Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 3/3/2002 3:45:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 3:48:37 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Palestinian Sniper Kills 10 Israelis Sun Mar 3, 8:55 AM ET By JACK KATZENELL, Associated Press Writer JERUSALEM (AP) - A Palestinian sniper opened fire on Israeli soldiers and civilian cars at an army checkpoint in the West Bank, killing 10 people, officials said. Israel responded with a series of strikes against Palestinian security installations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites) that killed at least four policemen. The latest violence — which drew demands in Israel for the deposing of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) — came a day after a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in a crowded ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighborhood of Jerusalem Saturday evening, killing nine Israelis, including several children. Israeli tanks, warplanes and naval vessels were used in Sunday's retaliatory strikes. F-16s circled overhead in Gaza and the West Bank, and Israeli gunboats moved close to the Gaza coast. The Al Aqsa Brigades, a militia linked to Arafat's Fatah (news - web sites) movement, claimed responsibility for both Saturday's bombing in Jerusalem and Sunday's shooting in the West Bank at a checkpoint near the Jewish settlement of Ofra. The militia had said it would take revenge for Israel's assault last week on the West Bank refugee camps of Balata and Jenin, in which 23 Palestinians were killed over a three-day period. It circulated a leaflet saying Sunday's shooting was in response to Israeli army actions in the two camps. In the Balata camp, where a man died Sunday of wounds suffered in last week's clashes, a crowd of about 3,000 people marched, chanting "Revenge, revenge!" Exchanges of fire were also reported around the Jenin camp. Israel blamed Arafat for the latest attacks, and Dan Naveh, a Cabinet minister, said it showed "there is no alternative but to put an end to Arafat's rule." "I think the best way to ensure the safety of Israeli citizens is that there will no longer be a Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) headed by Arafat," he said. Palestinians, too, said the violence was spiraling out of control — but blamed Israel. "The Palestinian leadership warns of the danger of the Israeli occupation and escalation of attacks ... on our cities, camps and facilities," said a statement carried by the official Wafa news agency. "This Israeli aggression, which aims to push the entire region closer to an all-out escalation ... must be confronted and stopped." In Sunday's early morning shooting at the army roadblock, paramedic Hezi Tsur told Israel radio that seven soldiers and two civilians were killed. The army also said nine died, without specifying how many of them were soldiers. A Jerusalem hospital, Hadassah Ein Kerem, later reported one of the wounded, a civilian, had died as well.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 3:47:11 PM EDT
The army described it as an ambush that was believed to have been the work of a single sniper. Motorist Eli Barashi said he was about 300 yards from the checkpoint at the time. "I heard shooting and I saw the soldiers firing back ... as I stood there somebody was hit and fell and shouted for a medic," he told Israel radio. Army radio put the number of wounded at 10, and Yerocham Mandola, spokesman of the Magen David Adom ambulance service, said six people were hurt, four seriously. Elsewhere, Palestinian gunmen opened fire on a group of soldiers early Sunday along a road that runs on the Israeli side of the fence between the Gaza Strip and southern Israel. Army radio said one Israeli was killed and three others wounded. The army said four soldiers were hurt. The military wing of the radical group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for that attack in a telephone call to The Associated Press office in Gaza. "The Islamic movement and all the Palestinian people will not stop terrorizing our enemy all over the occupied land ... We will avenge every drop of blood from our Palestinian martyrs," the caller said in a statement. The army swiftly responded, using tanks to knock down two Palestinian checkpoints on the Gaza side near the site of the shooting and conducting a house-to-house search in the nearby village of al-Qarara. Palestinians also reported two people were hurt when Israeli troops opened fire on a Palestinian security post near Khan Younis in central Gaza. In the West Bank, Israeli tanks shelled a Palestinian intelligence office outside Salfit, south of the city of Nablus, and the Palestinians said a policemen had been killed. Israeli troops also aimed heavy machine-gun fire at a Palestinian security checkpoint near the West Bank town of Ramallah manned by Palestinian security forces. Palestinian hospital officials said at least 18 people were hurt. Palestinians also reported a policeman killed in the Israeli rocketing of a police installation in the al-Amari refugee camp outside Ramallah. Clouds of smoke billowed into the air, and one man was helped into a car, his face covered with blood. Two other policemen died in the shelling of a police office in the West Bank town of Qalqiliya, in the northern West Bank, the Palestinians said. Earlier Sunday, Israeli helicopters fired four missiles at Palestinian Authority headquarters and a small factory in Bethlehem. Saturday's suicide blast shook a downtown ultra-Orthodox neighborhood and sent flames leaping into the air from cars that caught fire. Blood splattered the stone wall in front of the Mahane Israel seminary, where up to 1,000 Jews meet every Saturday evening. Besides the bomber, nine people were killed, including a 1-year-old girl and several other children, police said.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 5:14:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 5:23:16 PM EDT by DaMan]
This "[b]one-man ambush[/b]" was carried out by a single "[b]sniper[/b]" armed with a "carbine". This weapon was left behind by the "sniper" (who escaped) and was described as a "worn out carbine (SKS or AK??) with it's stock held together by nails" by early reports. This one man attack (taking out most of an IDF security squad) is a great embarrassment to the IDF. It shows how vulnerable an army depending on high-tech support is to a single determined fighter... [b]even[/b] when armed with a third rate firearm. DaMan
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 6:39:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 7:46:13 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By DaMan: This "[b]one-man ambush[/b]" was carried out by a single "[b]sniper[/b]" armed with a "carbine". This weapon was left behind by the "sniper" (who escaped) and was described as a "worn out carbine (SKS or AK??) with it's stock held together by nails" by early reports. This one man attack (taking out most of an IDF security squad) is a great embarrassment to the IDF. It shows how vulnerable an army depending on high-tech support is to a single determined fighter... [b]even[/b] when armed with a third rate firearm. DaMan
