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Posted: 2/22/2002 5:55:22 AM EDT
The end of Eric's post (In Israel, Reality Begins To Sink In) " on the strength of Israeli society and the drive for national survival will determine the outcome." Reminded me of just how far the Israel's will go when it comes to national survival . On June 8, 1967, 34 U.S. Sailors gave their lives defending the USS Liberty against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel, while in international waters. Depending on who you believe the attack is matter of controversy. Secretary of State Dean Rusk and former JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer say it was no accident. Israel and its supporters insist it was a "tragic case of misidentification" and charge that the survivors are either lying or too emotionally involved to see the truth. I would have to group myself with the intentional vote (the attack lasted over 75 minutes on a US flagged ship and there is strong "rumor" that the CIA has the radio intercepts from the pilots that clearly shows they knew what they were doing). so now that I'm on eric's short list , anyone want to join me :)
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:07:13 AM EDT
[b]rogerb[/b], my dear boy, you're not on my short list! We've had this discussion too many times before for me to keep a 'short' list of those who disagree with me! The opinion that you've expressed is a very popular view of the tragedy. It's one that's held by a lot of folks whose opinion I have great respect for, even though I don't share it! It's not my view of the tragedy, and I doubt that either of our minds will be changed by what follows! This is America, after all, not some Middle Eastern country![:D] Eric The(PickAnyOne[u]Other[/u]ThanIsrael!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:25:16 AM EDT
I joined the Navy in June 1968 after the Liberty was attacked. I was a CT, the rate that was on the Liberty. I talked to many people who were "in the know" during my enlistment. The attack was deliberate. John
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:28:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2002 6:30:29 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By rogerb: ...the attack lasted over 75 minutes on a US flagged ship .....:)
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That right there is ALL you need to know on this subject. The ones who think this was a case of mistaken identity are ALSO the ones who basically think Israel is NOT capable of doing wrong. On the other hand, maybe it was a case of mistaken identity. Those Israeli fighters thought they were attacking the United States, a sovereign nation. In reality they were attacking the United States, Israel's butt boy. Oooppss... their mistake.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:32:17 AM EDT
The USS Liberty incident is a national disgrace. (As was the USS Pueblo and the North Koreans.) There were radio intercepts - there was everything known to man indicating the attack was premeditated murder. I've said this before - The USS Liberty was as sovereign as Rhode Island. To some here the fact that the Liberty was flying the Stars and Stripes and the "Jack" when attacked mean nothing. What the hell, only a few Americans killed and those were mere sailors. I'll never forget and I sure as hell won't ever forgive. [X]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:36:23 AM EDT
Thanks Eric, i did not want to piss anyone off , least not a moderator !!!. By the way you should read "See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism" Author: Robert Baer , he was a CO who spent a lot of time in Lebanon, it has nothing to do with the Liberty, but makes some eye opening associations w/Yasser,Black 13, Embassy bombings and lots more. A very good book that i'm sure you would enjoy.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:54:51 AM EDT
Post from rogerb -
Thanks Eric, i did not want to piss anyone off , least not a moderator !!!.
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Short of a personal attack on the memory of Gen. Robert E. Lee, I can't think of anything anyone could say on this Board about me personally, that could piss me off! And I never, ever use my moderator position to anyone's disadvantage! But the last time the USS Liberty subject came up, I was reviled as being 'unpatriotic' for believing the attack to be an accident. Hell, DaMan, even had the effrontery to call me a 'sh|thouse lawyer'! And I didn't delete [u]that[/u] spiteful post, or report him to my superiors, or anything![:D] But to hold that the Israeli attack was deliberate and premeditated, you must first propose a reason for Israel committing such a stupid, stupid, stupid move at the time of their grandest military victory over their most hated enemies! Do you believe that they could carry on with a '75 minute' attack and not for one minute believe that the US Sixth Fleet would [b]not[/b] immediately send fighters to rescue their shipmates aboard the USS Liberty? For what purpose? The [u]first[/u] rationale was to 'blind' the US spy ship from discovering that the Israelis were going to attack the Golan Heights and wrest control of them from Syria! When the time-sequence of events later proved that this was not a viable rationale, it was abandoned for an even more insidious one: The attack on the USS Liberty was done solely to cover up a mass-murder of Egyptian POWs by Israeli forces in the Sinai, purportedly near the coast where the USS LIberty was steaming. We can find King Tut, but those 20-60-300-1000-whatever dead Egyptian POWs cannot be found! The numbers are not settled, because the number rises and falls depending upon the identity of who's telling the story! So, the Israelis, not satisfied with a victory over the Arabs, decided to take on the United States? For what possible purpose? Eric The(Patient)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:16:03 AM EDT
rogerb - here's how to help people, particularly the Israel apologists, understand the USS Liberty. Walk up to their house, and knock on their door. Look them in the eye. Look their relatives in the eye. Walk back out to the street, and then to proceed to pound their house with a howitzer, and strafe them with .50 cal machine gun fire, oh, for 75 minutes or so. Once you have finished, If anyone remains alive, explain to them it was a case of mistaken identity - that you thought they were terrorists, and that the US flag on the flag pole outside their house wasn't unfurled. Explain to them that even though they came outside and begged you to stop shelling them, you thought they were lying to you about being American citizens. Explain to them that even tho they lost numerous lives in an unprovoked attack, they should hold no grudge cuz, after all, it was a mistake.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:37:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: But to hold that the Israeli attack was deliberate and premeditated, you must first propose a reason for Israel committing such a stupid, stupid, stupid move at the time of their grandest military victory over their most hated enemies!
