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Posted: 3/4/2002 12:31:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2002 12:38:08 PM EDT by M4Real]
This kid must have wanted to die. "The deputy reported that the man got out of the car and repeatedly slashed at the deputy with the sword. " [url]www.sunone.com/articles/2002-03-02a.shtml[/url] Update: [url]www.sunone.com/articles/2002-03-03b.shtml[/url]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 12:44:41 PM EDT
Hibbitts' mother, Dr. Debra Harman, called authorities about his threatening her. Now she cannot understand how a deputy killed her son. "I will never, ever call the police again. I called the police so that they could protect my son. I told them that he was drunk and that he had a sword and that I was afraid that he was going to hurt himself," she said. "I called the police to protect him, not to shoot him down dead . . . He was a very sweet person who would never hurt anyone." Ok, now how sweet is your kid he was drunk threating you with a sword? Wow thats how sweet I want my kid to be.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 1:20:08 PM EDT
Seems like another case of a mom whose kid can do no wrong. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I'd guess that this kid has slowly been turning into a degenerate loser and she has ignored it. Finally, he really screws up and gets killed and now she's running around blaming the police.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 1:21:32 PM EDT
He must have been a Ninja on a Suicide Mission. Ninjas go crazy and chop off heads and stuff, right!!
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 1:29:22 PM EDT
That's totally sweet! Ninjas are mammals, after all. He flipped out and totally chopped their heads off!
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 1:40:54 PM EDT
I enjoyed reading this part...
"We are trained that you can't thwart off a knife attack if someone gets within 21 feet of you," Faulk said. "If someone charges at you, by the time you draw your weapon, he's already on top of you and is able to stick you several times."
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Which is exactly what I was taught in my self defence/tactical classes. I still personally believe that knives are more leathal than firearms.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 1:43:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4Real: This kid must have wanted to die.
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He was a 19 year old man not a kid.....But HCI is going to add him to the list of children killed by handguns
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 1:48:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Guzzler: I still personally believe that knives are more leathal than firearms.
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It's a hell of a lot easier to hit something vital with a big knife than a bullet, that's for damn sure. I agree with knives being more lethal to an extent.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 1:51:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Guzzler: I enjoyed reading this part...
"We are trained that you can't thwart off a knife attack if someone gets within 21 feet of you," Faulk said. "If someone charges at you, by the time you draw your weapon, he's already on top of you and is able to stick you several times."
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Which is exactly what I was taught in my self defence/tactical classes. I still personally believe that knives are more leathal than firearms.
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Hell yes!!! I have been stabbed about three times when I worked at the hospital. I was lucky that I did not go with the "Why have a vest it's not like your going to be shoot." No but it did help stop a pen, an IV needle and a metal part of a ping pong table that holds up the net most of this was done in a phyc ward. I have to say good job on the PD officers part.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 2:16:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Guzzler: I still personally believe that knives are more leathal than firearms.
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My Tae Kwon Do instructor, while fully aware of the dangers of firearms (he grew up in Philly), said that in his nightmares the assailants would use knives. So yeah, I agree that knives can be pretty darn scary. I'm glad the article addressed the number one question on a lot of liberal minds. "Why didn't you shoot him in the arm?" I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure about the exact circumstances of the shoot, but if the officer had to fire, he did the right thing by hitting center of mass. Viper Out
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 2:28:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2002 2:33:52 PM EDT by cmjohnson]
I'm willing to bet that when and if all the facts come out, it will be revealed that the sword in question was probably a cheap copy and about as sharp as the trailing edge of a bowling ball, and capable of doing injury only by means of blunt force trauma. "Real" swords in the hands of 19 year olds are VERY rare, and are expensive enough that the average 19 year old won't spend the money when a cheap copy looks cool from a distance. I have a low value 'real' Japanese sword, and that is a deadly weapon for sure. It's sharp enough to cleanly cut a piece of typing paper hung by a string. It's about as low-value as a real sword can have, at 300 bucks or so, maybe more due to its restoration, but that doesn't add more than maybe a hundred bucks to its value in this case. That being said, the deputy did right to defend himself but I think he should have gone for a thigh shot, which I judge to be adequate to stop someone. If the man had been waving a gun, a chest or head shot would have been justified, but a sword has no lethal potential if you're not in swing range, so a disabling shot would have been appropriate if the deputy could manage it. I know that in the article, this police academy commander says "It would be next to impossible to aim for something like the legs." but I think that would only be true if the man was running at the time or the deputy was a bad shot. I'll bet I could make that shot. Any volunteers to test that theory? I'll use an airsoft paintball gun so as not to cause any injuries. The volunteer carries a cardboard gift wrapping paper tube instead of a sword. CJ
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:17:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: I'm willing to bet that when and if all the facts come out, it will be revealed that the sword in question was probably a cheap copy and about as sharp as the trailing edge of a bowling ball, and capable of doing injury only by means of blunt force trauma. "Real" swords in the hands of 19 year olds are VERY rare, and are expensive enough that the average 19 year old won't spend the money when a cheap copy looks cool from a distance. I have a low value 'real' Japanese sword, and that is a deadly weapon for sure. It's sharp enough to cleanly cut a piece of typing paper hung by a string. It's about as low-value as a real sword can have, at 300 bucks or so, maybe more due to its restoration, but that doesn't add more than maybe a hundred bucks to its value in this case.
