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Posted: 3/6/2002 3:33:45 PM EDT
Anyone here who takes these things worry about getting your "file" flagged with mental problems that could cause you gun owning problems in the future. I don't take the things (there has to be something better than getting high to help with problems), but I've got an uncle who recently started. It really bugs me that he's taking the things. He even suggested that I might look into them. Stupid. I'm thinking of trying to scare him out of it by telling him that his guns might be grabbed because of it some day.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 3:49:26 PM EDT
This is going to be a touchy subject. I can't address the legality (or future) legalities other than I believe that currently the criteria is whether or not you've been in an mental institution. Anti-depressants are so common that I doubt they would affect gun-ownership. If your uncle needs them, then he should take them. Serious depression is not something that should be ignored. Just my .02
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 3:52:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 3:56:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:01:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 4:05:09 PM EDT by sgtar15]
First of a person doesn't get "high" from taking anti-depressants. All they really do is balance out any chemical imbalances in the brain. If your Uncle has a legitimate reason for being on them then leave him alone. It is between him and his doctor, and his doctor probably has a better idea of what is going on then you do. Second, it will not effect his gun rights at all. A while back ago I had an accidental drug overdose due to a bad reaction I had to some muscle relaxant pills I was taking. The EMT's originally listed my condition as an over dose and while at the hospital I had to see a shrink. They thought I was trying to kill myself and I had to convince them it was all an accident. This all went on my permanent medical record. I have bought several firearms since then and it never has been an issue. Third, I have a close friend who is on anti depressants and it doesn't make him high. As a matter of fact taking them was the best thing he has ever done. He is now a more normal functioning member of society than he ever was before. By taking the pills he is more active, stable and responsible than ever before. So if your not a doctor don't try to play one on www.AR15.com. If you really want to help your uncle try supporting him instead of telling him what he should and shouldn't do. When people tell me what I should and shouldn't do I usually get a little depressed too. S[:(]g[:(]t[:(]a[:(]r[:(]1[:(]5 PS. No flame intended
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:04:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 4:05:05 PM EDT by AlClenin]
I just don't think he really needs these things. What he is depressed about is the death of his brother (my dad) 8 months ago. That seems like a sadness that you shouldn't be drugging yourself out of. I even see it as disrespectful to my dad. No matter how shitty I feel I won't drug it away. The worry about gun rights is also a factor.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:07:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: First of a person doesn't get "high" from taking anti-depressants. All they really do is balance out any chemical imbalances in the brain
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So is smoking weed just correcting an imbalance (no THC) in the brain?
PS. No flame intended
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None perceived. Thanks for the ideas.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:10:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin: I just don't think he really needs these things. What he is depressed about is the death of his brother (my dad) 8 months ago. That seems like a sadness that you shouldn't be drugging yourself out of. I even see it as disrespectful to my dad. No matter how shitty I feel I won't drug it away. The worry about gun rights is also a factor.
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Maybe you don't need them....but that doesn't mean your uncle doesn't!!! A family members death affects different people different ways!!! And it doesn't mean he is weak eather!! I am sorry for your families loss. But as you need to grieve and deal with the loss your way, he needs to deal with it his way. If you make too big of an issue about it then it will just drive you two farther apart. DO you really want that right now? * months is not a long time.....some people take years to grieve over a lost family member!! Sgtar15
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:13:44 PM EDT
I suggest you talk to an actual doctor about anti depressants before you complete make up your mind. The weed statement was way of base and has no corelation to what anti depressants do. Remember, alcohol is still the most commonly used drug in america today. Do you drink when thinking about you loss?? SGtar15
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:50:01 PM EDT
For many people who take antidepressants, it's like a diabetic taking oral medication or insulin to control what's going on in their body. The brain is another organ, like the pancreas or liver, and sometimes requires more than it's got to function well. P.S. Not everyone is you. They don't think like you, feel like you, or act like you. [;)] Good luck with your uncle.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:59:15 PM EDT
AlClenin, You might want to consider taking something to bolster your ability to reason.
No matter how shitty I feel I won't drug it away.
