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Posted: 2/24/2002 1:26:39 PM EDT
Sheriff's Deputy Kills Fort Bragg Soldier During Training Exercise POSTED: 10:56 a.m. EST February 24, 2002 ROBBINS, NC -- Authorities are investigating a shooting involving a Moore County sheriff's deputy that left one Fort Bragg solider dead and another in serious condition. The shooting is being investigated by the State Bureau of Investigation, with the help of the Army Criminal Investigation Division, the sheriff's department and the Army Special Operations Command. The names of the soldiers were not released. Deputy Sheriff Randall Butler has been placed on administrative leave with pay. The soldiers were taking part in a role-playing exercise of the Special Forces Qualification Course called "Robin Sage." They were in a vehicle that had been pulled over by Butler Saturday near Robbins. The soldiers were in a vehicle driven by a civilian who was playing the role of a resident of a fictitious country. The soldiers were carrying weapons, but an Army official says soldiers do not carry live ammunition during the exercise. The sheriff's department would not comment on the incident. It is unclear whether Butler was helping with the training exercise. ********************* They have been doing the qual down there for what? Forty years? "Hey, its SF qual time. I'm gonna shoot the two very thin short hair white guys in that car. They must be crooks" They pay the locals to help out with the training.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 1:44:26 PM EDT
Let's wait for all the facts. IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 1:52:37 PM EDT
Well, you can always look on the bright side. At least the officer went home safely after the shift.....
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 2:29:48 PM EDT
I was involved in 2 Robin Sages when I was at Bragg. Being an MI puke it was kinda cool to do some training with the SF guys. We did trek through some pretty sketchy areas that had some ass backwards country folk. In MI we often worked with civilians, especially with the cutting edge high tech communications equipment. I wonder what the heck happened to get the Sheriff to fire on the troops...
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 2:47:43 PM EDT
Pineland is a dangerous place. $5 says the SF dudes thought the deputy was part of the exercise – and they guessed wrong. Not the first people that the ‘Q’ killed.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 2:55:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Let's wait for all the facts. IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
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Yes...and the reason is, when we fight some other country, the enemy soldiers aren't usually polite enough to stay out of "civilian areas."
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:14:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Well, you can always look on the bright side. At least the officer went home safely after the shift.....
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WITH PAY.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:14:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:21:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By liberty86: Let's wait for all the facts. IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
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Yes...and the reason is, when we fight some other country, the enemy soldiers aren't usually polite enough to stay out of "civilian areas."
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IF that is the reason, then they should stay in their own "towns" on military bases, and recruit civilians or have their own people "role play".
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:24:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Instant_Karma: Pineland is a dangerous place. $5 says the SF dudes thought the deputy was part of the exercise – and they guessed wrong. Not the first people that the ‘Q’ killed.
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Those were our students, and they were shot 10 miles from my house. Very estute, no takers on the bet. That appears to be exactly what happened. Deputy Butler was NOT part of the exercise. As I understand it, the two NCOs were riding with a civilian asset and were pulled over in a "routine traffic stop". They treated the deputy as part of the exercise, and he wasn't. At some point, the deputy alleges that he was afraid that they were going to disarm him, so he shot both of them, killing one and putting the other in the ICU. The surviving soldier's story is different, and will probably be that the deputy overreacted and employed deadly force without cause. Either way, bad show. NC SBI is investigating, along with the Moore County Sherrif's Dept., the Army and the Federal Gov't. The exercise, involving over a thousand people, has been conducted in the same area for 40 years, and the deputy, who has been with the department for seven years, claims he never heard of it. As noted, this unconventional warfare training is the culminating exercise for the SFQC, and involves conducting a guerrilla warfare scenario with axctive participation within the community. Numerous locals, including law enforcement officers play roles in the training, which is of necessity, realistic. liberty86:
IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
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You are barking up the wrong tree. Believe it or not, there is not a conspiracy behind every military or governmental act. This exercise has been run here for 40 years, and the locals are a very big part of it. As a matter of fact, since the SF students train and organize a guerrilla force, the locals are, by now, experts in all aspects of guerrilla warfare, including operating the auxillary and the underground. It would not be possible to conduct this training without the cooperation of the civilians in the area. You would probably enjoy participating in the training yourself, and would likely learn quite a few things which you would consider of value.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:46:36 PM EDT
SF - thanks for the additional info. I enjoyed the exercise when I participated, it was different than your average FTX. I hope the soldier in ICU has a full recovery...
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:46:43 PM EDT
This PO sounds like a complete moron, how else could he have not known? Lets see what the ICU survivor's story is. I'm in disbelief that he's still being paid.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:51:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By liberty86: Let's wait for all the facts. IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
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Yes...and the reason is, when we fight some other country, the enemy soldiers aren't usually polite enough to stay out of "civilian areas."
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IF that is the reason, then they should stay in their own "towns" on military bases, and recruit civilians or have their own people "role play".