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And you would make that assesment of a "sword" while someone is running at you swinging it?? If it was a sharp as a bowling ball, was swung forcefully, and hit someone ith the head how bad would that injury be? Concussion? Knocked out? Skull Fracture? Any of those are likely, and would incapcitate someone. If you are unable to defend yourself, it makes it awful easy to be killed.
That being said, the deputy did right to defend himself but I think he should have gone for a thigh shot, which I judge to be adequate to stop someone. If the man had been waving a gun, a chest or head shot would have been justified, but a sword has no lethal potential if you're not in swing range, so a disabling shot would have been appropriate if the deputy could manage it.
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Thigh shot? So the swordman is running at you and you are going to hit a relatively small part of his anatomy that is moving rapibdly because he is running? I doubt that a "thigh shot" would stop a determined person unless bone was hit. If you are in "swinging distance" you are to close. 21 ft is noted because an avg. person can cover 21 ft in the same time it takes an avg officer to draw his handgun. Gunshot wounds often do not immediately stop a determined subject. The 21 ft. rule also doesn't take into account the amount of time that it takes to actually percieve you are being threatened and plan to counter the threat.
I know that in the article, this police academy commander says "It would be next to impossible to aim for something like the legs." but I think that would only be true if the man was running at the time or the deputy was a bad shot.
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I know the "commander". According to the article the the deputy was moving backwards rapidly. Try to shoot a traget coming at you while you are moving backwards sometime. Adreniline (sp) has an adverse effect on shooting skill.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:18:16 PM EDT
I'll bet I could make that shot. Any volunteers to test that theory? I'll use an airsoft paintball gun so as not to cause any injuries. The volunteer carries a cardboard gift wrapping paper tube instead of a sword. CJ
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Try getting someone with that cardboard sword 21' from you. From a standing start have them lunge at you. You must have a holstered gun, a toy or inert gun should be used. You can't do anything until they start at you. See how your results are. Remember if you are able to draw and yell "bang" before you are stabbed that the "attacker" will have forward momemtum after being shot, unless he is totally disabled instantly he will still probably be able to stab you after being shot. Let us know how your sight picture looked during that exercise.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:44:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: I know that in the article, this police academy commander says "It would be next to impossible to aim for something like the legs." but I think that would only be true if the man was running at the time or the deputy was a bad shot. I'll bet I could make that shot. Any volunteers to test that theory? I'll use an airsoft paintball gun so as not to cause any injuries. The volunteer carries a cardboard gift wrapping paper tube instead of a sword.
