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Posted: 2/27/2002 4:31:47 PM EDT
Nice job of jumping to conclusions BEFORE having many FACTS with which to accurately assess the incident, that is. But I guess it's always easier to slander/demean the LEO and jump all over his ass than it is to arrive at an informed conclusion or, God forbid, accept the possibility that the military is indeed fallible. ---------------------------------------------- [url]http://www.fayettevillenc.com/obj_stories/2002/feb/m27sage.shtml[/url] Bragg alters Robin Sage Army will inform law enforcement By Greg Barnes Staff writer Fort Bragg is changing how it conducts its Robin Sage exercise following the shootings of two soldiers Saturday in Moore County. One change is that student soldiers will no longer wear civilian clothes during the role-playing exercise, which is the culmination of the Special Forces Qualification Course. Another change is that Army leaders will have face-to-face meetings with sheriff’s officials from all 10 counties used for Robin Sage before an exercise is set to happen. The changes come after a Moore County sheriff’s deputy fatally shot 1st Lt. Tallas Tomeny and wounded Sgt. Stephen Phelps. Investigators say the deputy, Randall Butler, didn’t realize that Tomeny and Phelps were acting as civilian guerrillas while participating in the course. Phelps was in fair condition Tuesday night at FirstHealth Moore Regional Hospital in Pinehurst. “While we deeply regret the death of our comrade, we are confident that we can adjust our procedures to preclude this from ever happening again,” Army Col. Charles A. King said at a news conference Tuesday. King oversees the course as commander of the 1st Special Warfare Training Group at Fort Bragg. Deputy pulls over pickup Butler confronted the soldiers about 2 p.m. Saturday, after stopping the green Ford Ranger pickup they were riding in. “What followed was a tragic case of mistaken identity and fatal misunderstanding,” King said. Butler, unaware of the Army exercise, thought Tomeny and Phelps were trying to harm him and opened fire. The two soldiers were dressed as civilians, in blue jeans and flannel shirts. Although the Moore County Sheriff’s Department was aware of Robin Sage, King acknowledged that the Army did not notify it of the events taking place Saturday. King and Lane Carter, the Moore County sheriff’s chief deputy, said they didn’t feel there was a need because no major operations were scheduled for that day. (cont.)
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 4:32:55 PM EDT
(cont. from above) King said the Army accepts the conclusion of the district attorney for Moore County that Butler shot the soldiers because he thought his life was in danger and that the soldiers thought Butler was role-playing as part of the exercise. But he would not say whether he thought the Army was in error. The investigation is still being conducted, King said. “Clearly, in any accident there is a cause,” he said. “We have not yet determined what that is. We consider this a case of mistaken identity and broken communications and we will rectify that.” Other changes Among other changes being made: The Army has stopped using law enforcement officers as role players, and command leaders have reviewed administrative rules with the students. King said more changes will follow. “Before we do another Robin Sage I can assure you that we will have a program for complete and total coordination with all authorities within the vicinity of which we exercise,” he said. King called Robin Sage an unconventional warfare exercise focusing on combat operations aided by indigenous forces. He said the exercise has proved itself invaluable in actual combat in Afghanistan, Haiti, Somalia, the Persian Gulf, Vietnam and elsewhere. “That we have been conducting this exercise for almost 50 years with so little impact speaks for itself,” King said. Carter, the Moore County chief deputy, said his department pledges its full support to the Army and the exercise. On Monday, the State Bureau of Investigation reviewed the shootings and provided its findings to Garland N. Yates, the district attorney for Moore County. Yates concluded that Deputy Butler was justified in his use of deadly force. Butler has been on administrative leave with pay since the shooting, which is standard procedure. Back on the job Carter said Butler is doing “better than expected” considering the circumstances and is expected to rejoin the department today. He has been with the Moore County Sheriff’s Department for about two years. He worked as a deputy in Lee County previously. Neil Godfrey, the SBI’s special agent in charge of the southeastern district, confirmed that Butler had a video camera operating in his patrol car when he stopped the truck the soldiers were riding in. Godfrey said the tape showed Butler stopping the truck, but it ended shortly afterward because it had run out. Godfrey also confirmed that one of the soldiers tried to give Butler fake “Pineland” money as a bribe before he was shot. Bribes are a common role- playing technique in the exercise that uses the fictitious country of Pineland as its base of operations. Staff writer Greg Barnes can be reached at 486-3525 or barnesg@fayettevillenc.com
