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Posted: 2/28/2002 11:59:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 12:05:46 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
It seems appropriate at the time to ask this question here on the Forum: [b]Should women be the head of a congregation?[/b] Please allow me to state my case--- I don't feel comfortable with a woman as the leader of the church. I don't think it follows the order of Creation. I think Man is responsible to God, and Woman is responsible to the Man. I believe Woman's role is complimentary to Man, all value and honor equal to the Man before God, only the roles are distinctly different by design. As Christian belief has it, God created Man first; Woman was created from the Man; and God held Man responsible for the "Fall"; he listened to the Woman rather than follow God's specific orders. I DO think women are equal before God as persons. I DO think women have a place in ministry, but, not as the 'head' of the church. This is the dilemma we are having in selecting a church to attend. It is imperative that this problem be resolved soon. Please help me gain wisdom on this "issue"...Thank you.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:00:36 PM EDT
add a POLL
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:04:09 PM EDT
why ask? sounds like youve decided already.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:04:56 PM EDT
If they are called by God...who am I to say whether or not they should be in their place or not?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:10:12 PM EDT
I'm not a religious person, so my opinion is probably doesn't matter. But if the word of God is supposed to be absolute, it would be irrelavant who spreads it.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:13:24 PM EDT
Get rid of them... While you are at it....get rid of the men as well.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:16:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker: why ask? sounds like youve decided already.
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Tell me something that may change my mind. I didn't use to like guns or vote Republican, either... I voted first on the poll. Guess which one. The vote was 100%, making me absolutely right! For a while, until I get answers to enlighten me. Keep it up.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:23:38 PM EDT
I have no idea why God chose to reveal Himself as a Father, and why He chose to incarnate Himself as a Son. But He did. I have no idea why Jesus chose only men to be His disciples, but He did. Some say that He did so out of respect for long-held rabbinical traditions and prejudices, but I cannot believe that for an instant! His ministry was all about setting long-held rabbinical traditions and prejudices on their ear! The early Church chose only men to be its preachers, bishops, presbyters, priests, whatever, because of the example of Christ and His Apostles. So, I for one, am a member of a denomination of the Body of Christ that does not permit the women members to have any direct role in the shepherding of the Church. I suppose that if men finally left the Church in great enough numbers that services could only be conducted by women, that would be another story. A very sad story. But for me, for now, give me that old time religion! Eric The(It'sGoodEnoughForMe!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:25:04 PM EDT
PLEASE see 1timothy chapter3 [):)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:29:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cereal-Killer: I'm not a religious person, so my opinion is probably doesn't matter. But if the word of God is supposed to be absolute, it would be irrelavant who spreads it.
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It IS absolute, and that is why a woman shouldn't be the head of the church (which the bible explains quite well IMHO).
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:32:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BusMaster007:
Originally Posted By lurker: why ask? sounds like youve decided already.
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Tell me something that may change my mind. I didn't use to like guns or vote Republican, either... I voted first on the poll. Guess which one. The vote was 100%, making me absolutely right! For a while, until I get answers to enlighten me. Keep it up.