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You never take cold or sinus meds? I suppose you let the dentist drill without novocain. I imagine if you ever need major surgery you'll tell the doc "Never mind the gas, Doc, just cut away." You might consider supporting your uncle instead of judging him. As for anti-depressants, I'd much rather see someone take those than drink alcohol.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 5:01:18 PM EDT
I've never read that anti-depressants cause anyone harm. Nor have I read that depression specifically causes anyone to cause harm to others. I have read lots on the subject. Depression as I understand it (and I have experianced it) is merely a state of mental "loss of self worth". I read alot about this when I went through it myself. I personally never felt that I was threatened by others that would cause any kind of aggressive response. I know that anti-depressants cause the brain to "rewire" itself. It's part of a drug induced healing process. I've never taken them but my wife is on them now. I definately see them beneficial to her by correcting her self esteem problems. My vote is give him some room and support. Depression is definately a treatable disease and he will benefit from the meds. Hope that helps.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 5:07:12 PM EDT
maybe he loved his brother more than you loved your dad.you just cant tell someone how they are supposed to feel.if he and his doctor agree it will help him, leave him the hell alone. my dollar two ninety eight cents worth! [moon]
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 5:07:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 5:23:12 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By AlClenin: I just don't think he really needs these things. What he is depressed about is the death of his brother (my dad) 8 months ago. That seems like a sadness that you shouldn't be drugging yourself out of.
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AlClenin, I'm going to lay this out hard and cold and I'll take the heat. Your post above is from a position of ignorance. Now I didn't say stupidity (those who cannot/will not learn) but ignorance (those who are capable but have not yet learned). As some have said above depression is caused from a chemical imbalance within the brain. This is a medical disorder not unlike a broken arm but in this case the brain's ability to properly balance chemicals is broken. That's the bad news. With today's trained Psychiatrist, remember these are medical doctors and we're speaking of the medical side of psychiatry, and with the development of drugs capable of assisting the brain in reestablishing chemical balance your relative can be readily helped. Lastly let me tell you with factual certainty; untreated depression is the number one cause of suicide. Your uncle needs medical help for his medical condition; support and understanding from those around him.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 5:25:22 PM EDT
As to firearms, about the only area where your uncle is likely to be impacted would be in acquiring a concealed weapons permit.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 5:29:49 PM EDT
AlClenin - It seems a little strange that your father's brother is taking the loss of YOUR father a lot worse than you are. Maybe there are a few things going on that you just don't understand. Such as the fact that your uncle's problem simple became accentuated by your father's death. And the fact that he thinks you too may need medication might be something to think about. Maybe you ought to sit down and have a nephew to uncle talk with him.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 5:51:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 6:07:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 10mmFan: AlClenin - It seems a little strange that your father's brother is taking the loss of YOUR father a lot worse than you are. Maybe there are a few things going on that you just don't understand. Such as the fact that your uncle's problem simple became accentuated by your father's death. And the fact that he thinks you too may need medication might be something to think about. Maybe you ought to sit down and have a nephew to uncle talk with him.
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I didn't say anything about him taking it worse than me. I said I'm not ready to take drugs to ease it. Here is the thing. From what I've read about grieving, it seems like 8 months is a little soon to be thinking that there is something wrong. Isn't it normal to be depressed for a while after the death of a loved one? That is how I see it. Maybe if he is still feeling this way after a couple of years then it would be an indicator that he's not getting over the loss in a normal way and may need some help. Time scales are messed up with this sort of thing, so it may not be possible to say how long is "normal" but there has to be some time. Would it be okay to start taking them two weeks after the funeral? When does normal emotion become a "chemical imbalance"? I absolutely haven't been giving him a hard time at all about it. I haven't said anything to him really. I was at his place and he mentioned that he had started taking the stuff, and I said "is that a good idea?" he said, "we'll see, I'm going to try it. You might want to look into it." I said "well, I don't know" and then changed the subject. That is the sum total of the conversation. I know better than to start yelling things like "pussy you don't need drugs" to him. I figured I may as well kick it around with a bunch of pretty much anonymous folks here instead. Nifty huh? Whoever pointed out that there may be more going on then the loss of a brother, i.e. the loss was the "straw that broke the camels back" may be on to something. That is something I didn't think about. Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 6:26:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: I suppose you let the dentist drill without novocain. I imagine if you ever need major surgery you'll tell the doc "Never mind the gas, Doc, just cut away
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I will never voluntarily submit to a major surgery. If I have to go under it ain't getting done. I've been to the dentist once in my life, 11 years ago. I had one cavity and fixing it hurt so damn much I won't do it again. I just take good care of the old choppers since then and haven't have a pain. I think there is a difference between things like aspirin and anti-biotics where you take something for a short time until the problem goes away and something like anti-depressents where it is not so clear whether there is something wrong or just an unpleasent emotion. I suppose if i really understood brain chemistry I'd see things different. I just wonder though. It seems like all of these drugs are "seritonin reuptake inhibitors" whatever that means. Isn't it strange that these things are perscribed for so many different things. Depression, anxiety, smoking cessation. What if that is just the emotion chemical in the brain? How do they know. It's not like you can put a dipstick into the skull and measure the stuff.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 6:37:18 PM EDT
They are not considered long term solutions. The anti-depressants are also used for reasons other than depression. Try atrial fib. for an ailment. Inconjunction with other meds, they work. A good DR. will work with you to get you off any meds that are going to cause loss of reasoning, etc. I wouldn't be too harsh to judge him because death has a way of bringing your own life into a different perpective.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 6:39:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By AlClenin: I just don't think he really needs these things. What he is depressed about is the death of his brother (my dad) 8 months ago. That seems like a sadness that you shouldn't be drugging yourself out of.