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liberty86: Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You do realize that as an American citizen, the Army that you are speaking of is the same one that GEN Washington led against the British, and paid a terrible price, at least initially for their lack of military skills and readiness? The military trains in civilian areas in order to obtain more realistic training. They can't build a copy of New York, or Tokyo, or Afghanistan every time they want to train. The cost, in your tax dollars, would be prohibitive. Citizens of other nations frequently oppose our training in their country, as well, and for better reasons. The purpose of this training is to provide you, an American citizen, with a well trained, well equipped military to fight and win the nation's wars. Your elected representatives, the President, as Commander in Chief, and the Congress, exercise civilian control and direct the military to accomplish military missions as they decide necessary. Your statement that the military "should stay in their own "towns" on military bases" is not rational. I have heard that the same thing was said of blacks, Irish, etc. during years gone by. "Soldiers and dogs, keep off the grass", eh? That would be racist, or at least elitist snobbery, were it not directed at members of your nation's armed forces. Besides, the people who live on military bases including family members of soldiers, frequently ARE involved in the exercises. Since their loved ones are already putting their lives on the line for you, do you suggest that they should be subjected to additional penalties for keeping your freedoms intact? The fact is that military bases do not contain sufficiently varied terrain and population to conduct the type of training necessary for Special Forces soldiers. We do recruit civilians for this exercise, hundreds of them. As for the statement that they should "have their own people "role play". We do. That is the OPFOR and some of the guerrillas. In summation, the soldiers and members of these communities don't object to the training. It increases their skills prior to going in harm's way to do the bidding of your elected representatives, and to defend your freedom. Why do you object do strongly? Do you specifically oppose the military, or just any form of government at all?
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 4:03:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SF:
Originally Posted By Instant_Karma: Pineland is a dangerous place. $5 says the SF dudes thought the deputy was part of the exercise – and they guessed wrong. Not the first people that the ‘Q’ killed.
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Those were our students, and they were shot 10 miles from my house. Very estute, no takers on the bet. That appears to be exactly what happened. Deputy Butler was NOT part of the exercise. The exercise, involving over a thousand people, has been conducted in the same area for 40 years, and the deputy, who has been with the department for seven years, claims he never heard of it. As noted, this unconventional warfare training is the culminating exercise for the SFQC, and involves conducting a guerrilla warfare scenario with axctive participation within the community. Numerous locals, including law enforcement officers play roles in the training, which is of necessity, realistic. liberty86:
IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
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You are barking up the wrong tree. Believe it or not, there is not a conspiracy behind every military or governmental act. This exercise has been run here for 40 years, and the locals are a very big part of it. As a matter of fact, since the SF students train and organize a guerrilla force, the locals are, by now, experts in all aspects of guerrilla warfare, including operating the auxillary and the underground. It would not be possible to conduct this training without the cooperation of the civilians in the area. You would probably enjoy participating in the training yourself, and would likely learn quite a few things which you would consider of value.
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You are most probably correct in the last sentence of your statement. I have heard in the last few years however, about SF units conducting excersises in civilian areas WITHOUT informing the locals. The reason for this IMHO is to gauge the civilian reaction, (or lack thereof). Friends who have participated in National Guard exercises similar to this have told me that the training scenario involved a local population with RKBA. Is this also true with the exercise in this case? Being as how the Swiss and US are the only ones I know of with RKBA, I guess this means our military is planning "peacekeeping" ops in Switzerland. They CERTAINLY arn't planning a contingency to do it in the US. They'd NEVER do that!!!! (would they?)