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youve already stated the important point: "I don't feel comfortable with a woman as the leader of the church." i think this view is mistaken, but it's your comfort level we're talking about, not mine.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:45:52 PM EDT
Yes, 100%. A woman has every right to utter the gospel as she's molesting your child. Why should that be the exclusive domain of men? Ok, so I'm being a dickhead troll, but I would like to hear people's opinions on the latest matter involving 20 years and about 80 Boston Catholic priests. Seriously, no trolling, I'm curious whether folks are parsing the issue and saying "Hey, I'm Baptist, not Catholic, etc..." How are you Catholics feeling about this latest round of sexual scandal, and how have your views changed about the Church, if any? Sorry for the trolling comment, but NOTHING enrages me more than crimes against children, especially when the criminals are shielded by an extremely rich and powerful cult.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:51:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 12:53:13 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
lurker, Sometimes wisdom is uncomfortable. I seek resolution, not justification. Shed some light, bro! Oh, and Eric, if you'd e-mail me re which 'Body' you're referring to, I'll look into it up here. Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:53:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 12:55:17 PM EDT by TheWind]
Eric have to disagree with this one------ "I have no idea why God chose to reveal Himself as a Father, and why He chose to incarnate Himself as a Son. But He did. I have no idea why Jesus chose only men to be His disciples, but He did." The hebrew is very vague in the area of the beginning. There are some Scholars that belief the T*r*h to be written 800 to 1500 years after the time it was given. Also the council that established the Christian Church was in 325 CE, they wording is suspect since it was a verry male society at that time. Two points as to the role of women with respect to G*d, one the first recorded prophet, was Sara. Also there are Historians that believe that MAry Magdeline was held on a par with the male disciples. RThe Book of Thomas, InSearh of Historic Jesus, and Jesus Lived in India. allude to it. We don't know, but there are two aspects of being a Pastor or Rabbi. First Point is the calling, This is by G*d. Second Point is the ordination, this is by man. Ialways go with the big guy!
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:54:46 PM EDT
Bus you must take in account the fact that your bible was written by people who looked down on women in general. Hence all of the anti women stories ( adam and eve for example). They also thought that the med basin was the whole world. They were wrong on that point....what do you think of their chances on this one?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 1:28:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BusMaster007: lurker, Sometimes wisdom is uncomfortable. I seek resolution, not justification. Shed some light, bro!
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first consider the message you desire to hear in your house of worship, whether of forgiveness and caring or of destruction and retribution. perhaps a little of both. then decide whether women are as capable as men of understanding and conveying that message. in my experience they are.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 1:40:53 PM EDT
To All. Just want to add my 2 cents, For those who belive that the Bible is not just a book that was written by men, but is special in that it is God's words penned by man's hands, Then for them the scriptures should be the guide. 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet" should be simple enough. As a side point on the written text and the date written, The real point of consideration comes not with the precise date of record, but do the texts themselves contain factors and prophecy that give evidence to them being beyond the mind of man. For me, The evidence in the text is more than enough reason to belive. For those who doubt the text is inspired, well, All you are left with is your opinion, which is as good as any other man's opinion, For Me, I belive. P.W. Martin PO Box 3615 Wilsonville, OR 97070 [email] Pwmartin@gospeldefender.com [/email] [red]Are you set for the defense of the Gospel?[/red] Visit: [url]www.gospeldefender.com[/url] Proverbs 26:4,5 "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him. Answer a fool as his folly deserves, That he not be wise in his own eyes."
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 2:13:08 PM EDT
PW, Welcome to ar 15 .com....you will be kept busy here...It's fun too!!!
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 2:17:55 PM EDT
My Mother is the best preacher I have ever known. She has been the Pastor at 6 different United Methodist churches over the years and is absolutly amazing. To say she is some how not "qualified" is absolute BS and down right insulting! [:(!]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 2:26:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 3:50:31 PM EDT by Halfcocked]
Study the Scriptures and you will find your answer. I don't know Chapter and Verse but it is stated specifically that women should not be allowed to govern in matters of the Church. Check out Lutheran, Missouri Synod. If you believe that the Bible is the true word of God it's pretty explicit that no, women should not be voting members or heads of the Congregation. Hey, I didn't write it and I don't think it's right for me to decide what parts are open to interpretation or for strict adherence (none and all respectively).