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AlClenin, I'm going to lay this out hard and cold and I'll take the heat. Your post above is from a position of ignorance. Now I didn't say stupidity (those who cannot/will not learn) but ignorance (those who are capable but have not yet learned). As some have said above depression is caused from a chemical imbalance within the brain. This is a medical disorder not unlike a broken arm but in this case the brain's ability to properly balance chemicals is broken. That's the bad news. With today's trained Psychiatrist, remember these are medical doctors and we're speaking of the medical side of psychiatry, and with the development of drugs capable of assisting the brain in reestablishing chemical balance your relative can be readily helped. Lastly let me tell you with factual certainty; untreated depression is the number one cause of suicide. Your uncle needs medical help for his medical condition; support and understanding from those around him.
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AlClenin, I've just read your posts under the "Chinese Cloning" topic. Clearly you understand "reuptake inhibitors" if you have such knowledge as that displayed in your 'cloning' posts. Which begs the question - why this post?
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 6:44:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 6:50:33 PM EDT by JIMBEAM]
Slightly OT but relevant On March 6, 2001, one year ago today, my twin brother choose to take his own life with a self-inflicted gunshot to the right temple. I feel if he had stayed on his medication this would not have happened. I believe he felt as you do that medication was a crutch. I can say that ending his life definitely had more of a impact on his life then take meds and continuing to seek help. He was a Navy Corpsman so he knew something about the symptoms of mental illness and the effect of medications. He just couldn't or wouldn't accept the fact that he had a problem that he could not handle on his own.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 6:52:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: Slightly OT but relevant On March 6, 2001 my twin brother choose to take his own life with a self-inflicted gunshot to the right temple. I feel if he had stayed on his medication this would not have happened. I believe he felt as you do that medication was a crutch. I can say that ending his life definitely had more of a impact on his life then take meds and continuing to seek help. He was a Navy Corpsman so he knew something about the symptoms of mental illness and the effect of medications. He just couldn't or wouldn't accept the fact that he had a problem that he could not handle on his own.
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Relevant. Highly relevant. (I'm very sorry to hear about your brother. A Navy Corpsman; a very fine group.)
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:00:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 7:40:11 PM EDT by AlClenin]
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: AlClenin, I've just read your posts under the "Chinese Cloning" topic. Clearly you understand "reuptake inhibitors" if you have such knowledge as that displayed in your 'cloning' posts. Which begs the question - why this post?
