Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/28/2002 11:47:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 11:59:25 AM EDT by Gunplay]
For all you religious folks out there, riddle me this… If there is a “god” and thus he is presumably all knowing, all-powerful, and therefore timeless how do you account for anything that he\she\it has supposedly done? Simple logic tells us that if “god” is not bound to time, then creation of any kind is both useless and impossible. Any “decision” (because the Christian model paint him as having cognitive though) made by this deity would be moot in that he would know/control the outcome before he even had the “thought.” With this omnipotence, creation in general becomes impossible because everything that will happen, has happened to this “god” and thus our systems: life, the universe, time, and so on could have no place for him. This god would be an emotionless entity because he was timeless. So again I ask you what is in it for “god” to be saving you or paying any special attention to you. The presumption of omnipotence implies that all our actions are controlled by him. Because of timelessness (something which god can not just op out of because again he would know what happened before it did) the very idea of consequences, heaven, or any future what so ever require the passage of time, something that a “god” could not recognize. PS: Please do not claim that your “god” is immortal but not timeless. This would require someone/thing to have created him and opens the argument to all sorts of ramifications, none of which would further any sort of religious argument. PS: Again, I understand why people have latched on to religion, and most of you tend to vote and act the same way as me anyhow. But I would like to see a day when we did not need the illogical excuse of religion or any other such fairytale mysticism to act like rational, reasonable people. PS: Libertarian government is our only hope.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 11:55:30 AM EDT
Even though I've read this post several times...... I have no idea what you just said or are asking... in fact, it makes my head hurt to think about it...
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 11:59:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4A3: Even though I've read this post several times...... I have no idea what you just said or are asking... in fact, it makes my head hurt to think about it...
View Quote
What he's trying to say is that this is the "Who here has smoked marijuana... Sign in" thread.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 12:13:14 PM EDT
Gunplay, the answer to your question is that omnipotence allows God to transcend not only time, but logic. Besides, isn't it a little odd to state that omnipotence makes [i]anything[/i] impossible? [;)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 1:14:47 PM EDT
I guess you never heard of 4th, 5th, 6th dimensions
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 1:37:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 1:38:45 PM EDT by matt_the_ripper]
The bible says "his ways are above our ways" Let me ask you this, do you believe in evolution? I find it easier to beleive in God than the current evolutionary theory: that we all came from rocks. (the theory says "it rained on the rocks for millions of years") Evolution is unprovable, and it actually contradicts many scientific laws. If you want I'll give you some examples later.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 1:56:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 1:58:16 PM EDT by liberty86]
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD [:D] The answer to your question, is FAITH.....
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 2:33:50 PM EDT
Because with omnipotence comes the ability to purposely stay out of things, to allow mankind free will. Omnipotence means you CAN control all things, not that you HAVE to control them.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:12:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunplay: For all you religious folks out there, riddle me this… If there is a “god” and thus he is presumably all knowing, all-powerful, and therefore timeless how do you account for anything that he\she\it has supposedly done? Simple logic tells us that if “god” is not bound to time, then creation of any kind is both useless and impossible. Any “decision” (because the Christian model paint him as having cognitive though) made by this deity would be moot in that he would know/control the outcome before he even had the “thought.” With this omnipotence, creation in general becomes impossible because everything that will happen, has happened to this “god” and thus our systems: life, the universe, time, and so on could have no place for him. This god would be an emotionless entity because he was timeless. So again I ask you what is in it for “god” to be saving you or paying any special attention to you. The presumption of omnipotence implies that all our actions are controlled by him. Because of timelessness (something which god can not just op out of because again he would know what happened before it did) the very idea of consequences, heaven, or any future what so ever require the passage of time, something that a “god” could not recognize. PS: Please do not claim that your “god” is immortal but not timeless. This would require someone/thing to have created him and opens the argument to all sorts of ramifications, none of which would further any sort of religious argument. PS: Again, I understand why people have latched on to religion, and most of you tend to vote and act the same way as me anyhow. But I would like to see a day when we did not need the illogical excuse of religion or any other such fairytale mysticism to act like rational, reasonable people. PS: Libertarian government is our only hope.
View Quote
Who is to say that G-d places himself within our own realm? As Jesus said when question by Pilate, 'My kingdom is not of this world'. As was stated before, G-d exists beyond our own perceptions, His ways are not our ways. You make the mistaken presumption that 'the presumption of omnipotence implies that all our actions are controlled by him' is not correct. Just because G-d is all powerful does not preclude him from not exercising that power. One of the first gifts given to man was the gift of Free Will. We have the choice. Yes, God knows what we will do, but that is because he is omnipotent. Just because he knows what we are going to do does not imply that he is controlling us. What is in it for G-d to be saving or paying special attention? Well, you left out the third part of the philosophical model.....G-d is also omnibenevolent. Which means he loves all. PS - not going to make that claim, since he is timeless. PS - Again, I'd like to see a day when atheists stop parading themselves as being 'more moral', claiming that any who follow religion are greedy bastards who make every decision based on a 'cost-benefit analysis'. PS - Again, Again, you're probably right. The one we have now is going nowhere.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:15:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Because with omnipotence comes the ability to purposely stay out of things, to allow mankind free will. Omnipotence means you CAN control all things, not that you HAVE to control them.
