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Posted: 2/27/2002 5:44:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2002 5:59:28 PM EDT by Corey]
Hot off the press!!
This morning, at 4:30 am, the Wisconsin state assembly passed AB675, the shall-issue concealed carry bill. It passed by a vote of 58-40! This is the most incredible news! Many of us thought it wouldn't get this far. The next step is to get the bill into the Senate judiciary committee and get a vote on it there. From the committee, it then goes to the state Senate. If you haven't already written your state senator, now is the time. If you've written, write again! If you don't know who your state senator is, go to http://www.legis.state.wi.us/wamltest Onward and upward! The Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association
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Action is required people!! Write your Senator!! EDITED to better reflect where the PPA is at now.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:17:23 AM EDT
Go guys! Go guy--& gals! The libs in Madison must be cringing in their beds.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:51:19 AM EDT
Below are the names of the representatives who voted on AB675, the concealed carry bill. An "A" to the left of the name means a vote for the bill; an "N" means a vote against the bill. Again, if you don't know who your representative is, go to http://www.legis.state.wi.us/wamltest And remember these votes come election time in November! AYES € 58 NAYS € 40 NOT VOTING € 1 PAIRED € 0 A N NV NAME A AINSWORTH (R) X ALBERS (R) A BALOW (D) N BERCEAU (D) A BIES (R) N BLACK (D) N BOCK (D) N BOYLE (D) N CARPENTER (D) N COGGS (D) N COLON (D) N CULLEN (D) A DUFF (R) A FITZGERALD (R) A FOTI (R) A FREESE (R) A FRISKE (R) A GARD (R) A GRONEMUS (D) A GROTHMAN (R) A GUNDERSON (R) A GUNDRUM (R) A HAHN (R) N HEBL (D) A HINES (R) N HOVEN (R) N HUBER (D) A HUBLER (D) A HUEBSCH (R) A HUNDERTMARK (R) A JESKEWITZ (R) A JOHNSRUD (R) N KAUFERT (R) A N NV NAME A KEDZIE (R) A KESTELL (R) A KRAWCZYK (R) A KREIBICH (R) A KREUSER (D) N KRUG (D) N KRUSICK (D) N LA FAVE (D) A LADWIG (R) A LASEE (R) A LASSA (D) N LEHMAN, J. (D) N LEHMAN, M. (R) A LEIBHAM (R) A LIPPERT (R) A LOEFFELHOLZ (R) A MCCORMICK (R) A MEYER (R) N MEYERHOFER (D) N MILLER (D) A MONTGOMERY (R) N MORRIS€TATUM (D) A MUSSER (R) A NASS (R) N OLSEN (R) N OTT (R) A OWENS (R) A PETROWSKI (R) A PETTIS (R) A PLALE (D) N PLOUFF (D) N POCAN (D) A POWERS (R) A N NV NAME A REYNOLDS (D) A RHOADES (R) N RICHARDS (D) N RILEY (D) A RYBA (D) A SCHNEIDER (D) N SCHOOFF (D) A SERATTI (R) A SHERMAN (D) N SHILLING (D) N SINICKI (D) A SKINDRUD (R) A STARZYK (R) N STASKUNAS (D) A STEINBRINK (D) A STONE (R) A SUDER (R) A SYKORA (R) N TOWNSEND (R) N TRAVIS (D) N TURNER (D) N UNDERHEIM (R) N URBAN (R) A VRAKAS (R) N WALKER (R) A WARD (R) N WASSERMAN (D) A WIECKERT (R) N WILLIAMS (D) A WOOD (D) N YOUNG (D) N ZIEGELBAUER (D) A SPEAKER (R) IN CHAIR: JENSEN
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Here's the list of who voted for/against, sent by Dick Baker. By my quick count, I think the following important to note: - 12 Democrats voted FOR; and - 10 Republicans voted AGAINST. These percentages give me hope that this thing stands a chance of passing in the Senate, IF we manage to get as many D's for and KEEP all R's. Senator Zien will be busting his butt to get this thing to the floor of the Senate (having to bypass the Senate Judiciary Committee, where it's stalled). It would be a shame if we got the necessary D's to pass the PPA but lost it due to R defections. If you have DONE NOTHING to this point to support the PPA but would've have applied for a permit if it passed, NOW is the chance to REDEEM yourself!!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:54:57 AM EDT
This just in from Dick Baker:
On Friday, March 1st, the WCCA Dane county chairman Dominic Ferraro will be on Sly in the Morning's radio talk show in Madison. The stations are Am 1670 and AM 1480. The show will also be on TV channel 14. The programs will air from 7 am to 9 am. If at all possible, please call in to the show to express your views. We need to overwhelm the anti's with facts. The call-in number is 608-321-1670. For factual information, check out the literature on our resources page at http://www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com Thanks, The Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association
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Did Goatboy ban all the WI members while the board was done? Where you all at? (If you say at the range warming up your K9 because you were writing letters all last night, you're forgiven! [:D] )
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 10:51:38 AM EDT
BTT Come on WI Members! I've got an email into Dick Baker to see which Senators we need to write to. Mine's very anti -- Senator Fred Risser. [:(] What is YOUR senator's position on the PPA? And if you don't know, why not? Call them!!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 11:23:58 AM EDT
More info from Dick Baker:
Hi, Corey. Of the 33 senators, eight have so far indicated they are absolutely for it. There's probably a couple of Democrats or more who'd be for it. If it came down to the Republicans pressuring the senators, Peggy Rosenzweig and Alberta Darling are questionable. Rosenzweig often votes anti-gun. Our next target is senator Wirch of Kenosha. He's the swing vote on the judiciary committee, and we've been targeting him with mail. On Saturday I'm going to the largest gun shop in Kenosha to camp out and get people to write postcards to him. Senator Gary George is chairman of the committee, and whether or not it goes to a committee vote is up to him. He's running for governor and isn't exactly buddies with Chvala, so it will be very interesting to see what happens with him. Tomorrow I'm going up to the capitol to visit senators' offices again and try to get a head count. When that's done, I'll send out an alert with as much info as I'm able to get. Thanks, Dick
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Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:17:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: What is YOUR senator's position on the PPA? And if you don't know, why not? Call them!!