View Quote
Go to [url]www.isayeret.com[/url] and you will see that it is well known even by the Israelis themselves that the standards of marksmanship, fieldcraft, and small unit tactics [i]outside[/i] the Special Forces are poor. Their conscript infantry are not very good, and anymore they lack the experience of the Armies that fought all Isreals wars up through the Lebenon invasion. The IDF beleves that technology dominates war, not people. That is why they use guided antitank missiles- or a F-16 with a LGB- to do what the US would do with a 2 man sniper team.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 6:53:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By DaMan: This "[b]one-man ambush[/b]" was carried out by a single "[b]sniper[/b]" armed with a "carbine". This weapon was left behind by the "sniper" (who escaped) and was described as a "worn out carbine (SKS or AK??) with it's stock held together by nails" by early reports. This one man attack (taking out most of an IDF security squad) is a great embarrassment to the IDF. It shows how vulnerable an army depending on high-tech support is to a single determined fighter... [b]even[/b] when armed with a third rate firearm. DaMan
View Quote
Go to [url]isayaret.com[/url] and you will see that it is well known even by the Israelis themselves that the standards of marksmanship, fieldcraft, and small unit tactics [i]outside[/i] the Special Forces are poor. Their conscript infantry are not very good, and anymore they lack the experience of the Armies that fought all Isreals wars up through the Lebenon invasion. The IDF beleves that technology dominates war, not people. That is why they use guided antitank missiles- or a F-16 with a LGB- to do what the US would do with a 2 man sniper team.
View Quote
More sledge hammers for the flies! Guess what, they probably couldn't swing the hammer fast enough to get them. Looks like the Israelis just want to show who has more money and toys. I'm surprised that Israel doesn't deploy more snipers, it'd make more sense! Shit...reqruit some average AR15.com members and we'll clean up and get revenge at the Muslims at the same time! Win win situations are a joy!
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 7:01:59 PM EDT
You know, this is BAD for those of us who like to own such 'sniper weapons' as worn out old carbines with stocks held together with nails. The anti-gunners will try to use this to their advantage. How many Palestinians are there, anyway? And how much land do they occupy? I'm thinking this crap won't be over until the Israelis kill the last Palestinian, or vice versa. There's too much hatred between the two groups for a real peace to be possible, not in this generation. Dealing in middle eastern affairs is evidently the most complex type of international diplomacy we engage in. I've wondered if maybe we should just back out and conduct cash transactions for oil, and that's it. Let them deal with their problems in any way that suits them. Of course, that's not really a satisfactory solution, either. I'm a mild mannered, easygoing guy who doesn't get worried about anything...but thinking about the mideast clusterf**k could make my head start to hurt REAL quick! Maybe we should get together with the Russians, draw a line dividing the entire middle east in half, and tell them 'You get this side, we get that side' and both countries let the nukes fall. Nah, that'd be unpopular and insensitive. People would bitch to no end, even though gas would be a dime a gallon and only SLIGHTLY radioactive. [:D] Of course, I'm being SLIGHTLY sarcastic. But there is no simple and satisfactory solution to the problems of the mideast, and we all know it, since apparently peace, mutual respect, and getting along with your neighbors isn't an option from what we've seen. CJ
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 7:36:05 PM EDT
This kind of crap will only end when each side controls or kills its own extremist perpetrators. What a shame. Neither side wants peace enough to do this.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 8:03:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 8:12:41 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
More sledge hammers for the flies! Guess what, they probably couldn't swing the hammer fast enough to get them. Looks like the Israelis just want to show who has more money and toys. I'm surprised that Israel doesn't deploy more snipers, it'd make more sense! Shit...reqruit some average AR15.com members and we'll clean up and get revenge at the Muslims at the same time! Win win situations are a joy!
View Quote
Here what the owner of isayeret.com has to say about the IDF Sniper Program: [url]http://www.isayeret.com/sniping/school.htm[/url] If you go over the whole isayeret site you'll find that the anti-armor gunners train more like US/UK snipers than the IDF snipers do!
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 8:12:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: You know, this is BAD for those of us who like to own such 'sniper weapons' as worn out old carbines with stocks held together with nails. The anti-gunners will try to use this to their advantage. How many Palestinians are there, anyway? And how much land do they occupy? I'm thinking this crap won't be over until the Israelis kill the last Palestinian, or vice versa. There's too much hatred between the two groups for a real peace to be possible, not in this generation. Dealing in middle eastern affairs is evidently the most complex type of international diplomacy we engage in. I've wondered if maybe we should just back out and conduct cash transactions for oil, and that's it. Let them deal with their problems in any way that suits them. Of course, that's not really a satisfactory solution, either. I'm a mild mannered, easygoing guy who doesn't get worried about anything...but thinking about the mideast clusterf**k could make my head start to hurt REAL quick! Maybe we should get together with the Russians, draw a line dividing the entire middle east in half, and tell them 'You get this side, we get that side' and both countries let the nukes fall. Nah, that'd be unpopular and insensitive. People would bitch to no end, even though gas would be a dime a gallon and only SLIGHTLY radioactive. [:D] Of course, I'm being SLIGHTLY sarcastic. But there is no simple and satisfactory solution to the problems of the mideast, and we all know it, since apparently peace, mutual respect, and getting along with your neighbors isn't an option from what we've seen. CJ
View Quote
How about occupy the entire Middle East, and pump all the oil out. We could then give the land back in a decade or so. We could even divide it up between US, Russia, and China, just to keep the peace. Seems like common sense to me, though not politically correct.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 8:19:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 8:24:20 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By retrodog: This kind of crap will only end when each side controls or kills its own extremist perpetrators. What a shame. Neither side wants peace enough to do this.
