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Posted: 3/7/2002 8:33:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2002 8:45:12 AM EDT by warlord]
This is a follow up of the thread on the shooting at "Why Did He Shoot Me?" FBI Shoots Eagle Scout [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=98105[/url] ============================================================ [img]http://www.sunspot.net/media/thumbnails/photo/2002-03/2203903.jpg[/img] FBI apologizes in shooting of man mistaken for robber [url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-te.ar.shoot07mar07.story?coll=bal%2Dhome%2Dheadlines[/url] FBI apologizes in shooting of man mistaken for robber Top Baltimore agent pledges investigation By Gail Gibson and Laura Barnhardt Sun Staff March 7, 2002 Baltimore's top FBI agent made an unusual public apology yesterday for the shooting Friday of an unarmed Pasadena man whom federal agents had mistakenly identified as a bank robbery suspect. But she refused to discuss the incident in detail, saying that could jeopardize open investigations. "Let me express our sincere sorrow for this unfortunate accident," said Lynne A. Hunt, special agent in charge of the FBI's local office. "I want this community to know we will do everything necessary to complete a full investigation of the facts." While FBI and Anne Arundel County police officials remained tight-lipped about the shooting, law enforcement sources said the mix-up might have begun when FBI agents lost contact with an informant who was using a cell phone to guide them to the robbery suspect's car, a red sedan. The informant's cell phone lost power, leaving agents without updates while the informant looked for a pay phone, the sources said. FBI and local police officials would not confirm or comment on that account. In the FBI's first extensive comments about the shooting of Joseph Charles Schultz, Hunt said only that the red Pontiac Grand Am in which Schultz and his girlfriend were riding was similar to the one a robbery suspect was reported to be driving. She also said the couple had "similar characteristics" to the suspect and his female companion that day. Hunt, who has headed the local 200-agent office for nearly two years, would not release other details about events that led to Friday's shooting. Schultz, 20, was hit in the face by a single bullet from an M-4 assault rifle. Schultz, according to his lawyer, was shot while reaching to unbuckle his seat belt to comply with an FBI agent's order to get out of the car. Schultz remained in serious but stable condition yesterday at Maryland Shock Trauma Center, awaiting reconstructive surgery to repair damage to his shattered right cheek and jaw and to his nasal passages. His girlfriend, 16-year-old Krissy Harkum of Pasadena, was not wounded in the incident. The FBI's comments came as the agency faced increasing pressure to fully account for the shooting. In Washington, a top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee said in a statement to The Sun that the incident "raises a lot of questions that the FBI is going to have to answer publicly." -- continued --
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 8:33:46 AM EDT
"I'll monitor not only what happened in the shooting, but also the way the FBI investigates one of its own in this situation, so that past mistakes don't recur," said Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, one of the agency's toughest watchdogs. An uncle of Schultz, Willis Shelley of Pasadena, said the family also is closely watching the case. "I think [the agents] are thinking they're going to walk on this one, and I'm hoping they don't," said Shelley. "Joe's a nice kid - he's one of those people you'd always root for." Shopping trip Schultz and Harkum were returning from an afternoon shopping trip when federal agents in plain clothes and an unmarked car stopped the Pontiac she was driving. Joseph C. Asesnio, an attorney for the Schultz family, has said two agents approached the car on both sides, each carrying a rifle. Shootings by FBI agents are relatively rare. In 2001, there were only 11 intentional shootings nationwide, and three of those involved dogs. Hunt said that did not mean the agency would brush off Friday's incident. "Let me assure you, this is not something we take lightly," Hunt said as a number of grim-faced agents watched her news conference from the back of a room at the agency's office in Woodlawn. The agent who fired at Schultz has been voluntarily placed on administrative leave, with pay, Hunt said. Three other agents involved in the stop had no change in their assignments, she said. FBI officials have refused to release the agents' names, citing an internal policy that strictly guards agents' identities in shooting incidents, in part to protect them from possible retaliation. Hunt said releasing details about the shooting could taint continuing investigations by an independent FBI review team and by Anne Arundel police and prosecutors. County to investigate Yesterday, county Police Chief P. Thomas Shanahan promised an independent investigation of the shooting and said its outcome would not be influenced by pressure from the FBI. The review, led by two homicide detectives, is expected to be completed within 30 days. Kristin Riggin, a spokeswoman for the Arundel prosecutor's office, said that as in all police shooting investigations, prosecutors must first determine if a crime occurred and whether the case should be presented to a grand jury. The state's attorney also can determine that a police shooting was accidental or justified, and that no crime occurred, without taking the case to a grand jury. -- continued --