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Senator Brian Burke is my senator. I don't know if he is for or against since he hasn't answered a single one of the four hand written letters i've sent to him in the last five months. I'm 99.9% sure he is an anti.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:27:58 PM EDT
sweet...I'm from the Twin Cities area, and here in Mn the vote was very very close, but the issue appears to be dead for yet another year..I'd love for Wisconsin to pass it, so the possibility of Mn recognizing Wi's permit, I'd be spending some cash in Wi!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:33:48 PM EDT
This bill, while better than no ccw at all, is sure full of a lot of shit. The one part that worries me is this: "under the bill, a county sherrif must issue a license to carry a concealed weapon to a person who meets the qualifications established in the bill for the license [b]unless the county board of the sheriff's county decides by a two-thrids vote, taken before the fourth month after the bill becomes law, to authorize the sheriff not to issue concealed licenses[/b] he or she may still choose to do so." For a while I had thought this was a "shall issue" bill. It isn't really. Another thing that bothers me is all of the damn fees they are tacking on. Shooting range improvement fee. Law enforcement excellence fee. Too bad about the 9 months in prison part of the current cc ban. If it weren't for that I would probably just carry and worry about the fine if I get caught. I always wonder why we have to deal with this at all when the wisconsin constitution says that we have the right to keep and bear arms for defense. It makes no mention of the right only applying when at home. The courts are too full of traitors shit balls to let a constitutional challenge to the carry ban win. I need to move out of this socialist hell hole.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 1:02:58 PM EDT
Al: The PPA allows local sheriffs to opt out of issue the permits. My guess is that this was put in there to allow counties who think it would be too much of a financial burden (or who are anti) to opt out. HOWEVER, a WI resident can go to ANY sheriff who issues to get a WI CHL permit. The law would also allow counties to coordinate efforts at issuing CHL's to save resources. I agree that the Vermont model is the best (and most constitutionally sound) "CHL" out there. But, we're not going to get that.... Currently, there are two cases (St. v. Gonzalez and St. v. Cole) before the WI Supreme Court where the defendants are challenging sec. 941.23, Stats., which is the current CCW law. The challenge is based on WI's recent constitutional amendment giving the RKBA for sport, defense, etc. I still have to read the briefs, but I understand that the NRA has filed an Amicus brief in Gonzalez. Cole's issue mirrors that of Gonzalez, so the two are essentially companion cases on the same issue. Oral Arguments are coming up April 16, 2002 if you're interested.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 4:39:23 PM EDT
Ahh, I didn't know that I could go to any sherrif. So as long as one sherrif doesn't opt out we have shall issue (provided you meet the background requirements). THat isn't so bad. If this passes the senate, will the gov. sign? I did like that all other states permits will be honored. I'l read about these court cases, thanks.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:10:30 PM EDT
Mine is Fitzgerald. Voted yes! I will be sending him a thank you, believe me. Thanks for all the nice work. I will be sending some letters out as well.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:25:40 PM EDT
Corey, Thanks for posting this man! I haven't been posting much online for several weeks. You're a good man to keep everyone updated. I was just getting ready to post, verbatim, exactly what you already have. People, this is the best pro-rights firearm news to come through Wisconsin since the right to keep and bear was added to the state constitution. PLEASE write your Senators and firmly request that they hear and support this bill! If you've already written them, thank you. But we need you to write them again. At the last public hearing there were only a few people argueing against this bill and HUNDREDS turned out in support. We really need this kind of feedback going directly to the Senate. I don't like some of the restrictions either, but I'm willing to accept them. Carrying legally in MOST places is much better than not carrying in all places. This made the 6pm news in Madison, and I expect to see it on the 10pm news as well. Of course all they focused on were the people who are against. The reporter (I forget her name) even said that the MAPD was against the bill. When they showed the interview with one of the Sheriffs, (in an amazing show of circular reasoning) all he said was that having everyone legally carrying concealed would make their job more difficult. This is true in the sense that the police would not know who was carrying, but they already don't know who carries now. The benefit is that those people who legally go through the hassle of getting certified are much more likely to be upstanding citizens anyway. BTW, I just got an email from Dick Baker. Apparently his phone has been ringing off the hook!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:36:57 PM EDT