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:02:21 PM EDT
The deputy had seen these exercises before, right? So when they tried to "bribe" him with "fake 'Pineland' money", that should have been a CLUE to him that they were involved in this exercise. . . . Of course, the whole thing will fall apart next year when a group of prison escapees decides to get into military uniforms and kill a few deputies by duping the cops into thinking they're just playing training games.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:04:08 PM EDT
"Godfrey also confirmed that one of the soldiers tried to give Butler fake “Pineland” money as a bribe before he was shot. Bribes are a common role- playing technique in the exercise that uses the fictitious country of Pineland as its base of operations." I thought the shooting was justified until I read the quote above. You think the deputy would have figured out these guy were part of Robin Sage when they offered him Pineland money. He could have easily instructed them that he was not part of the exercise and asked them to confirm there ID. I hate second guessing someone when I have very limited information. Perhaps he tied this and they attempted to disarm him.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:12:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 5:16:41 PM EDT by Boomer]
So what does this "Pineland" money look like? How familiar with it is EVERY LEO within a 50 mile radius of Ft Bragg? How was it displayed? How well was the deputy able to see it?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:13:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:38:26 PM EDT
Everyone was to blame in this mess. Maybe you should be thinking of the dead soldiers family instead of this stupid pissing match, huh?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:39:46 PM EDT
I don't understand one thing. Did the viedo run out before or has the shooting was going on? I find it strange, but I am sure it was a tragic mishap. When the military says they didn't need to inform the Police. After the bribe the LEO said his usual your under arrest thing. Then the role playing was trying to jump the LEO? HE was able to put some distance and capped them. That's what I guess happened. Just wish the viedo tape didn't run out. Would put every one at ease. Praying for all of them is the best we could do right now.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:44:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Everyone was to blame in this mess. Maybe you should be thinking of the dead soldiers family instead of this stupid pissing match, huh?
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I fail to see how the Deputy shares any blame in this. He was simply doing his job and reacting as he was trained to. I don't believe the soldiers themselves are to blame, either, but rather the organization they work for. Maybe the subject shouldn't have been brought to the forum in such a combative, judgemental, cop-bashing manner in the first place.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:05:52 PM EDT
Boomer, Your attitude is just as wrong as the other side of this argument. If you are in LE, I would expect you to be above this kind of stuff.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:07:03 PM EDT
Boomer, YOU fail to see how the deputy shares any blame ??? HE SHOT AND KILLED ANOTHER PERSON !!! thats how. Has he ever participated in these exercises before ?? This was a miscommunication that ended in tradgedy, and blame lies in both places. For you to say he shares no blame is irresponsible. BTW, I,m glad to hear that deputy itchy finger is doing so well throughout this ordeal. I wonder how the family of the DEAD serviceman is doing ??
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:15:51 PM EDT
Thanks for the props, Boomer. Just want to make sure, he lived and worked there, and they tried to bribe him with the offical play money? Let's turn it into a thing for you in your town. You are driving home, going a little fast. Some car with funny blue and red lights and a symbol on the door gets behind you so you stop, wondering what's going on. You see a man in some sort of blue suit and metal on his chest get out. There is a gun on his hip. You run him over and drive away because your life is in danger. Okay with you? Sounds good? You didn't know. He was a cop there. The excerise goes on all the time, and has for 40 years. They offered him the play money. Either he screwed up, or something else was going on. The fact the military will spoil the training to suck ass on camera and save the brasses next promotion means squat. They skunked shoot and move training in boot cause a movie of the week got made, how many lives will that cost in Iraq or North Korea?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:17:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 6:18:23 PM EDT by 1GUNRUNNER]
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Boomer, YOU fail to see how the deputy shares any blame ??? HE SHOT AND KILLED ANOTHER PERSON !!! thats how.
