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Posted: 2/26/2002 3:28:20 PM EDT
Just because I want to know, and evaluate my shooting skills against the standards of the various military services, can anyone tell me exactly what the various services use as their marksmanship standards for their various levels of marksmanship awards? For example, Air Force Small Arms expert marksman requires you to put X bullets into Y area (specify target type and range) in Z time with W bullets allocated to the trial. Marine Corps, same thing. Same for Army. And Navy. What target, at what range, how many shots, what percentage hits or misses, how long you have, and type of firearm. All the relevant data. I'll be mostly interested in this data for M16's /AR-15's and the 1911 pistol. Thanks, CJ
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 3:41:22 PM EDT
USMC- Target sillouettes- "Dog Target" 19x26" "B-Mod" 60x20 200yds- 5 rounds standing, 5 sitting 5 kneeling (2 points for a hit w/in 12" of center mass for 200yd sitting kneeling,standing only), 10 rapid fire kneeling (Dog Target) 300yds- 5 kneeling, 10 rapid fire prone (Dog target) 500yds-10 rounds prone (B-mod target) Marksman = 25 hits Sharpshooter =35 Expert = 40 Total rounds = 50 Total possible score = 60 The Marines will then qualify with all their combat gear and gas masks, but this is not included in the score.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 3:49:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: USMC- Target sillouettes- "Dog Target" 19x26" "B-Mod" 60x20 200yds- 5 rounds standing, 5 sitting 5 kneeling (2 points for a hit w/in 12" of center mass for 200yd sitting kneeling,standing only), 10 rapid fire kneeling (Dog Target) 300yds- 5 kneeling, 10 rapid fire prone (Dog target) 500yds-10 rounds prone (B-mod target) Marksman = 25 hits Sharpshooter =35 Expert = 40 Total rounds = 50 Total possible score = 60 The Marines will then qualify with all their combat gear and gas masks, but this is not included in the score.
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I haven't qualified since boot camp - but I've taken up NRA HighPower. Think I'll have any advantages? My kneeling is my weakest position, and I've been working on it lately. I can't help but wonder how I'll do come game day this year, since it's finally my turn to go to the range again.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 3:56:33 PM EDT
Army: 20 rounds fired from a foxhole at pop-up targets ranging from 50-300m. Targets are "E" silhouettes (19"x39") except for the 50m, which is only the head and shoulders of an "E" (about 12"x16" visible, I'd guess.) Targets may come up singly or in pairs, and will remain exposed for 3-8 seconds. Next, 20 rounds fired from a prone unsupported position, with the same target conditions. IMO, the computerized scoring system used is very inaccurate. Lightweight plastic targets are used, and the computer picks up the vibration of the target as the bullet passes through it. However, in many cases you can literally see daylight through the center of the 50m-150m targets, which leads me to believe your bullets don't create much of a vibration as they pass through air. Also, in hot weather the targets become so soft that they recommend double-targetting, but that's never done. My CSM once heard me say something along those lines and told me that if I got a score of x, then it means I only hit x targets. My offer to fire a course at brand-new targets and go count the holes afterwards wasn't acted upon [:D]
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 4:02:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2002 4:04:25 PM EDT by MarineGrunt]
MCWARRIOR- You will be fine. Just remember a few things: 1) Forget about expert. If you get it, great. But don't get all pissy at the 300yd line because you only have a 15. Keep a clear mind. 2) FILL OUT YOUR DAMN DATA BOOK!!! I can't tell you how many shooters I've instructed, told them that, and then when theyre at the 500yd line, have 5 shots left and need five hits to pass, only then do they ask for help. I ask to see their data book and the damn thing is blank. All I say is "I cant help you. Have fun at requal." 3) Remember your fundamentals!!! 4) RELAX!!! 5) FRONT SIGHT POST!!! [b]6) NATURAL POINT OF AIM!!!!![/b] 7) Good luck
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 7:39:50 PM EDT
Nice thing about the army system is you can get credit for a hit when you miss...hit low and the debris kicked up by the round will often put the target down. We use the 3-D like silouhettes that kinda look like a midget chinaman witha weapon across his chest at the 100 -300 ranges, that thing is a bit narrower than a reg. E- type I think.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 7:46:06 PM EDT
I'll have to get some of those targets and try my luck. But the range I go to isn't set up for kneeling or prone positions as of yet, so I'll have to settle for sitting and standing. OK, so we've got USMC and Army standards, sort of. (What about the different qualification levels for the Army?) Anybody got Air Force and Navy standards? CJ
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 8:14:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 203gnr: Nice thing about the army system is you can get credit for a hit when you miss...hit low and the debris kicked up by the round will often put the target down. We use the 3-D like silouhettes that kinda look like a midget chinaman witha weapon across his chest at the 100 -300 ranges, that thing is a bit narrower than a reg. E- type I think.
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I remember them telling us that the debris kicked up would knock down the target, but that isn't actually the case. If you hit a few feet (or yards) in front of the target, the bullet will actually deflect from the ground due to the shallow angle and go through the target, knocking it down. Take a good tactical shooting course and you will learn about what they call "bouncing bullets".