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 2:39:03 PM EDT
Personally, I've head a woman as the minister and I felt she did a better job than any male. Mainly because the sermon was filled with things that were interesting, rather than talking completely about 2000-? year old dead guys and making us draw the conclusions. Considering that women usually have a greater need for spiritual advice, maybe its better that there are more women priests, pastors, ministers.... I definately believe that the word of God is the word of God, we are only there to hear it, digest it and live it. If a woman can teach us better about relating the word to our lives, then a woman is the better choice.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:28:43 PM EDT
For starters, women played an important role in Jesus' ministry. They were even entrusted with the most important information ever... the empty tomb! Of course, the disciples didn't believe them and had to go see for themselves. The Bible clearly teaches that men should be the head of the family and the church. I have known many women who were great teachers, but the [b]responsibility[/b] for leadership rests with the man. If men fail to accept their responsibilities, then women can, and will, pick up the slack. Too many times I have seen families in church because the mother encourages the family and makes sure they get there on Sunday morning. This is clearly the father's responsibility, but most men don't get it. They should fall down on their knees and thank God every day that they have a wife that puts the interest of their children and spiritual well-being ahead of, oh, say football? (That said, maybe I should thank God for my wife "pushing" me back too church 7 years ago! Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Can you tell?)
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:54:12 PM EDT
We've dropped the rope for them in every other profession why not the ministry.....[;D][flame] [;)] [devil]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:59:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ChuckT: If men fail to accept their responsibilities, then women can, and will, pick up the slack. Too many times I have seen families in church because the mother encourages the family and makes sure they get there on Sunday morning. This is clearly the father's responsibility, but most men don't get it. They should fall down on their knees and thank God every day that they have a wife that puts the interest of their children and spiritual well-being ahead of, oh, say football? (That said, maybe I should thank God for my wife "pushing" me back too church 7 years ago! Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Can you tell?)
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Whao! Tell me we have never met. That's almost spooky![;)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 4:41:35 PM EDT
This is getting pretty good! In my 20's I attended a United Methodist Church that had recently changed to a woman pastor. One Sunday she had a guest pastor, a man in his 50's with a long gray beard. A big wooden cross hung from beads around his neck. He began a prayer and addressed it to the "Father/Mother God"... That floored me and sent me away from the church for many years. The regular lady pastor was tall and forthright; her husband not so tall and very meek, as I remember. It seemed backwards. The guest pastor just did me in. Ever since then, I've been looking for a church that met my perception of what a church was when I was a boy, I guess. The pastor was always a man. The leaders were always men. My purpose in posting this is not to be a misogynist or promote that kind of thing. I merely wish to gain a different and perhaps better perspective of the issue. No insults were intended. I've been in contact with a church and pastor recently. Stating my views, I was told I probably wouldn't be comfortable in that church. Great morale booster! I offered that perhaps my views were either antiquated, misguided or right on, depending on how one looked at it... I'm looking to maintain my convictions while not necessarily putting them before what's best for my family. Thus, my precarious position and polling of your thoughts.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 4:47:31 PM EDT
[url]http://www.lcms.org/president/statements/stwomen.asp[/url] What matters is not what "we think something should be" or "feel what should be"... we were warned that what a man thinks or feels is right leads to destruction...Check what the Bible says in this case...Paul says No...end of story...imo and he gives good reasons...for not all men are to serve either in fact he states "Let not many be teachers"...