View Quote
Check this out: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=97942[/url] Those numbers show that they approve highly of killing anyone who isnt brown and isnt a muslim, and that the "extreamists" make up most of the Muslim population of the Middle East.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 8:27:00 PM EDT
Was it really a Sniper or just someone who got lucky and hit 10 people with lots of bullets. Sniper only 10 shots would be heard. Not everyone who kills people is a Sniper. It's a shame to bundle Psychos in one category.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 3:54:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By edpmedic: Was it really a Sniper or just someone who got lucky and hit 10 people with lots of bullets. Sniper only 10 shots would be heard.
View Quote
The word "sniper" is used by the IDF so it's less embarassing when [b]ONE[/b] poorly armed pogue takes out an armed squad of IDF soldiers and gets away. As for "[b]lots of bullets[/b]" this guy hit 14 out of 25 shots fired at moving targets while under fire (range unk.). That's a guy, who not only has a lot of "hutzpah", but is a pretty good shot as well. DaMan
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:20:30 AM EDT
Post from DaMan -
That's a guy, who not only has a lot of "hutzpah", but is a pretty good shot as well.
View Quote
The word is [i][b]chutzpah[/b][/i], and, yes, for a frigging [b]murderer[/b], he had plenty of [b][i]chutzpah[/i][/b]! Or do the three settlers not count? Whose side are you on, you need to keep reminding me, 'cause it's surely not the US side! Eric The(AmericaFirst,IsraelNext)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:30:19 AM EDT
Eric, this may have been asked of you before, but if the Israeli's were the ones who were fighting a modern army equipped with the latest weapons, tanks, jets, etc. in there homeland and terror was the only weapon that could cause any real damage to the enemy would you still condemn it ? Also are they settlers or trespassers, in your eyes they are settlers. Were we settlers when we moved out west ? I don't think the native Americans would have used that term.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:48:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By retrodog: This kind of crap will only end when each side controls or kills its own extremist perpetrators. What a shame. Neither side wants peace enough to do this.
View Quote
Retro - I do believe you've knocked the ball out of teh friggen park with this one. I beleive the Arab and Israeli gov'ts are just like the majority of Dems and Repubs over here. They are UNWILLING to take the radical steps necessary to effect change as it means their power base will be endangered, and they may find themselves out of office, and out of political power. And NO, Eric, this guy is NOT a "murderer" NO MATTER how much we find his actions distasteful. There is a war going on over in Israel, which may be news to you. People die in war (which may also be news to you) Unless, of course, you think Jimmy Doolittle is a "murderer" and should be prosecuted for war crimes. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:48:26 AM EDT
Post from rogerb -
Eric, this may have been asked of you before, but if the Israeli's were the ones who were fighting a modern army equipped with the latest weapons, tanks, jets, etc. in there homeland and terror was the only weapon that could cause any real damage to the enemy would you still condemn it?
View Quote
The deliberate murder of civilians of all ages in premeditated attacks is so totally wrong as to be beyond the pale not matter what. In a similar scenario, did Gen. Washington order the indiscriminate murder of British civilian subjects during the Revolution? Did Gen. Lee order the indiscriminate murder of Pennsylvania and Maryland citizens during the War Between the States, when his armies went into those two states? And yet both of those scenarios involved folks fighting for their homeland against superior armies in both numbers and equipment. So if Hamas and Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad, and all those other bastard groups want to pick on the IDF, well, then, fire away! But don't hit and run back into civilian areas! Don't kill and then run home to mama, and think that mama's going to be a some sort of protection against a counterattack! Don't put bomb-making factories inside civilian areas among your own people, and then complain when the IDF hits a legitimate military target. And such cowards shouldn't be able to count on whiney-assed so-called American patriots to speak up for their mudererous terrorism! [b]But they do![/b] And if the dancing, prancing Palestinian throngs on Sept 11 weren't sufficient for those same so-called American patriots to cut their ties and love-fests for this Islamic jihad against Western Civilization, then what on earth will it take? The fact that Osama Bin Laden even mentions their 'struggle' when explaining his actions of Sept 11, would, or should, cause the leaders of the Intifadah to quickly denounce his association in any manner with their armed movment! [b]But it doesn't![/b] And [u]that[/u] doesn't bother some at all, at all! Well, it [u]should[/u] bother you, but I'm not your keeper, brother, so continue to choose which side you will be on in this 'struggle.' There is the left-wing version, and then there's the right... Eric The(I'mOnTheRight)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:56:18 AM EDT
I read this morning that the sniper was only [b]fifty yards[/b] from the checkpoint. That's nearly pistol and grenade range. I wonder what sort of camouflage he had to be able to shoot undetected from such close range for an extended time.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 5:15:21 AM EDT
One has to wonder, If this So Called Sniper, Is local talent, Or an import from somewhere else (Iranian Special Forces?) Has anybody thought of the fact, that The SKS with nails in the stock might be a throw down plant, to mask the work, of a real pro shooter?