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 4:11:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Let's wait for all the facts. IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
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hey liberty86 time to get your read on, slick i suggest you start with tom clancy's book "shadow warriors", it should be on bookstands now and it pretty well outlines the needs for this type of training. c.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 4:38:54 PM EDT
It could have been worse..the military guys could have shoot and killed the LEO or civilians. AT least [i]that[/i] has never happened before in this country...right SF?? Sgtar15 PS...Other than Kent State that is.[;D]
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:06:15 PM EDT
Mellomac: Thanks. I plan to see him and his family (wife and toddler) tomorrow when I visit the hospital. The worst these guys did was to exercise bad judgement about the officer's role in the exercise. liberty86: I am not looking for an argument here, I am just trying to let you, a fellow shooter, get the facts directly from an active duty service member. Try to listen to this with an open mind. Others may find this of interest as well. Military units rarely train in civilian areas. Robin Sage is an exception, and a unique one as I understand it. What I suspect you have heard of, and you may choose to believe it or not is some sort of urban operations training. I will not discuss which units are doing this training, but they are small in number, and I expect that you can deduce who they are. This training is conducted several times a year in urban areas around the US. It is conducted there because there are very few urban areas on bases approximating a modern city area. If we were to build one, at great expense, we would still be training on the same ground every time, a definite liability. To do this training requires two things from the community: Good coordination and absolute secrecy. The coordination is usually with the LE organizations; the city, to locate a secure uninhabited area, usually unoccupied commercial or industrial areas; and a sufficent number of elected representatives to ensure that they have the authorization of the proper personnel to go ahead with the training. All personnel involved are sworn to secrecy and asked to sign non-disclosure statements. The military agrees to repair any and all damage. When the training takes place, there may be a few rehearsals in or near the target area, usually within a day or so of the hit. There will normally be a lot of rotary wing aircraft involvement. They do not want several thousand spectators in the area, both for secrecy and for safety reasons. After the training, the next day's paper is usually full of stories about strange black helicopters, loud explosions, and a lot of weapons firing. The officials who are sworn to secrecy can usually reveal that a training exercise has taken place, but few if any details. They may deny being told. The denials are usually politicians looking to cover their six, 'cause people are angry that they didn't know about it in advance. Others are functionaries or minor elected officials who really didn't get the word, cause they lacked the need to know. Either way, few want to admit that they let the military come in and conduct a training exercise on their turf, because their constituents are not likely to approve of this. The military could care less about gauging the civilians reaction, unless it is so severe that they may not be allowed to train there again. The NG does not conduct this sort of training. What the NG can do is use their helicopters to spot pot plantations, conduct searches, support law enforcement, etc. The active Army is not permitted to do this by act of Posse Comitatus. The guard (as the organized militia) and subject to the State's control can and does support law enforcement. The closest active Army comes is to provide equipment and training to civilian LE. The active military, to my knowledge, has never been involved in any RKBA issues or efforts. Well, since that dustup in 1861-65.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:11:58 PM EDT
(Continued) You may be putting disrelated facts together to reach a desired conclusion. I have no idea why you think that the US and Swiss are the only ones with the right to own firearms, most countries I have been in had some sort of private ownership, it was just restricted to some extent, just like it is here (but, in most cases, worse). We do a fair share of peacekeeping around the world, and I have been on a lot of "nation building", "anti-drug", "peacekeeping" operations for 22 years and never in all honesty, been privy to any discussion about conducting PK or anti-RKBA ops in the US, even in service at some pretty high levels. That is Constitutionally and legally prohibited. I don't know too many military officers, NCOs or soldiers that would undertake ops in the US, against US citizens. If you believe that they would, then you have some serious problems. If you honestly think that the US military is here to collect your hardware, how do you sleep at night?
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:19:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: It could have been worse..the military guys could have shoot and killed the LEO or civilians. AT least [i]that[/i] has never happened before in this country...right SF?? Sgtar15 PS...Other than Kent State that is.[;D]
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Sgtar15: Actually, that couldn't have happened on this exercise, cause the SF students have the weapons, but no live ammo. Sorry, but I missed the inference of the rest of your comment. Again, Kent State was the Ohio Army National Guard, who was operating under the instructions of Governor of Ohio.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:23:58 PM EDT
SF, while I was referring in part, to the scenerios you described, (and which I STILL maintain should be conducted on a military reservation), I am also refering to training conducted on a base in Louisana involving Guard units from various states. These exercises specifically involved a RKBA "peacekeeping" (read pacification) scenerio. Troops involved were Air Force and Army reserves. As for the statement "not everything the govt. does involves a conspiracy". Don't bet your life and liberty on it! BTW, ever hear of "The Resistor"? I DO pray that your soldier recovers, and for the family the casualty leaves behind. I also pray for the deputy who never should have been placed in the position he was in....
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:33:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SF:
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By liberty86: Let's wait for all the facts. IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they.......
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Yes...and the reason is, when we fight some other country, the enemy soldiers aren't usually polite enough to stay out of "civilian areas."
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IF that is the reason, then they should stay in their own "towns" on military bases, and recruit civilians or have their own people "role play".
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liberty86: Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In summation, the soldiers and members of these communities don't object to the training. It increases their skills prior to going in harm's way to do the bidding of your elected representatives, and to defend your freedom. Why do you object do strongly? Do you specifically oppose the military, or just any form of government at all?
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SF, Check my profile....
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:41:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: SF, while I was referring in part, to the scenerios you described, (and which I STILL maintain should be conducted on a military reservation), I am also refering to training conducted on a base in Louisana involving Guard units from various states. These exercises specifically involved a RKBA "peacekeeping" (read pacification) scenerio. Troops involved were Air Force and Army reserves. As for the statement "not everything the govt. does involves a conspiracy". Don't bet your life and liberty on it! BTW, ever hear of "The Resistor"? I DO pray that your soldier recovers, and for the family the casualty leaves behind. I also pray for the deputy who never should have been placed in the position he was in....
