing more than a handful of supplies. Hope this helps with your planning and I hope you never have to use any of these ideas.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:14:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 7:15:16 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:51:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 9:03:13 AM EDT by matt45]
Aimless I will check out those books and the 458 upper just sounds fun no matter how you look at it. basicly a semi auto 45-70 govt. The only thing it would lack is the capablity to be hand loaded to 458 Win mag velocity's out of a single shot. Even so if I ever get one I could live with that. I took no offense to what you said about the 223 I was just a little confused. And since I have not read those books may be part of why I did not understand the joke. Has any one thought of this most of us could not afford the luxury to have a cabin unless we were part of a group although several years ago a person I worked with liked to fish and hunt by the missouri river and we lived several hours away. So he purchased a RV mobile home and found a private campground or farm to park and store it and his boat at when he would not be using it. On one hand he got his vacation cabin and also wheather he knew it or not a location to go to if he had too. Also he had built in securtiy wtih the rental place he found to store it so he had less concern about his hunting and fishing equipment. Also he would have secondary transportation with the RV it self. One the main concern should be sheltering in place if at all possible. Moving my wife and baby would be tough. And by planning to shelter in place a person could store food and water and weapoons more effectively and not have to worry as much about having it stolen while you were gone. It is still a good idea to have a place to go to if you had too. From the Govt and here to help. [pistol]
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