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 8:17:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2002 8:18:58 PM EDT by Bedlam]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: I'll have to get some of those targets and try my luck. But the range I go to isn't set up for kneeling or prone positions as of yet, so I'll have to settle for sitting and standing. OK, so we've got USMC and Army standards, sort of. (What about the different qualification levels for the Army?) Anybody got Air Force and Navy standards? CJ
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If I remember correctly, the army standards when I was in (last time I qualified was in '91) were: 23-29=Marksman; 30-35=Sharpshooter; 36-40=Expert. This is for rifle qualification, the pistol is different and I don't remember it anymore.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 8:55:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2002 8:58:43 PM EDT by Zardoz]
The Navy standard: If you are shown a rifle, and can recognize it AS a rifle, you're qualified as a Marksman. If you can tell (without instruction) which end the bullet comes out, you're qualified as a Sharpshooter. If you can then load the rifle without an AD, you qualify as an Expert. Sorry, but I just had to bust on 'em one time.[;)]
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:02:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zardoz: The Navy standard: If you are shown a rifle, and can recognize it AS a rifle, you're qualified as a Marksman. If you can tell (without instruction) which end the bullet comes out, you're qualified as a Sharpshooter. If you can then load the rifle without an AD, you qualify as an Expert. Sorry, but I just had to bust on 'em one time.[;)]
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And you ain't kiddin. I instructed a Navy Reserve unit on a M9 FAM-Fire. Two of them shot the floor and one the ceiling (indoor range). We gave up teaching them how to hit paper and just concentrated on making sure they didn't shoot eachother. You Navy guys are good to go, but now I know why Marines carry the weapons on ships! [;)]
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:09:50 PM EDT
In the USAF, we had a correspondence course.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:28:24 PM EDT
i got a buddy in the AF reserve. he shot expert and got a ribbon for it WTF? hahaha.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:32:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zardoz: The Navy standard: If you are shown a rifle, and can recognize it AS a rifle, you're qualified as a Marksman. If you can tell (without instruction) which end the bullet comes out, you're qualified as a Sharpshooter. If you can then load the rifle without an AD, you qualify as an Expert. Sorry, but I just had to bust on 'em one time.[;)]
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Sadly, that's not too far from the truth. The average sailor is not required to qualify with any weapons. The routine they do in boot camp is not a "qualification" so much as it is a "familiarization". Nowadays they only fire something like 50 total handgun rounds in boot camp. I don't even think they're anymore scored but the rules change so often I can't be sure. Any armed shipboard watchstanders are required to be qualified annually. Shore Patrol (MP's) are required to qualify more frequently and with a more varied course of fire. The exact requirements can be found at: http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/Directives/3591_1c.pdf Sailors seldom qualify with rifles (though this is changing) and it is usually the M-14. Most qualifications are on 9 mm and shotgun. The watchstander qualifications are a pass/fail item and no awards/ribbons/medals are given for the different levels. Sometimes sailors will be given the chance (though not often enough) to qualify for a sharpshooter/marksman/expert designation. Different course of fire than the security qualification, however. The shameful bottom line is that Sailors are generally very poor, and often unsafe, users of small arms. The only groups that get regular training are security forces, Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) teams, SEAL teams, shipboard Visit-Board-Search-Seizure (VBSS) teams, Special Warfare Combatant Craft (SWCC) Crewman, and, to a lesser extent, Seabees. Overall these groups are a very small portion (<1%) of the Navy. But, hey, if you can't solve the problem with 5 inch guns, tomahawks, F-18's, 20MM cannons, and an emarked MEU then a bunch of fumble triggered sailors ain't gonna make the difference!
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:59:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DvlDog: i got a buddy in the AF reserve. he shot expert and got a ribbon for it WTF? hahaha.
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Hell yeah. I may not be the perfect candidate for honor grad., but I sure as hell am looking forward to getting a ribbon for all the friggin thousands of rounds (and hundreds of $$) I've spent in my AR15. To some, practice makes perfect. To me, it means I get to look cool... for all of 24 hours and graduation [8D]
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:46:31 AM EDT
Wow, I had no idea that the Marines had all the weapons on board Navy ships. They don't. I guess I was dreamimg when I qualified for the Mossberg 590, M14, M16 and the M9. I really must have been dreaming when I outshot the Air Wing Marines with the M14 and the M9. Too bad the Guys in Black won't let anyone shoot their MP-5's or their M4's. Things are changing (on board aircraft carriers anyways), firearms handling and fam fires are becoming more frequent, quals for all hands are inbound.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 2:07:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zardoz: The Navy standard: If you are shown a rifle, and can recognize it AS a rifle, you're qualified as a Marksman. If you can tell (without instruction) which end the bullet comes out, you're qualified as a Sharpshooter. If you can then load the rifle without an AD, you qualify as an Expert. Sorry, but I just had to bust on 'em one time.[;)]
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I always thought that if you could fire off the fantail (i.e., back of the ship) and hit the ocean, you were qualified. [:D]
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:49:39 PM EDT
bedlam...we tend to call "bouncing bullets" ricochets. While I 'm sure some of these ricochets do continue on into the target, I've also seen enough situations where the bullet would have to do some weird shit to hit. Yesterday saw it happen in a foot and a half of snow,doesn't take anything to knock them targets over. When we go to qual, it is usually a "stay until everyone shoots expert" kinda deal. Makes for long days. We once had a guy who used several HUNDRED rounds just to zero. He was on the line for around five hours chasing groups all over the target. Another trick is to get low enough on the prone "unsupported" to use the mag as a monopod. Sure you ain't suppose to...But no one really cares and it helps scores a bit. Besides, you will fight as you train, right? Might as well practice getting as low as possible.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:53:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 6:55:14 PM EDT by Schnert]
In order to be awarded the coveted Air Force Supreme Strategic Air Command Congressional Medal of Marksmanship First Class Ribbon the individual is only required to know which end of the weapon is to pointed at the enemy (oh sorry... aggressor).
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