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Your armchair expert scenario takes out the primary element of this situation. Fear for your life. Out on the side of the road alone, back pedaling away from a man bearing down on you flailing a sword is a world away from the little game you propose. You need to stop swinging your Samurai sword at pieces of paper and get out in the real world before playing the, "What I would have done was..." game.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 11:59:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: I'm willing to bet that when and if all the facts come out, it will be revealed that the sword in question was probably a cheap copy and about as sharp as the trailing edge of a bowling ball, and capable of doing injury only by means of blunt force trauma. "Real" swords in the hands of 19 year olds are VERY rare, and are expensive enough that the average 19 year old won't spend the money when a cheap copy looks cool from a distance. I have a low value 'real' Japanese sword, and that is a deadly weapon for sure. It's sharp enough to cleanly cut a piece of typing paper hung by a string. It's about as low-value as a real sword can have, at 300 bucks or so, maybe more due to its restoration, but that doesn't add more than maybe a hundred bucks to its value in this case. That being said, the deputy did right to defend himself but I think he should have gone for a thigh shot, which I judge to be adequate to stop someone. If the man had been waving a gun, a chest or head shot would have been justified, but a sword has no lethal potential if you're not in swing range, so a disabling shot would have been appropriate if the deputy could manage it. I know that in the article, this police academy commander says "It would be next to impossible to aim for something like the legs." but I think that would only be true if the man was running at the time or the deputy was a bad shot. I'll bet I could make that shot. Any volunteers to test that theory? I'll use an airsoft paintball gun so as not to cause any injuries. The volunteer carries a cardboard gift wrapping paper tube instead of a sword. CJ
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I assume you have no Law Enforcement experience. I would LOVE to see you go into a scenario like that. Im sure after you were done, the urine trickling down your leg would have proven the point. Thigh shot? You have been watching too much T.J Hooker reruns. The REAL WORLD is not that easy. The average LEO does not train to be Annie Oakley, as much as you are led to believe. we are ordinary human beings, that have to make judgement calls everyday. I assume that you could take your paintball gun and do the scenario. Well, sir, there is no "timeout" or "do-overs" in this scenario. A person swinging a sword at me is a "kill or be killed" scenario. And I am going home to my family at the end of the shift. That my two cents... Aladdin
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 4:06:13 AM EDT
cmjohnson...........m4gery already beat you up, so I won't, but the rule is.........if your assailant has a bladed weapon, and is within 22ft of you........he is a lethal threat. Period. Also........I have a stainless stl katana that I bought out of Black belt for 45 bucks......it'll do the same thing your 300 dollar sword will do..........which is beside the point.......sword....agressive posture..........shoot to stop.......hopefully your assailant dies.........less legal hassle........sad but true.
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 4:27:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: I'm willing to bet that when and if all the facts come out, it will be revealed that the sword in question was probably a cheap copy and about as sharp as the trailing edge of a bowling ball, and capable of doing injury only by means of blunt force trauma. "Real" swords in the hands of 19 year olds are VERY rare, and are expensive enough that the average 19 year old won't spend the money when a cheap copy looks cool from a distance. I have a low value 'real' Japanese sword, and that is a deadly weapon for sure. It's sharp enough to cleanly cut a piece of typing paper hung by a string. It's about as low-value as a real sword can have, at 300 bucks or so, maybe more due to its restoration, but that doesn't add more than maybe a hundred bucks to its value in this case. That being said, the deputy did right to defend himself but I think he should have gone for a thigh shot, which I judge to be adequate to stop someone. If the man had been waving a gun, a chest or head shot would have been justified, but a sword has no lethal potential if you're not in swing range, so a disabling shot would have been appropriate if the deputy could manage it. I know that in the article, this police academy commander says "It would be next to impossible to aim for something like the legs." but I think that would only be true if the man was running at the time or the deputy was a bad shot. I'll bet I could make that shot. Any volunteers to test that theory? I'll use an airsoft paintball gun so as not to cause any injuries. The volunteer carries a cardboard gift wrapping paper tube instead of a sword. CJ
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I have a better idea. I'll volunteer, except I get a baseball bat not a cardboard tube. I promise not to fracture your skull, but otherwise I get to come in swinging. Deal?
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 8:09:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2002 8:12:17 AM EDT by Rabbit9]
I believe the officer was placed in a situation that could not otherwise be resolved. I will not second guess a person that justifiably acts in defense of their life (police officer or not). If we are to expect the law enforcement community to "police their own", then we have to support them when justifiable actions are taken regardless of the consequences. Edited to add that I'll agree with ArcAngel- On a side note, maybe if "Dr." Harmon had paid more attention to her son than her career, he would still be alive. I believe that one of the biggest problems facing our society is that we let other people/institutions raise our children. If you expect your children to have the same morals/ethics/beliefs that you have or deem to be inportant, then you have to be enough of a presence in thier lives to instill those values. Yes it is a sacrifice, but it is all in where your priorities lie.
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 3:49:39 PM EDT
With a knife, I will take you with me, dont underestimate a edged weapon. GG
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 4:04:21 PM EDT
Shouldnt the real question be why a parent let their 19 year old (underage) kid get drunk at their house and then go drive around afterwards.
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 4:15:43 PM EDT
Why is the common theme in these shootings ALWAYS a family member calling 911, asking for men with GUNS to come protect them from somebody the caller knows betterthan anybody. SHe didn't call the loony bin, she called the cops. THen, surprise, the idiot who's threatening his own family members threatens somebody who protects themself, and it's ALWAYS " I didn't expect them to kill him!"
