North Las Vegas SWAT Attacks Wrong Family - Does not fix door. - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - North Las Vegas SWAT Attacks Wrong Family - Does not fix door. (Page 2 of 5)

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:13:46 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
that's a fair position, as long as you're willing to deal with the consequent problems of underenforcement due to LE being more afraid of incurring liability than enforcing a law.

I'm COMPLETELY ok with this.

100% OK.

So, by that rationale, you're ok with the murders of those soldiers at Ft. Hood, right?

pato

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:14:26 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Some people here think it's perfectly fine to have police equiped like the .mil. I got hammered a few weeks ago for asking why swat teams in Louisiana were wearing ACU's while shooting rodents from the bed of a pickup truck.

Police at no time should be wearing current federal military uniforms( there are plenty of other patterns available that would meet their needs), they havent earned the right to wear them.......

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:18:17 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Some people here think it's perfectly fine to have police equiped like the .mil. I got hammered a few weeks ago for asking why swat teams in Louisiana were wearing ACU's while shooting rodents from the bed of a pickup truck.

Police at no time should be wearing current federal mlitary uniforms( there are plenty of other patterns available that would meet their needs), they havent earned the right to wear them.......

That's what I said and got called out as a cop basher and asked how many .mil branches I was pretending to be(by someone who did not serve at all). Just one, 11B2P US Army 2003-2009.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:20:41 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mistakes happen, as a homeowner, taxpayer, and citizen, I can accept this.

I don't accept mistakes when lives are on the line.

Keep the mediocrity in your yard.

Really? What do you do for a living, and have you ever made a mistake?

Currently, an industrial electrician.

Currently, I'm the Foreman for the QA/QC/Commissioning Dept.

Currently, gathering my transcripts to apply to the Physicians Asst Program here in town.

Currently, retired from 22 years with the mil; 20 years active duty, then 2 years contractual.

Yes, I have made mistakes. But I catch them before any harm is done.

I have never made one single medication error, misdiagnosis, etc. in those 22 years.

If you think it's OK to make a mistake and blow and go on the wrong house, then I can't help you.

Your pseudo-condescending tone make me believe that's the case.

What do you do for a living, and how many mistakes are acceptable to you in your profession?

He's a physician, big guy.
Now, how does an industrial electrician get in the position of mkaing medication errors?

Plus, if you've been in medicine long enough––you make mistakes. period, end of story. Whether you catch them or not or how big the mistake is––is another story, but if you claim to have been in the medical field and to have never made a mistake––you are either a stone cold newbie or you are lying.

pato

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:22:20 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Certain applications? Yes, I'm good with explosive breaches.

Cops had belt feds in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Cops had armored vehicles in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Define attach helos?

So far except for helos cops have already had those items.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:24:17 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Certain applications? Yes, I'm good with explosive breaches.

Cops had belt feds in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Cops had armored vehicles in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Define attach helos? Any rotorywing aircraft with weapons mounted(MGs or Rockets)...

So far except for helos cops have already had those items.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:24:59 PM EDT

[#7]

I don't understand why they had to enter the home in the first place. If it was SWAT then they should have had enough team members to secure the outside of the home without entering. After the outside is secured and no one can leave without being seen or arrested, then try making contact with someone inside. If they would have done this, the mistake wouldn't have happened.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:25:23 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mistakes happen, as a homeowner, taxpayer, and citizen, I can accept this.

I don't accept mistakes when lives are on the line.

Keep the mediocrity in your yard.

Really? What do you do for a living, and have you ever made a mistake?

Currently, an industrial electrician.

Currently, I'm the Foreman for the QA/QC/Commissioning Dept.

Currently, gathering my transcripts to apply to the Physicians Asst Program here in town.

Currently, retired from 22 years with the mil; 20 years active duty, then 2 years contractual.

Yes, I have made mistakes. But I catch them before any harm is done.

I have never made one single medication error, misdiagnosis, etc. in those 22 years.

If you think it's OK to make a mistake and blow and go on the wrong house, then I can't help you.

Your pseudo-condescending tone make me believe that's the case.