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By making that statement you have to be saying it was a murder, he shot them on purpose full knowing they were in a military exercise.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:23:42 PM EDT
Well, I guess everybody knows Boomers true color now. Blue.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:24:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Boomer, YOU fail to see how the deputy shares any blame ??? HE SHOT AND KILLED ANOTHER PERSON !!! thats how.
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By making that statement you have to be saying it was a murder, he shot them on purpose full knowing they were in a military exercise.
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NOPE, not at all. It was not murder, but a man IS dead. And like it or not the deputy SHARES BLAME in this situation. To absolve him of any and all responsibility is wrong. Hmmm, I wonder where Joe Q. Citizen would be if he ran into these guys and was put in a similar situation?? Gee, you think he would be back at work or sitting in a cell ??
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:28:15 PM EDT
It is because of civilians who don't appreciate the hard work that the police do that makes the job of law enforcement is so difficult. Why don't you knuckleheads do a ride along and see if you would like to be a cop and deal with the dregs of society.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:41:52 PM EDT
The lack of sympathy on this board about this terrible incident is pretty sad. I don't think there are many of us here who can possibly know what the deputy must be going through now, and I thank God I can't. I will say that for once everybody involved in a tragedy seems to be doing the right thing - focusing on making sure it doesn't happen again, rather than passing the blame around. There's a lesson there if anyone wants to hear it.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:55:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Well, I guess everybody knows Boomers true color now. Blue.
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Try gray. Not blue. Not green. But gray. A nice neutral shade.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:00:41 PM EDT
The video ran out right after the truck was stopped..... OK if you say so. The duffel bag (allegedly) had a disasembled M4...(pause).... but yet Dufus somehow found the intellect to go for it? ???????? ??????? ????..?..??>>??? Play money?..... Why not just let the truck gate down so they can all gather round and play a game of chutes and ladders while they are at it. Put the play money to good use, eh. Unbelievable! It ain't funny anymore. Here is part of the quote from the Army spokesman: "The exercise tests skills in survival, tactics and dealing with people, as well as ethics, judgment and decision-making." Here is the final report card. Survival................... failed Tactics.................... failed Dealing with people ....... failed Ethics.......Auugh be nice, give it to them. Judgment................... failed Decision-making ........... failed ___________________________________ Total score.......... PASSED, plus recommendation for Purple Hearts. If these are the elite that are suppose to protect us from the enemy... maybe we'd all be better off going at it alone.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:04:52 PM EDT
The article I read about this incident a few days ago was a bit different and I believe more in-depth. I submit two excerpts from the article: [i]Moore County Deputy Randall Butler was patrolling a country road Saturday when he spotted a pickup truck with three men in it. All three were wearing civilian clothes; Butler was suspicious because one of the men was riding in the truck bed in 40-degree weather. Butler pulled the truck over and noticed a duffel bag with a disassembled M-4 rifle inside. When one of the three men in the truck came at him, Butler tried pepper spray. When the attack continued, Butler opened fire. First Lt. Tallas Tomeny was killed. Sgt. Stephen Phelps is listed in fair condition. The civilian driver, who has not been identified, was unharmed. Local and Army officials call it a tragic breakdown in communications and say no charges will be filed. Military officials from Fort Bragg say they did not notify Moore County officials of the exercise because they figured they would not be involved.[/i] and: [i]But the soldiers also know that every local contact is a potential trap. Once, Cato had his daughter and a girlfriend dress in shorts and stand by the side of a road he knew the soldiers would be using. Cato and his troops had pushed the girls' car into a ditch and were hoping the opposing force would take the bait. They did. "We confiscated everything and drove off and left them," says Cato, who has played the role of area commander for 11 years. Such a lapse, or a combination of them, on the part of a trainee can lead to failing the exercise and being forced to take it again. Retired Green Beret Master Sgt. Thomas Broken Bear Squier went through Robin Sage in 1977 and has since taken part in two dozen exercises as an instructor. As realistic as things could seem sometimes, Squier says a stark line was drawn at causing actual physical injury. Soldiers received in-depth training on how to know things were out of control, he says, and pepper spray in the face should have been a warning to the soldiers that the line had been crossed. "I would have put my hands on my head and told him, `Look, let's stop right here,'" says Squier, a veterans services officer. "They had to realize that he was a real deputy."[/i]
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:05:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Why don't you knuckleheads do a ride along
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Did on Saturday.