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I think I didn't clearly indicate what was quoted material from the link, sorry about that. Look again. My understanding of these drugs is pretty much limited to seeing a zoloft or something commercial with the little dots flying between two "brain cells". This doesn't mean I'm stupid (some of you may argue with that). I know there are ways to measure things in the body. I use anti-biotics and aspirin when needed. I've taken (and passed!) plenty of science classses. I'm just a little skeptical of the science behind mind altering drugs. It seems that the only real way to find out what is going on is to ask the person taking them how they feel. How do you tell if someone is lying? It seems a little different than hard science. You can infect two people with a bacteria that shows up in the blood under a microscope give one a placebo and the other an antibiotic and then look at the blood and verify that the bug is gone in one and there in the other. Controlled experiment. The little bit that I've read about the testing of mind altering drugs makes me think things may not be so clear cut there. Also, this stuff is [b]BIG[/b] business, and (tinfoil hat on) hence a healthy dose of suspicion is probably not a bad thing. I made the post because I wanted to talk about these things and hear some arguments about the "treating a condition" vs. "drowning your emotions with drugs" argument that I've been kicking around. I added the gun rights part of the question because, hey its AR15.com, and the uncertainty about how such things may affect my [s]right[/s] legal ability to own a gun makes even considering using them even more distasteful. My uncle is also a gun lover and I worry about him getting screwed over in the future because of this.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:03:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: Slightly OT but relevant On March 6, 2001, one year ago today, my twin brother choose to take his own life with a self-inflicted gunshot to the right temple. I feel if he had stayed on his medication this would not have happened. I believe he felt as you do that medication was a crutch. I can say that ending his life definitely had more of a impact on his life then take meds and continuing to seek help. He was a Navy Corpsman so he knew something about the symptoms of mental illness and the effect of medications. He just couldn't or wouldn't accept the fact that he had a problem that he could not handle on his own.
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It's been said already, but I just wanted to echo that this is not off topic at all, and I too am sorry to hear about it. Things are tough all over.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:15:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: First of a person doesn't get "high" from taking anti-depressants. All they really do is balance out any chemical imbalances in the brain. If your Uncle has a legitimate reason for being on them then leave him alone. It is between him and his doctor, and his doctor probably has a better idea of what is going on then you do. Second, it will not effect his gun rights at all. A while back ago I had an accidental drug overdose due to a bad reaction I had to some muscle relaxant pills I was taking. The EMT's originally listed my condition as an over dose and while at the hospital I had to see a shrink. They thought I was trying to kill myself and I had to convince them it was all an accident. This all went on my permanent medical record. I have bought several firearms since then and it never has been an issue. Third, I have a close friend who is on anti depressants and it doesn't make him high. As a matter of fact taking them was the best thing he has ever done. He is now a more normal functioning member of society than he ever was before. By taking the pills he is more active, stable and responsible than ever before. So if your not a doctor don't try to play one on www.AR15.com. If you really want to help your uncle try supporting him instead of telling him what he should and shouldn't do. When people tell me what I should and shouldn't do I usually get a little depressed too. S[:(]g[:(]t[:(]a[:(]r[:(]1[:(]5 PS. No flame intended
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Sing it sgtar15! I coudnt agree with you more,I dont understand why people consider being depressed as a psycho type of mind state. [u]Come for my guns.....I'll give you the bullets first![/u][50]
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:35:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 7:37:03 PM EDT by JIMBEAM]
Originally Posted By AlClenin:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: AlClenin, I've just read your posts under the "Chinese Cloning" topic. Clearly you understand "reuptake inhibitors" if you have such knowledge as that displayed in your 'cloning' posts. Which begs the question - why this post?
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I think I didn't clearly indicate what was quoted material from the link, sorry about that. Look again. My understanding of these drugs is pretty much limited to seeing a zoloft or something commercial with the little dots flying between two "brain cells". This doesn't mean I'm stupid (some of you may argue with that). I know there are ways to measure things in the body. I use anti-biotics and aspirin when needed. I've taken (and passed!) plenty of science classses. I'm just a little skeptical of the science behind mind altering drugs. It seems that the only real way to find out what is going on is to ask the person taking them how they feel. How do you tell if someone is lying? It seems a little different than hard science. You can infect two people with a bacteria that shows up in the blood under a microscope give one a placebo and the other an antibiotic and then look at the blood and verify that the bug is gone in one and there in the other. Controlled experiment. The little bit that I've read about the testing of mind altering drugs makes me think things may not be so clear cut there. Also, this stuff is [b]BIG[/b] business, and hence a healthy dose of suspicion is probably not a bad thing. I made the post because I wanted to talk about these things and hear some arguments about the "treating a condition" vs. "drowning your emotions with drugs" argument that I've been kicking around.
