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Posted: 2/15/2002 6:19:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 6:21:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:28:53 PM EDT
Of course. You can't stop a Filipino with a lil 5.56, you need at least a .308. Remember the reason for the 1911. [:D] My guess, it's the calibre, the humid jungle conditions, and the fact that we're just "Observing."
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:34:54 PM EDT
I'm gonna make an early "bullschitt" call on this deal. No M-14's. (We couldn't get rid of them fast enough in a similar enviornment.)
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:36:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Vinnie: Remember the reason for the 1911. [:D]
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Vinnie, you are correct on the .45. I had forgotten where and why that pistol came to be.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 10:15:40 PM EDT
It could be, and probably is bull, they are I am sure they are carrying their favorite M4's as allways. HOWEVER if you go to Yahoos news page and do a photo search for wire service pics from there you will find that the Philippine armed forces use the M14 and M16 interchangably. They may build them like they build M16's and .45's. I dont know why they still use them, but they do. If you look over the photos you will see there is about 1 M14 for every 5 M16s, but they are everywhere and show up in just about every shot. So it is possible that they could of borrowed them off the Philippine Army.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 10:47:21 PM EDT
Could be that an un-informed reporter ([i]whoever heard of such a thing?[/i]) made a miss quote putting in "M-14" where "M-4" should be. I cant see our forces going in there and NOT taking their own weapons.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 11:44:12 PM EDT
or maybe he just saw one guy toting a DMR rifle
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 3:13:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By madmedic: Could be that an un-informed reporter ([i]whoever heard of such a thing?[/i]) made a miss quote putting in "M-14" where "M-4" should be. I cant see our forces going in there and NOT taking their own weapons.
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The author would probably respond with...."oh..M something teen"......[thinking]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 3:37:38 AM EDT
I think the Morros and the adoption of the 45 started with a grain of truth, but has grown to the ranks of urban legend. The first problem with the story was that it is acknowledge that the Morros were high on a narcotic substance, something that would render the effects of hits with any weapon that didn't break bone or take out the CNS less than debiletating. The second was the Morrow uprising lasting a very short period of time, with the state of transport back than, I would doubt that the message to break out old 45s, get them out of a depot and send them to the PI could have occurred in the length of time the conflict lasted. Also I think possible there was a lot more missing going on than many would admit, remember that they still shot one handed bulls eye style and until the adoption of 38s were use to SA pistols. Combine these two things with the adrenaline of combat may contribute to misses, that were easier to explain as the round just didn't stop the guy. Than they really just missed.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 4:05:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: I think the Morros and the adoption of the 45 started with a grain of truth, but has grown to the ranks of urban legend. The first problem with the story was that it is acknowledge that the Morros were high on a narcotic substance, something that would render the effects of hits with any weapon that didn't break bone or take out the CNS less than debiletating. The second was the Morrow uprising lasting a very short period of time, with the state of transport back than, I would doubt that the message to break out old 45s, get them out of a depot and send them to the PI could have occurred in the length of time the conflict lasted.