Fox6 here in milwaukee had a blurb about it tonight. They did a call in poll and the results were something like 75% pro CCW. I was glad that they showed that. Hopefully some senators were watching the news since they'll pretty much vote whichever way will keep them in [b]power[/b]. When they were announcing the results the reporter made some crack like "amazingly" or something else that sounded like he thought all of the yes voters were crazy.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:43:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 5:47:34 PM EDT by Muad_Dib]
WISC-TV3 has a poll running right now. GO VOTE on their poll! [url]http://www.channel3000.com/news/1272415/detail.html[/url] Here is the current lay of the votes: Choice Votes Percent of 968 votes Yes, everyday, everywhere I go. 197 20% Yes, sometimes. 255 26% Probably not, but it's nice to have an option. 255 26% No way. 261 27%
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:51:51 PM EDT
[url]http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/feb02/23584.asp[/url] Assembly OKs concealed weapon legislation Associated Press Last Updated: Feb. 27, 2002 Madison - Wisconsin residents who qualify for a permit would be allowed to carry a concealed weapon under legislation the Assembly approved early Wednesday after a weary and sometimes bitterly personal debate. Legislature Legislation (pdf): Assembly Bill 675 After more than four hours of debate, lawmakers voted 58-40 to approve the bill that would end the state's 130-year-old ban on concealed weapons. Rep. Jennifer Shilling, D-La Crosse, urged lawmakers to reject the bill. She recounted for her colleagues how her parents and five employees of Brown's Chicken and Pasta were killed Jan. 8, 1993, during an apparent robbery at the Palatine, Ill., restaurant. Often on the edge of tears, she said the Legislature should be more concerned with taking guns away from criminals than making it easier for citizens to carry them. "This is insane what we're doing," Shilling said. "When will this end? Why is it we need to stoop to the level of those thugs and the bad guys?" The Assembly sent the bill to the Senate. It has to be approved by the Senate and signed by Gov. Scott McCallum to become law. The Assembly unexpectedly took up the bill just before midnight Tuesday after partisan bickering that began mid-afternoon over campaign finance reform and other bills stretched into the night. Usually, a bill must first be approved by a committee before a vote by the full chamber. But the Assembly took the rare move of pulling the bill from a committee to debate it. Rep. Scott Gunderson, R-Waterford, one of the bill's sponsors, said he was attacked one night outside of the gun shop that he owns by someone with an iron bar. He said having a gun on him might not have stopped that attack. But allowing Wisconsin citizens to carry weapons could make criminals think twice before committing violent acts. "There's no doubt this is about law-abiding citizens," Gunderson said. "I think we have to remember that the bad guys won't be the ones going to apply for a permit. The bad guys will still be out there, breaking the law and doing those things that we don't agree with." The debate was edgy at times as it stretched into the early morning and lawmakers' patience wore thin. Opponents continuously criticized Assembly leaders for proceeding with the debate without legislative attorneys and drafters present to help analyze the impact of proposed amendments. Rep. Johnnie Morris-Tatum, D-Milwaukee, said the bill would only lead to more violence in Milwaukee and was critical of the bill's authors because they could not answer some questions about proposed amendments. "You seem as clueless about Milwaukee as you do about your own amendments," she said. The bill would allow residents to apply with a county sheriff for a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Applicants would have to meet a series of requirements to receive the permit, including being at least 21 years old and being eligible to carry a firearm under federal law.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:52:29 PM EDT
Those with permits would still be banned from carrying concealed weapons in places such as police stations and prisons. Under the bill, a sheriff would have to do a background check on all applicants except police officers. Current law bans the carrying of concealed weapons, which is punishable by a $10,000 fine or nine months in prison. It also bans carrying a firearm within 1,000 feet of a school, into a government building or a tavern or a restaurant with a liquor license. Police officers are exempt from those laws. The concealed weapons law has been in effect since 1872 and has been virtually unchanged since 1878, according to the Justice Department
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:58:15 PM EDT
Muad: Where you been man? Family and school running you down? I should've emailed you. We're heading into our second set of molars (then we're done -- woo hoo!) so I can understand not being online a lot. I think I'm going to bring a bunch of postage paid postcards to Rusk gunshop and see if they'll help ask people to send them in. I know a few of guys there and they are obviously all pro-PPA. Maybe do here what Dick is doing in Kenosha. I was one of the PPA supporters at the Waukesha hearing. It was great to see all the pros outnumber the few antis! Let's [i]overwhelm[/i] the Senate with pro-PPA letters! Get your wife, kids, friends, family, neighbors, coworkers, etc. to send something in. Heck, I've even sent letters to people with postage paid envelopes so they can sign, seal and drop them! LET'S DO SOMETHING [b]NOW[/b]!!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:11:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: Muad: Where you been man? Family and school running you down?