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Maybe they felt the US presence JEOPARDIZED their "grandest military victory?" And no you don't need a reason. Can you give us a reason Hitler did some of the stuff he did? Or why Mao exected millions of Chinese?? Or why Stalin oppressed millions of Russians?? Or why Andrea yates drown her 5 children?? There is NO "reason" in these acts of murder and treachery. Unreasonable people OFTEN do things that defy reason. Its my contention that this is JUST such a case.
Do you believe that they could carry on with a '75 minute' attack and not for one minute believe that the US Sixth Fleet would [b]not[/b] immediately send fighters to rescue their shipmates aboard the USS Liberty?
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Well, for ONE thing, the communications antennas were the FIRST things the Israeli fighters targeted. The Liberty was incommunicado for the entire attack. Good strategy for carrying out an uncontested, unprovoked attack. I find it entirely inexplicable that you would defend Israel in this. Unless there's more than meets the eye with ETH. Be buddies with Israel if you want, but on THIS one, you are pickin' the wrong horse, sir. IF you champion American sovereignty. But we've done this ad nauseum, so I'll let you gove your "reasons" for why you defend the indefensible, and leave it at that.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:39:34 AM EDT
Hmmm...so Israel attacked one of our ships THIRTY FIVE YEARS ago... Wow, I guess we better not ally ourselves with Germany, I mean they were at war with us only 60 years ago. Or how about Mexico? We fought a war with them back in the 1840s, guess we'd better never do business with those losers. Jesus, you people need to grab a first class ticket on the clue train. Do you want the world holding the current American administration and public responsible for decisions made in the Vietnam war?
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:49:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Hmmm...so Israel attacked one of our ships THIRTY FIVE YEARS ago... Wow, I guess we better not ally ourselves with Germany, I mean they were at war with us only 60 years ago. Or how about Mexico? We fought a war with them back in the 1840s, guess we'd better never do business with those losers.
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Invalid comparison. The members of teh Third Reich, and Sancho Panza and Santa Anna are no longer in power. In fact they are dead, many of them, many by our own hands. The same people who committed the atrocity against the USS Liberty are still in power in Israel. Sharon among them. BIG difference.
Do you want the world holding the current American administration and public responsible for decisions made in the Vietnam war?
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if we committed an unprovoked attack on a non-combatant nation, nearly sinking one of their ships, then YES, I do.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:50:27 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
Maybe they felt the US presence JEOPARDIZED their "grandest military victory?"
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[b]How so?[/b] C'mon give it your best shot! But don't use any of the lame-assed excuses that you would excoriate the liberals for using! Eric The(JustToBeFair)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:58:58 AM EDT
rogerb: Many members of the ships crew were Americans of the Jewish faith, but stand by to be called an anti-Semite. This is the AGTR5, USS Liberty: [b]455' long, 62' wide, 10,680 gross tons.[/b] [img]gidusko.50megs.com/agtr5/agtr5.gif[/img] This is the El Quseir, the Egyptian horse-carrier that Israel maintains it [b]thought[/b] it was attacking: [b]275' long, 42' wide, 2,640 gross tons.[/b] [img]members.aol.com/rocky376/elquseir.gif[/img] You be the judge.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:01:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from garandman -
Maybe they felt the US presence JEOPARDIZED their "grandest military victory?"
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[b]How so?[/b] C'mon give it your best shot! But don't use any of the lame-assed excuses that you would excoriate the liberals for using! Eric The(JustToBeFair)Hun[>]:)]
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Lame-assed?? ME????? Never. It would jeopardize their victory, just as ANYONE having advanced knowledge of your military ops would jeopardize those ops. Given the USA's proud tradition of having an exaggerated sense of fairness, we might have given the Egyptians advance notice. But, you are muddying the waters for a VERY simple issue. I don't need to give you a reason for Israel's treachery, as treachery DEFIES reason. You need to explain to me how an ally, in open waters, during daylight hours, with a clearly marked US ship, nowhere near a combat zone and NOT in teh heat of battle, after making numerous passes to identify the vessel, could, FOR SEVENTY FIVE MINUTES LONG, with the US sailors able to see the eyes of their attackers and pleading with them to cease and desist, MISTAKENLY (yeah, right) nearly sink that vessel with torpedoes and machine gun fire. UNTIL you can explain that to me, sir, you'll get no efforts for me to give you any more detailed "reasons."