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Well, they did really send SAA's to the Philippines. Also, a batch of M1878 DA Colts in .45. But .45 ACP wasnt the only extant cartridge built as a result of combat experience here. .38 Special was developed here and used in the M1905 USMC revolver, the first military K-frame Smith & Wesson, in a effort to prove the .38 still viable. The fighting lasted from Jan 1. 1899 to June 15, 1913, pleanty of time to ship things even then. Remember, Many of the State regiments that were sent early in our involvement there were still carring Trapdoors and Single Action Armies as their issue weapons. A lot of the guns just simply never went back home. They were left behind to potentially arm the Philippine Scouts. They were also available to the Regulars in a Emergency. Handguns were used a lot more in the Philippines than in later wars. We still had cavalry then, armed with Krag carbines that did not have bayonets and had to be loaded with single cartridges. Artillery, engineers, and signaleers weren't issued with anything but handguns. Handguns were often the only option to the 49in long Krag infantry rifle with its 17in long bayonet for house, cave, and trench cleaning. Have you tried to house clean with a 5foot 5in pike? Its true that the US Military developed its affinity to the shotgun in this war, but there was never enough of them and shotguns back then were even more limited in their reach than today, lots of soldiers were reluctant to give up the reach of their rifles and carbines, but still needed something for what we would now call "CQB" There were also a terrable number of terrorist attacks on US personal who went off base for R and R- much like the early days in Vietnam. Like in the later war handguns- often carried concealed in violation of orders- were the only things the soldiers had to protect themselves. The combination of these factors ment that there were FAR more instances of soldiers using handguns in a offensive, tactical manner, much like sub-machine guns in WWII but with obvioulsy greater limitations. They were not just personal defense/survival items like they became in WWII and since. The same is also true of WWI. We brought shotguns- but there were never enough of them and once it came time to consolidate for the inevitable German counter-attack they were a liability. Bombing and raiding parties frequently prefered to use handguns which were small enough and light enough to carry alongside their rifle and cargo of grenades- which could not be said about shotguns and their ammunition.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:57:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2002 8:00:37 PM EDT by Vinnie]
Seeing the post of the pics of Zamboanga, I'm inclined to believe that the author screwed up and said M14 instead of M4 probably confusing it with the M16. [img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020211/capt.1013467040.philippines_us_troops_zam107.jpg[/img] edited to borrow one of Thumbholes's pics
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:06:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2002 8:08:38 PM EDT by SF]
Have you folks considered that the "25 U.S. troops in battle gear and armed with M-14 rifles" could be correct? This is a SOCPAC exercise. The biggest proponent of the M-14 in the armed forces are the SEALs, who are also U.S. troops, sometimes fly around in Army Spec Ops Aviation MH-47s, and MIGHT be involved in this exercise? Don't conclude that they are Army just because they are riding around in Army aircraft. If we had a picture, we would know for sure. Also consider that we have given tons of M-14s out in FMS assistance to many countries, including the Phillipines. It would not be unheard of for the SF guys going in to get and carry indig weapons, since they will be teaching and training on them as well. Just my .02, YMMV. Edited to add that I believe that at least some of the personnel in that photo above are USN.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:06:51 PM EDT
The communist militias in the Philippines were given Norinco M-14's by the Chicoms. It might be one of the only wars where M-14's are used by both sides. Probably makes ammo re-supply easy. I wonder if the rebels also get the Chinese AR copies too.
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 1:51:24 AM EDT
The actual battles/incidents in which the US fought against the "Moros" was a limited (about a year plus or minus a few month) portion of a larger conflict named "the Philippine Insurrection" that occured between 1899 and 1913. The fighting with the Morros occurred around 1904-5, with scattered out breaks of violence all the way up to 1913. The Moros themselves mostly lived on the southern islands, Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago.
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 4:14:17 AM EDT
They are using M14s, someone posted some photo spreads last night showing the Phillipine troops training with them. IIRC, Slick Willy sold almost all of the military's M14s for $20/each as scrap (mainly to European nations), and then sold the tooling to Taiwan. Here's the related post, with photos: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=94827[/url] Kharn
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 4:35:18 AM EDT
So whats wrong with using the M14? Being an old fart I sort of like it [;D]
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 6:08:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ECS: So whats wrong with using the M14? Being an old fart I sort of like it [;D]
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Nothing wrong at all.....just unusual....actually fine....and in reality...there probably are some....but the reporters don`t know the difference or are simply not concerned with pointing it out......in all honesty...isn`t true that marines have designated marksmen assigned to each squad......who primarily use......m14`s?..........[argue]
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 10:01:03 AM EDT
Yup. The Marines dredged up some M14s for use as DMR's. It remains to be seen how long they hold together and whether or not the overworked armorers can keep them and the M40's going when they reportedly had much trouble just with the M40's.
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