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It's not about drowning emotions. Serve or chronic depression is different than feeling down. When someone suffers from chronic depression it effects the way you perceive the world around them and they lose interest in everything. (The world suck, everyone hates me why go on.....) I agree that Doctors over-prescribe meds but they do have uses and should not be ruled out with out some thought. The drugs are not without side-effects but when the option is death they do have a use. People handle losses or stresses differently. It has nothing to do with strength or willpower. Perhaps your uncle need some help getting over his brother death and perhaps you don't need help. If you have some concerns about your health I suggest talking to a doctor or counselor. Note a counselor can't prescribe meds they have to refer you to a doctor I work with several retired military folks including former a Navy SEAL and I can say my brother was one of the toughest men I have meet. He could not overcome server depression on his own.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:41:51 PM EDT
AlClenin Thanks I don't enjoy going to the doctor or taking medications without good reason. I don't take pain medication when prescribed by doctors unless I really need it. So I can kind of see your point but I am curious why you won't submit to surgery if needed. Jimbeam
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 5:47:53 AM EDT
Couldn't help but throw another twist in the post here- Had a HUGE discussion with a good friend of mine on a similar subject last night. Taking these drugs (zoloft, in particular) for stress. My contention was that the cause of the stress itself needed to be dealt with, and that the zoloft or whatever only fixes the symptoms. Yeah, the stress gets relieved, but the cause of the stress goes on. I'm not referring to major depression, but everyday stress (work, school, people). Her point was that just as you take ibuprofin after working out and having sore muscles, or aspirin for a headache, you take this stuff for stress. I left the conversation somewhere inbetween, I guess if it makes someone feel better that's good, but I hate to see them used as a remedy for symptoms rather than the problem itself.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 6:27:41 AM EDT
Smokejumper - I doubt many doctors would prescribe Zoloft for short term or even long term stress. These types of drugs require at least 2-4 four weeks of gradually increasing doses to reach an adequate blood level. Few doctors have ever suffered the effects of debilitating clinical depression. Much as they try they can not truly understand the feelings that go on in the troubled mind. There is one exception though. Her name is Kay Redfield Jamison who wrote An Unquiet Mind (I think that's correct). That was her first book and like most over-educated leftist her ensuing works veer off into areas she should have left alone. If you suffer or know anyone who does her first book is a must read.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 6:34:02 AM EDT
Al, this is going to be the best advice that you get today: You re-read the replies from sgtar15, DoubleFeed, 5subslr5, et al & you remember them. Then, print out this thread & re-read it occasionally. The medical community is still in it's infancy in terms of knowledge of the brain & brain diseases like depression. Your stigmatization of depression is what keeps many people from seeking treatment. Hopefully this is just one more step in your education. Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 6:45:41 AM EDT
I will never voluntarily submit to a major surgery. If I have to go under it ain't getting done.
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So... you'd rather die? [:\]
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 6:57:07 AM EDT
I tried to stay out of this because I am not an expert, but will tell my story. daughter 4 years ago(12 at the time) had clinical depression and was helped by a mild drug. The difference was noticed by her teachers and friends Company I worked for was severing people (randomly it appeared) and everyone was worried and on edge. 33 year old friend had Dr. put him on mild drug and he said it was like having 2 beers all the time. I had gotten to the point all I was doing was wasting oxygen so I asked the Dr. for the same mild drug (remember I suggested it not the Dr.) Broke it in half for 2 weeks to ramp up then started on the whole pill. It makes you have stomach cramps so the second night on the whole pill while sitting in the bathroom at 3AM I thought I would just go get my pistol and was trying to decide whether to put it under my chin or to my temple. Woke my wife up and told her, she stayed up all night watching me. (I also unloaded the gun and gave the ammo to her) IT WAS JUST THAT REAL. After the third day of crying my wife called our pastor, probably the most GOD fearing Christian man I have ever known. He came over and talked to me and I started tapering off the pills. Long story short: I had a spiritual problem. I had held bitterness against some people that had done a terrible thing to my dad 28 years ago. You will destroy yourself from the inside and not know it. Remember the story in the Bible where the king forgave a man of $4,000,000 and the man left and found another man that owed him $1,000 and had him thrown in prison. synopsis: If you have clinical depression (and it is real as evidenced by my daughter and my young friend) drugs will help. If you don't have clinical depression, based on my experience, anti-depressants will not help. Another Dr. and a counselor told me later the anti-depressant brought to the surface things that I had stuffed back for 28 years. disclaimer:this is not to be used as medical advise, but if anyone wants to e-mail me I will tell you how you can change your life for the better. blood pressure goes down, wife and children notice you are different and after a while people in the community notice you are not the same person.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 7:00:06 AM EDT
I would argue that his time would be very well spent in reading the words of a learned doctor who has rare, "FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE" of the affliction and then passing the words along.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 7:28:55 AM EDT
Okay... The simple fact is there are people who NEED this medication, and there are those who do not. I think that sometimes Doctors are too quick to prescribe anti-depressant drugs, just like there are people who are too quick to ask for them. IMO, I think there are FAR to many television commercials advertising all different sorts of "new quick fixes" for whatever ails you. A death in the family, or other tragic event, effects people differently, and it is [b]absurd[/b] to think in any other way. In the human mind, A+B does not always equal C. Just my .02 Tyler
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 7:49:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin: This doesn't mean I'm stupid (some of you may argue with that).