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:03:37 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
Well, for ONE thing, the communications antennas were the FIRST things the Israeli fighters targeted. The Liberty was incommunicado for the entire attack. Good strategy for carrying out an uncontested, unprovoked attack.
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But, garandman, the USS Liberty did report that it was being attacked by 'unidentified aircraft', so it [u]did[/u] get the message out and those wiley Israelis must have overheard them getting their message out! And the Sixth Fleet twice launched planes to go to their rescue, which were twice called back from their rescue sorties! So did the Israelis know [u]beforehand[/u] that these squadrons would be recalled? What luck! It certainly gives a very different meaning to the phrase 'luck of the Jews'!
Can you give us a reason Hitler did some of the stuff he did? Or why Mao exected millions of Chinese?? Or why Stalin oppressed millions of Russians?? Or why Andrea yates drown her 5 children??
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Yes, I can. The correct answer for the reasons that Hitler/Mao/Stalin/Yates did what they did is that they are/were all [b]crazy[/b] and [b]evil[/b]! Wow, that was an easy test! Do I get some sort of prize now? Eric The(IDoubtIt)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:22:33 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
Given the USA's proud tradition of having an exaggerated sense of fairness, we might have given the Egyptians advance notice.
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Careful now, garandman, you are accusing the US of stabbing an ally in the back with that one! The USS Liberty was present where it was, when it was, simply to spy on Soviet aircraft being used in defense of Egypt! Not that it was sharing whatever intelligence it got from this snooping with Israel, but for its own strategic and tactical purposes. It is amazing, however, that the greater part of Arab historians do contend that the attack on the USS Liberty was accidental! They reason thus: how else to explain the Israelis attacking their patron nation in such an awkward way? I feel somehow unclean to have them on my side in this argument![:D] Eric The(INeedABath)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:24:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:26:08 AM EDT
Allow me to pose a question: You see on the news that violent inmates have escaped from prison near you, and are reported heading toward a town near you. You put your children to bed and hit the sack next to your wife. In the middle of the night, you're awoken by a crash/bump/thud and grab your weapons. Do you fire into the shadows? Or do you make sure of your target before putting your finger on the trigger? Israel and the Israel lobbyists would have us believe they just fired into the shadows.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:15:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2002 1:13:32 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: And the Sixth Fleet twice launched planes to go to their rescue, which were twice called back from their rescue sorties!
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which only goes to suggest that there were well-placed Americans complicit in the treachery. The type that would BURY the truth in the Congressional investigations that followed. Proof??? You want proof??? I can give you 59,000 proofs of the treachery of well-placed Americans. These "proofs" were Recently memorialized on a black wall in D.C. The same Americans that sacrificed 59,000 of our boys in 'Nam got their "sea legs in treachery" in the Mediterranean. Once you've got the blood of a few dozen sailors on your hands, another 59,000 becomes a bit easier. Would you even notice the additional plasma????
The correct answer for the reasons that Hitler/Mao/Stalin/Yates did what they did is that they are/were all [b]crazy[/b] and [b]evil[/b]! Wow, that was an easy test! Do I get some sort of prize now? Eric The(IDoubtIt)Hun[>]:)]
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No prize. Just apply that simple, clear, well-stated logic to the perpetrators of the attck on the USS Liberty. Crazy and evil. Couldn't have said it better myself, Eric. BTW, the truth is ITS OWN reward. THAT is your prize.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:54:53 AM EDT
I could go into more reasons that the attack was deliberate, but I am not sure what is still classified. I can not discuss it even after all these years. You will have to trust me on this. I also think some people will never admit the truth due to their politics. John ex CTT2 USN
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 10:13:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Invalid comparison.
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Nope, very valid comparison. I reject your rejection.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 1:08:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By garandman: Invalid comparison.
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Nope, very valid comparison. I reject your rejection.
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yeah, well I reject your rejection of my rejection. ANd I'll go ahead and reject your rejection of my rejection of your rejection. Take that you.....you.....you....reject, you. [BD] [}:D] [:D]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 4:32:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mushoot: I joined the Navy in June 1968 after the Liberty was attacked. I was a CT, the rate that was on the Liberty. I talked to many people who were "in the know" during my enlistment. The attack was deliberate. John
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John - probably you're still bound by certain security oaths but in this case I am not. Communications Technicians - "CT's" are a Navy enlisted rating however their title gives little indication of their purpose. CT's work for a little outfit in Washington and when you're in that building there is a wall of granite and that wall is full of the names of CT's who died for their country just doing their jobs during the "cold" war. The names of the CT's who died on the Liberty are carved into that wall. ------------------------------------------------ CT's have some of the highest clearances in the military. Among the skills that might be present are linguistics and ELINT training. I worked with many CT's on many patrols and if a CT tells you something - which is damn rare - take it to the bank as they damn sure know - most often before the Captain. John, thanks for your post and thank you for your service. Israel got away with Murder ! [X] RikWriter, you need to stand-down from this one. You're the one with no clue.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 5:16:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2002 5:54:42 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Hmmm...so Israel attacked one of our ships THIRTY FIVE YEARS ago...