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liberty86: Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the best location for urban ops training. Robin Sage couldn't be done on a military installation dure to the requirement for a civilian unconventional warfare operational area. Can't answer to what the Guard might or might not have done. As far as Louisiana goes, it is home to Ft Polk, which is one of the two Army Training Centers in the US (the Joint Readiness Training Center, the other being the NTC at Ft Irwin, CA). The training centers hire a hundred or so civilian role players, at great expense and difficulty. Don't know about you, but I'd rather give the locals UW training and pay less taxes. Having been involved in a few close hold ops, and as an SF officer who is capable of not only applying analysis to information and intel I might receive, but also organizing resistance to any potential threat which emerges, I will bet my life and liberty on my ability to detect a conspiracy. "The Resister" was short lived, but started with reasonable intent. I read it, and enjoyed soem of the features. It degenerated into what some felt was a racist screed, and died. Thank you for your prayers and concern, and I mean that sincerely. We are all Americans here and should always remember that, despite our differences, which also serve to make us great.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:49:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: IF that is the reason, then they should stay in their own "towns" on military bases, and recruit civilians or have their own people "role play".
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Not enough money to make enough realistic "towns." But I know you want to believe it's so the gubmint can come in and declare martial law, yadda yadda yadda...
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:50:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SF: (Continued) You may be putting disrelated facts together to reach a desired conclusion. I have no idea why you think that the US and Swiss are the only ones with the right to own firearms, most countries I have been in had some sort of private ownership, it was just restricted to some extent, just like it is here (but, in most cases, worse). I don't know too many military officers, NCOs or soldiers that would undertake ops in the US, against US citizens. If you believe that they would, then you have some serious problems. If you honestly think that the US military is here to collect your hardware, how do you sleep at night?
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First off, I did not say "own" firearms. I said Right to keep and bear arms". Big difference. US and Swiss are only ones I am aware of (doesn't mean there aren't any, but if there are it's Damn few). What do you think the military will do if faced with the order to disarm civilian "terrorists"???? When given a direct order, or facing the loss of a meal ticket for themselves and their families, and imprisonment, what do you think they'll do?? I am quite sure, in my own mind, given the education system in this country over the last 50 years, what they will do......And no, I DON'T sleep particularly well nights.....
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:53:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: SF, Check my profile....
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liberty86: I applaud your social activism, your Second Amendment defense, and your service to your country. I still wonder why you see a conspiracy behind every tree, but perhaps you have your reasons. You fought for those rights, as now I do. I merely prefer to train hard and realistically rather than to bring extra body bags and stationery for those letters to the Next of Kin.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 5:57:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SF:
Originally Posted By liberty86: SF, while I was referring in part, to the scenerios you described, (and which I STILL maintain should be conducted on a military reservation), I am also refering to training conducted on a base in Louisana involving Guard units from various states. These exercises specifically involved a RKBA "peacekeeping" (read pacification) scenerio. Troops involved were Air Force and Army reserves. As for the statement "not everything the govt. does involves a conspiracy". Don't bet your life and liberty on it! BTW, ever hear of "The Resistor"? I DO pray that your soldier recovers, and for the family the casualty leaves behind. I also pray for the deputy who never should have been placed in the position he was in....
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liberty86: I will bet my life and liberty on my ability to detect a conspiracy. Thank you for your prayers and concern, and I mean that sincerely. We are all Americans here and should always remember that, despite our differences, which also serve to make us great.
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AMEN! I wish you and yours the best SF, and I'm going to leave this one right here......
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 6:09:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: It could have been worse..the military guys could have shoot and killed the LEO or civilians. AT least [i]that[/i] has never happened before in this country...right SF?? Sgtar15 PS...Other than Kent State that is.[;D]
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This has been brought up over and over. First, this happened when I was serving and it was WRONG and every one of the Guard troops should have been prosecuted. The key, however, that these were Guardsmen under the control of the governor of the state of Ohio, they were not US Army troops. This has been pointed out again and again. Why can't people seem to understand that? It's like with the anti's....the facts don't seem to matter. Do you think the Guardsmen in the door with Wallace were US Army troops while they were opposing US Marshals?
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 6:09:42 PM EDT
i am not sure if i even know what our gov is or is not doing, but to have a gov operation going on in civ areas of the backwoods ect with out the poeples knowledge is to envoke a Red Dawn type of response from the civ populace as well as leo...sorry for the soldiers and the leo...
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 6:19:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: What do you think the military will do if faced with the order to disarm civilian "terrorists"???? When given a direct order, or facing the loss of a meal ticket for themselves and their families, and imprisonment, what do you think they'll do?? I am quite sure, in my own mind, given the education system in this country over the last 50 years, what they will do......And no, I DON'T sleep particularly well nights.....