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I did not imply that you were stupid but I did imply that you were ignorant. I then carefully defined ignorant and will again. Ignorant, as I'm using the word, refers to those capable of learning but have not yet learned. We're all ignorant in many areas. ------------------------------------------------ Because the topic you posted is important - and probably not just to you - I'm going to take the time and try again. This reply will be TOO LONG and will be read by few but I just am too ignorant myself to give a condensed version. ----------------------------------------------- First and foremost: UNTREATED CLINICAL DEPRESSION IS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF SUICIDES. ----------------------------------------------- Body parts wear out. Knee joints, hip joints wear out. Brain parts also wear out. More below on this subject. Let's move to Law Enforcement personnel. Alcohol, the opiate of the masses, abuse is a very serious concern in the LEO community. Alcohol abuse is often a symptom of depression. I'm going to stay with LEO's although business executives, military personnel, etc., are just as affected. LEO's live a high-stress life - fact. LEO's are far more likely to die from "Eating-the-Gun" (suicide by any other name is still....) than from being shot by a dirt-bag - fact. Now we are all blessed, in varying degrees, with something we're all familiar with called the "Fight-or-Flight" syndrome. When faced with imminent danger, our adrenal glands begin to pump more adrenalin into the body giving us heightened physical capacity as we prepare to either fight the threat or flee the threat. (Additionally, our mind will begin to shut-down activity not necessary to survival. Indigestion stops, cellular repair stops, our eye sight begins to tunnel to exclude all but the threat, even our hearing will begin to diminish to prevent the brain from having to deal with extraneous noises. Many in battles will not remember hearing gun fire at all and others will remember only faint popping sounds -even when their own weapon is being fired - even when on "Rock N Roll.") Over time, and this varies with each and every individual, the brain simply no longer has the capacity to deal-out the proper mix of chemicals to continue as "normal' - what ever normal may be. Due to STRESS the chemical balancing part of the brain has worn out. The "Fight-or-Flight" syndrome, often brought on by stress; not real life-threatening threats, has been called upon once too often and simply can no longer properly respond. Zolof (sp ?) and drugs of this type force an increase in the needed chemicals - fact. Perhaps (perhaps not) you're one of those people who believe treatment for a chemical disorder is the sign of a WEAK person. No, those who seek help for chemical disorders are SMART people. Now you may continue through life condemning your Uncle or you might give understanding the science a shot. A modest amount of compassion and understanding wouldn't harm much either. Only you can make the decision. Tom Boothe (5subslr5)
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 10:46:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2002 10:47:24 AM EDT by ARlady]
i'd like to add this: anti-depressants are not mind altering. there is a difference between the mind and the brain. narcotics are mind-altering. think: altered state of consciousness. anti-depressants are not mind-altering. think: no altered state of consciousness. unlike narcotics, which are generally NOT used for mind/brain purposes (in the medical field at least [;)]), anti-depressants give your brain the things it needs to function properly. it puzzles me that people think so poorly of them, even calling them "crutches", as if that is such a horrible thing. if anti-depressants become the focus instead of part of the cure, then it's a bad thing. but if it's something to lean on while healing, that's not a bad thing. afterall, people with broken legs use crutches, don't they? do we look down on them for that????????