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Yeah, that about covers it. Tonight is the only night I've got this week where I don't absolutely have to study until 11pm. So I'm online trying to get the word out! And my wife started accusing me of being addicted to AR15.com so I had to prove that I wasn't. The truth is, I think I really was an addict. After about 2 weeks of only reading the equipment exchange I stopped getting cravings [:)] Rusk gun shop was highlighted on the news tonight. They are definetely PRO. If you bring them a bunch of postcards I'm certain they'll hand them out for you. There is a S.A.F.E.R. (Student Alliance for Firearm Education and Responsibility) meeting Thursday night. We're trying to print up a bunch of postage paid postcards as well. We now have to re-write our cards to include the fact that this bill passed the assembly! I'm so pumped over this now! I didn't expect the assembly to even hear this bill, let alone vote FOR IT!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:12:25 PM EDT
Rep. Jennifer Shilling, D-La Crosse, urged lawmakers to reject the bill. She recounted for her colleagues how her parents and five employees of Brown's Chicken and Pasta were killed Jan. 8, 1993, during an apparent robbery at the Palatine, Ill., restaurant. Often on the edge of tears, she said the Legislature should be more concerned with taking guns away from criminals than making it easier for citizens to carry them. "This is insane what we're doing," Shilling said. "When will this end? Why is it we need to stoop to the level of those thugs and the bad guys?"
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I really feel badly for her. I mean, who wouldn't? But, if I were in there with my 1911 and a spare mag, could I possibly have prevented this tragedy? Can't guarantee it, but I'll take a chance over a slaughter any day. She's just afraid and much too idealistic to think that you can keep guns out of criminals hands. I feel terrible for the traumatic experience and loss she suffered, but think her answer is wrong. Absolutely dead wrong. If it's ever my family in that restaurant, I want to trust my shooting skills before I trust a criminal's "compassion" and willingness to comply with the law anyday. BTW, 75% on that online poll say carry or nice to have the option. Only about 20-25% say no way. Let's hope they're all voters.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:13:23 PM EDT
My Senator (Russ Decker) isn't listed, but I wrote him last week and he says he's for it, so we'll see.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:19:11 PM EDT
Muad: Is SAFER a pro-gun student group? I could maybe help out with paper, printing, and postage for stuff. My wife's firm has let me raid their office supplies a few times and has paid for a bunch of postage so far. I could maybe get postage paid postcards for you or send out any letters that you collect. Lemme know. Last time I was there late at night copying stuff, they had some pretty good beer in the fridge. [:D]
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:25:39 PM EDT
Obviously Rep. Jennifer Shilling never heard of Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp. Actually, many here may not have. I recently moved up here from Texas. In Texas Dr. Hupp got to watch both of her parents get shot at the infamous Luby's shooting in Texas. Dr. Hupp's pistol was in the car because at the time it was illegal for her to carry it. She figured out real quick how well gun control works. The thought that she had going through her mind wasn't "oh those awful guns" It was, "If I had mine right now..." Guess what, Representative Hupp is the reason Texas now has CHL. This woman is someone worthy of respect: http://www.house.state.tx.us/house/dist54/dist54.htm http://www.wmsa.net/gratia-hupp_1992.htm
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:39:11 PM EDT
The 1000 feet of a school thing rather bothers me. Take a town map and draw a 1/5 mile radius around the property line of every elementary, middle, and high school in town and see if you can legally drive from one side of town to the other. Now exclude pretty much all restaurants (and of course your place of employment) and, well, that doesn't leave a lot. I still strongly support it, and if it happens like in Texas they may even come back and fix the school crap, but it ain't perfect. By the way, how much does it cost and how long will it be good for? What are the class requirements like?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:02:09 PM EDT
lazy: Yeah, I've heard of Dr. (or is it Rep.) Hupp. There was recently a dometic violence victim down in IL who was killed by her partner (he violated restraining orders, bail, no-gun orders, etc.). IL had recently failed to pass legislation allowing restraining order victims to CCW. Needless to say, this left the IL rep's who voted against it with a lot of explaining to do. Why is it that [i]even[/i] more people need to die, and in perfectly scripted fact situations, for the legislature (or, I guess, [i]everyone[/i]) to finally realize legal CCW is the only final, and best option. Muad, I really need to get you out to Deerfield this spring.... Email me if you're available some Saturday afternoon. Maybe after finals?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:19:34 PM EDT
This [b]IS[/b] great news! Peggy Rosenzweig is my State Senator. She never even bothered replying to my last letter - I'll just have to send a longer one and follow it up with a phone call I guess. I've got two friends who live in Chvala's utopia of Madison. I just sold one of them a Makarov and holster for a song so I've got him mailing a letter. I'm working on another friend, a woman, to let me write her letter for her. Not that Chvala gonna change his tune or anything, but it'll sure ruin his day. I work with a couple of people from Kenosha, tomorrow I'll approach them about sending something to Wirch. Also, I was looking at the excellent MCRGO.org website. They've got an interesting history regarding ccw. It seems the ku klux klan lobbied the state government back in 1907 to not let people carry concealed. It all stems from a 1905 self-defense shooting by a black man being attacked by a white mob pissed off that he moved into a white neighborhood. It would interesting to see what circumstances led to WI banning carry back in 1872 - any idea where to find out something like that?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:35:59 PM EDT