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liberty86: No horse too dead to beat. Let me give you one soldier's perspective, and one that reflects that of most of the soldiers I know. I have taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The requirement to obey the orders of the officers appointed over me is SECONDARY to the Constitutional clause. If ordered to seize firearms from US citizens not in open rebellion or revolt, I will refer to the Second Amendment of the Constitution for my guidance. Since I am on this site, I don't think I need to explain my interpretation of this Amendment. I will flat out leave my service of this nation on that day. Most of my fellow soldiers I serve with will as well. Who will they send to get me? Me?? This will not be a good time for Amateur Hour. You believe what you want to in your own mind, I think I speak from a better informed position here. I am sorry that you don't sleep well. That is the reason you served before and I do today, so that citizens of this country can rest soundly in their sleep, not worry that we will be the instrument of their demise. I think that you need to look a few hundred miles north of Ft Bragg to find the real reason to stay awake at night worrying.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 6:36:39 PM EDT
One question I have always wondered. If our forces are protecting freedom around the world why is it no country we have fought in has a Constitution like ours? How do you train to protect freedom by supressing it? SF: So according to you if a group was in open revolt against the govt (as indicated is our right and responsability in the DOI under certain circumstances) you would in fact fight them? Do you really believe any politician or the Govt. in general follows the Constitution? I hope the Soldier recovers and the OIC is Court Martialed. This is exactly why US Troops should not train off base for any reason. BTW I have been in the Military.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 6:39:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 6:46:52 PM EDT
right on sf... i took the same oath in 1963, my great grandfather was in the ill volenteers,my granddad in WW1,my father in WW2,myself in korea,my brother two tours in nam mc,my daughter in rev. to make it short we all enjoy the priviledge to defend this country from all powers both foriegn and domestic!!!...what we have here is a failure to comunnicate!!!
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 8:48:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2002 8:53:32 PM EDT by trickshot]
Before you call him stupid, put yourself in the deputy's shoes for a minute. Here is how I picture it playing out: He's in the middle of nowhere and just pulled over a car with three men in it. He doesn't know what they're up to or where they came from, but one looks like a foreign national and the other two look kinda like Timothy McVeigh. Now keep in mind that cops have a tremendous imagination and are very paranoid to begin with *AND* they would love to solve a big case so they can get all kinds of accolades and a promotion to detective. At the very least, he wanated to nail some poor redneck slobs for speeding (which isn't techically a "crime" but hey, everyone wanted this police state). Also keep in mind that Fayetteville, best known for the location of Fort Bragg, is also a hotbed of criminal activity in North Carolina. Thank you War on Drugs for making our lives ever so interesting. So you know the guy's on edge--being outnumbered 3 to 1 doesn't help. He's watched all the episode of Cops on FOX as well as the "World's Most Dangerous Police Chases" I, II, III, IV, and part of V. He goes to the window and the guys start giving him some attitude or are acting kinda suspicious as if they're going to try something. Then, out of the corner of his eye, he notices the guy in the back seat reaching for a CAR-15. The next move is a no-brainer--he draws and fires hoping to incapacitate all three before they could return fire. Shoot first, ask questions and apologize later. Interestingly, this is the same thing the Special Forces teaches, isn't it? I don't know if this is how it really played out, of course, but it seems reasonable. Lessons will be learned, I guess. I feel for the families involved, but not the guys who got shot. I respect the job, but if you sign up for it, you have to accept certain risks. You might get killed by an Afghan or you might fall out of a helo, or you might get waxed by Barney Fife. I don't ususally side with the police, but everyone has the right to self defense. SF, I'm glad you're thinking. I have a hard time believing that if there is an uprising against the thieves in DC, that the military won't be Johnny on the spot with few desertions. I hope I am wrong, I really do. The discomfort and embarassment I've witnessed by Nat. Guard troops in the airports is a good sign. They know they don't belong there. I take a lot of heat for playing devil's advocate, but I do respect the job you have volunteered to do--it takes real balls.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 9:15:08 PM EDT
The next move is a no-brainer--he draws and fires hoping to incapacitate all three before they could return fire. Shoot first, ask questions and apologize later.
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So what happened to the civilian who was with them at the time? And since this FTX is such a normal thing, I would think that the local cops would have been briefed WELL in advance. [left]SF, do they take volunteers to act as OPFOR? Hell, I got some vacation time coming, and I can't think of anything more fun! (as long as "Uncle" buys the food-I still have most of my TA-50)[/left]
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 9:29:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Shoot first, ask questions and apologize later. Interestingly, this is the same thing the Special Forces teaches, isn't it?
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Again, uninformed civilian perspective of the general military does a great disservice to the special forces. Read the book I mentioned on page one for a lengthy and informed history and anecdotal analysis of the american special forces. shoot fist, ask questions later is much more of a Ranger mentality, and [b]NOT AT ALL IN LINE WITH SF TRAINING!!![/b] which is generally more interested in [b]EVERYTHING BUT[/b] shooting first.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:04:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: SF, while I was referring in part, to the scenerios you described, (and which I STILL maintain should be conducted on a military reservation), I am also refering to training conducted on a base in Louisana involving Guard units from various states. These exercises specifically involved a RKBA "peacekeeping" (read pacification) scenerio. Troops involved were Air Force and Army reserves. As for the statement "not everything the govt. does involves a conspiracy". Don't bet your life and liberty on it! BTW, ever hear of "The Resistor"? I DO pray that your soldier recovers, and for the family the casualty leaves behind. I also pray for the deputy who never should have been placed in the position he was in....