What do you do for a living, and how many mistakes are acceptable to you in your profession?

He's a physician, big guy.
Now, how does an industrial electrician get in the position of mkaing medication errors?

Plus, if you've been in medicine long enough––you make mistakes. period, end of story. Whether you catch them or not or how big the mistake is––is another story, but if you claim to have been in the medical field and to have never made a mistake––you are either a stone cold newbie or you are lying.

pato

22 yrs medical experience.

Congrats - you just called me a lair.

My original NREMT-P number - you know, before the re-organization - began with a 5. That's circa 1980.

One of the 3 founding members of the National Association of Military EMTs and Paramedics.

Just more lies, of course.

So that's all you get.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:26:25 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Some people here think it's perfectly fine to have police equiped like the .mil. I got hammered a few weeks ago for asking why swat teams in Louisiana were wearing ACU's while shooting rodents from the bed of a pickup truck.

What some people fail to realize is since roman times the beginning of actual policing, the police and military shared the same arms and clothing, nothing new. Sheriff Taylor and Barney wore the military uniform of the day.

ACU's suck btw.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:27:38 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
UMMMMM..... that is not the whole story. It doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps, you missed the dozens of similar cases around the country where certain SWAT teams feel that violating innocent, uninvolved citizen's rights is a no big deal.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:29:41 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Really? What do you do for a living, and have you ever made a mistake?

What? like violating multiple innocent citizen's civil rights, frightening children with death, causing property damage, and then walking away with impunity?

Then no.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:31:00 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Certain applications? Yes, I'm good with explosive breaches.

Cops had belt feds in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Cops had armored vehicles in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Define attach helos? Any rotorywing aircraft with weapons mounted(MGs or Rockets)...

So far except for helos cops have already had those items.

Yeah, I'm good with it.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:35:37 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Some people here think it's perfectly fine to have police equiped like the .mil. I got hammered a few weeks ago for asking why swat teams in Louisiana were wearing ACU's while shooting rodents from the bed of a pickup truck.

What some people fail to realize is since roman times the beginning of actual policing, the police and military shared the same arms and clothing, nothing new. Sheriff Taylor and Barney wore the military uniform of the day.

ACU's suck btw.

They do two entirely different jobs. A peace officer is not a soldier and vice versa. I agree that ACU's are an abomination, If camo is neccessary for killing rodents, why ACU was my question on that post.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:36:21 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Currently, an industrial electrician.

Currently, I'm the Foreman for the QA/QC/Commissioning Dept.

Currently, gathering my transcripts to apply to the Physicians Asst Program here in town.

Currently, retired from 22 years with the mil; 20 years active duty, then 2 years contractual.

Yes, I have made mistakes. But I catch them before any harm is done.

I have never made one single medication error, misdiagnosis, etc. in those 22 years.

If you think it's OK to make a mistake and blow and go on the wrong house, then I can't help you.

Your pseudo-condescending tone make me believe that's the case.

What do you do for a living, and how many mistakes are acceptable to you in your profession?

So you make mistakes... and then correct them? Or do you not make mistakes at all?

If you're claiming the latter... well... let's just say that runs counter to every physician and/or nurse that I've ever known. That's not a slam... but perfection runs counter to human nature, particularly in a time-critical, limited-information, high-pressure environment like mine. I'd be interested to know what kind of clinical environment you inhabit.

I don't know a single ER physician who hasn't made a mistake... and that includes some of the legends in this specialty.

There are two kinds of providers: those who have f*cked up, and those who haven't YET. So you can claim what you want... just don't let your ego shatter into a million pieces when it inevitably happens.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:36:26 PM EDT

[#15]

So the SWAT team raided the wrong house. They went to the house that was not the one on the warrant.
Broke down the door while armed and dragged the occupants out at what I am assuming is at gun point.

In my opinion the occupants of the house should press charges against the officers for:

Breaking and entering
Property damage
assult and battery
tresspassing
kidnapping
and for brandsing weapons with no cause for doing so.