Why does everyone get so excited when we write more laws to control us more? The onus should be on repealing the current CCW restrictions, not creating new ones. North Carolina has a CHL law that isn't worth a damn. Pro gun people call it progress when they have to waste huge amounts of engery and time getting a weak law passed, all the while reinforcing the absolute power of the state. Sorry for the cynicism, but I don't see much light at the end of the tunnel tonight. Carefully restricted firearms privileges are a sad replacement for the RKBA. The WI constitution is meaningless if it doesn't do what it really says.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:44:19 PM EDT
Dolo: Great research! I'll try to look into it when I have time. First, I like to look at the briefs filed in Gonzalez/Cole. Considering that fact that they are two blocks away and I haven't looked at them yet should tell you something. Maybe with my next paycheck I'll copy the briefs (which should include a lot of thw WI CCW history) along with the NRA amicus and see if I can get them scanned. Then I email then out to anyone that wanted them. I'm still trying to get that AR15.com membership, but between the postage paid postcards and copies of the briefs, there goes my spring bulk ammo order.... I'll see what I can do. BTW Dolo, how much dry firing you been doing? I'm looking at a printer sized IDPA target right now that's hanging in my computer room. Not enough energy to do anything about it, though. IIRC you rock with your little custom snubbie. I'd hate to see you with a "real" weapon. [;)]
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:05:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: Muad: Is SAFER a pro-gun student group?
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Thanks for the offer but we actually have about $300 in club grant money to get rid of in the next month, so we're covered. We are DEFINITELY pro-gun! And we're a university sponsored student club. How's that for an oxymoron? The club president and I have both passed out flyers and taken names for WCCA whenever there is a gun show in Madison. Man, whenever I can find the time to go to Deerfield I'll definitely let you know. I haven't even shot my pistol in about 2 months! I'm having timing problems with this shorty pre-ban AR I've built and I don't have the time to go shoot the damned thing and figure out what's wrong! UGH! I should probably just decide on a weekend to go and make it happen.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:44:24 AM EDT
BTT I might try to copy the Gonzalez/Cole briefs today at lunch. I'll see how it goes.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:14:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 6:17:11 PM EDT by Corey]
If this is good enough for a link to GlocksterTalkster.comster (thanks Muad!), then it's good enough for a big, fat, [size=6][red]B[/red][white]T[/white][blue]T[/blue][/size=6]. [:D] EDITED to fix code -- I'm new to these fancy text thingamabobs.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:08:42 PM EDT
Not to rain on this parade or anything, but there is no way in hell the democrate run senate will allow this to come to a vote!
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:23:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raid: Not to rain on this parade or anything, but there is no way in hell the democrate run senate will allow this to come to a vote!
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I'm afraid you've got that right. If it comes around again we'll probably have a gov. who will kill it.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 5:44:28 AM EDT
Corey, any luck on the Gonzalez briefs? I don't live in Wisconsin, but I am always interested in this kind of stuff.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 6:34:25 AM EDT
Here's the letter I recently sent off to my Sate Senator: Dear Senator Rosenzweig: Are you aware of a study released in 1998 by the Violence Policy Center highlighting the number of Texas Concealed Handgun Licensees who have been arrested since their version of Wisconsin's Personal Protection Act became law? According to the VPC, of the 212,000 Texans with permits hundreds upon hundreds have been arrested for an array of horrible crimes. The VPC asserts that Texas Concealed Handgun License holders have an arrest rate 66% higher than the general adult population. I am sure that you are as shocked as I was when I initially took in this data. It is amazing. To think, that such a blatantly identifiable group of criminals-to-be would go to the trouble of submitting a photo of themselves, be fingerprinted, undergo a rigorous background investigation, and then top it all off by paying $140 to their State government. All this, just to have the option of carrying a firearm for the protection of themselves and their families, an option enjoyed by citizens in 44 other States. In isolated manner in which they present their research, these numbers from the VPC study paint an ugly picture, until you break out the old calculator and do a little math that is: Unfortunately, for those trying to get down to the truth of the matter, they do not separate crimes that involve concealed weapons from those that do not. Secondly, they remove the statistic that more than 55% of licensees arrested for violent crimes are cleared of the crimes for which they were arrested. Thirdly, and most relevant, when arrest rates of Texas Concealed Handgun License permit holders are compared with those of the general population, CHLs are found to be more law abiding than the average person, specifically - „h CHLs were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public (127 per 100,000 of population