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 8:34:17 AM EDT
The FBI's review will be forwarded to the Justice Department's civil rights division, which also determines whether charges should be brought. Among the details the federal probe will consider is whether the agents involved in the shooting followed Justice Department guidelines for the use of deadly force - a policy adopted in 1995 after sharp criticism of the FBI's fatal 1992 standoff with white supremacist Randy Weaver in Ruby Ridge, Idaho. Under that policy, federal law enforcement agents may use deadly force only when they have "reasonable" belief that there is an "imminent danger of death or serious physical injury" to agents or other people. The policy also states that deadly force "may not be used if an alternative reasonably appears to be sufficient to accomplish the law enforcement purpose." FBI agents are trained to shoot to kill, not to wound or disable a fleeing felon. Under the deadly force policy, agents also are specifically instructed not to fire warning shots or to fire weapons at moving vehicles. Hunt said yesterday that one of the agents on the scene was a trained medical technician, who began administering first aid to Schultz immediately after the shooting - countering concerns raised by Shelley and other family members that Schultz and Harkum were thrown to the ground and refused medical treatment for as long as 40 minutes. According to county 911 dispatch records, the Fire Department was called to respond to the shooting at 6:12 p.m., and the first units arrived by 6:15 p.m. Paramedics arrived two minutes later. By 6:22 p.m., paramedics had finished their assessment and called for a helicopter to transport Schultz to the shock trauma center. The paramedics were en route to the trauma unit by 6:53, according to the records. The shooting has raised some concerns for county police. Shanahan hopes the police and FBI will review procedures for using marked patrol cars to back up plain-clothes agents on traffic stops. He said Friday's stop using an unmarked car did not violate protocol, but added, "Using a marked car and an officer in uniform is a clear symbol of authority. Sometimes people don't know for sure if they're being stopped by an officer." Shanahan said his department also is looking into the notification process used by the FBI on Sunday night, when county police apprehended Michael J. Blottenberger Jr. of Baltimore, the suspect in the Feb. 20 robbery of an Allfirst Bank branch. Police said FBI agents, following Blottenberger in an unmarked car Sunday night, identified themselves only after county officers began moving to stop him. Although the FBI is not required to inform local jurisdictions of its operations, Shanahan said the department is examining whether there could have been a better notification process. -- continued --
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 8:35:06 AM EDT
"Often our desire to protect the public overlaps," he said. "They're trying to catch bank robbers. We're trying to catch bank robbers." Sun staff writer Andrea F. Siegel contributed to this article. Copyright © 2002, The Baltimore Sun
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 8:44:33 AM EDT
Who's taking bets on whether the shooter gets off completely free or not?
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 8:46:47 AM EDT
Look at one of the unrelated side articles on that page. Good news in court. Here's the link [url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-ar.gun07mar07.story?coll=bal%2Dcrime%2Dheadlines[/url]
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 8:53:31 AM EDT
[i] Shootings by FBI agents are relatively rare. In 2001, there were only 11 intentional shootings nationwide, and three of those involved dogs. Hunt said that did not mean the agency would brush off Friday's incident. [/i] Anyone want to calculate their error rate, at only 11 shootings per year?
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:02:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:13:21 AM EDT
Group hug!!! [BD]
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:22:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: well heck, if they said they are sorry I guess it's all better.