the dregs of society.
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Imbroglio, Do you consider yourself to be one of the named above?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:05:45 PM EDT
(cont)Now, the way I see it, if I'm the deputy, I'm already on guard and a bit nervous. I'm probably not paying too much attention to the money they are trying to bribe me with because I want to be alert as to what these guys are doing. The attempted bribe only serves to make me more suspicious. It looks as though these guys have something to hide and they were carrying what looks to me like a military rifle. These guys might be from the local base, but I do not know that for sure. Given all the warnings we've had concerning terrorism lately, I want to make damn sure these guys are not up to something. In the original article I read, they state that at one point they tried to disarm the officer. If I've already sprayed these guys with pepper spray and they still keep coming, especially if they are trying to take my weapon from me, I'm going to come the conclusion that they mean me some harm. At that point I'm going to use lethal force to stop them if they still come after me. This kind of situation can spin out of control very rapidly. The officer did not know any military exercise was going on and it would not make sense to him that they would attack him. This all happened very quickly. The Army mistakenly assumed that the local Sheriff did not need to be informed. This incident is a very good example of why you should always expect the unexpected. It would have hurt nothing to let them know what was going on. It probably would have saved a man's life. I'm sorry, but I do not see any fault on the officer's part. The man honestly thought he was doing his duty and I believe 90% of people in his position would have handled the situation exactly the same.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:06:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: It is because of civilians who don't appreciate the hard work that the police do that makes the job of law enforcement is so difficult. Why don't you knuckleheads do a ride along and see if you would like to be a cop and deal with the dregs of society.
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I really appreciate what LE does for us citizens. What I don't appreciate is a bunch of attitude.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:06:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 7:12:33 PM EDT by Boomer]
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Boomer, YOU fail to see how the deputy shares any blame ??? HE SHOT AND KILLED ANOTHER PERSON !!!
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He reacted as he was supposed to. Yes, he was involved in the incident, but how is he to blame? He responded in a perfectly predictable manner to individuals posing a grivous threat to him. If anything, the Army is negligent in setting the stage for this in the first place. This is precisely why conducting this sort of training in a civilian environment is totally inappropriate and outright dangerous.
BTW, I,m glad to hear that deputy itchy finger is doing so well throughout this ordeal. I wonder how the family of the DEAD serviceman is doing ??
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Just couldn't let it go without some snivelly, whiny, condescending remark, could you? Ever consider that the rest of us also wonder how the family of the dead and injured servicemen are doing as well as keeping them in our thoughts and prayers? I can empathize with the deputy and tell you that in my line of work we often kill others through no fault of our own. Even though we aren't to blame, it doesn't lessen the trauma of being involved in another's death.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:08:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer: Although the Moore County Sheriff’s Department was aware of Robin Sage, King acknowledged that the Army did not notify it of the events taking place Saturday. King and Lane Carter, the Moore County sheriff’s chief deputy, said they didn’t feel there was a need because no major operations were scheduled for that day. (cont.)