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What you are referring to is probably JRTC. Its a joint trining event/area where troops are trained up to go to places like Kosovo or Bosnia. In that case (peace keeping), yes, there would probably be some kind of get the guns out of the hands of the loonies training. Not sure as I have never had to go. I have friends who have and they said it is in no way a "take the guns away from Americans" type thing. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:08:04 PM EDT
Sounds to me like the US Army was caught with their pants down. Piss poor planning and communication. Feb 24 [url]http://www.fayettevillenc.com/obj_stories/2002/feb/m24shoot.shtml[/url] Feb 25[url]http://www.fayettevillenc.com/obj_stories/2002/feb/m25shoot.shtml[/url] The Moore County sheriff’s deputy who shot a Fort Bragg soldier to death and injured another on Saturday did not know the soldiers were part of a role-playing Special Forces exercise, said Lane Carter, chief deputy of the Moore County Sheriff’s Department. ‘‘They attacked the deputy with everything they had, and he responded accordingly,’’ Carter said. ‘‘One was trying to get the deputy’s weapon. The other was pulling a weapon out of a bag. They ended up getting shot over it. He reacted as any officer would react.’’ Butler is on administrative leave ‘‘for his emotional health,’’ Carter said. The deputy has been with the Sheriff’s Department since 2000 and has been in law enforcement for about 15 years, Carter said. But Saturday’s scenario did not anticipate the involvement of local law enforcement, he said. ‘‘Because of that, we would not have notified any of the agencies involved that this was taking place,’’ Kolb said. The scenario involved a reconnaissance mission to observe a target that would be part of an objective for a future mission, Kolb said. The soldiers were riding in a truck with a civilian driver. The civilian was a local resident playing a role as a resident of “Pineland.”
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:08:54 PM EDT
So what are the ground rules for this exercise? SF's supposed to be disarming unwilling local deputies who are carrying loaded weapons? In the company of participating civilians? Sounds like a damn dangerous thing to be doing. Deputies supposed to be giving up weapons if they have the advantage when suspects act to disarm them? Sounds counter to survival instincts. Deputies supposed to presume that anyone not complying at a vehicle stop must just be part of the exercise? Felons must love that! What, are the deputies supposed to carry unloaded weapons so SF's can carry out these capers without suffering injury & death? Now just maybe we had a situation of attitude vs attitude, with both sides knowing exactly what was going on. Force vs. Force. This is just an exercise. He'll never pull the trigger.....
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:21:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 3:37:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By colinjay:
Originally Posted By trickshot: Shoot first, ask questions and apologize later. Interestingly, this is the same thing the Special Forces teaches, isn't it?
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Again, uninformed civilian perspective of the general military does a great disservice to the special forces. Read the book I mentioned on page one for a lengthy and informed history and anecdotal analysis of the american special forces. shoot fist, ask questions later is much more of a Ranger mentality, and [b]NOT AT ALL IN LINE WITH SF TRAINING!!![/b] which is generally more interested in [b]EVERYTHING BUT[/b] shooting first.
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I suppose it would be helpful to ask the 12-19 DEAD Afghani friendlies found in a "compound" in Afghanistan about that (who were yelling "we surrender, we are friends"), but unfortunately they are unavailable.....
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 4:24:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: I suppose it would be helpful to ask the 12-19 DEAD Afghani friendlies found in a "compound" in Afghanistan about that (who were yelling "we surrender, we are friends"), but unfortunately they are unavailable.....
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Sure...it's interesting you choose to believe people who may be our enemies (sure, they say they support the new government, but a lot of former Taliban do) rather than believe the military people who were there. Now, they may have screwed up...it's been known to happen. But I will at least give them the benefit of the doubt until the final study is made. YOU seem to want to believe the worst about them. Interesting. REVEALING.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 4:25:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2002 4:29:07 AM EDT by liberty86]
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By SF:
Originally Posted By liberty86: What do you think the military will do if faced with the order to disarm civilian "terrorists"???? When given a direct order, or facing the loss of a meal ticket for themselves and their families, and imprisonment, what do you think they'll do?? I am quite sure, in my own mind, given the education system in this country over the last 50 years, what they will do......And no, I DON'T sleep particularly well nights.....
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liberty86: No horse too dead to beat. I have taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The requirement to obey the orders of the officers appointed over me is SECONDARY to the Constitutional clause. If ordered to seize firearms from US citizens not in open rebellion or revolt, I will refer to the Second Amendment of the Constitution for my guidance. You believe what you want to in your own mind, I think I speak from a better informed position here. I am sorry that you don't sleep well. That is the reason you served before and I do today, so that citizens of this country can rest soundly in their sleep, not worry that we will be the instrument of their demise.