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There is no statute of limitations on MURDER ! HMMMMMMMMMM.... [X]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 5:23:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: The end of Eric's post (In Israel, Reality Begins To Sink In) " on the strength of Israeli society and the drive for national survival will determine the outcome."
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"on the strength of Israeli society....." my a$$!! They survive because we flood them with money and weapons and intelligence ".....the drive for national survival...." Eric, if this drivel is actually from one of your posts this is a new low.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 5:24:15 PM EDT
The reason that we know anything more than we did back in 1967 is because thirty years have lapsed and sensitive, classified materials have been released by both the United States and Israel in 1997. That is precisely how we found out that Israel communicated its intention to Washington that it was going to attack the Golan Heights [u]prior[/u] to the attack on the USS Liberty. The [u]initial[/u] reason given by some for the attack on the USS Liberty was that it was gathering information that Israel was planning to attack the Golan Heights, something that the US government did not want to see happen! The Israelis attacked the USS Liberty simply to keep it from discovering Israel's true intentions, so the story went. With the release of the diplomatic communiques between Tel Aviv and Washington DC indicating that Israel had already announced to the US of its intentions to attack Syrian positions on the Golan Heights, there was a mad scramble to find out another secret that the Israelis were willing to commit murder on the high seas to protect! Enter the alleged murder of Egyptian POWs by the IDF in the Sinai! Even though Israel had captured and safely guarded more than 10,000 other Egyptian POWs without incident, there was an unsubstantiated story that 20 Egyptian POWs had been murdered in cold blood by the IDF near the town of El Arish, on the coast of the Sinai. The number grew with retelling to 30, then 60, then 300, and then finally 1,000 Egyptian POWs, dead at the ruthless hands of the IDF! This was the rationale, then, behind Israel's attack on the USS Liberty! It simply had to keep this sordid story of wanton butchery out of the public limelight to protect its public image! And it was willing to commit one more atrocity to cover up the first atrocity! Attack the lightly armed USS Liberty! And instead of attacking the hapless ship with armor-piercing bombs that would likely send the ship to the bottom of the Mediterranean in short measure, arm up your Mirage fighter-bombers with napalm! And further limit the weapons of attack to air-to-air missiles and cannon! Surely this was the most unpromising naval air-combat sortie ever put together by a nation that had just proven it knew how to fight a multi-front modern war! Why not just send the torpedo boats? No one could ever prove they weren't Egyptian and so your tracks would be well-covered. The United States officially says it was a mistake, Israel officially says it was a mistake, so that's the end of the matter. Right? Eric The(IMeanUnlessTheUSNavyWasInOnItToo!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 5:30:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Israel and the Israel lobbyists would have us believe they just fired into the shadows.
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Jarhead_22, I understand your analogy however there were no shadows. This attack by Israel on an unarmed U.S. Navy ship was murder. Premeditated MURDER !!
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 5:37:28 PM EDT
The Israel first group is alive and well here...bet they like Jonathan Pollard too! The Israeli's showed themselves for the thugs they are. They shot up the Liberty's lifeboats for christ sake. They tried to sink the boat leaving no witnesses. They knew it was a US ship, Dyan ordered the attack. Johnson covered up the attack and ordered the crew not to say anything under penalty of courts martial and jail...why so afraid of the truth? Sorry, the Israeli's aren't our friends. These Jewish schmucks sold the Red Chinese their version of the Exocet missile so they could sink US ships...why? Money! (what a surprise). But, they got into trouble, they sold a weapon that used US technology, so they had to sell the poor communists the improved version. Then they were selling the Red Chinese AWACS planes, we convinced them not to...of course, we had to bribe them with more taxpayer funds. Also remember, when our hostages were in Iran for 444 days, it was the Israeli's who supported the Iranian's...keeping their F-16's running and supplying support personnel...once again, screw the US for the bucks...great friends we have their. Sorry, but the Israeli's are mercenary bastards who'd sell us to the highest bidder...they are no ones friend, just our paid whore right now.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 5:45:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: Jarhead_22, I understand your analogy however there were no shadows. This attack by Israel on an unarmed U.S. Navy ship was murder. Premeditated MURDER !!