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It appears that they were aware of the operation. I know from past experience that usually some, not all, local LE's don't particularly care for the military personnel stationed in their area. I am not saying that is what happened in this case, but who knows. None of us really know, so maybe we should just cool our jets.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:12:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: Just want to make sure, he lived and worked there, and they tried to bribe him with the offical play money?
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He had only been there a short time. What makes you think he had ever been exposed to the Army's training exercises or their fake money? And what does this money look like? How visibly was it presented?
Let's turn it into a thing for you in your town. You are driving home, going a little fast. Some car with funny blue and red lights and a symbol on the door gets behind you so you stop, wondering what's going on. You see a man in some sort of blue suit and metal on his chest get out. There is a gun on his hip. You run him over and drive away because your life is in danger.
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That's about the stupidest analogy I've ever heard. Maybe I should just offer him some monopoly money and then try to disarm him when he refuses it. Sound much smarter?
He was a cop there. The excerise goes on all the time, and has for 40 years. They offered him the play money. Either he screwed up, or something else was going on.
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Yeah, something else was going on alright. The Army wasn't very up to speed. And they should restrict their training to controlled environments.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:18:42 PM EDT
You know, I've been pretty much on the side of the Deputy since this story broke--the version of events the Sheriff's Office gave supported only one conclusion--the deputy shot, with reason, to defend his own life. But this is starting to look dirty. When I see stuff like this:
Godfrey said the tape showed Butler stopping the truck, but it ended shortly afterward because it had run out.
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I call [b]BULLSHIT[/b]. I also think (from what's been posted on this board by folks like SF, along with my best friend who has both been through and supported this exercise) that they're watering the training down to the point where it's almost not worth doing anymore! What the hell is the point of all these changes? The only one that NEEDS to be put in place is COMMUNICATION--everything else looks like a case where someone who wants his star is trying to show everyone he's "doing something" and nothing more. Folks who know better, correct me on this, please.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:25:16 PM EDT
Imbroglio and Boomer, It's obvious you two are not your department's public communications officers. Your complete lack of tact and defensiveness is really not helping your case. You seem very vindictive, and I would hope that LEO's would be above that. You are just reinforcing some people's beliefs here that police are arrogant, spiteful, and look down on lowly "civilians".
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:27:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: It appears that they were aware of the operation. I know from past experience that usually some, not all, local LE's don't particularly care for the military personnel stationed in their area. I am not saying that is what happened in this case, but who knows. None of us really know, so maybe we should just cool our jets.
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Ahh, but that knife cuts both ways. I've also known military personnel with contempt for LEOs or who've thought that their missions or objectives are more important those of LEOs. One could just as easily speculate that these two soldiers didn't like the idea of their training mission being compromised and possibly receiving a poor grade or evaluation by what they viewed as some Barney-Fife local-yokel. But like you said, none of us really know yet. Which is what Happyshooter's original post shouldn't have been so condemning of the deputy.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:28:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: I really appreciate what LE does for us citizens. What I don't appreciate is a bunch of attitude.
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Hmmmmmm, and that can't be applied to members of the military as well?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:30:49 PM EDT
OK, so the army is now promising to communicate with all of the "authorities" and "law enforcement agencies", but how about communicating with [b]all the people[/b] who live there?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:30:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Boomer, YOU fail to see how the deputy shares any blame ??? HE SHOT AND KILLED ANOTHER PERSON !!!
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He reacted as he was supposed to. Yes, he was involved in the incident, but how is he to blame? He responded in a perfectly predictable manner to individuals posing a grievous threat to him. If anything, the Army is negligent in setting the stage for this in the first place. This is precisely why conducting this sort of training in a civilian environment is totally inappropriate and outright dangerous.
BTW, I,m glad to hear that deputy itchy finger is doing so well throughout this ordeal. I wonder how the family of the DEAD serviceman is doing ??