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 5:16:13 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
And NO, Eric, this guy is NOT a "murderer" NO MATTER how much we find his actions distasteful. There is a war going on over in Israel, which may be news to you. People die in war (which may also be news to you)
View Quote
So deliberate targeting of civilians is not [b]murder[/b] to [u]you[/u] garandman? Boy, is He going to be pi$$ed when He comes back for you![:D]
Unless, of course, you think Jimmy Doolittle is a "murderer" and should be prosecuted for war crimes.
View Quote
Gee, garandman, why do you serve up such softballs as this...we're in a war, you know! Had Jimmy Doolittle and his commanding officers [u]specifically[/u] targeted civilian areas in their April, 1942, raid, then not only would they have violated the Geneva Convention, not only would they have broken man's laws on the subject, but they would have sinned against God, Himself! But you [u][b]knew[/b][/i] that, right? You were just testing me, of course. Right? Eric The(JustWarsAreJustWars)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 5:17:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2002 5:43:29 AM EDT by garandman]
Eric- I was referring to the attacks of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, where the USA targeted STRICTLY civilians. Or you could also see "Dresden" where the Britain (and the USA) targeted STRICTLY civilians. If I have mistakenly included Mr. Doolittle in the attacks on Japanese civilians, please forgive. Are the US commanders in charge of these raids, as well as Winston Churchill, "murderers" in your eyes??? Are the Israeli commanders who send rockets into civilian areas today "murderers" in your eyes?? No, apparently ONLY Arabs who do this are murderers in your eyes. (It is a WAR going on over there, ya know.) Gee, that's a ironic standard for a lawyer to have. [}:D] Or maybe it isn't - at least a defense attorney. [}:D] Uhh, and you may wish to be careful in your charachterization of God as being "pissed" which implies unrighteous anger. Awful Talmudic of you, Eric. [}:D] Oh, one more curiousity- Why must you always play the "God" card when posting to me?? I have REPEATEDLY attempted to engage you in a Biblically-focused discussion on this issue. To date, you remain silent in this Biblical debate. You seem to prefer Reuters and misc. Israeli funded sites and sources as the grounds to debate from. [}:D] So, I'm left to conclude that you figger God will be mad at me SIMPLY because I disagree with you, which I beleive in the psaychological profession they refer to as (deistic) delusions of grandeur. [}:D] Ouch. [:D]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:15:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: I read this morning that the sniper was only [b]fifty yards[/b] from the checkpoint. That's nearly pistol and grenade range. I wonder what sort of camouflage he had to be able to shoot undetected from such close range for an extended time.
View Quote
What do you mean, NEARLY pistol and grenade range? At 50 yards, I can keep 'em all in a four inch circle with any handgun I own, if I take my time, and I am NOT a competition grade shooter. In 'combat mode' I may open up the group a bit but I won't miss a head-sized target! I can also throw a rock farther than that. Presumably that holds true for grenades. As for the sniper shooting people and whether it's murder or not, believe it, it's murder. The rule of war that is followed by all CIVILIZED societies is that in war, combatants shoot only at other combatants. You don't blast somebody's brain out when they're getting groceries, mowing the lawn, or walking the dog, but if they're armed and shooting at your fellow soldiers, or have a bomb strapped to their waist, they are definitely fair game. Only barbarians and animals intentionally target noncombative civilians. CJ
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:28:39 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
I was referring to the attacks of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, where the USA targeted STRICTLY civilians.
View Quote
So why the Jimmy Doolittle reference? You should have used Gen. Curtis LeMay as your foil! BTW, are you [u]certain[/u] that there were no military targets in either city, or do you need me to go look?
Or you could also see "Dresden" where the Britain (and the USA) targeted STRICTLY civilians.
View Quote
There were significant railroad yards in Dresden which were being used in the German war effort. It is just one of the many bitter ironies in that war, that perhaps as many as 500 captured Allied airmen were sitting in railroad cars in those Dresden yards, awaiting transport to some Stalag somewhere.
If I have mistakenly included Mr. Doolittle in the attacks on Japanese civilians, please forgive.
View Quote
You are forgiven, my son!
Are the US commanders in charge of these raids, as well as Winston Churchill, "murderers" in your eyes???
View Quote
Nope, for the reasons stated. Gee, garandman, are they 'murderers' in [u]your[/u] eyes?
Are the Israeli commanders who send rockets into civilian areas today "murderers" in your eyes??
View Quote
Not so long as they continue in 'firing' (not sending) rockets against genuine terrorist targets! Their aim, up to now, has been pretty damn straight on! A few mistakes perhaps, but the Israelis, just as the United States, never purposefully aims to inflict civilian casualties, only military ones. To do otherwise would not only be atrocious and against their 'better angels', but wasteful of ordnance, as well!
No, apparently ONLY Arabs who do this are murderers in your eyes.
View Quote
So far, that appears to be the case.
Uhh, and you may wish to be careful in your charachterization of God as being "pissed" which implies unrighteous anger.
View Quote
Not at all, I was pissed when I heard about the last suicide bomber (as He was), but our anger was righteous!
Awful Talmudic of you, Eric.
View Quote
I am nothing, if not Talmudic.
Why must you always play the "God" card when posting to me??
View Quote
For the same reason you always use the 'lawyer' card when addressing me![:D]
I have REPEATEDLY attempted to engage you in a Biblically-focused discussion on this issue. To date, you remain silent in this Biblical debate.
View Quote
You are right! I have no wish to discover how you can prove by DNA arguments that today's Israelis are not the Jews of the Bible!
You seem to prefer Reuters and misc. Israeli funded sites and sources as the grounds to debate from.