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 12:12:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 10mmFan: Smokejumper - I doubt many doctors would prescribe Zoloft for short term or even long term stress. These types of drugs require at least 2-4 four weeks of gradually increasing doses to reach an adequate blood level. Few doctors have ever suffered the effects of debilitating clinical depression. Much as they try they can not truly understand the feelings that go on in the troubled mind. There is one exception though. Her name is Kay Redfield Jamison who wrote An Unquiet Mind (I think that's correct). That was her first book and like most over-educated leftist her ensuing works veer off into areas she should have left alone. If you suffer or know anyone who does her first book is a must read.
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I'll head to the library this weekend and see if they've got this book. Sounds interesting (except for the "over-educated leftist" part).
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 12:23:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2002 12:25:01 PM EDT by AlClenin]
Originally Posted By JMO: Company I worked for was severing people (randomly it appeared) and everyone was worried and on edge. 33 year old friend had Dr. put him on mild drug and he said it was like having 2 beers all the time.
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Many of the people I've talked to about this have said something similar. Which is where I got the "drugging your sadness away" impression.
I had gotten to the point all I was doing was wasting oxygen so I asked the Dr. for the same mild drug (remember I suggested it not the Dr.) Broke it in half for 2 weeks to ramp up then started on the whole pill. It makes you have stomach cramps so the second night on the whole pill while sitting in the bathroom at 3AM I thought I would just go get my pistol and was trying to decide whether to put it under my chin or to my temple. Woke my wife up and told her, she stayed up all night watching me. (I also unloaded the gun and gave the ammo to her) IT WAS JUST THAT REAL. After the third day of crying my wife called our pastor, probably the most GOD fearing Christian man I have ever known. He came over and talked to me and I started tapering off the pills.
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Man, I hope things are going better for you now. This is the sort of story that scares the hell out of me when I hear that a close uncle is taking the things. I guess I'd better just be supporting my uncle with this and pray that his Dr. made the right call in putting him on them. Telling him that I don't think he should be on them sure can't help.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 12:31:29 PM EDT
Use of these drugs alone will have no affect on gun rights. No CCW background check or NICS check will even reveal it because it is confidential between patient and doctor, there are no records of it outside the doctor's office. As far as the drugs themselves, they work but have side effects. Zoloft in particular is very dangerous when mixed with alcohol, and its main problem is that the increased seratonin gives people a non-chalant, carefree, "who give a crap" attitude. Counseling, formal or informal, and EXERCISE are the best stress busters. Both my parents are medical/mental health professionals so I hear about this all the time.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 12:31:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady: i'd like to add this: anti-depressants are not mind altering. there is a difference between the mind and the brain. narcotics are mind-altering. think: altered state of consciousness. anti-depressants are not mind-altering. think: no altered state of consciousness.
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How do you explain the statements like "it's like being on two beers all the time" that seemingly many people on the things make? What is a state of consciousness? Is depression a state of consciousness? If so, then these drugs alter that state.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 12:52:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By AlClenin: This doesn't mean I'm stupid (some of you may argue with that).
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I did not imply that you were stupid but I did imply that you were ignorant.
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I am ignorant when it comes to this subject. Starting this chat here is the beginning of getting around it. I probably should have done some reading first though, since my gut reaction (drugs = bad, always) seemed to get under the skin of a few people. I'll revise that view and accept that, yes, they are sometimes appropriate. However, I still think they are over used. In the case of my uncle, I'm not sure, so I'll just try to support him and hope he comes out of it engough to get stop taking. I still haven't figured out an answer as to when can you decide that normal grieving has gone wrong and that drugs are needed. I suppose I could ask a doctor how they make that decision. Like I said above, would it be appropriate to seek out anti-depressents a week after a funeral? (8 months in my case, I'm just using a week to make the point clear.)
First and foremost: UNTREATED CLINICAL DEPRESSION IS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF SUICIDES.
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Noted. This is part of why I'm willing to accept that some people need the things.