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Just couldn't let it go without some snivelly, whiny, condescending remark, could you? Ever consider that the rest of us also wonder how the family of the dead and injured servicemen are doing as well as keeping them in our thoughts and prayers? I can empathize with the deputy and tell you that in my line of work we often kill others through no fault of our own. Even though we aren't to blame, it doesn't lessen the trauma of being involved in another's death.
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Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:33:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Boomer, YOU fail to see how the deputy shares any blame ??? HE SHOT AND KILLED ANOTHER PERSON !!!
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He reacted as he was supposed to. Yes, he was involved in the incident, but how is he to blame? He responded in a perfectly predictable manner to individuals posing a grievous threat to him. If anything, the Army is negligent in setting the stage for this in the first place. This is precisely why conducting this sort of training in a civilian environment is totally inappropriate and outright dangerous.
BTW, I,m glad to hear that deputy itchy finger is doing so well throughout this ordeal. I wonder how the family of the DEAD serviceman is doing ??
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Just couldn't let it go without some snivelly, whiny, condescending remark, could you? Ever consider that the rest of us also wonder how the family of the dead and injured servicemen are doing as well as keeping them in our thoughts and prayers? I can empathize with the deputy and tell you that in my line of work we often kill others through no fault of our own. Even though we aren't to blame, it doesn't lessen the trauma of being involved in another's death.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:35:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Imbroglio and Boomer, It's obvious you two are not your department's public communications officers. Your complete lack of tact and defensiveness is really not helping your case. You seem very vindictive, and I would hope that LEO's would be above that. You are just reinforcing some people's beliefs here that police are arrogant, spiteful, and look down on lowly "civilians".
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Newsflash: I'm not a cop. Just a lowly civilian who's trying to look at the incident with an unbiased eye. Nice try, though. I guess when you can't argue with facts, you can always try a personal attack.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:47:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 7:51:58 PM EDT by djk]
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By djk: Imbroglio and Boomer, It's obvious you two are not your department's public communications officers. Your complete lack of tact and defensiveness is really not helping your case. You seem very vindictive, and I would hope that LEO's would be above that. You are just reinforcing some people's beliefs here that police are arrogant, spiteful, and look down on lowly "civilians".
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Newsflash: I'm not a cop. Just a lowly civilian who's trying to look at the incident with an unbiased eye. Nice try, though. I guess when you can't argue with facts, you can always try a personal attack.
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Boomer, This was not ment as a personal attack. This was to point out that you are enforcing every negative stereotype about LEO's. You may think you are sticking up for them, but your arguments put them in a bad light. EDITED: I think there is enough blame to go around with everyone in this situation...the soldiers, the LEO, the ARMY and the Sheriff's dept. We don't know the situation. The only person who truly has an unbiased opinion is the civilian that was driving the truck, and we havn't heard from him/her at all.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:52:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Boomer, This was not ment as a personal attack. This was to point out that you are enforcing every negative stereotype about LEO's. You may think you are sticking up for them, but your arguments put them in a bad light.
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Oh yes, very unlike all the Barney-Fife comments being bandied about, right? Please, if you disagree with me, at least provide some sort of rational argument.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:55:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By djk: Boomer, This was not ment as a personal attack. This was to point out that you are enforcing every negative stereotype about LEO's. You may think you are sticking up for them, but your arguments put them in a bad light.
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Oh yes, very unlike all the Barney-Fife comments being bandied about, right? Please, if you disagree with me, at least provide some sort of rational argument.