compared to 730 per 100,000) „h CHLs were 14 times less likely to be arrested for nonviolent offenses than the general public (386 per 100,000 compared to 5,212 per 100,000) Overall, the average Texan is 1.4 times more likely to be arrested for murder than any man or woman holding a Texas Concealed Handgun Licensee. Further, the number of licensees arrested for negligent manslaughter is found to be ZERO. Peggy, the bottom line here is this: There aren't enough decimals on the right side of a calculator to show the percentage of concealed weapon permit holders that are convicted of violent crimes much less commit them. Do you think that Wisconsinites will be better or worse than Texans when it comes down to personal conduct and personal responsibility? In the early 1990s, Texas' serious crime rate was 38% above the national average. Since Texas started allowing private citizens to protect themselves, crime in Texas dropped 50% faster than for the nation as a whole - I believe Wisconsin will fare much better. In addition, would you agree that individuals seeking more information on this subject should be aware that the VPC studies are nothing more than emotional pleas foreboding tragedies that have never occurred? As your constituent, I would appreciate knowing your position on the Wisconsin Personal Protection Act so that my friends, families, and neighbors can decide where our support will lie in any upcoming elections. Smoochies, Dolomite
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 12:06:35 PM EDT
Senator Gary George, chairman of the senate judiciary committee, has generously agreed to hold a public hearing on Senate Bill #357-Citizens Right To Carry Date: SAT. MARCH 9th 2002 Location: EAGLES CLUB CHIPPEWA FALLS (on highway 53 across from Farm&Fleet) Time: 2:00-3:00 P.M. BE THERE!! We need your support to vote in favor Anyone interested in speaking: *There may not be time for everyone to speak. Please bring written testimony.
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I will not be able to be at this hearing, although I was at the Waukasha one. I will be at the following, even if I have to run up to the capitol in between court appearances (and this is old news that I'm posting again to remind everyone):
State Senator David Zien, author of the senate concealed carry bill, is organizing a rally in the state capitol for March 5th. This is a day when he expects the greatest number of legislators to be in their offices. This is a chance for all of us to engage in a show of force in the halls of the legislature. It will be pretty tough for representatives to ignore hundreds upon hundreds of demonstrators outside their doors. Please make every effort to be present at this event, even if it means taking a day off from work. We only have a precious few months in which to get this bill passed, and we need to apply pressure in every form. Car-pooling or even renting a bus to leave from a particular area would be the most cost efficient way to do this. If you would like to coordinate a car pooling or bus rental effort in your area, please contact me and I'll put others in touch with you. Either way, we need as many people to show as possible. Please forward this to every gun owner you know. Thanks, Dick Baker Treasurer, Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association http://www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com
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BTW, does anyone know what time the rallyis on March 5? I'll shoot an email back to Dick Baker. So, anyone else plan on going to the rally and Chippewa Falls hearing?
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 12:12:12 PM EDT
ckapsl: I'll try to get those briefs next week. I'll see if I can get them scanned and then distribute via email. This isn't really time sensitive, and I haven't made it a top priority. I'm really looking forward to reading them, however. I'm particularly interested to see if either of the defendants requested an evidentiary hearing on the issue of why "bear arms" means CCW. If it were my case (as defense attorney), I'd present evidence that open carry could result in arrest from the GG's and gun snatching by the BG's.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 12:38:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: I'm particularly interested to see if either of the defendants requested an evidentiary hearing on the issue of why "bear arms" means CCW. If it were my case (as defense attorney), I'd present evidence that open carry could result in arrest from the GG's and gun snatching by the BG's.
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Good point! Unfortunately I won't be able to make it to Chip Falls either - is anyone from this forum gonna make it?
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 12:45:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dolomite:
Originally Posted By Corey: I'm particularly interested to see if either of the defendants requested an evidentiary hearing on the issue of why "bear arms" means CCW. If it were my case (as defense attorney), I'd present evidence that open carry could result in arrest from the GG's and gun snatching by the BG's.
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Good point! Unfortunately I won't be able to make it to Chip Falls either - is anyone from this forum gonna make it?
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Can't. Busy time at work and it's a bit of a drive from Milwaukee. Pisses me off too. I got stuck in a meeting that screwed me out of the Waukesha hearing as well.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 12:52:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 12:56:35 PM EDT by Muad_Dib]
Corey, You're really on the ball. Crap, I just realized that I can't make the hearing. Maybe I'll see you at the capital rally. Hopefully there will be a sea of pro-CCW people to wade through. I haven't heard what time it is either, but I plan on skipping classes to be there.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 7:24:39 PM EDT
And here is the official word. Please pass it.