And the all the cops that were involved in this should be tested to make sure that they understand how to read and count on at least a 3rd grade level

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:37:48 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
that's a fair position, as long as you're willing to deal with the consequent problems of underenforcement due to LE being more afraid of incurring liability than enforcing a law.

I'm COMPLETELY ok with this.

100% OK.

So, by that rationale, you're ok with the murders of those soldiers at Ft. Hood, right?

i'm pretty sure that you and i are on the same page on this, but let's rephrase your question to kstanton just to eliminate any possible ambiguities (since the question as phrased might be taken as "do you mind those deaths?"). how about something like this:

"so you are saying that you would prefer the reduced enforcement of laws that would accompany strict personal liability, and that the victims of crimes resulting from this are acceptable casualties. right?"

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:41:21 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Currently, an industrial electrician.

Currently, I'm the Foreman for the QA/QC/Commissioning Dept.

Currently, gathering my transcripts to apply to the Physicians Asst Program here in town.

Currently, retired from 22 years with the mil; 20 years active duty, then 2 years contractual.

Yes, I have made mistakes. But I catch them before any harm is done.

I have never made one single medication error, misdiagnosis, etc. in those 22 years.

If you think it's OK to make a mistake and blow and go on the wrong house, then I can't help you.

Your pseudo-condescending tone make me believe that's the case.

What do you do for a living, and how many mistakes are acceptable to you in your profession?

So you make mistakes... and then correct them? Or do you not make mistakes at all?

If you're claiming the latter... well... let's just say that runs counter to every physician and/or nurse that I've ever known. That's not a slam... but perfection runs counter to human nature, particularly in a time-critical, limited-information, high-pressure environment like mine. I'd be interested to know what kind of clinical environment you inhabit.

I don't know a single ER physician who hasn't made a mistake... and that includes some of the legends in this specialty.

There are two kinds of providers: those who have f*cked up, and those who haven't YET. So you can claim what you want... just don't let your ego shatter into a million pieces when it inevitably happens.

I'll agree, my paragraph structure sucked.

Again - yeah in my current job I've made a mistake - but caught it before we turned something on, caught the calculation error prior to ordering material, etc.

In the med field, I have never made an error. I strive for perfection.

I've responded to your inquiries, now it's your turn.

I'll ask again: What do you do for a living, and how many mistakes are acceptable to you in your profession?

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:41:44 PM EDT

[#18]

Seriously, it is a good question - why did they NOT just fix it, apologize, and make it right immediately? I'd imagine a policy of doing that would be cheaper and much better public relations.

Genius at work.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:42:31 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Certain applications? Yes, I'm good with explosive breaches.

Cops had belt feds in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Cops had armored vehicles in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Define attach helos? Any rotorywing aircraft with weapons mounted(MGs or Rockets)...

So far except for helos cops have already had those items.

Yeah, I'm good with it.

My surprised face...Im sure your ok with 81/120mm mortars and A10s in the PD inventory as well...

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:43:04 PM EDT

[#20]

All the cops who cant make it to Las Vegas Metro Police Dept head over to the other neighboring agencies- Henderson, North Las Vegas, Boulder City etc.. LVMPD is the largest agency in the valley being the combined agency of a Sheriffs Dept and a Police Dept. They dont make these kinds of mistakes with their SWAT teams.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:43:58 PM EDT

[#21]

do they give the officers drug tests when this sorta thing happens?

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:45:13 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

What some people fail to realize is since roman times the beginning of actual policing, the police and military shared the same arms and clothing, nothing new. Sheriff Taylor and Barney wore the military uniform of the day.

ACU's suck btw.

They do two entirely different jobs. A peace officer is not a soldier and vice versa. I agree that ACU's are an abomination, If camo is neccessary for killing rodents, why ACU was my question on that post.

Really? I was looking at a thread the other day showing .mil guys getting OC'd, flex cuffing and training using ASP batons. Why are military guys training to be cops? (rhetorical question btw

)

Do cothes really define the man? So the military guys in Afgan wearing multicam are trying to be cops? Cops took on multi cam first. Except for the airsofters.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:48:28 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
So the SWAT team raided the wrong house. They went to the house that was not the one on the warrant.
Broke down the door while armed and dragged the occupants out at what I am assuming is at gun point.