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 4:55:11 PM EDT
Let me type this for you very slowly... LUTHERAN, MISSOURI SYNOD.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 4:59:36 PM EDT
Let's remember. On the morning Mary went to the cave, she found it empty. Outside Christ revealed himself and told her to spread the good news. End of question. Christ commanded a woman first to speak of his rising. Are we all so arrogant to not allow men and women equal place in our religon?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:12:29 PM EDT
That's true ARgon, but if you believe that the Bible is the true word of God than you have to look for the directions that are set. Do believe that only some of the 10 Commandments are really applicable? That some of the directions should be followed and the rest are outdated? Which parts? If some, why not all?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:39:20 PM EDT
9divdoc- thanks for the link. Halfcocked- I'm a slow learner, [:E], and I read the link. It jibes with what I was thinking. How much are Sunday plane tickets to Missouri? Eric- If you do e-mail me-- I have to go in and change my e-mail address in my profile. Will do so when I have the time to hassle with the password change, etc. mulder- I read it. Yep. lurker- confirming my convictions is why I asked. Thanks. You've all been very kind and wise in this matter. Seeking guidance here was a good move.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:54:13 PM EDT
Busmaster, It probably best for you to base your decision on what YOU feel gives YOU peace in your heart. Not just the gender of a pastor but what church, denomination and "beliefs" they hold. If you go church visiting, make a checklist of what you would like to "see" and "hear" from a church. DO they have a good sunday school? Do they have a "warm" spirit among it's members? Does the Pastor acually minister to you? In other words, do you feel you will benefit by attending this church regularly. Go church "hunting" and when you walk into the church that ministers to you....you will know it. God has a strange way of revealing himself to those who diligently seek him. Gospel defender, I guess after your strict interuptation, my mom has been out of the "will" of God by raising and "teaching" me since I was a child. Not only that..every female teacher I've ever had in public school has been abominable to God. Total nonsense. Taking one scripture verse and basing an entire arguement, is religious dogma that does nothing but divide christians. Paul had been teaching in the various churches at the time of the text writing and had come across a problem of women constantly interupting his teaching...he then made the statement "women should be silent in the church", it had nothing to do with a new "law" but everything to do with the translation of what Paul was preaching. At the time of the early church, men spoke a different dialect among themselves...sort of a "slang" for men, if you please. The women in the church were having a hard time understanding Paul's preaching at the time. You see, the women of the early church (sat) seperate from their husbands,actually across the aisle from their husbands with a thin veil between them. When Paul was speaking, the women were leaning across the aisle and asking their husbands what Paul was saying, thus causing Paul to say to them "Be silent". Knowing that the husbands would be able to "translate" his teaching later. Voila'! Easy explanantion that defies a hundred church theologies. It really helps to look at the actual historic context of the scriptures. As we know, we use the scripture to interupt the scripture. The bible has a "flow" throughout...and if you research it totally many of the religious discrepancies and dogmas can be explained. The bible is inerrant and absolutely the word of God...but, we should never use it to contradict itself in order to qualify OUR man made beliefs...as for musical instruments. You are missing a true gift from God if you ban the creativity that God gives us to worship him with ALL our heart and ALL our soul. With musical instruments i.e. "Loud sounding cymbals","with stringed instruments, with the harp and trumpet", "let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord","with singing and shouting and dancing before the Lord"...I guess David was a total meniacal, harratical idiot?? Too bad...he happpened to be "a man after God's own heart"..weird, huh? Game, set, match. Busmaster..how did you know you found your wife? Then apply your love for God and search for a house of worship be your measuring stick. You will "know" it..women or not. It's great being a Preacher's kid sometimes! [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:03:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 6:11:08 PM EDT by zonan]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: Let me type this for you very slowly... LUTHERAN, MISSOURI SYNOD.
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How does that differ from a plain old lutheran church (which, I have heard, are quite liberal)? And what is a synod?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:10:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NAKED-GUNMAN: Gospel defender, I guess after your strict interuptation, my mom has been out of the "will" of God by raising and "teaching" me since I was a child. Not only that..every female teacher I've ever had in public school has been abominable to God. Total nonsense. Taking one scripture verse and basing an entire arguement, is religious dogma that does nothing but divide christians.
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Ya, we sure wouldn't want to base our doctrine on the bible...which repeatedly condemns the idea of women being in a position of power over men. That's too politically incorrect. God must have been mistaken on those several occasions.