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I think you are mixing me up with others on this thread. I never made any comments denigrating LEO.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:59:15 PM EDT
As you know, I have beenn highly critical of the actions of the two Special Forces Trainee's in this matter. How ever some of you have drawn the conclusion, that I am anti military. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But at the risk of sounding like Joe Friday, I'm only intrested in the cold hard facts of the investigation. So I tend to project the human motivations for both the Leo and the Special Forces trainee's Investigators are by their nature professional Paraniods, We worry about all the human failings and the darkers side of human nature. The kinds of things that make normal people wake up screaming in the middle of the night. Sociaty pays it,s Law enforcment and other investigative agencies to think about the bad, unpleasant things, that it as a whole would rather not think about and does not want to look at. I can buy the fact that the officer probably did not want to get invoved in taking the Pineland money, Frankly, I would not even let you hand me money in the middle of a traffic stop. Here let me turn my back on you, while I hold this bill up to the sun to see if it has a water mark or marking thread. Please kill me. On the other hand, I am very disturbed, by the fact that the vidio tape in the deputies unit, just happened to run out of tape, just after the stop. I am not so blindly loyal to Law Enforcment, That this, does not raise some investigative RED FLAGS. The vidio tape question should be pursued by the NCBI. I am very uncomfortable about it's coincidental ending just before the incident. I am also begining to wonder Why we have not heard much out of the civilian that was at in the patrol car during the incident. I would sure like to see a copy of his statement and find out a little more about his background. There are still some things about this deal that do not add up.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:19:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 8:28:36 PM EDT by djk]
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By djk: Boomer, This was not ment as a personal attack. This was to point out that you are enforcing every negative stereotype about LEO's. You may think you are sticking up for them, but your arguments put them in a bad light.
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Oh yes, very unlike all the Barney-Fife comments being bandied about, right? Please, if you disagree with me, at least provide some sort of rational argument.
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Here's some rational argument for you: 1) Was the reason to stop the truck legal? 2) The sheriff's dept was notified the operations were occurring. Were the individual officers notified? If so, did they just not read the memo? 3) What does the civilian driver have to say about the whole incident. 4) What does the wounded soldier have to say? 5) The tape unit ran out....good one. 6) Did the deputy call for assistance on the stop before he got out of his car? 7) When was the deputy's weapon drawn? 7a) Was a lethal weapon ever brought to bear on the deputy? Kinda bad shooting unarmed men, isn't it? 8) What condition was the "maced" person in when he was shot? Was the maced person the person that was mortally wounded? 9) At what point did the deputy release/was told that he had just shot a US soldier? 10) When was the ambulance called? 11) How long did medical help take to arrive? 12) Did the deputy administer first aid? I don't know the answers to these questions and neither do you, boomer. You don't know what happened. You are depending on the media for your information. Guess what, the media gets it wrong more than it gets it right. US Teenagers drink 25% of the alcohol consumed in the United states....wrong. This is such a waste because it could have been easily avoided, but you can't automatically assume the LEO was in the right and the evil military was in the wrong. And vis-versa.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:22:38 PM EDT
I don't think the video tape ended prematurely. I think it is an ace in hole for the Deputy. I think it shows more than the Army cares to see, such that the Army has been very cautious to just call this whole mess a "Tragic Error", nothing more. In return for not going after, criticizing, or blaming any part of this mishap on the Deputy.... the tape ran out prematurely. Such is life. The Deputy mentioned that even when the ambulance arrived, the SF remained silent and didn't mentioned the exercise. As for the civilian that was riding with the SF?... He is just going along for the ride, so to speak. Is that such a surprise to anyone.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:28:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 8:35:55 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: As you know, I have beenn highly critical of the actions of the two Special Forces Trainee's in this matter. How ever some of you have drawn the conclusion, that I am anti military. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm only intrested in the cold hard facts of the investigation. On the other hand, I am very disturbed..
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Guess that about sums it up. [X]
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:30:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 8:34:19 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By levi: I don't think the video tape ended prematurely. I think it is an ace in hole for the Deputy. I think it shows more than the Army cares to see...