In my opinion the occupants of the house should press charges against the officers for:

Breaking and entering
Property damage
assult and battery
tresspassing
kidnapping
and for brandsing weapons with no cause for doing so.

And the all the cops that were involved in this should be tested to make sure that they understand how to read and count on at least a 3rd grade level

You got all of that out of a second grade level 10 sentence article?

It did not define wrong house. Wrong house on the warrant? Wrong house as in the bad guys no longer there? Wrong house, Elm St vs Elm Rd.? Etc........

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:50:11 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Certain applications? Yes, I'm good with explosive breaches.

Cops had belt feds in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Cops had armored vehicles in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Define attach helos? Any rotorywing aircraft with weapons mounted(MGs or Rockets)...

So far except for helos cops have already had those items.

Yeah, I'm good with it.

My surprised face...Im sure your ok with 81/120mm mortars and A10s in the PD inventory as well...

Can't really see mortars but are we referring to A10's as in Warthogs?

ETA: Actually I could see mortars. Help along the border dealing with drug runners and such.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:52:58 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

I'll agree, my paragraph structure sucked.

Again - yeah in my current job I've made a mistake - but caught it before we turned something on, caught the calculation error prior to ordering material, etc.

In the med field, I have never made an error. I strive for perfection.

I've responded to your inquiries, now it's your turn.

I'll ask again: What do you do for a living, and how many mistakes are acceptable to you in your profession?

I already answered, but I'll do so again explicitly... and my profession has a zero-tolerance for mistakes... just ask the trial bar.

I'm an ER physician, former .mil physician, and former tactical medic (CONTOMS-trained from the old days)... former academic, now strictly clinical. Residency-trained, and board-certified. I'm also a published author in my area of clinical interest.

I likewise strive for perfection... but it doesn't happen. I make my very best effort... but nobody is superman, and nobody can be two places at once. No matter how sh*t-hot you are, circumstances, fatigue, misinformation, system problems, errors on the part of others, and your own errors will eventually bring you to a state where you've f*cked up. At that point all you can do is pray to Almighty God that you haven't seriously injured or killed anyone. When mistakes happen, all you can do is be a man about it: own it, apologize, and make it right as best you can.

Everybody makes mistakes. It is my opinion that the manner in which you deal with those mistakes is much more telling than whether you made one or not.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:54:30 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
If a group of armed home invaders busted down your door looking for a cache of drugs they believed to be in your home, then realized they had the wrong house and apologized for it, does that make it ok?

Let's assume they dragged you and your wife and children out of bed half clothed and made you sit outside while they figured out that the drugs they wanted to steal were a few houses down the street. When they realize their mistake, they apologize and nobody is really physically harmed except for a scratch here and there from being dragged out of bed.

Should they be forgiven, or go to jail for invading your home?

If it's a bonafide case of "wrong house," then somebody needs to be fired at the very least. This is the type of thing where mistakes cannot be tolerated and the police must go to the ends of the earth to avoid them. If you can't positively ID a dwelling for a hit, then you investigate it further. If there's any question about the dwelling being correct, you investigate it further. Only when multiple people are in agreement after exhaustive prep work that "this" structure is indeed the one that is to be targeted, only then do the dogs get unleashed.

When that doesn't happen and an innocent party ends up looking down the barrel of a gun his taxes have paid for...heads need to roll.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:55:25 PM EDT

[#27]

Been expecting something like this to happen to my house for a while in the hood I live in but nothing yet.

T

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:56:39 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Nothing will change until the officers involved are held personally responsible.

Nothing like liability to get authorities to start thinking about what they are doing.

As of now, the popo could care less.

Taxpayers will pay any judgment.

100% agree.

Police need to be held to the exact same standards as those they are
sworn to protect. Fuck up, and pay.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:57:27 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Cops are using explosive charges to breach, WTF, is this Iraq or something??

Been using them for years, cops taught the military.