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A spokeswoman for the FBI also promised a complete investigation ======================================================= [url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-fbi0307.photo?coll=bal%2Dhome%2Dheadlines[/url] Mistaken identity: Lynne A. Hunt, special agent in charge of the FBI's Baltimore office, promises a full investigation of the incident
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:23:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Norm_G: Who's taking bets on whether the shooter gets off completely free or not?
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No Bet...[IMG]http://www.grillsportverein.de/smilies/contrib/corky/smilies23.gif[/IMG] "Administrative Leave" aka, "Vacation With Pay" while the "investigation" aka,"How can we cover this up?" continues. [IMG]http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:32:14 AM EDT
I think the FBI should give the M4 that was used in the shooting to the victim as a consolation prize, along with paperwork making it legal. Plus a few million bucks for the trouble, of course. And the badge of the agent who shot him, and his car, his house, his wife...well, depending on what she looks like... I've got to ask...what's with these smilies that show up that aren't in the legend? CJ
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:49:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Norm_G: Who's taking bets on whether the shooter gets off completely free or not?
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I forsee a promotion and a marksmanship decoration. Possible appointment to the Lon Hourinuchi Tactical Safety Squad. [b]"Let me assure you, this is not something we take lightly," Hunt said [/b] ...and Janet Reno axccepted full responsibility for Waco. Did it change anything?
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 10:05:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SNorman: [i] Shootings by FBI agents are relatively rare. In 2001, there were only 11 intentional shootings nationwide, and three of those involved dogs. Hunt said that did not mean the agency would brush off Friday's incident. [/i] Anyone want to calculate their error rate, at only 11 shootings per year?
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as opposed to UNintentional shootings?
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 10:11:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2002 10:11:46 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Originally Posted By SNorman: [i] Shootings by FBI agents are relatively rare. In 2001, there were only 11 intentional shootings nationwide, and three of those involved dogs. Hunt said that did not mean the agency would brush off Friday's incident. [/i]
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How many [b]un[/b]intentional shootings? Av. Edit: drat! Lurker beat me to it.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 10:21:39 AM EDT
Just imagine if the trigger-happy FBI agent killed the guy. Either way, it will be business as usual. The feds are never guilty of anything. Just ask them.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 10:22:35 AM EDT
Maybe with John Ashcroft as the AG the FBI will actually be forced to do a real investigation? Under Janet Reno another gallon of whitewash would have simply been used.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 10:43:32 AM EDT
Why do these clowns always get PAID leave after they seriously foul up? I bet us taxpayers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on training for these guys. For what? Let alone the fact that the agent gets his identity concealed to prevent retaliation. The victims' name is all over the paper. Where is his privacy? Where are the apologists today? Still can't defend that which is indefensible?
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 11:00:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hardcase: Why do these clowns always get PAID leave after they seriously foul up? I bet us taxpayers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on training for these guys. For what? Let alone the fact that the agent gets his identity concealed to prevent retaliation. The victims' name is all over the paper. Where is his privacy? Where are the apologists today? Still can't defend that which is indefensible?
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Remember, one of the jobs of any gov't. is to protect itself, ie., ensure its own survival. It seems that over time, this is the one overriding principle that gov't. adheres to. Any goverment.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 11:12:05 AM EDT
I wonder if you drive a wooden stake thru its heart will it die?
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 11:45:13 AM EDT
Lonnie sure gets around! [img]http://www.zpub.com/notes/horiuchi2.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:47:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: I've got to ask...what's with these smilies that show up that aren't in the legend?
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People find them elsewhere on the net and bring them in using an [ IMG ] tag. For example, http://www.grillsportverein.de/smilies/contrib/corky/smilies23.gif is the URL for [img]http://www.grillsportverein.de/smilies/contrib/corky/smilies23.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 2:04:24 AM EDT
FBI officials have refused to release the agents' names, citing an internal policy that strictly guards agents' identities in shooting incidents, in part to protect them from possible retaliation.
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So how did we find out Horiuchi's name? Maybe if these peckerwoods did have to worry about their names being released after shooting someone, the threat of retaliation would moderate their urges to shoot someone.
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