LEO's live a high-stress life - fact. LEO's are far more likely to die from "Eating-the-Gun" (suicide by any other name is still....) than from being shot by a dirt-bag - fact. Now we are all blessed, in varying degrees, with something we're all familiar with called the "Fight-or-Flight" syndrome. When faced with imminent danger, our adrenal glands begin to pump more adrenalin into the body giving us heightened physical capacity as we prepare to either fight the threat or flee the threat. ... Over time, and this varies with each and every individual, the brain simply no longer has the capacity to deal-out the proper mix of chemicals to continue as "normal' - what ever normal may be. Due to STRESS the chemical balancing part of the brain has worn out. The "Fight-or-Flight" syndrome, often brought on by stress; not real life-threatening threats, has been called upon once too often and simply can no longer properly respond. Zolof (sp ?) and drugs of this type force an increase in the needed chemicals - fact. Perhaps (perhaps not) you're one of those people who believe treatment for a chemical disorder is the sign of a WEAK person. No, those who seek help for chemical disorders are SMART people.
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I don't think it is weak. They recognize a problem and are seeking to fix it--- that's smart. I question whether it is the right solution. (it appears the answer is sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't)
Now you may continue through life condemning your Uncle or you might give understanding the science a shot. A modest amount of compassion and understanding wouldn't harm much either. Only you can make the decision. Tom Boothe (5subslr5)
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That argument makes sense. I've seen what can happen when you "wear out" the insulin producing pathways in the body, so I guess it isn't much of a stretch to see how excess stress can cause whatever chemical helps you deal with that stress to "wear out". I'll have to do some reading and figure out how one tells when this wearing out has occured. When is it an un-needed crutch and when is it a fix for a "worn out brain"? Anyway, thanks for the good advice.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 12:54:05 PM EDT
I think AlClenin needs a little support here. Some antidepressants are mind altering. In high doses, all can be. there is a tendency in this country to think that any pain, mental, emotional or physical, is to be avoided. That it is traumatic and damaging. Bullshit. It is as much a part of life as joy or pleasure. Grieving is a normal process as well. When it begins to interfere with normal functioning then it is another story. Every bad thing that happens to us is not traumatic. I hear this all the time from mothers. If you never learn to deal on your own with hardship, failures and pain you will only become weak. But learning to not have to deal with pain goes right along with not having to have responsibility for your actions, not having to feel guilt, etc. Doc's do overprescribe these meds. There is no doubt. I do, and I'm stricter with them than others. So many cannot deal with "life" anymore. When I did a regular family practice I spent 70% of my day treating emotional problems. I didn't like giving out antidepressants, Ritalin, and benzo's all day long so now I work in a Walk-In and actually take care of sick people and treat injuries. At least for most of my day. Finally, I will say that to a large extent we create our own biochemical imbalances. If you continually reinforce certain pathways or connections in your brain they become hyper-sensitive and reinforce behavioral patterns that may be destructive. Neurotransmitters and neuroreceptors are likewise affected. I don't mean to be insensitive as some people will need these meds, at least for a brief time(usually not for less than 6 months). Nor to intend to denigrate any of you who may take these meds. Just seemed like Al needs a little support and he is not entirely out of line with what he's saying. I think he deserves a little slack, anyway, giving his recent loss.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 1:12:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2002 1:16:19 PM EDT by AlClenin]
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: AlClenin Thanks I don't enjoy going to the doctor or taking medications without good reason. I don't take pain medication when prescribed by doctors unless I really need it. So I can kind of see your point but I am curious why you won't submit to surgery if needed. Jimbeam
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I'll do things where I can stay awake and they aren't messing with my major organs. I'll put up with the pain from wisdom teeth rather than face the risk of being put under. I've seen what horror complications in surgery can bring. That is how my dad went. I know that the risk of such things happening are very small, but man, if something happens it is horror. I aim to never put myself in a position where something similar could happen. It may be irrational, but that is how it is. Will I change my mind when my doctor says operate or die? Maybe after a fourth opinion and all possible alternatives are explored. If it is proven beyond a doubt that it is either operate or die then I'd do it. But I'd require that no friends or family members be there until I'm either in the clear or dead.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 1:35:06 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 3/7/2002 2:20:51 PM EDT
AlClenin I think the point where normal feeling of being down or grieving become clinical depression is when you want to end your own life and when you stop doing things that you enjoy. Basically you are overwhelmed and see no way out. By no means am I an expert. I could not understand the things I was taught it the few psychology classes in college I had until my brother began having problems. I grieved after my brother death. It took me several months before I felt "up to speed' at work or in social situations. I suggest spending time with friends and family. They can be a great support and they can even help you forget your grief for short periods of time. After one year things are much easier. His death is something I remember at least daily but it isn't as painful as it was a year ago. It does get better.
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