If this was a real wrong house raid, then a carpenter should have been there the next morning and a PD car sitting in the front yard till it was repaired.

You break it, you own it, you fix it.

And your ok with this?
MachineGuns(M240B, M2s)
Armor personnel carriers
Attack helos
When is enough, enough...

Certain applications? Yes, I'm good with explosive breaches.

Cops had belt feds in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Cops had armored vehicles in the early 1900's. Good with it.

Define attach helos? Any rotorywing aircraft with weapons mounted(MGs or Rockets)...

So far except for helos cops have already had those items.

Yeah, I'm good with it.

My surprised face...Im sure your ok with 81/120mm mortars and A10s in the PD inventory as well...

I am gonna get Bama's back on this one....Yes, cops should be able to have the same gear .mil uses.....I will even go further and say that if a law abiding citizen want it and can afford it at the same prices the .mil / cops pay then Joe Citizen should be able to have it.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:58:09 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If a group of armed home invaders busted down your door looking for a cache of drugs they believed to be in your home, then realized they had the wrong house and apologized for it, does that make it ok?

Let's assume they dragged you and your wife and children out of bed half clothed and made you sit outside while they figured out that the drugs they wanted to steal were a few houses down the street. When they realize their mistake, they apologize and nobody is really physically harmed except for a scratch here and there from being dragged out of bed.

Should they be forgiven, or go to jail for invading your home?

If it's a bonafide case of "wrong house," then somebody needs to be fired at the very least. This is the type of thing where mistakes cannot be tolerated and the police must go to the ends of the earth to avoid them. If you can't positively ID a dwelling for a hit, then you investigate it further. If there's any question about the dwelling being correct, you investigate it further. Only when multiple people are in agreement after exhaustive prep work that "this" structure is indeed the one that is to be targeted, only then do the dogs get unleashed.

When that doesn't happen and an innocent party ends up looking down the barrel of a gun his taxes have paid for...heads need to roll.

IMO, there is no excuse for a real wrong house raid.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:00:40 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nothing will change until the officers involved are held personally responsible.

Nothing like liability to get authorities to start thinking about what they are doing.

As of now, the popo could care less.

Taxpayers will pay any judgment.

100% agree.

Police need to be held to the exact same standards as those they are
sworn to protect. Fuck up, and pay.

The problem with doing away with QI is if I stop a guy who matches 100% description of an suspected armed robber, rapist or murder and it turns out not to be him, he can then sue me. You will basically shut down LE.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:01:13 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If a group of armed home invaders busted down your door looking for a cache of drugs they believed to be in your home, then realized they had the wrong house and apologized for it, does that make it ok?

Let's assume they dragged you and your wife and children out of bed half clothed and made you sit outside while they figured out that the drugs they wanted to steal were a few houses down the street. When they realize their mistake, they apologize and nobody is really physically harmed except for a scratch here and there from being dragged out of bed.

Should they be forgiven, or go to jail for invading your home?

If it's a bonafide case of "wrong house," then somebody needs to be fired at the very least. This is the type of thing where mistakes cannot be tolerated and the police must go to the ends of the earth to avoid them. If you can't positively ID a dwelling for a hit, then you investigate it further. If there's any question about the dwelling being correct, you investigate it further. Only when multiple people are in agreement after exhaustive prep work that "this" structure is indeed the one that is to be targeted, only then do the dogs get unleashed.

When that doesn't happen and an innocent party ends up looking down the barrel of a gun his taxes have paid for...heads need to roll.

IMO, there is no excuse for a real wrong house raid.

It should never happen... and if it does, the VERY LEAST the person involved should expect is to have their door replaced, and an apology. To not even do that is just a**holish on the part of the department. Perhaps this expensive reminder will make them tighten it up a bit.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:02:04 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

What some people fail to realize is since roman times the beginning of actual policing, the police and military shared the same arms and clothing, nothing new. Sheriff Taylor and Barney wore the military uniform of the day.

ACU's suck btw.