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Hell, I suppose yer right about horses'! SF this is NO personal attack on you, but you ALREADY serve a government that is ignoring the Constitution! AND, it is only getting worse under the current administration, using "WAR on Terrorism" as the EXCUSE. You have drawn the line at "open rebellion or revolt", yet you also say I should stay awake nights worrying about folks 100 miles north of you. So, if we get fed up and do something about it (highly unlikely, I agree), you will not step in only if it's weapon confiscation of "peaceful" Americans. How reassuring... Did you know Delta had operators "observing" at Waco? Check the Congressional hearing record. Who is training the "Alphabet" federal agencies in tactics on "urban" invasion?? SF, I also took an oath years ago, it was not limited to one article of the Constitution, nor does it have an expiration date. SF, back when this thread started, I said [b]"Let's wait for all the facts. IMHO, the military should NOT be training in civilian areas....But, they have their own reasons for that, don't they......."[/b] It's Monday morning, and some facts are coming out that seem to reinforce my position and that of a couple of other posters (too few). SF, I'm not a "9/11 Patriot" I've been pulling the plow for longer than many posters here have been on the planet. My family landed in Plymouth in 1630. Two direct ancestors in Boston were "shakers and movers" in our countries fight for liberty (check my name in my profile, you'll get it). Trust me when I say this, they would have grabbed the musket long ago were they alive today. Our forbears signed the declaration of independence and paid in blood for LESS than the tyranny that comes out of Washington DC today. Remember earlier I mentioned the education system in this country. I think my point about it has been demonstrated, by your, and other posts here. Perhaps after you visit your guy, and his family today, you can find time to pay a visit on the deputy involved. He may well be emotional toast for the rest of his life....... WHY?? Oh, and colinjay, I gotta book for you too: "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross....
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 4:39:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2002 4:43:08 AM EDT by liberty86]
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By liberty86: I suppose it would be helpful to ask the 12-19 DEAD Afghani friendlies found in a "compound" in Afghanistan about that (who were yelling "we surrender, we are friends"), but unfortunately they are unavailable.....
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Sure...it's interesting you choose to believe people who may be our enemies (sure, they say they support the new government, but a lot of former Taliban do) rather than believe the military people who were there. Now, they may have screwed up...it's been known to happen. But I will at least give them the benefit of the doubt until the final study is made. YOU seem to want to believe the worst about them. Interesting. REVEALING.
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Rik, I know you've read this before, but didn't get the message. This is my reply to you EVERY time you post directed at me.... Hey Rik[:K]! Guess what!? I did a post search on you for the last 3 months. Wanna know what I found? EIGHT pages of posts! I only looked at 5 pages, but I got the picture. Out of 5 pages of posts, you posted in 8 topics having anything remotely to do with firearms! ONE post was on the equipment exchange, a sale item, it wasn't even yours, it was for a friend! Do me a favor[:K], don't address me any more on this board. I really don't consider anything I've seen you come up with to be very thought provoking. Just provoking. So[:K], go bug someone else....... (Edited to add..) I decided WTH, and checked pages 6,1 post,7,0 posts, 8,1 post None in equipment exchange. So[:K], it would appear you exist to throw stones and provoke folks........
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 4:55:36 AM EDT
Don't blame the deputy. Dumbass military practicing invading American towns, what do you expect? It's amazing someone hasn't shot back before now.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 6:00:39 AM EDT
Call me unoriginal but exactly what I was thinking has already been nailed to a "T" with these two quotes...
So what are the ground rules for this exercise? SF's supposed to be disarming unwilling local deputies who are carrying loaded weapons? In the company of participating civilians? Sounds like a damn dangerous thing to be doing. Deputies supposed to be giving up weapons if they have the advantage when suspects act to disarm them? Sounds counter to survival instincts. Deputies supposed to presume that anyone not complying at a vehicle stop must just be part of the exercise? Felons must love that! What, are the deputies supposed to carry unloaded weapons so SF's can carry out these capers without suffering injury & death?
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And, this one is off another board (GlockTalk)
Says something about the training of that deputy - being able to take two special forces members on his own. Nonetheless, a very sad incident. Seems to me, the military guys should have quickly read that this Deputy was "not playing" and was not part of their exercise. __________________ -G17Man
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It's really just too bad... Although, I don't know all the facts since I wasn't there... I have to side with the deputy with this one. Even if he did know there was training going on, you can't expect him to run back to the radio car - call dispatch - wait for confirmation - all while 3 males are sitting in a vehicle with a weapon.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 6:31:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Hey Rik[:K]! Guess what!? I did a post search on you for the last 3 months. Wanna know what I found?
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That you have too much free time? And a buttload of paranoia?