Hi, Corey. Show up anytime between 8am and 4pm. Speakers on the capitol steps are scheduled for noon to 1pm. The NRA was trying to get a big name speaker, but I haven't heard anything yet. If I do, I'll send an alert out since that would bring more people. Thanks, Dick
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Muad and Dolo, when are you going to be there? I'll definitely be there from 12-1, as I don't have any court over lunchtime (hopefully). Lemme know when you'll be there and where. Maybe we can meet for an early lunch (of the bag variety) and then hit the rally. Heck, I'll even give you my cell number to contact me so we can meet up.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 5:42:51 AM EDT
Corey & Dolomite, I'll be there from noon to 1:00 also. I might show up a little early, but I definitely want to be there during all the talks. I've always got a sack lunch with me so if you want to get together and talk while we eat I'm up for it. I just hope all this snow doesn't reduce the turnout.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 2:31:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2002 2:45:29 PM EDT by Muad_Dib]
Everyone, I just received a 3 minute recorded message from the NRA legislative division about the rally on Tuesday. It is definitely happening! You must attend! The NRA is finally putting some major effort into passing the PPA in Wisconsin and now is the time to show your support.
Wisconsin Legislative Update Tuesday, March 5, a rally supporting the future of Wisconsin Right to Carry will be held at the State Capitol in Madison. Rally participants will rally outside the North Wing of the State Capitol, on North Hamilton Street, at 12:00 noon. Please make plans to attend and show your support.
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[url] http://www.nraila.org/LegislativeUpdate.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=276[/url] I'll be skipping classes to be there.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 2:32:48 PM EDT
WCCA alert: where the senators stand on the concealed carry bill After lots of talking, we've been able to establish the positions of the state senators on SB 357, Senator Zien's shall-issue concealed carry bill. Time is running short, so it is imperative that you contact your state senator NOW to let them know how you feel. A hand-written letter or postcard is absolutely the most effective. If you don't have the time to write, then make a phone call. They need to hear from you by Friday, March 8th. Please note that some of the senators in the "undecided" category have privately indicated they may support the bill, but do not want that position made public. If you don't know who your state senator is, go to http://www.legis.state.wi.us/wamltest to find out. We've had a tremendous victory with the passage in the assembly. Whether or not we follow up on that victory in the senate depends upon you. Please forward this to every gun owner you know, and make sure they contact their senators as well. SUPPORTING, OR LEANING TOWARD SUPPORTING: Sen. James Baumgart (608)-266-2056 Sen. Robert Cowles (608)-266-0484 Sen. Michael Ellis (608)-266-0718 Sen. Scott Fitzgerald (608)-266-5660 Sen. Sheila Harsdorf (608)-266-7745 Sen. Joanne Huelsman (608)-266-2635 Sen. Ted Kanavas (608)-266-9174 Sen. Alan Lasee (608)-266-3512 Sen. Mark Meyer (608)-266-5490 Sen. Dale Schultz (608)-266-0703 Sen. Robert Welch (608)-266-0751 Sen. David Zien (608)-266-7511 UNDECIDED: Sen. Roger Breske (608)-266-2509 Sen. Alberta Darling (608)-266-5830 Sen. Russell Decker (608)-266-2502 Sen. Jon Erpenbach (608)-266-6670 Sen. Gary George (608)-266-2500 Sen. Dave Hansen (608)-266-5670 Sen. Robert Jauch (608)-266-3510 Sen. Mary Lazich (608)-266-5400 Sen. Gwendolynne Moore (608)-266-5810 Sen. Mary Panzer (608)-266-7513 Sen. Judy Robson (608)-266-2253 Sen. Carol Roessler (608)-266-5300 Sen. Kevin Shibilski (608)-266-3123 OPPOSED, OR LEANING TOWARD OPPOSING: Sen. Brian Burke (608)-266-8535 Sen. Chuck Chvala (608)-266-9170 Sen. Richard Grobschmidt (608)-266-7505 Sen. Rodney Moen (608)-266-8546 Sen. Kimberly Plache (608)-266-1832 Sen. Fred Risser (608)-266-1627 Sen. Peggy Rosenzweig (608)-266-2512 POSITION UNKNOWN (DID NOT RESPOND IN TIME FOR THIS ALERT): Sen. Robert Wirch (608)-267-8979
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 6:29:26 PM EDT
Muad: Beat me to it! I was analyzing where everyone stands and have come up with the following: Supporters: 12 Majority needed to pass: 17 Number of undecided Senators we need: 5 Supporters: - 10 R's - 2 D's Undecided: - 4 R's - 9 D's Opposed: - 1 R - 6 D's Here's the scenario: We need 5 votes to force this to come to the floor and pass it. If we get the 4 undecided R's, then we only need 1 undecided D. Keep 4 R's and get one D. And it's off the the Governor's desk.... Maybe we could be picking up our CHL's come the fall. Does anyone know where to get a hold of a "holding my breath" or "on the edge of my seat" emoticon? [b]People, if your senator is in the undecided catagory, they must get overwhelmed with letters and phone calls urging support of the PPA.[/b] Ain't no two ways about it. Make it happen.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 8:07:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: Maybe we could be picking up our CHL's come the fall.
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That would be sweet! I wonder how long the wait would be. Someone would have to organize the training and certificaiton classes first, and I'm sure the waiting list would be pretty long. At any rate, I'd stand in line over night to get into one of those classes!
Does anyone know where to get a hold of a "holding my breath" or "on the edge of my seat" emoticon?