They do two entirely different jobs. A peace officer is not a soldier and vice versa. I agree that ACU's are an abomination, If camo is neccessary for killing rodents, why ACU was my question on that post.

Really? I was looking at a thread the other day showing .mil guys getting OC'd, flex cuffing and training using ASP batons. Why are military guys training to be cops? (rhetorical question btw

)

Do cothes really define the man? So the military guys in Afgan wearing multicam are trying to be cops? Cops took on multi cam first. Except for the airsofters.

Which isn't their job. I've noticed in the last couple years before I got out that pretty much all training has been subverted from standard army doctrine, i.e. battle drills, training strictly for force on force engagements, etc. Did you not notice the problems in Iraq/Afghanistan when you put soldiers who were trained on killing people, and turning them into police officers operating against insurgents in populated areas? Because we can't kill everybody in sight anymore, since the public has a weak stomach for collateral damage, is why "soldiers are training to be cops.". Iraq is drawing down, Afghan is more of a conventional war in rural areas, Soldiers will be going back to training for conventional warfare, and not acting like MP's.

Multicam is effective, 1000% more effective than ACU. They are designed as COMBAT uniforms, resembling the current design of ACU. Why do LEO's need them? Are we going to start seeing Swat teams with faces painted in the wood line, setting up an ambush? NO. It's not necessary is all I'm saying. In urban environments (where SWAT operates) it's more for "tacticool" points than anything else.

To each his own, I guess.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:05:37 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I'll agree, my paragraph structure sucked.

Again - yeah in my current job I've made a mistake - but caught it before we turned something on, caught the calculation error prior to ordering material, etc.

In the med field, I have never made an error. I strive for perfection.

I've responded to your inquiries, now it's your turn.

I'll ask again: What do you do for a living, and how many mistakes are acceptable to you in your profession?

I already answered, but I'll do so again explicitly... and my profession has a zero-tolerance for mistakes... just ask the trial bar.

I'm an ER physician, former .mil physician, and former tactical medic (CONTOMS-trained from the old days)... former academic, now strictly clinical. Residency-trained, and board-certified. I'm also a published author in my area of clinical interest.

I likewise strive for perfection... but it doesn't happen. I make my very best effort... but nobody is superman, and nobody can be two places at once. No matter how sh*t-hot you are, circumstances, fatigue, misinformation, system problems, errors on the part of others, and your own errors will eventually bring you to a state where you've f*cked up. At that point all you can do is pray to Almighty God that you haven't seriously injured or killed anyone. When mistakes happen, all you can do is be a man about it: own it, apologize, and make it right as best you can.

Everybody makes mistakes. It is my opinion that the manner in which you deal with those mistakes is much more telling than whether you made one or not.

Well, I appreciate the post.

What I don't appreciate is the subtle innuendo regarding my ability to admit mistakes.

And I most certainly don't appreciate being called a liar by pato.

I'm finished here.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:08:22 PM EDT

[#35]

So men in black masks broke into your house in the middle of the night,you have a wife and 3 children to protect,and you're still alive and speaking with your attorney about civil liability?STFU.When I was a kid only the bad guys wore ski masks.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:09:15 PM EDT

[#36]

Going to the wrong place should be a very serious no no.
If the home owner pulls out his self protection home gun, he is one dead guy.
Not to mention any family dogs living there too...

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:09:30 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Really? I was looking at a thread the other day showing .mil guys getting OC'd, flex cuffing and training using ASP batons. Why are military guys training to be cops? (rhetorical question btw

)

Do cothes really define the man? So the military guys in Afgan wearing multicam are trying to be cops? Cops took on multi cam first. Except for the airsofters.

Which isn't their job. I've noticed in the last couple years before I got out that pretty much all training has been subverted from standard army doctrine, i.e. battle drills, training strictly for force on force engagements, etc. Did you not notice the problems in Iraq/Afghanistan when you put soldiers who were trained on killing people, and turning them into police officers operating against insurgents in populated areas? Because we can't kill everybody in sight anymore, since the public has a weak stomach for collateral damage, is why "soldiers are training to be cops.". Iraq is drawing down, Afghan is more of a conventional war in rural areas, Soldiers will be going back to training for conventional warfare, and not acting like MP's.