View Quote
Good one. Well said.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:16:58 PM EDT
Thank You.....ADOLPH..........We`ve heard it all before...........[devil]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:20:23 PM EDT
[:K]...[:K]...[:K]...[:K]...[:K]...[:K].................[flame]...[devil]...[devil]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:22:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By matt_the_ripper: The bible says "his ways are above our ways" Let me ask you this, do you believe in evolution? I find it easier to beleive in God than the current evolutionary theory: that we all came from rocks. (the theory says "it rained on the rocks for millions of years") Evolution is unprovable, and it actually contradicts many scientific laws. If you want I'll give you some examples later.
View Quote
first of all, what the hell does evolution have to do with his question? second of all, do we [i]have[/i] to go through this load of crap again??????? [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:37:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jd123: I guess you never heard of 4th, 5th, 6th dimensions
View Quote
or 12
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:50:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By jd123: I guess you never heard of 4th, 5th, 6th dimensions
View Quote
or 12
View Quote
..."12...you mean there are 12?......DAMN.....we`ll NEVER get this thing home!".....(capt. Katherine Janeway)
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 4:35:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By M4A3: Even though I've read this post several times...... I have no idea what you just said or are asking... in fact, it makes my head hurt to think about it...
View Quote
What he's trying to say is that this is the "Who here has smoked marijuana... Sign in" thread.
View Quote
Are you suggesting that the only proper response to this topic should start with, "Dooood!!" ?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 4:42:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 4:43:52 PM EDT by Gunbert]
My powers are beyond your understanding! Some comic said that, and it applies here.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:02:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Are you suggesting that the only proper response to this topic should start with, "Dooood!!" ?
View Quote
As nearly incomprehensible as the "question" was, I suppose that "Doooood!!" would not be an altogether inappropriate response.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:25:08 PM EDT
This god would be an emotionless entity because he was timeless. Oh ya. That makes sense. Not just Dooood. Oh wow man; Dooood.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:34:28 PM EDT
Gunplay; Something for you to consider. When I die, if I am wrong, I will be no worse off than you. I will have lead a righteous life (as I can), have held honor and good will to my family, my fiends and to mankind (and to my God as well) and done what is good and had a happy, fun filled life doing so. Maybe even a liitle more so because I will not fear death as I know what awaits me. Really nothing gained or nothing lost if there is no God. But if you are wrong.....
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:43:14 PM EDT
Listen to HalfKocked He is right. If you try to reason your way out of the Peace of the Lord what have you gained? You have gained Hell and have lost everlasting life.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 5:54:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: Gunplay; Something for you to consider. When I die, if I am wrong, I will be no worse off than you. I will have lead a righteous life (as I can), have held honor and good will to my family, my fiends and to mankind (and to my God as well) and done what is good and had a happy, fun filled life doing so. Maybe even a liitle more so because I will not fear death as I know what awaits me. Really nothing gained or nothing lost if there is no God. But if you are wrong.....
View Quote
Otherwise known as "Pascals Wager."