View Quote
As you and other 'Israel bashers' seem to draw strength and inspiration from communist, socialist, Islamic terrorist, Islamic fundamentalist, Neo-Nazi, etc., sites in your debate in support of Israel's enemies.
So, I'm left to conclude that you figger God will be mad at me SIMPLY because I disagree with you, which I beleive in the psaychological profession they refer to as (deistic) delusions of grandeur. Ouch.
View Quote
Nonsense, [u]if[/u] God is mad at you I'm certain that He has His own reasons. He certainly doesn't need my help or input into the matter! Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:28:52 AM EDT
At 50 yards, I can keep 'em all in a four inch circle with any handgun I own, if I take my time, and I am NOT a competition grade shooter.
View Quote
Wow, that's good shooting! Many handguns won't shoot that well from a Ransom Rest. The effective range of both pistols and grenades diminishes when the shooter/thrower has to dodge incoming fire. [peep]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:40:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: One has to wonder, If this So Called Sniper, Is local talent, Or an import from somewhere else (Iranian Special Forces?) Has anybody thought of the fact, that The SKS with nails in the stock might be a throw down plant, to mask the work, of a real pro shooter?
View Quote
FnL, You and I are on the same page here brother. There is lucky, and there is damn lucky. This is cute:
"The Islamic movement and all the Palestinian people will not stop terrorizing our enemy all over the occupied land ... We will avenge every drop of blood from our Palestinian martyrs," the caller said in a statement.
View Quote
So, you blow yourself up and spill your own blood and then you avenge that blood by strapping more bombs to your own people and sending them down the street? That makes sense. (sk) --LS
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:51:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Are the Israeli commanders who send rockets into civilian areas today "murderers" in your eyes??
View Quote
Not so long as they continue in 'firing' (not sending) rockets against genuine terrorist targets! Their aim, up to now, has been pretty damn straight on! A few mistakes perhaps, but the Israelis, just as the United States, never purposefully aims to inflict civilian casualties, only military ones.
View Quote
So Nagasaki and Hiroshima were NOT civilian?? Wow. There are NONE so blind as they who WILL NOT see. My point is that in war, ANY target that can help END the war, is a legitimate target.
You are right! I have no wish to discover how you can prove by DNA arguments that today's Israelis are not the Jews of the Bible!
View Quote
this shows a GROSS misunderstanding of my argument - which basically is this: ONLY those in salvation relationship with Christ are the "sons of Abraham" and therefore God's Israel.(Romans 2, Galatians 3, Psalm 73, Hebrews 8, Jeremiah 31, the WHOLE New testament, etc, etc etc) The FACT that, thru RAMPANT intermarriage, the so-called Jew of today is prolly as much of Chinese heritage as they are of Abraham's bloodline is peripheral at most (unless you take the Old Testament seriously where Yaweh FORBID intermarriage as being a condition of the covenant)
As you and other 'Israel bashers' seem to draw strength and inspiration from communist, socialist, Islamic terrorist, Islamic fundamentalist, Neo-Nazi, etc., sites in your debate in support of Israel's enemies. [>]:)]
View Quote
[b]I challenge you to support this allegation against me, counsellor.[/b] I have quoted NO ONE in my discourse on this subject. My thoughts are my own. This false accusation by you is what I beleive you lawyers call "slander." But true to form, you bring up the Neo-nazi, AntiSemite smear. Pavlov is smiling. Rational arguemnt is NOT. If ANYONE is a (partial) antiSemite here, ETH, its you, as you clearly hate ALL Arabs, and love ALL Jews, without regard to the facts. (Arabs are Semitic, remember) At least my regard for ALL Semites is CONSISTENT - basically that NONE OF THEM deserve my tax dollars and that ALL of them, outside relationship to Christ, have, by the grace of God, less kinship to Abraham than I do)
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:54:02 AM EDT
Eric, in the eyes of a Palestinian they are not settlers they are invaders, and thus valid targets. (as white "settlers" were to the native americans) Also while on that subject , you are quick to point out american conduct in domestic battles, sadly that is not always the case, our conduct in the Indian wars is well documented. Also , if the Palestinians were not behind the rash of bombings would there be outside countries pushing for peace ? It is sad that they have to resort to such tactics to get the worlds attention and innocent women and children on both sides have to pay the ultimate price. I like all americans was sickened to see the reaction of the Palestinians on 9/11, but it is a reaction I am not suprised at given the billions we send to Israelis every year, (my enemys enemy is my friend) we can only speculate if they would have had a reason to celebrate if the prior was not the case.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 7:29:50 AM EDT
Post from rogerb -
Eric, in the eyes of a Palestinian they are not settlers they are invaders, and thus valid targets.
View Quote
So is this the manner in which this subject is to be considered...what 'they' think of the settlers, how 'they' consider the settlers, how 'they' view the settlers? Well, if that is so, then Bin Laden must have a point when he considers American citizens to be 'valid targets.' I am very certain that he [u]does[/u] consider them to be infidels, spawn of the Great Satan, etc., but that is not the way in which such matters should be determined. Objectively, the settlers have the right to be where they are. Resolution 242, the granddaddy of all of UN Resolutions on the subject, did not specifically ban or outlaw Jewish settlements on the captured West Bank or Gaza!
(as white "settlers" were to the native americans)
View Quote
And if they had killed everyone that got off the boats, who could argue with their logic? Their methods, of course, but not their logic. And considering what has happened to them in the 500 years since that event, who could reasonably blame them? Kill the armed males and send the old men, women and children back to the Old World!
Also while on that subject, you are quick to point out american conduct in domestic battles, sadly that is not always the case, our conduct in the Indian wars is well documented.