Multicam is effective, 1000% more effective than ACU. They are designed as COMBAT uniforms, resembling the current design of ACU. Why do LEO's need them? Are we going to start seeing Swat teams with faces painted in the wood line, setting up an ambush? NO. It's not necessary is all I'm saying. In urban environments (where SWAT operates) it's more for "tacticool" points than anything else.

To each his own, I guess.

Cops adopted multicam before .mil. So you guys can't use it.

It has it's place depending on the situation, the same with OD or woodland patterns. Multicam looks nothing like ACU. Because LEO's operate in a variety of enviornments. I have sat in the woodline for days observing a target for a raid. Yes we even painted our faces.

BTW, solid black sucks also.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:12:39 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
So men in black masks broke into your house in the middle of the night,you have a wife and 3 children to protect,and you're still alive and speaking with your attorney about civil liability?STFU.When I was a kid only the bad guys wore ski masks.

I missed the ski mask part in the article.

The Lone Ranger wore a mask.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:13:05 PM EDT

[#39]

I'm starting to become "desensitized" to this stuff, just like another segment of our society.

GM

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:13:33 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Going to the wrong place should be a very serious no no.
If the home owner pulls out his self protection home gun, he is one dead guy.

Not necessarily. I can think of at least two instances where a heavily armed SWAT team was forced to retreat due to a single occupant firing a weapon.

One was the Hmong father and the other was the perp with an AK clone.

I'm sure there are more examples, but those are two that came to mind.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:26:07 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Some people here think it's perfectly fine to have police equiped like the .mil.

I'm one of those.

I want LEOs to have the best tng and equipt available.

But my thoughts on responsibility run amuck of the legal system.

I agree. It's be nice to do some sort of "double-check" to make sure you're not about to demolish an innocent man's front door and drag him and his family out of the house in the wee hours.
Some additional responsibility would be great.

But I say let the cops have everything they want. Who gives a shit. Just use it responsibly.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:33:20 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nothing will change until the officers involved are held personally responsible.

Nothing like liability to get authorities to start thinking about what they are doing.

As of now, the popo could care less.

Taxpayers will pay any judgment.

Agree - officers SHOULD be personally liable. Really think you are fighting the good fight, doing it responsibly, and doing it morally? Put your wallet where your mouth is.

which officers? the SWAT guys who made the raid, or the intel guys who told them where to go?

Most of the time when these things happen, they read the address wrong and go to Oak St instead of Oak Dr. (Or Oak St instead of 3rd Ave.) Or 152 North instead of 152 South.
They really do need to get the address correct, perhaps grid coordinates on a GPS?

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:36:34 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Well, I appreciate the post.

What I don't appreciate is the subtle innuendo regarding my ability to admit mistakes.

And I most certainly don't appreciate being called a liar by pato.

I'm finished here.

Fair enough. I thought I detected an "I don't make mistakes" vibe... so my mistake

Your statement that "I don't accept mistakes when lives are on the line," is very admirable sentiment... and the perfectionist streak implied by your conviction will make you compulsive about checking and double-checking your work. These are good things.

But be careful that you don't hang too much of yourself on the peg of that assumed perfection... because if you do, you're setting yourself up... and it's a hard fall to take. Ask me how I know

Also be careful in expecting that same perfection from your co-workers, because when they don't measure up...

All I'm saying is be careful.

ETA: didn't mean to lecture at ya.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:38:41 PM EDT

[#44]

These sort of things make me wonder if I should make my house a much harder target. I would certainly end up with a dead dog.

As for those comparing this to an ER fuck up there is a huge difference. You walk into the ER fucked up and the doc has to make a decision based on his best judgement at that second. Usually it works out, but not always.

The SWAT team is choosing to go to the house, and has the time to study their choices and ensure accuracy.

There is no excuse to fuck up like this at your job, and yes I am a public servant that could potentially do something stupid and end up where I should be sued.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:39:18 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nothing will change until the officers involved are held personally responsible.