Paul had been teaching in the various churches at the time of the text writing and had come across a problem of women constantly interupting his teaching...he then made the statement "women should be silent in the church", it had nothing to do with a new "law" but everything to do with the translation of what Paul was preaching. At the time of the early church, men spoke a different dialect among themselves...sort of a "slang" for men, if you please. The women in the church were having a hard time understanding Paul's preaching at the time. You see, the women of the early church (sat) seperate from their husbands,actually across the aisle from their husbands with a thin veil between them. When Paul was speaking, the women were leaning across the aisle and asking their husbands what Paul was saying, thus causing Paul to say to them "Be silent". Knowing that the husbands would be able to "translate" his teaching later. Voila'! Easy explanantion that defies a hundred church theologies. It really helps to look at the actual historic context of the scriptures. As we know, we use the scripture to interupt the scripture. The bible has a "flow" throughout...and if you research it totally many of the religious discrepancies and dogmas can be explained.
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Were you there? Or are you just repeating what you've been fed from your politically correct church? Because if you were there, I have some questions I'd like to ask you...just little things I've always been curious about. How tall was Jesus anyway?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:21:47 PM EDT
Post from The Wind -
The hebrew is very vague in the area of the beginning.
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Maybe, but Jesus referred to 'the Father' not to 'the Mother', or 'The Holy Neuter', so that if there were any confusion, Jesus Christ cleared up that point!
There are some Scholars that belief the T*r*h to be written 800 to 1500 years after the time it was given.
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Well, count this 'scholar' as one of them , too! Moses wrote the Torah, a very long time after the events of which he wrote.
Also the council that established the Christian Church was in 325 CE, they wording is suspect since it was a very male society at that time.
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First, can you tell me any society in the history of the world that is not a 'very male society' at any time? Only recently in Scandanavia and in major US inner cities are there societies that are matriarchical. And dear sweet Jesus, the Christian Church was not established in 325 AD, but on Pentecost in approximately 32 or 33 AD! {The First Council of Nicaea was in 325 AD but by then Christianity was a very old and established religion!) Suetonius was writing of Christians in Rome in 63-65 AD. Pliny the Elder was writing Rome about how to handle Christians in Asia Minor by 95 AD. He called them Christians, because that's how they referred to themselves!
Two points as to the role of women with respect to G*d, one the first recorded prophet, was Sara.
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There were lots of female prophetesses in both Judaic and Christian History, but they didn't lead synagogues, temples, or churches!
Also there are Historians that believe that Mary Magdeline was held on a par with the male disciples.
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Nope, they may hold that, but Jesus rebuked Mary when she tried to touch His garments, yet invited His male Disciples to examine His wounds. Now, that is not to say that Mary and the other women were not the closest of friends with the Saviour, because they were! To tend the Body of the dead Christ was the most high duty with which they would ever be entrusted. Jesus loved women and held them in esteem at a time when traditional Rabbinical Judaism had prayers that began 'Lord, I thank you for not making me a woman!' He taught women directly and openly, unlike the Rabbis of His day. He more than anyone else gave women the freedom to be the equals of men, in every aspect except the governance of His Church!
The Book of Thomas, In Searh of Historic Jesus, and Jesus Lived in India. allude to it.
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I'm not certain that any Christian demonination of any period in Church history ever considered the so-called Gospel of Thomas as genuine or authoritative, and it most certainly was never part of the cannon of either the Western or the Eastern Church. It was a Gnostic fiction that was obviously written long after the events described! I'm unfamiliar with the other two titles you've cited, but Jesus never resided in India! Once again, I commend to your reading, Alfred Edersheim's The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah, which may be found online at:[url]http://www.ccel.org/e/edersheim/lifetimes/[/url] This is a very good description of early Christianity and its relationship to First Century Judaism! Eric The(Messianic)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:26:19 PM EDT
Zonan, Has nothing to do with politically correct...I HATE PC!!!! This a simple case of denying ANY man or woman ALL the blessings from God. Women Pastors...I really don't know any, except what I've seen on television. Was I there? No, but that new testament church class "historical exculpatations" I took 15 years ago sure helped. Historical accounts and research are a wonderful invention. Nothing like having facts to back you up. This is'nt about women's rights or ERA or NOW or any political movement. This is about simple scriptures in the bible. Sorry it offends some to find out God has simple explanations for questions. BTW, dogma and doctine are two different things...of course you knew that, huh? AND the bible does'nt "repeatedly" condemn anything but sin. Harden that heart poncho...getcha no where. Therefore now, there is NO condemnation for those... I guess that includes women..who are in Christ Jesus. Period. Whatever, [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:28:36 PM EDT
NAKED-GUNMAN --- I met my wife while driving the bus... there she stood in the zone as I rolled the coach up to a stop. I "knew" we'd be friends. It was that kind of feeling, yes. We became friends, indeed. And, we had to part company for about a year for reasons that do not need to be divulged here. Suffice it to say, I needed her and asked her to marry me via telephone at considerable distance. She accepted and we are still married to this day. ...and I thought 'synod' stood for 'synagogue in overdrive!'