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:12:00 PM EDT
Always the party favorite: agnostic/atheist...the little "g" for God crowd. WHile your at it..why not just cuss to your little heart's desire, your hatred for any supreme being?? BTW, man is appointed to death once says "god"...how will you prove him wrong? Better yet...screw his "time" limit on life. Why not just extend your lifespan to 500 years? There is no "god", there is no "god"...yeah, and there is no tomorrow either. Fleas steering the dog again.. [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:24:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 6:26:59 PM EDT by Rowgan]
Hey gunplay, if hate religon or people who practice it, just say so. No need to make a fuking excuse for it. Religion is a choice. Some people choose it. Some don't. No need to call us assholes for choosing it. I suppose you have all the answers and want us to worship you like a god right? Sorry, not gonna phuking happen. You too SteyrAUG
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:40:33 PM EDT
Gun play...All of God's creatures serve Him...including you...you have no choice ..you are predestined by Him to serve as He has willed it..A finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. All things work together for good for those that serve the Lord and who are called according to His purpose.If you cannot commune with God its because your heart has been hardened either by you or by Him..In order for a man to be given understanding of God it must come by God..Without faith it is impossible to please Him...(or know Him).. You can beller all you want about there not being a god or spout old regurgitated platitudes & Neitzche like sylagisms ..If God didnt exist then it would be necessary for man to invent him etc...Marx also was like that- Religion being the opiate of the people..Faith is not the same as religion..religion is a crutch if it comes from the fleshly nature of man...faith comes from God..from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through a new birth. Without the Holy Spirit telling you (the internal witness to truth) about the Lord God and His Son Jesus Christ..it would be impossible to have faith..yet even the devil has a type of faith- he knows that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit exist..but the devil does not have the kind of saving faith aka having the new birth the Holy Spirit of the Living God in him...Your rejection of this truth..is on your own head..The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom..God is real..more real than anything He created..all life draws substance from He who made everything. Dont concern yourself with this too much...if it is given to you to understand someday you will ..if not then.. Life is very short...and sooner or later you will be confronted with the truth..and come face to face with Him who you have rejected...If this is not true then you have nothing to worry about anyway..except living today by what ever standards happen to catch your fancy at the moment..you're a self made man..a god unto yourself..(thats with a very small g) God doesnt need us for anything..He could destroy us anytime He so desires...why doesnt He?..For God so loved the world (us) that He gave His only begotten Son to die for us..that whosoever believes in Him might be saved..(from the judgement that is to come) Now the life of Jesus has been witnessed by thousands..thousands of reputable men of their age..many of those men who had no interest in Jesus and who rejected Him intially..but who were won over by the power of His ministry (and having the spirit of God within them)..the working of thousands of miracles witnessed by hundreds who recorded these events..now if you wish to dispute all these witnesses (their testimony is in the bible) feel free to do so..but they witnessed Jesus healing lepers, giving sight to the blind..raising the dead..and witnessed HIs own crucifiction and resurection and His ascent into Heaven. Some, like John, were given revelation of what is to come..believe it or not..makes little differences for it will happen or it will not..God be glorified -The pressing question for you is ...where will you spend eternity..you might want to give that some thought...or simply curse..or laugh..but I urge you to ..give it some thought that is...
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:53:59 PM EDT
Gunplay you dont believe in a god, but you probably believe in evolution. i will take God its easier to believe. just look at your body and how it functions. it had to have a creator, it just didnt happen by chance walter
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:57:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Gun play...All of God's creatures serve Him...including you...you have no choice ..you are predestined by Him to serve as He has willed it..A finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. All things work together for good for those that serve the Lord and who are called according to His purpose.If you cannot commune with God its because your heart has been hardened either by you or by Him..In order for a man to be given understanding of God it must come by God..Without faith it is impossible to please Him...(or know Him).. You can beller all you want about there not being a god or spout old regurgitated platitudes & Neitzche like sylagisms ..If God didnt exist then it would be necessary for man to invent him etc...Marx also was like that- Religion being the opiate of the people..Faith is not the same as religion..religion is a crutch if it comes from the fleshly nature of man...faith comes from God..from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through a new birth. Without the Holy Spirit telling you (the internal witness to truth) about the Lord God and His Son Jesus Christ..it would be impossible to have faith..yet even the devil has a type of faith- he knows that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit exist..but the devil does not have the kind of saving faith aka having the new birth the Holy Spirit of the Living God in him...Your rejection of this truth..is on your own head..The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom..God is real..more real than anything He created..all life draws substance from He who made everything. Dont concern yourself with this too much...if it is given to you to understand someday you will ..if not then.. Life is very short...and sooner or later you will be confronted with the truth..and come face to face with Him who you have rejected...If this is not true then you have nothing to worry about anyway..except living today by what ever standards happen to catch your fancy at the moment..you're a self made man..a god unto yourself..(thats with a very small g) God doesnt need us for anything..He could destroy us anytime He so desires...why doesnt He?..For God so loved the world (us) that He gave His only begotten Son to die for us..that whosoever believes in Him might be saved..(from the judgement that is to come) Now the life of Jesus has been witnessed by thousands..thousands of reputable men of their age..many of those men who had no interest in Jesus and who rejected Him intially..but who were won over by the power of His ministry (and having the spirit of God within them)..the working of thousands of miracles witnessed by hundreds who recorded these events..now if you wish to dispute all these witnesses (their testimony is in the bible) feel free to do so..but they witnessed Jesus healing lepers, giving sight to the blind..raising the dead..and witnessed HIs own crucifiction and resurection and His ascent into Heaven. God be glorified...