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You're preaching to the converted, Sub Sailor, believe me. I tried to make it clear in my analogy that [b]Israel and the Israel-can-do-no-wrong crew would have us believe[/b] that they "fired into the shadows," but we know it all happened in the clear bright light of day, while some crewmen were sunbathing on deck and the National Ensign flapped on the fantail and the big, white, freshly painted "GTR5" was visible on the freshly painted Haze Grey hull.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 5:51:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The United States officially says it was a mistake, Israel officially says it was a mistake, so that's the end of the matter. Right? Eric The(IMeanUnlessTheUSNavyWasInOnItToo!)Hun[>]:)]
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There were many "CT's" (Communications Technicians) on the USS Liberty. CT's work for an outfit in Washington that is housed in a building with a lobby. In that buildings' lobby there is a wall of granite. Carved into that granite are the names of CT's who gave their lives for their country during the cold war. Included on that wall are the CT's who were murdered by Israel during the attack on the USS Liberty. When I'm dead or that wall is dust is when it will be over for me. Right ? [X] Yes, the Navy was ordered to cover-up and lie.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:01:46 PM EDT
Eric Your post are usually very sharp but you are very naive on this matter. Given the length of the attack, the multiple runs at the ship, the radio messages, the flag being shown and the cover up it is impossible to believe that the attack was an "accident". Only people that believe that Israel can do no wrong would take that position. I find that the most simple explanation is usually the the truth. The Jews did not like us snooping around for whatever reason. They decided to stop us and maybe even teach us a lesson. They gambled they could complete the attack before a meaningful counter-attack. They counted on the fact that they had won the war and that the pro-Israel U.S. government would not make a big deal about the attack. They were right. Our government gave some lame excuses and swept the issue under the rug. Meanwhile the assholes got away with killing our servicemen and we continued to send them money, F-15s, F-16s, M-16s, Patriot missiles and everything else. No serious politician in the U.S. would ever try and take on the pro-Israel lobby in our country. It would be political suicide. I know you are a very intelligent person but if you are naive enough to believe that this was a simple "accident" then I have a post-ban Oly I would like to sell you for $2000. You sound gullible enough to take the deal.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 6:46:26 PM EDT
Post from 5subslr5 -
"on the strength of Israeli society....." my a$$!! ".....the drive for national survival...." Eric, if this drivel is actually from one of your posts this is a new low.
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Yes, it was from one of my posts - I was quoting a writer from Ha'aretz or the Jerusalem Post - look up the thread 'Reality in Israel Has Sunk In' or something like that, and read it yourself! But even though I was quoting someone else, what he said is something that I firmly believe in wholeheartedly - that it is the character and moral fibre of Israel that keeps that country free and strong, even more than the paltry $3Billion in US foreign aid that they receive! But surely, 5subslr5, you don't really believe that they survive simply because 'we flood them with money and weapons and intelligence.' If that were true, that money, weapons and intelligence were all that was needed to keep a country afloat, then.... [size=3][b]where in the hell is the Republic of South Vietnam?[/b][/size=3] The United States practically bathed that country with 'money, weapons, and intelligence', as well as the lifeblood of 56,000 Americans, and yet did not survive! It is incredible that you have so little regard for the Israelis! I would have thought you might admire their military achievements, their courage, their steadfastness. Oh, but that's right, you believe that it wasn't anything the Israelis did, they were simply paid to do it by the US! Eric The(JustLikeTheFrenchPaidAmericanPatriotsToFi­ghtForIndependanceAgainstBritain!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:23:10 PM EDT
Post from Flash66 -
The Jews did not like us snooping around for whatever reason.
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Jews? What Jews? We're talking [u]Israel[/u] here! Are we going to call the USS Liberty a Christian ship?
They decided to stop us and maybe even teach us a lesson.
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So the USS Liberty was spying on [u]Israel[/u], and not on the [u]Soviets in Egypt[/u]? That's news to me. Especially since the USS Liberty made a stop at Gibraltar to pick up three Russian language experts before it steamed into harm's way! And by teaching the US a lesson, you mean doing something that not even the evil empire Soviet Union ever did during almost 50 years of Cold War?
They gambled they could complete the attack before a meaningful counter-attack.
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But if either two of the launched squadrons of US aircraft from the carriers had not been called back on 'orders from the highest levels' the attack would have been interrupted. How was it that Israel could so cooly count on US acceptance of an attack on their ship on the high seas?
They counted on the fact that they had won the war and that the pro-Israel U.S. government would not make a big deal about the attack.
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What does winning a war against the Arabs have to do with keeping the United States from delivering a knockout punch in retaliation for the deliberate murder of American sailors and intelligence personnel? At the time of the Six Day War in 1967, the US was not the principal ally and supporter of the State of Israel! Britain and France were! That's why the Israelis were flying Mirage and Mystere aircraft and not US F-4 Phantoms (they came [u]after[/u] the Six Day War). Eric The(Well-Versed)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:26:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from 5subslr5 -
"on the strength of Israeli society....." my a$$!! ".....the drive for national survival...." Eric, if this drivel is actually from one of your posts this is a new low.