View Quote
Well, as historians who know the subject will usually admit, if they are honest, the Indians gave as good as they took! Meaning that the whiteman's depredations were easily matched by Indian depredations. Neither were without incidents for which there was no honor.
Also, if the Palestinians were not behind the rash of bombings would there be outside countries pushing for peace?
View Quote
Yes, pushing the same peace that was once offered to the Palestinians and which they quite rashly rejected! But surely you're not saying that 'bombing kids for peace' is an acceptable course of action?
It is sad that they have to resort to such tactics to get the worlds attention and innocent women and children on both sides have to pay the ultimate price.
View Quote
The world has pretty much had its gaze fixed upon the Middle East for at least a 1,000 years. I doubt that there's any need to run ads for Palestinian statehood any longer! We know what they want and how they will stop at nothing to get it - Palestine, from the River to the Sea! I think it's their national motto!
I like all americans was sickened to see the reaction of the Palestinians on 9/11, but it is a reaction I am not suprised at given the billions we send to Israelis every year, (my enemys enemy is my friend) we can only speculate if they would have had a reason to celebrate if the prior was not the case.
View Quote
How about the billions we send Islamic Egypt every year? They are the Number 2 recipients of US aid. Don't the Palestinians know about that? I'm certain that Yasser Arafat does, since he was born in Cairo, and is an Egyptian! He still has family there - they must tell him of the US aid, wouldn't you think? So, then, tell me why you think the misguided Palestinians celebrated the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein in 1991? Are the Kuwaitis aligned somehow with the Israelis? Or are they simply confused? Eric The(You[u]Know[/u]TheAnswer!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 8:21:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: One has to wonder, If this So Called Sniper, Is local talent, Or an import from somewhere else (Iranian Special Forces?) Has anybody thought of the fact, that The SKS with nails in the stock might be a throw down plant, to mask the work, of a real pro shooter?
View Quote
Given the high risk of capture in a mission like this, I doubt that a country like Iran (or Syria, or Iraq) would want to risk having one of their own troops behind the trigger. Getting caught would result in too many diplomatic problems. But I can imagine another country accepting a few Palestinian "guests" for some military training to be used against Israel.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 8:40:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: ... Also , if the Palestinians were not behind the rash of bombings would there be outside countries pushing for peace ? It is sad that they have to resort to such tactics to get the worlds attention and innocent women and children on both sides have to pay the ultimate price. I like all americans was sickened to see the reaction of the Palestinians on 9/11, but it is a reaction I am not suprised at given the billions we send to Israelis every year, (my enemys enemy is my friend) we can only speculate if they would have had a reason to celebrate if the prior was not the case.
View Quote
If the Palestinians stopped their suicide bombers, ther would be instant peace. The Israelis won't march into the sea, so the Palestinians keep bombing shopping centers, grade schools, etc. BTW, "American" is capitalized. Or is that deliberate on your part?
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 8:42:24 AM EDT
I spoke to a friend out there this is what I get. There were 2 incidences one guy they found the rifle. It was a single shot carbine he took 24 shots hit 10 people. They didn't know where he was. The second was at a checkpoint. 2 shoulders killed I think they got the guy. He was the one at 50yds. Now if you think Israel is wrong think about it. They weren't the ones who started this whole thing. Way back Palestine was trying to EXTERMINATE Israel and Jews. Israel struck back and won. Fast forward Israel is still trying to be exterminated. Also every American no matter what religion is trying to be exterminated. That’s around the world. If you think Palestine denounces what happened at WTC your a fool. I'm not saying there are some Arabs who want peace. See even the Arabs or Muslims in the USA are targets by there own people. Does Israel kill people in the US or Terrorize Americans in the US. I just want my children to grow up in a world without terror or a doomsday clock. People are people we all bleed suffer and die the same. You see I was called a baby killer at one time. I have been trying all my life to put that behind me. It seems never to end the Violence and it has nothing to do with owning an Assault Weapon. It has to do with Politics and Religion. What a FARCE G-D cries for all his children no matter.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 9:03:15 AM EDT
The deliberate murder of civilians of all ages in premeditated attacks is so totally wrong as to be beyond the pale not matter what. In a similar scenario, did Gen. Washington order the indiscriminate murder of British civilian subjects during the Revolution? Did Gen. Lee order the indiscriminate murder of Pennsylvania and Maryland citizens during the War Between the States, when his armies went into those two states? Eric The(I'mOnTheRight)Hun[>]:)]
View Quote
Uh, Do Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring a bell? All civilized nations have been guilty of this, whether overtly or covertly, since there have been civilized countries. Don't kid yourself.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 9:46:30 AM EDT
Post from Alladin -
Uh, Do Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring a bell?