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Don't hold your breath. Yell at the top of your lungs so that all the Senate can hear you! [soapbox]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 10:05:03 AM EDT
Muad: VG on the [soapbox]. I think the pieces to the puzzle are in place for most of the training, etc. I know Rusk gunshop sent one of their guys (I think he's a manager type -- John, I've bought more than a few guns from him) to become an NRA instructor. I appeared to me that the training was basically certifying them to teach CHL classes, although it wasn't specifically stated in the class title. Forms, etc., are pretty easy. We can copy what is being done in other states and the PPA says what is needed. Sheriffs do background checks like this all the time, so that is in place (although manpower might be an issue). I know a number of sympathetic cops (all very experienced firearms instructors) and DA's/ADA's that would be willing to teach the LEO's how to handle CHL holders during traffic stops, etc. I know other states had to "re-educate" their cops to deal with armed citizens. But, no major problems there. All we need is a few sheriffs to pony up for ID making equipement, although they probably already have that as well. I've heard from other states (in news articles, etc.) that it sounds like they started with pretty basic systems and moved to more advanced, costly systems once they got into it a ways. I'm sure there's more to it, but you get the point. I hope at this point that Senator Zien can get the PPA to the floor for a vote. I believe it takes a majority to force a vote, and if he can force a vote, then we probably have enough votes to pass it!! I believe that the governor will probably sign it (the will of the people, and all that stuff), but don't know for sure. At the end of all this (whichever way it goes), there will be some Democratic Reps/Sens who deserve our thanks. There will also be some Republican Reps/Sens who deserve to get voted out of office. IIRC the legislative session ends 3/14/02. So we will probably know which way the PPA will go maybe by the end of next week!! And I'm done with letters (which are never answered with anything more than a "Thank you, if it comes up for a vote I'll consider your letter") for Senator Fred Risser. On Monday his office is getting a phone call!! [soapbox] [:D]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:03:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: And I'm done with letters (which are never answered with anything more than a "Thank you, if it comes up for a vote I'll consider your letter") for Senator Fred Risser. On Monday his office is getting a phone call!! [soapbox]
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He's such a whining "your government will take care of you" sucker. The first letter I got from him about the PPA said [b]straight out[/b]that he felt that it was not the place of the people to defend themselves. That the police and fire department were doing a fantastic job and that police across WI are against CCW. This was right after I'd read a story of how the Sherrif in Milwaukee was a big supporter. Risser doesn't even reply to my mail any more, nor does he return my phone calls. I still call and write anyway. I'd say worse things about him, but this is a public forum and I wouldn't want to soil his "reputation". He can kiss my big white [moon]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:43:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: Someone would have to organize the training and certification classes first, and I'm sure the waiting list would be pretty long. At any rate, I'd stand in line over night to get into one of those classes!
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If we follow the lead of Michigan and some other states, one type of acceptable training would be Masaad Ayoob's LFI-1 (the lecture portion of which is beyond excellent). Another approved form of training is the NRA's Personal Protection in the Home course. I happen to know a few NRA PP instructors since I am one [^] Yep, that's right ladies, Dolomite's an NRA Certified Instructor in Basic Pistol and Personal Protection as well as a Certified NRA Range Safety Officer (and a LFI-1 graduate to top it all off). Why did I take all that training? To share it with my friends of course[:D]
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 7:53:39 AM EDT
All right. I just found out I [b]can[/b] make it tomorrow (weaseled in a day of vacation at the last minute). Hopefully, my Senator (Rosenzweig) will be in to answer why she can't respond to my letters. I'm also draggin a co-worker along. His Sen. is Grobschmidt, and he's the one claiming that he's casting his vote against the bill due to his conversations with Police big wigs in his area. Corey, I'll send an IM to you with my cell phone number - give me a call tomorrow before the rally. See you all there!
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 8:58:30 AM EDT
It was freezing here this morning -- in the low single digits. It's suppose to be cold today, with the possibility of some flurries this afternoon (althought it's bright with light clouds right now). Tomorrow they're calling for a low of 30 and high of 38 degrees. It should be clear but windy. Nice day for a rally, huh? [:D] Dolo -- I'll check my IM's and get back to you with my cell and office numbers. I am free from probably around 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. Hit me up and we'll link up. I already have Muad's info and will be trying meet up with him as well. One of my friends speculated that the special guest speaker might be Massad Ayoob. Isn't he going to be in Milwaukee soon for a WCCA fundraiser? We are SOOO close here! WCCA is gearing up for gun show coverage this spring -- this thing just took off so huge that they're planning a contingency for coverage if it passes the Senate. I can't see McCallum vetoing this. He needs as much help getting elected this fall as he can get. He can sign it into law saying it's the "will of the people by a bipartisan legislative vote" to deflect any criticism. I don't think any voters will hold the signing of the PPA into law against him. However, he will instantly lose the gun owner base if he vetoes it. Vetoing the PPA would be political suicide for McCallum. Any thoughts on this, or do you agree? See you guys tomorrow!
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