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Yes, it was from one of my posts - I was quoting a writer from Ha'aretz or the Jerusalem Post - look up the thread 'Reality in Israel Has Sunk In' or something like that, and read it yourself! But even though I was quoting someone else, what he said is something that I firmly believe in wholeheartedly - that it is the character and moral fibre of Israel that keeps that country free and strong, even more than the paltry $3Billion in US foreign aid that they receive! But surely, 5subslr5, you don't really believe that they survive simply because 'we flood them with money and weapons and intelligence.' If that were true, that money, weapons and intelligence were all that was needed to keep a country afloat, then.... [size=3][b]where in the hell is the Republic of South Vietnam?[/b][/size=3] The United States practically bathed that country with 'money, weapons, and intelligence', as well as the lifeblood of 56,000 Americans, and yet did not survive! It is incredible that you have so little regard for the Israelis! I would have thought you might admire their military achievements, their courage, their steadfastness. Oh, but that's right, you believe that it wasn't anything the Israelis did, they were simply paid to do it by the US! Eric The(JustLikeTheFrenchPaidAmericanPatriotsToFi­ghtForIndependanceAgainstBritain!)Hun[>]:)]
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No Eric, it was the American Patriots who paid the French to fight against Britain.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:29:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The United States officially says it was a mistake, Israel officially says it was a mistake, so that's the end of the matter. Right? Eric The(IMeanUnlessTheUSNavyWasInOnItToo!)Hun[>]:)]
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There were many "CT's" (Communications Technicians) on the USS Liberty. CT's work for an outfit in Washington that is housed in a building with a lobby. In that buildings' lobby there is a wall of granite. Carved into that granite are the names of CT's who gave their lives for their country during the cold war. Included on that wall are the CT's who were murdered by Israel during the attack on the USS Liberty. When I'm dead or that wall is dust is when it will be over for me. Right ? [X] Yes, the Navy was ordered to cover-up and lie.
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Hun, you might want to explain the Israeli position on this one.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:40:54 PM EDT
Post from 5subslr5 -
No Eric, it was the American Patriots who paid the French to fight against Britain.
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Huh? The poor Americans paid the well-to-do French to fight against Britain, France's age old enemy? That's certainly turning history on its head, subsailor. I believe that the French pretty much bankrolled a lot of America's revolution, even to the point of assigning its officers to work for the Americans, and providing a fleet to bottle up Cornwallis at Yorktown. Eric The(Certain)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:01:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: The USS Liberty incident is a national disgrace. (As was the USS Pueblo and the North Koreans.) There were radio intercepts - there was everything known to man indicating the attack was premeditated murder. I've said this before - The USS Liberty was as sovereign as Rhode Island. To some here the fact that the Liberty was flying the Stars and Stripes and the "Jack" when attacked mean nothing. What the hell, only a few Americans killed and those were mere sailors. I'll never forget and I sure as hell won't ever forgive. [X]
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Damn, Didn’t the airforce just smoke five of our guys in afgasistan? I say we put them all to the loyalty test!!! What a load of crap! The radio logs have been examined by every three letter agency in the books. (and some not) EVERY fucking one of them has said there is no grounds for any allegations of wrongdoing. Yet you fecalphilic shitstains drag this old dog out on an almost weekly basis (every time Eric kicks holes in some moronic smear thread) and it still won’t hunt. In a world where "friendly fire" casualties always outnumber KIA you cock jockeys think your argument demonstrates culpability, what it actually demonstrates is personal bias. . . . . Then again we’ve got all these “ex navy” people saying that aliens assisted in the editing of the radio logs and Jerry Ford himself told them so. *sigh*
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:06:50 PM EDT
Post from 5subslr5 -
Hun, you might want to explain the Israeli position on this one.
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Sorry, but I don't know what the Israeli position on your statement might be...but I think it would be a whole lot less vindictive than yours. But you would need to ask them that yourself. I do know from reading military history that accidents caused by 'friendly fire' are extremely common in wartime. There were some 5300+ 'friendly fire' casualties during the Vietnam War. I don't think many of these accidents resulted in anyone being called a murderer. In 1988, the USS Vincennes (with pretty sophisticated radar and intelligence sources not available to Israel in 1967) mistakenly downed an Iranian civilian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians, on a bright sunny day. I don't believe the Captain of that cruiser was charged with murder, even though those under his command somehow managed with the excellent electronic equipment aboard to mistake a [b]European built A300 Airbus for an Iranian F-14 fighter aircraft![/b] Hey, that's as bad as Israel's mistake in misidentifying the USS Liberty! During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by 'friendly fire.' Any courtmartials that you can remember? In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with [u]large U.S. flags[/u] painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a [u]clear day[/u] in the 'no fly' zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. 'Thought they were Soviet Hind choppers.' Murder charges? Nope! Such incidents are so common as to hardly be remarkable. In fact, the day [u]before[/u] the USS Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots had accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns south of Jenin on the West Bank. So if it's murder for Israel to do it, it must be murder when we do the same thing, huh? BTW, I am not with the Israel First Crowd, or even with the Israel-Can-Do-Nothing-Wrong Crowd, but I am with the Israel Next, Right After US, Crowd.[:D] Eric The(IfYou'reRight,OurNavyHasFailedItsSailorsA­ndThat'sAGreaterSinThanIsrael's)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:30:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:34:01 PM EDT