View Quote
Hmmm, a Gar Alperovitz fan? Well, below is a letter written by Harry Truman on January 12, 1953 to Prof. James L. Cate which seems to clearly present his understanding of the necessity of using the atomic bombs to end World War II. See if you can tell where he says something like 'to kill as many Jap civilians as possible.' THE WHITE HOUSE Washington January 12, 1953 My Dear Professor Cate; Your letter of December 6, 1952 has just been delivered to me. When the message came to Potsdam that a successful atomic explosion had taken place in New Mexico, there was much excitement and conversation about the effect on the war then in progress with Japan. The next day I told the Prime Minsiter of Great Britain and Generalissimo Stalin that the explosion had been a success. The British Prime Minister understood and appreciated what I'd told him. Premier Stalin smiled and thanked me for reporting the explosion to him, but I'm sure he did not understand its significance. I called a meeting of the Secretary of State, Mr. Byrnes, the Secretary of War, Mr. Stimson, Admiral Leahy, General Marshall, General Eisenhower, Admiral King and some others, to discuss what should be done with this awful weapon. I asked General Marshall what it would cost in lives to land on the Tokyo plain and other places in Japan. It was his opinion that such an invasion would cost at a minimum one quarter of a million casualties, and might cost as much as a million, on the American side alone, with an equal number of the enemy. The other military and naval men present agreed. [b]I asked Secretary Stimson which sites in Japan were devoted to war production. He promptly named Hiroshima and Nagasaki, among others.[/b] We sent an ultimatum to Japan. It was rejected. I ordered atomic bombs dropped on the two cities named on the way back from Potsdam, when we were in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. In your letter, you raise the fact that the directive to General Spaatz to prepare for delivering the bomb is dated July twenty-fifth. It was, of course, necessary to set the military wheels in motion, as these orders did, but the final decision was in my hands, and was not made until we were returning from Potsdam. Dropping the bombs ended the war, saved lives, and gave the free nations a chance to face the facts. When it looked as if Japan would quit, Russia hurried into the fray less than a week before the surrender, so as to be in at the settlement. No military contribution was made by the Russians toward victory over Japan. Prisoners were surrendered and Manchuria occupied by the Soviets, as was Korea, North of the 38th parallel. Sincerely, (The letter was signed by Harry Truman.) Eric The(SettlesItForMe!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 2:31:30 PM EDT
Great! Give him more ammo. We don't need them anyway. COLD huh?
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 3:31:36 PM EDT
from what i read , the sniper was 300 yards away, he fired 25 shots in 25 minutes, he hit 14, 10 dead 4 wounded, including 7 IDF soldiers, most of the dead were hit in the head.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 3:33:18 PM EDT
Well let’s see Nixon wanted to NUKE Nam Is it Jerry Farwell or Bill Graham that told Nixon "When you do your next term, you have to do something about those JEWS." "They are getting out of hand and I can't control them." This from tapes just released. You realize almost everyone is afraid of Jews what is this power they possess. I have been to Israel. See Israel said Screw all of you we are an Independent Nation. That made lots of religions nervous. Don't think this is about Political Independence on either side. This is about religious greed.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 3:50:42 PM EDT
Apparently there was not a lone sniper: [url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26695[/url] Excerpts: [i] The lone Palestinian sniper who, with 25 bullets from his old-fashioned carbine rifle, was able to kill seven well-armed Israeli soldiers and three civilians – and wound another four – is the stuff of legend, according to DEBKA-Net-Weekly. ..... Our investigations show that before light Sunday morning, not one but three Palestinian gunmen took up positions on the hills enclosing the roadblock on both sides. One, armed with an M-14 carbine, was positioned on the southeastern hill. This rifle may be dated, but many an expert marksman praises its precision and stability. The other two Palestinian gunmen stood on the opposite northwestern hill, armed with an M-16 assault rifle and a PK 500 General Purpose Machine Gun (comparable to a 7.62mm FN MAG). [/i] Still, goes to show with a few rifles, the knowhow to use them, and the element of surprise, 3 guys can cause a lot of damage.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:02:22 PM EDT
according to an israeli source only 25 shots were fired. so why would 3 gunmen 2 of them with machine guns only fire 25 shots in 25 minutes, doesn't make any sense.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:03:30 PM EDT
Post from DeerSlayer -
Great! Give him more ammo. We don't need them anyway.
View Quote
Better idea - give [u]you[/u] the ammo, you can go do them yourself!
COLD huh?
View Quote
Yeah. And stupid. So deliberately killing civilians is a turn on for you? Natty Bumpo would not approve, DeerSlayer! Eric The(HellBetterJustStickToDeer!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:54:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2002 5:55:03 PM EDT by DaMan]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The word is [i][b]chutzpah[/b][/i], and, yes, for a frigging [b]murderer[/b], he had plenty of [b][i]chutzpah[/i][/b]! Or do the three settlers not count? Whose side are you on, you need to keep reminding me, 'cause it's surely not the US side! Eric The(AmericaFirst,IsraelNext)Hun
View Quote
Who's side am I on???!! You think I'm [b]NOT[/b] on the side of the US???!!! Well I'm firmly on the side of the US. To me the US comes first! [b]I didn't know we were even talking about the US[/b]! I thought we were talking about Israelis and Palestinians! [b]Ohhhhhh[/b], I forgot! Eric thinks that the [b]US[/b] is a colonial possession of [b]Israel[/b]. .... [b]So anything said about Israel (that might be considered derogatory), should be condemned by all LOYAL SUBJECTS[/b]! [:P] In any case, I wasn't "ulating" from the roof top after hearing of the incident. I was just commenting about the guts that it took for a single rifleman to take on a squad of armed soldiers...... and come out on top! If you don't like that, Eric, ....tough luck! "Chutzpah"! Yep, that's the word I wanted!(Your Yiddish is excellent, Eric! Thank-you for the correction.) I'm still a bit puzzled on your use of the words "murder" and "killed". Did the Palestinian sniper "murder" the armed Israeli soldiers.... or did he "kill" them? And if the Israelis had returned accurate fire (resulting in the death of the Palestinian), would they have "murdered" him or "killed" him? And it gets more complicated! For example: An Israeli tank fires it's main gun and kills 6 Palestinian civilians (5 of them children).... Is that "murder", were they "killed", or was it just an "unfortunate accident"???!! DaMan Edited to correctly reflect the number of "dead" children.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:04:43 PM EDT
Post from DaMan -
Who's side am I on???!! You think I'm NOT on the side of the US???!!! Well I'm firmly on the side of the US. To me the US comes first!