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 4:47:16 PM EDT
OK, guys. You can lay off me now. I've taken my lumps.[%|] [BD] All I really said was that a leg shot would have been preferable, if it was practical to get it! Upper legs (the pair of them) are nearly as wide as the torso unless you're a fat fella. Shooting for them isn't THAT bad. It's not like it's a one inch wide target...unless you're aiming for Mr. Happy. CJ
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 6:29:11 PM EDT
CMJ-- In self defense there is NO REASON to shoot to wound. If you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm, you have cause to shoot to kill. If you have time to pick your shot to "wound" then you have NO REASON TO SHOOT--you are NOT in immediate danger. The Thighs are, as you pointed out, fairly large targets. There are some good size blood vessels flowing through them--most notably the Femoral Artery (about the size of your small finger), some nerves--Femoral, Sciatic, etc. (about 1/3 to 1/4 the size of the Artery). Hitting one of those might disable the opponent fairly quickly--severing a nerve will prevent signals from reaching the muscles they innervate (effectively "paralyzing" them). Hitting the Femoral Artery will cause rapid death due to exsangunation (a couple of minutes). Hitting the Femur (about as big around as a quarter) would quickly cause a fracture that (in many cases) becomes a compound fracture (the ends get pulled past one another) due to the strong muscles in the area. So, for IMMEDIATE incapacitation (the femoral artery takes too long to stop someone reliably), the femur, and a couple of nerves in each leg are the only viable targets. Think of a pair of pants with a one thick dowel going through each leg, and several strands of yarn near the dowel. Try to visualize shooting the targets hidden in the pants leg in order to immediately incapacitate someone. Missing any of the targets would just punch a hole through some muscle tissue. It may hurt enough to incapacitate someone, but there is no guarantee. Hitting the nerves is no guarantee of incapacitation--the muscles affected might not stop someone already moving in your direction. Even a fractured femur might not stop someone--there are runners who have finished races on fractured bones because they did not feel the pain due to the endorphins. So, basically, if you need to stop someone immediately, the only valid shot is to the Center of Mass--aside from Brain or Spinal Cord shot (shuts off signals to all the muscles), the only reliable "stop" is to get as much blood out of the individual as possible, as rapidly as possible. AFARR PS--I have a "Cheap" Samurai sword floating around in storage at my parents. It came from some knife company about 15 years ago, and is made of 440 stainless and is sharp enough to carve an apple with no trouble. By no means up to Japanese standards, but is about as sharp as a medium/dull chef's knife. Lots of people have been killed with kitchen knives (sharp or dull), let alone something with the mass of a sword backing up a possibly sharp edge.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 4:43:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: I know the "commander". According to the article the the deputy was moving backwards rapidly. Try to shoot a traget coming at you while you are moving backwards sometime. Adreniline (sp) has an adverse effect on shooting skill.
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Apparently the deputy proves your theory wrong, as he connected five times while under duress and quickly moving backwards. Not only did he stop the attacker, he killed him. Unless, your point was to prove that the deputy was not moving backwards or his skills were not being affected by adrenaline.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 5:49:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Apparently the deputy proves your theory wrong, as he connected five times while under duress and quickly moving backwards. Not only did he stop the attacker, he killed him. Unless, your point was to prove that the deputy was not moving backwards or his skills were not being affected by adrenaline.
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Well you drew a conclusion I didn't expect. A sword is deadly force and should be met with like force. The "attacker" was apparently very determined, or drunk enough that he didn't feel the first 4 hits, or both. Which would tend to support the need to use deadly force to stop the attack. My point was this, if someone must use deadly force, they should aim center of mass. Under stress your marksmanship skills sufffer. If you aim center of mass and miss by 6" side to side or 1' up or down you still hit the person you were aiming at. Perhaps that is why it took 5 shots to stop the attacker, poor shot placement. Shooting to "wound" is not good for several reasons, but legally explaining that might be problematic. Or maybe they counted the rounds fired and not the hits.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:06:20 AM EDT
The article says he was hit five times, and that the officer was also "sliced" by the sword. If you'e justified in shooting, you shoot to stop the threat, right? My guess is that the officer fired repeatedly as fast as he could pull the trigger until he got a reaction. I know I would do the same. Who trains to take a single shot, then stop and assess the threat? BTW, the statistics on police shootings show a very low hit rate for shots fired, something like 40% or less. Anybody have the actual averages? In any case, I'd say this officer was either very lucky in getting that many hits, or he was a good shooter, way above average.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:22:29 AM EDT
Yup the article says the "swordsman's" mom said he was hit 5 times. Does she know? If she does how many times did the Deputy shoot? What were the ranges of the shots. Mighty tough to miss contact shots. I believe it is something like 28% hit rate. BG's have something like a 20% hit rate vs. cops.
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