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:16:54 PM EDT
Why don't you ask your mother, wife, or sister? Do you think they may have an opinion?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:40:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Why don't you ask your mother, wife, or sister? Do you think they may have an opinion?
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1. Mother: Wonders why I have a problem with this. 2. Wife: See #1. 3. Sister: If I had a sister, she'd probably be on Mom's and Wife's side. Biased? Naaahh...
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 8:30:16 PM EDT
I'll have to admit, BusMaster007, that it would worry me a whole lot more if I belonged to a denomination that didn't practice immersion baptism of adults only and weekly communion than if they simply had a female preacher! Without immersion baptism and weekly communion, which are the only two bibically mentioned and required sacraments, how can any denomination claim that it is keeping His commandments? He said [red][b]'Except a man be [u]born of water[/u] and the spirit he shall in no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven.'[/b][/red] So water immersion baptism is required. And He said [red][b]'This do in remembrance of Me.'[/b][/red] So communion has been commanded. How often? As Paul said, 'On the first day of the week...' And of course, good works will be the natural result of your commitment to Christ. Eric The(Preacher)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:04:03 PM EDT
Eric, Sometimes your knowledge is absolutely astounding! If I ever get into theological debate...I'm callin' you! Looks like your an escatology major or something. Anyway, your posts on this subject matter deserve a big kudos. Duuuuuude, you're the man. I can't believe anyone can actually remember anything from the torah...hebrew chaldean is'nt a "romantic" language,huh? Lord have mercy..looks like I'm going to go to church this Sunday. It just fires me up to hear people "hungering" today.. Busmaster...you already know the answer. Very coooooool. Great stuff tonight...I wonder if Jesus would have "carried"??? HA![:D]AK or AR?????? [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:41:11 PM EDT
BusMaster007, you don't have to go all the way to Missouri! [;)] You can locate Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod(LCMS) churches in your neighborhood at [url]locators.lcms.org/congregations/[/url] For the record, the Missouri Synod is conservative to very conservative. Most of the liberal churches are ELCA (no disrespect intended to anyone.) Be sure and try different churches as each has their own "personality." You should find one where you and your family are comfortable.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:00:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:12:01 PM EDT
Slasher is right.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 11:56:05 PM EDT
ChuckT, You have done me a [b]HUGE[/b] favor. Thank you for the link. I found a place to go and check it out. I've driven buses by there countless dozens of times and now it has relevance. I intend to attend soon and talk with someone there to find out if this is a place we can go to as a family. My wife and kids have been attending a Lutheran church for a while. This might 'dovetail' nicely into a workable plan. The order of things are probably a little different, but, not totally alien to what they've become accustomed to, I hope. "Seek, and ye shall find", comes to mind. Thank you ALL for participating in this quest of mine. I hope it has had some positive impact on those that have read the thread. Excellent!
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 7:09:12 PM EDT
I never really had an opinion on it, so I decided to ask Betty Bowers. She actually sent me a reply:
In order for a woman to always get her way, it is essential for her to convince the men around her that they are in charge. It is harder to accomplish this when you are running the show, dear. Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian [url]www.bettybowers.com[/url] A woman known throughout Christendom for her joie d'après vivre
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