View Quote
Quite a mouthful there rookie preacher. Though I don't disagree with your effort, your style needs some fine-tuning. You're kinda over anxious to preach it TO them rather than WITH them. Ya' gotta make space for the crowd to inject their "Amens" and "Glory-Be's" brother. Don't just run it all together like that - give the congregation a chance to chime in with a few "Hallelujahs" and shouts of "Preach it Reverend, Preach". Now you done good this time and next week I know you'll do even better. [;)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:21:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 10:26:15 PM EDT by Gunplay]
Now come on the ADOLF comment is just all-wrong. What has been done in the name of religion far surpasses ADOLF's exploits. And being an atheist far from allies me with any of his concepts. The arbitrary presumption that there must be a cognitive being of some kind controlling man and the universal simply because of its complexity is the weakest of arguments. The faith argument is equally lame for it would support any theory, witchcraft etc. I ask you why you would support anything, which does not have considerable evidence for itself beyond ancient writings (poor story at that, the bible is absurd). You can tell me that the lord is all around me but I guess will just have to wait for the second coming. Don’t hold you breath. What if I were to come to you tomorrow and offer you a sorry similar to the one in the bible? Would you buy it for a second? Because I do not accept religion does not make me an immoral person nor does accepting religion privilege anyone. Your actions determine you worth nothing more. Never mind… I am sorry I made this post. I will concern myself with more practical posting elsewhere, like the anti-gun pro socialist boards. Religion is ridiculous, but if it is what you need and you act reasonably otherwise, then so be it. I ment you no harm by my comments. Good day and keep your powder dry. PS: what is all this talk of "Weed" or the strong smoke, as my friends and I know it? I don't partake, but how is it relevant? The war on drugs is as arbitrary and tyrannical as the war on guns and the same sentiment fuels it.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 4:00:43 AM EDT
This is odd..... I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion here. [BD] Like everyone else said - God IS God. Believe it. Or don't.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 4:17:07 AM EDT
All I can say is WOW! Ditto garandman!
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 4:52:52 AM EDT
Some things to think about: What happened 5 minutes before the "Big Bang"? The Jewish people are the greatest evidence that there is a God. Every day, more archeological discoveries are verifying the stories in the Old Testament. Do some research on Jesus Christ. But be warned, many skeptics who set out to prove that he was a myth, just a man, etc., have become Believers. Look at it this way; If he did exist, if he did heal the sick, control nature, multiply food, raise the dead, and then come out of the grave Himself,...maybe we should listen to Him. I had to decide for myself if God was real, and if so did He send his son to die for my sins. The answer that has changed history is a resounding [b]YES![/b]
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 6:03:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunplay: Now come on the ADOLF comment is just all-wrong. What has been done in the name of religion far surpasses ADOLF's exploits. And being an atheist far from allies me with any of his concepts. The arbitrary presumption that there must be a cognitive being of some kind controlling man and the universal simply because of its complexity is the weakest of arguments. The faith argument is equally lame for it would support any theory, witchcraft etc. I ask you why you would support anything, which does not have considerable evidence for itself beyond ancient writings (poor story at that, the bible is absurd). You can tell me that the lord is all around me but I guess will just have to wait for the second coming. Don’t hold you breath. What if I were to come to you tomorrow and offer you a sorry similar to the one in the bible? Would you buy it for a second? Because I do not accept religion does not make me an immoral person nor does accepting religion privilege anyone. Your actions determine you worth nothing more. Never mind… I am sorry I made this post. I will concern myself with more practical posting elsewhere, like the anti-gun pro socialist boards. Religion is ridiculous, but if it is what you need and you act reasonably otherwise, then so be it. I ment you no harm by my comments. Good day and keep your powder dry. PS: what is all this talk of "Weed" or the strong smoke, as my friends and I know it? I don't partake, but how is it relevant? The war on drugs is as arbitrary and tyrannical as the war on guns and the same sentiment fuels it.
View Quote
Dude, The weed comments are just a reflection on your style- your original comments were aruementatvie, kinda off the wall, and outta left field. This is a small, but very vocal group when it comes to religion, right or wrong. If you want to rile them up, I'd recommend a slower, more measured approach to "baiting the bear". Try a simple question at first, then lead into the more inflammatory rhetoric. Even better if you can get *someone else* to take that position, the flamefest will last a lot longer. That, or mention your support for abortion. [:D] Now, if you really think the libertoons have anything meaningful to offer this country, then maybe you should consider joining democraticunderground.com, as no one here will agree with a word you'll say.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 6:07:28 AM EDT
Post from gunplay -
Now come on the ADOLF comment is just all-wrong. What has been done in the name of religion far surpasses ADOLF's exploits.
View Quote
Exploits? Bad choice of words, 'atrocities' is even a poor choice of words in describing what Hitler and his minions did. But come, [b]gunplay[/b], cite for us the actual numbers of folks who perished in the Inquisition, or in the Crusades! Those two historical events seem to be the two every secular humanist/atheist/pagan whines, bitches, and carps about, but you can include numbers from any historical event you'd like.
And being an atheist far from allies me with any of his concepts.
View Quote
I don't know about 'concepts.' But, to put it succinctly, he apparently didn't have any religiously-based scruples, principles, or doctrines to use in dissuading him from doing what he did either! Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]
Top Top