Nothing like liability to get authorities to start thinking about what they are doing.

As of now, the popo could care less.

Taxpayers will pay any judgment.

Agree - officers SHOULD be personally liable. Really think you are fighting the good fight, doing it responsibly, and doing it morally? Put your wallet where your mouth is.

which officers? the SWAT guys who made the raid, or the intel guys who told them where to go?

Most of the time when these things happen, they read the address wrong and go to Oak St instead of Oak Dr. (Or Oak St instead of 3rd Ave.) Or 152 North instead of 152 South.
They really do need to get the address correct, perhaps grid coordinates on a GPS?

Whoever did the investigation/write up for the warrant goes WITH the team. Not a handoff.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:43:46 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nothing will change until the officers involved are held personally responsible.

Nothing like liability to get authorities to start thinking about what they are doing.

As of now, the popo could care less.

Taxpayers will pay any judgment.

Agree - officers SHOULD be personally liable. Really think you are fighting the good fight, doing it responsibly, and doing it morally? Put your wallet where your mouth is.

which officers? the SWAT guys who made the raid, or the intel guys who told them where to go?

Most of the time when these things happen, they read the address wrong and go to Oak St instead of Oak Dr. (Or Oak St instead of 3rd Ave.) Or 152 North instead of 152 South.
They really do need to get the address correct, perhaps grid coordinates on a GPS?

Whoever did the investigation/write up for the warrant goes WITH the team. Not a handoff.

Maybe they skipped that day of class.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:48:55 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
These sort of things make me wonder if I should make my house a much harder target. I would certainly end up with a dead dog.

As for those comparing this to an ER fuck up there is a huge difference. You walk into the ER fucked up and the doc has to make a decision based on his best judgement at that second. Usually it works out, but not always.

The SWAT team is choosing to go to the house, and has the time to study their choices and ensure accuracy.

There is no excuse to fuck up like this at your job, and yes I am a public servant that could potentially do something stupid and end up where I should be sued.

Not all the time. Here's the warrant, person x is at the location, we roll right fucking now.

Posted: 11/25/2009 5:55:15 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
These sort of things make me wonder if I should make my house a much harder target. I would certainly end up with a dead dog.

As for those comparing this to an ER fuck up there is a huge difference. You walk into the ER fucked up and the doc has to make a decision based on his best judgement at that second. Usually it works out, but not always.

The SWAT team is choosing to go to the house, and has the time to study their choices and ensure accuracy.

There is no excuse to fuck up like this at your job, and yes I am a public servant that could potentially do something stupid and end up where I should be sued.

Not all the time. Here's the warrant, person x is at the location, we roll right fucking now.

Yes, but this is not the case of you pull someone over and they are fishing in their pocket and pull out something that looks like a gun and you pull the trigger only to find out they were deaf and had a cell phone. This is not a case where someone is being held hostage and you slip and shoot the hostage.

My point is, if you go blow a door in on some people as they are sleeping it is not a fucking emergency and lack of time and ability to plan. You chose to go and you fucked up. It does not matter if you got the call 5 seconds ago, it was not an emergency. Piss poor planning from the department is not a justification for a fuck up.

Posted: 11/25/2009 6:01:41 PM EDT

[#49]

LEO should be able to do their jobs without constant fear of legal action for acting correctly in their duties.

That said, if these types of occurrences are found to be the result of negligence on the part of a specific officer, that officer should lose any qualified immunity from civil liability.

Immunity from acting on a typo or a call-in, or witness report is one thing.

Immunity from negligence is bullshit.

Find me a profession where overt negligence is not punished.

Posted: 11/25/2009 6:05:31 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
that's a fair position, as long as you're willing to deal with the consequent problems of underenforcement due to LE being more afraid of incurring liability than enforcing a law.

I'm COMPLETELY ok with this.

100% OK.

I rarely post "+1", but this is one of those occasions where the quoted poster nailed it. So, +1.

Yup, I'm cool with that.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - North Las Vegas SWAT Attacks Wrong Family - Does not fix door. (Page 2 of 5)

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