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I doubt that you can "Think." [X]
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:30:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By levi: I don't think the video tape ended prematurely. I think it is an ace in hole for the Deputy. I think it shows more than the Army cares to see, such that the Army has been very cautious to just call this whole mess a "Tragic Error", nothing more. In return for not going after, criticizing, or blaming any part of this mishap on the Deputy.... the tape ran out prematurely. Such is life. The Deputy mentioned that even when the ambulance arrived, the SF remained silent and didn't mentioned the exercise. As for the civilian that was riding with the SF?... He is just going along for the ride, so to speak. Is that such a surprise to anyone.
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One SF was dead and the other was critically wounded. I don't think they would be doing much talking.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:32:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By levi: I don't think the video tape ended prematurely. I think it is an ace in hole for the Deputy. I think it shows more than the Army cares to see, such that the Army has been very cautious to just call this whole mess a "Tragic Error", nothing more. In return for not going after, criticizing, or blaming any part of this mishap on the Deputy.... the tape ran out prematurely. Such is life. to anyone.
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Yup, that's certainly a possibility. Not saying it's what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time the military has tried to cover it's ass. Anyone remember the USS Iowa? Clayton Hartwig?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:33:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zak: But this is starting to look dirty. When I see stuff like this:
Godfrey said the tape showed Butler stopping the truck, but it ended shortly afterward because it had run out.
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I call [b]BULLSHIT[/b].
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I believe in time your call of "BULLSHIT" will be proven correct.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:34:02 PM EDT
Imbroglio and Boomer: I have alot of respect for LEO's, in fact I count quite a few of them as my friends, neighbors and shooting buddies. I have alot of respect for military personnel, I used to be one. What I don't have alot of respect for are people who seem to have the attitude that whatever LEO's do is alright, because hey, we have a hard job. You signed on for that job, right? Same goes for Military personnel for that matter. It sticks in my craw when something like, oh say the Amidou Diallo case comes up, and we need to overlook the fact that even though he was shot 41 times for trying to hand over his wallet, the police aren't to blame. I think this was a tragedy, and probably since we don't know all the facts and never will, there is a little blame on both sides. Hey, maybe not. Maybe the deputy did everything just right to the tee...I doubt that makes him feel much better. I imagine he probably isn't as solid on it as you guys seem to be. But, it makes no more sense to be blindly accepting of his 100% in the right, than it does for others to jump on it being 100% his fault. But, that's just my opinion.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:37:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: One SF was dead and the other was critically wounded. I don't think they would be doing much talking.
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Not even.... "Tell my wife I love her?"
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:44:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By levi:
Originally Posted By djk: One SF was dead and the other was critically wounded. I don't think they would be doing much talking.
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Not even.... "Tell my wife I love her?"
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I guess that would be on the tape, wouldn't it. Ooops, the tape ran out!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:53:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By djk: Everyone was to blame in this mess. Maybe you should be thinking of the dead soldiers family instead of this stupid pissing match, huh?
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I fail to see how the Deputy shares any blame in this. He was simply doing his job and reacting as he was trained to. I don't believe the soldiers themselves are to blame, either, but rather the organization they work for. Maybe the subject shouldn't have been brought to the forum in such a combative, judgemental, cop-bashing manner in the first place.
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Honestly, I've watched the pissing match and can definately see the cop IS at fault. He knows this training mission is carried out and saw the funny money, yet couldn't put 2+2 together? This was a VERY WELL KNOWN exercise in that area and this cop F***ed up. When he saw the funny money, he should have instructed them that he wasn't part of the mission and told them to remain in the car until they were verified through the army. The Cop blew it and murdered, THAT is why we can bash him, don't turn it into "Cop bashing," because that isn't the case.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 9:09:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72: .... don't turn it into "Cop bashing," because that isn't the case.
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Well said.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 9:28:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By levi:
Originally Posted By djk: One SF was dead and the other was critically wounded. I don't think they would be doing much talking.
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Not even.... "Tell my wife I love her?"
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I guess that would be on the tape, wouldn't it. Ooops, the tape ran out!
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Indeed! Don't ju know. :)
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