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 6:34:52 AM EDT
I may as well add fuel to the fire here. SF, thank you for your service, SF is truly the 'thinking man's soldier.' Now I ask you to think about this: You serve a gov't which has taken the same oath as you, and then they violate it on a daily basis. Surely you can understand why some of us are skeptical. An as far as the deputy being 'unaware' that such exercises take place, i have to wonder how far his head was up his @$$. Typical small-town cop on a power trip. I do find it interesting and reassuring that the local civilians are being trained in UW. I hereby volunteer to participate. Any bets on whether or not the gov't will take me up on it?
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 6:35:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Don't blame the deputy.
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Sure...why blame him for not knowing about a military exercise that's been practiced EVERY YEAR FOR FORTY YEARS? I mean, why should he know about that?
Dumbass military practicing invading American towns, what do you expect?
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I would expect people to have the brains to realize that just because the military is practicing urban warfare doesn't mean they are practicing "invading American towns." But that might be too much to expect with some people.
It's amazing someone hasn't shot back before now.
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"Shot back?" The SF guys didn't shoot at the deputy at all.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 6:41:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2002 6:46:16 AM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
I myself have no anti-goverment axe to grind here. Having said that, here is my assessment of the incident. 1.)Some Special Forces training officer is guilty of conducting a really poor pre-mission briefing. 2.)Civilian participants in military war games, should be clearly marked and wear identifying patches or clothing (this would not detract from realism, as there is no need that I can think of to simulate an attack on a fully uniformed American law enforcment officer.) 3.)The two special forces trainees made an increadibly poor tactical judgment and unfortunatly, one of them paid for it with his life. There is a tremendous amount of pressure placed on the SF trainees to avoid flunking out of the final role playing stages. When it appeared to them that they were about to be captured, Even if they knew that the deputy was not part of the scenario, they may have seen capture of any kind, as being enough to wash them out or detract from their mission points. The thought may have crossed their minds, that this looked like some rural hick deputy and that it would not be to hard to disarm him and and keep some mission points and explain the little mistake later. After all, the two SF guys had been trained for months that they were some sort of elite supermen. Most of the old Special Forces hands, That have seen some combat know better, all that training and that Green Beret, does not make you bullet proof. All these factors, may have led the SF operators to commit the worst of combat mistakes, Under estimating the enemy. The training of the average american law enforcement officer has increased markedly in the last two decades. The police academies of almost every state have instuctors that are grads of Gunsite and Thunder Ranch. They are taught defensive tactics and weapon retention. American LEO's are also taught to never surrender their weapon in the event of a gun grab, To do so means that the officers chances of survival once disarmed are only about 30%! "YOU PUT YOUR HAND ON MY WEAPON AND SOMEBODY IS GOING TO DIE IN THE NEXT THREE SECONDS." That officer is going to do his level best to make sure it's you instead of him. And finaly, Someone mentioned at the start of this thread that, The officer should have know they were army, because they were crew cut white guys. If the Okla Highway Patrol officer that stopped Tim Mcviegh had followed that line of logic. His In Loving Memory picture would decorate the wall of the Oklahoma State Police Memorial.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 7:12:53 AM EDT
CNN and MSNBC both have stories on it. Both say that the local Sheriffs office was not informed about the exercise. Seems like the LEO was not informed about it. Pulls over a car with 3 people in it, and one guy goes for his gun, the other is going for a CAR-15. I have a hard time believing that there is a LEO that wouldn't shoot in that situation. Av.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 7:19:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2002 7:24:25 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Don't blame the deputy.
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Sure...why blame him for not knowing about a military exercise that's been practiced EVERY YEAR FOR FORTY YEARS? I mean, why should he know about that?
Dumbass military practicing invading American towns, what do you expect?
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I would expect people to have the brains to realize that just because the military is practicing urban warfare doesn't mean they are practicing "invading American towns." But that might be too much to expect with some people.
It's amazing someone hasn't shot back before now.
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"Shot back?" The SF guys didn't shoot at the deputy at all.
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We don't have all the facts, but it looks like we have 2 guys are in a car with a towel head driving. They get pulled over, and try to jump the deputy and disarm him. They have hidden weapons in the car and try to deploy those. WTF is the deputy supposed to do? ASSUME these guys are US Military? We our country on "high" terrorist alert every 30 days, and you want the deputy to "guess" these guys *might* be US military? Geeze, that is asking alot. No, they didn't shoot, I didn't mean to imply that. But when black helicopters swoop into a town in the middle of the night, blow up building and fire full auto weapons, I'm amazed that a citizen hasn't assumed the worst and fired on these guys. You want live fire training Ops in local towns? Fine. Tell everyone, ensure safety. But these Ops are often run as a total surprise to the local goverment, and the local folks never get told. Many folks DO believe MOUT training is about occupying US cities and controlling US civilians, and probably about rounding up guns. Training in US cities would be a good way to desensitizes our soldiers to those very actions, wouldn't it? I'm not sure how I would react to find my town invaded, with martial law being imposed. I might just assume the balloon has gone up and make my decision not to board the train.......
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