Easy there Instant_Karma, I love these 'ex-navy' types - my favorite uncle was one of them, and he was my [u]second[/u] all-time hero! But can you imagine how a serviceman might react if he believes that his service has left him high and dry, as the US Navy has quite possibly left the survivors of the USS Liberty? First, the United States UN Representative takes to the floor of the General Assembly and announces on the very first day of the Six Day War, that no US naval units are 'within 100 miles' of the Israeli-Egyptian coast! This is followed up by orders from the Sixth Fleet for all US naval vessels to leave the area and maintain at least a 100 mile 'no sail' zone off the coasts of Israel and Egypt! That is why when the information is received in Washington that the USS Liberty is under attack, the President and his advisors are dumbstruck, thinking that Soviet aircraft are the attacking planes on a US ship far out at sea! That's the reason that the White House ordered a recall of both 'rescue' squadrons that were attempting to come to the aid of the USS Liberty! They were assured by their Naval commanders that there were no US ships within 100 miles of the coast. That's also why Israel was confident that the USS Liberty could not have been a US naval vessel, they had been privately assured that no US vessels were in the area! So the 'cloak' that surrounded the spy ship was too cleverly drawn, and ultimately left it in a very vunerable position. A lot has been said about the fact that the US flag was flying majestically above the ship. On a strafing run, at what, 600 mph at 600 feet{?}, just how much of a 8 x 5 flag can you really see in those few seconds? I'd like to see an answer to that question. But we know that the original flag was shot down in the first strafing run, only to be replaced with a second flag. This second flag was obscured, however, by the smoke from the fires started by the igniting napalm. BTW, how often is napalm used in air attacks against naval targets? Eric The(JustServingHistory)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:35:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:52:03 PM EDT
Post from Paul -
This ship was strafed repeatedly - at "knife fighting range". The pilots could read the name tags on the dead sailors on the decks if they had wanted. These weren't cruise missile attacks or GPS guided bombs dropped from 20K ft. I can identify a ship's nationality at ten miles in clear weather. There are others who have better eyes and can pick them out farther away. They are different hull shapes, weapon and communication systems and even colors. Let alone the national ensign.
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Really, Paul? Then this superb trait was not shared by others in the service in the 60s. Why else would the Israeli fighters referred to as 'unidentified aircraft' and not as Israeli Mirage and Mystere fighters in the ship's log? And just what sort of electronic jamming devices were available to the Israelis back in 1967? How could the electronic warfare folks aboard the USS Vincennes make such a colossal error in mistaking an Airbus for a F-14? The last time we had this discussion the thread ended with my questions about how an Israeli aircraft can overwhelm the electronic capabilities of a US spy ship back in 1967. I did not think that this would be possible, that an ordinary fighter-bomber could have such sophisticated equipment aboard back in 1967! In Israel? It wouldn't be US made, but British or French made. You had given an answer that sounded as if the Israelis had some pretty sophisticated equipment to do the jamming, but I never got an affrimative reply when I asked if you knew for certain that they did. Did they? And it really doesn't matter, 'cause they were able to send out a Mayday signal. The strange things started happening [u]after[/u] the Sixth Fleet received their distress call. And why napalm for the attack? Why not armor piercing bombs? And why not just stand off and send torpedo after torpedo into the burning hulk? Surely by then, the Israelis knew and understood that no help was on the way for their hapless victim! How do you Navy types explain the lackluster response by the Sixth Fleet to an unprovoked attack on the high seas on one of its own? Eric The(Inquisitive)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 8:57:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Easy there Instant_Karma, I love these 'ex-navy' types - my favorite uncle was one of them, and he was my [u]second[/u] all-time hero!
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Eric, Every stinking male member of my family has served in the army. (One of them was a doctor for the csa but we won’t go there) I have zero REPEAT zero against anyone who has served in this nations armed forces, but anyone who uses that as a basis to pretend factual debate is immediately suspect.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:05:57 PM EDT
Post from Paul -
I can identify a ship's nationality at ten miles in clear weather.
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Yes, maybe so, but can the flyboys do that well? They can possibly pick out aircraft from the same distance, but not ships, since they were not trained or expected to do much fighting against ships in the '67 War. The Navy guys aboard the USS Liberty couldn't identify the attacking aircraft as Mirages and Mysteres, so maybe its just a service thing! Had they been able to accurately describe the attacking aircraft as [b]obviously Israeli[/b] (the Soviets and their client Arabs flew only Migs and Hunters by 1967), maybe LBJ wouldn't have been so scared that it was the Soviets attacking the USS Liberty! BTW, I'm not attacking Capt. Rogers of the USS Vincennes, it's just an easy case to show that mistakes are sometimes made. What's your view of the rationale behind Israel's attack on the USS Liberty? I don't believe that you've ever given your view, IIRC. And believe me, if there was evidence of a motive, we would have all heard of it by now! Eric The(StillInquisitive)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:10:13 PM EDT
Post from Instant_Karma -
One of them was a doctor for the csa but we won’t go there
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Why not? That's my favorite service for all time! We ain't gonna let a little matter like Appomattox spoil our fun or tarnish our memories, now, are we? Eric The(Forget?Hell!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:32:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:33:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:37:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2002 9:41:17 PM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By Instant_Karma: Yet you fecalphilic shitstains drag this old dog out on an almost weekly basis (every time Eric kicks holes in some moronic smear thread) and it still won’t hunt. In a world where "friendly fire" casualties always outnumber KIA you cock jockeys think your argument demonstrates culpability, what it actually demonstrates is personal bias.