View Quote
Then if that is true, then the allies of the US should be close behind, you know, 'our' friends. Well, in the Middle East we have very few friends. Lebanon used to be a very close ally until Syria gobbled it up. Jordan's still an ally, when they're not secretly breaking the UN-imposed sanctions by delivering contraband to Iraq. But the shining example of a true ally in the Middle East is Israel! We bleed, they weep. Do you for one moment believe that anyone on the West Bank gives a rat's rear about US combat deaths in Afghanistan this evening? Not on your life! If you want a t-shirt with Bin Laden's photo on it you have to go to the West Bank or Gaza to find one. They are simply not for sale in Israel. In Israel, however, they are mourning the US losses in the fighting in Afghanistan, I can assure you. And why is that? Well, first off, approximately 20% of Israelis are American citizens, and may have friends and family members in the service of the US. Then they are well aware that Bin Laden, the Taliban, and Al-Quaeda are just as much their enemies as they are the enemies of the US. Then there is 50 years of uninterrupted mutual support and friendship that have existed between our two countries. Then there is the fact that our two societies share common values and aspirations.
I didn't know we were even talking about the US. I thought we were talking about Israelis and Palestinians!
View Quote
You forgot. You simply cannot talk of Israelis and Palestinians without mentioning the US.
Ohhhhhh, I forgot! Eric thinks that the US is a colonial possession Israel.
View Quote
Not at all. But to phrase it that way, you must think that they have an inordinate amount of control over what we do and think. Do you think that Israel exerts too much influence over public opinion in the US? If so, how do they do that? Control the media? How?
So anything said about Israel (that might be considered derogatory), should be condemned by all loyal subjects!
View Quote
No. Any such derogatory remarks should be condemned by all decent people everywhere. It just so happens that the US has quite a monopoly on decent people these days.
In any case, I wasn't "ulating" from the roof top after hearing of the incident.
View Quote
Somehow, I doubt that very seriously![:D] - continued -
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:06:53 PM EDT
I was just commenting about the guts that it took for a single rifleman to take on a squad of armed soldiers...... and come out on top!
View Quote
Kind of like saying that it took guts to fly a jet-fuel ladened airliner into a commercial building, eh? That's not bravery, it's evil. Nothing more than that! How come the single rifleman (the lone gunman theory) didn't stick around to end more IDF and civilian lives and go out in a blaze of suicidal glory? Not anxious for those 72 virgins yet? Still has more civilians to murder?
If you don't like that, Eric, ....tough luck!
View Quote
No, I don't like that, and neither should you, little man.
"Chutzpah"! Yep, that's the word I wanted!(Your Yiddish is excellent, Eric! Thank-you for the correction.)
View Quote
Educated Americans [u]should[/u] be familiar with words that have been 'borrowed' from other languages. Especially, from a language as expressive and colorful as Yiddish. It was one of the languages of our Burlesque, of our comedians, of our entertainers, and of our countrymen. Even 'putzes' like to try and use it in their everyday conversations.
I'm still a bit puzzled on your use of the words "murder" and "killed". Did the Palestinian sniper "murder" the armed Israeli soldiers.... or did he "kill" them?
View Quote
He murdered them, just as clearly as if you had taken an SKS and shot some Special Forces in Afghanistan.
And if the Israelis had returned accurate fire (resulting in the death of the Palestinian), would they have "murdered" him or "killed" him?
View Quote
Killed him. Just as clearly as the Special Forces would have [u]killed[/u] you had you fired on their positions in Afghanistan.
And it gets more complicated! For example: An Israeli tank fires it's main gun and kills 6 Palestinian civilians (4 of them children).... Is that "murder", were they "killed", or was it just an "unfortunate accident"???!!
View Quote
Just an unfortunate accident, as it has been reported. Those poor folks were killed, but there is simply no reason to believe that the tank commander wanted to kill them at all. [u]Unlike[/u] the lone gunman sniper of this thread, who [u]actively[/u] sought the deaths of both the soldiers and the civilians. One could make the argument that the lone gunman sniper made a mistake in murdering the civilians, as it must be naturally assumed that he would rather have killed more IDF troops. But this being most likely a Palestinian terrorist attack, I don't think you could support that argument, since they like murdering civilians just as much as IDF troops! [b]If not more![/b] They are terrorists, after all! Eric The(Pro-Israeli)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 9:56:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By coltar1five: according to an israeli source only 25 shots were fired. so why would 3 gunmen 2 of them with machine guns only fire 25 shots in 25 minutes, doesn't make any sense.
View Quote
Read the article, it explains it.
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 4:12:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2002 4:13:30 PM EDT by DaMan]
SNorman, DEBKA is not a reliable source. In fact, most of the tabloids you see near the check-out counter of your local super market are more accurate and less sensational. But, Eric the Hun thinks it's cool because he has the same agenda as DEBKA! [:P] DaMan
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 4:16:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2002 4:59:25 PM EDT by DaMan]
Originally Posted By Norm_G: ... so the Palestinians keep bombing shopping centers, grade schools, etc.
View Quote
Who's bombing schools???!!! The last terrorist bombing of a school that I heard of, was conducted by Israeli [b]terrorists[/b]... er... I mean "[b]vigilantes[/b]"! I'm sure the Israeli government will bring these terrorists .....er I mean "vigilantes" to justice! Eric said they would! [:P] DaMan
Top Top