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What the hell is wrong with you? Are you a complete and utter fuckwit? Can't you engage in a civilized discussion without resorting to personal insults? That characteristic betrays a lack of intelligence and creativity, don't you think?
what it actually demonstrates is personal bias
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Remember, rogerb, who told you that the anti-Semite flag would be waved? Why make this personal? In one post you've lowered the bar in this thread significantly. Thank you for playing. If you need any of the multisyllabic words I used explained to you, shoot me an email. [b]***Edited to add: Or perhaps personal attacks are allowed when they agree with prevailing opinions?***[/b]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:42:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Hell, DaMan, even had the effrontery to call me a 'sh|thouse lawyer'! And I didn't delete [u]that[/u] spiteful post, or report him to my superiors, or anything![:D] Eric The(Patient)Hun[>]:)]
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Thanks! Thats the one post you should have deleted for all us underappreciated Esq's!
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 10:03:41 PM EDT
Post from Jarhead_22 -
***Edited to add: Or perhaps personal attacks are allowed when they agree with prevailing opinions?***
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'Prevailing opinions'? Geez, Jarhead, do you think my position is prevailing in this thread? I don't! But I go ahead and slog it out with my views anyway! In the offchance that I might make someone, somewhere stop and think about the lilelihood that Israel deliberately plucked Uncle Sam's beard (in front of God and everbody!) The Israelis had achieved everything they could have hoped for - they reconquered the Sinai, they were on their way to capturing the Golan Heights, from which their countrymen had been shelled by Syrian artillery for years, and, wonder of all things.... [size=4]they captured the Old City of Jerusalem and their most holy site - the Wailing Wall[/size=4] I'm sure you remember the newsreels of Israeli paratroopers, with Uzis slung over their shoulders, praying at the last remaining vetige of King Solomons Temple! What a victory! What a prize! What consolation for all their years of praying at their Seder feats 'next year in Jerusalem'! [b]1967 was the year the Jews returned to Jerusalem![/b] Now, what could rob them of this victory? What could deprive them of the fruits of their labor? What could dash their prize to bits before their very eyes? Nothing! Their enemies were hopelessly routed! Their opponents vanquished! No one could cause them any trouble in enjoying their victory! Well, except for one... [b]Getting into a shooting war with the United States of America![/b] What conceivable reason would they have for so utterly and completely threatening their total victory, with total and ignimonouius defeat? For what? What could they possibly hope to gain? What advantages did they envision in trying to sink an insignificant warship of the only superpower in the world that [u]wasn't[/u] threatening them? Answer that satisfactorily and you may convince me that I've been wrong. Fail to answer that and you must begin to think that your position may be wrong! Eric The(AmericaFirst,IsraelNext)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 10:27:36 PM EDT
I'm not approaching this from the geopolitical angle, ETH. I was a newborn when this went down, so I wasn't on deck when the gun runs started. I didn't get to sit in on the Situation Room meetings. You said the "accident" story is the "official" policy of the US government and the "official" policy of the Israeli government. I know that the "official" story is rarely the entire story. You keep asking how, if personnel on the deck of the Liberty couldn't positively identify the aircraft that were attacking them, the personnel in the aircraft could be expected to positively identify the Liberty. Again, the USS Liberty was [b]455 feet long and traveling at about 15 knots[/b]. The Mystere was [b]46 feet long and capable of supersonic flight[/b]. Which one would logically have had the harder time identifying the other, do you think? Which one bears the greater responsibility of identifying the other, the attacking fighter/bomber or the defenseless listening ship? Regardless of what they had or hadn't been told about where any ships were or weren't going to be, they wouldn't attack a [b]clearly marked[/b] US ship of the line if they hadn't meant to. Does it take 75 minutes of gun and bombing passes, as well as torpedo boat attacks to see the big, white, freshly painted letters on the freshly painted haze grey hull? "Oh wait, Eitan, those aren't Arabic letters on that horse carrier. Why, that's not even a horse carrier! I certainly feel bad about machinegunning the lifeboats now." The pro-Israel lobby certainly hasn't lost any of its steam since 1967, has it? Israel had no more to worry about engaging in a shooting war with the US then than it does now. The jury was in on this one before the bodies were even cold. It was a lead pipe cinch.
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