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Posted: 2/14/2002 11:56:28 PM EDT
Here's a new development in Israel. Tank killed was not an M113 or Centurion-- it was a Merkava. Full article is on NYTimes website JERUSALEM, Feb. 14 — For the first time, Palestinian militants destroyed an Israeli tank tonight, planting a mine that punched through the tank's belly, killing at least three soldiers and lightly wounding a fourth. The tank was ripped apart as it responded to what the Israeli Army described as a coordinated attack on a settlers' convoy after it entered the Gaza Strip headed for Netzarim, an isolated Jewish settlement. A bomb had exploded beside the settlers' bus, which was bulletproof, and gunmen opened fire on the convoy. No one was injured in that attack. But as the tank rushed to the scene, it rolled over the mine, which penetrated the tank and exploded inside, the army said. "This is really warfare, in the conventional sense," said Jacob Dallal, an Israeli Army spokesman. "This is something we've never seen before from the Palestinians." The Palestinian attack followed a sweeping Israeli incursion Wednesday into three Gaza towns during which soldiers killed five Palestinians. The Salahadin Brigade, a group composed of members of Hamas and Yasir Arafat's Fatah faction, claimed responsibility for the attack on the settler convoy in a statement sent to the Reuters news agency. The group said it was retaliating for the Israeli attack. The group is the military wing of the Popular Resistance Committees, a Fatah-dominated organization in the Gaza refugee camps. The Israeli raid Wednesday was, in turn, a reponse to an attack Sunday that Israel called an escalation in the conflict: Two crude Hamas rockets, the first, were fired from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel. The army described the mine that exploded under the tank as similar to weapons used by the Lebanese group Hezbollah against Israeli forces in South Lebanon. Israel withdrew from Lebanon in May 2000. Israeli officials have expressed concern at what they describe as growing ties between Hezbollah, or Party of God, and Palestinian organizations, including Fatah. A clear threat of antitank weapons could force the Israeli military to rethink its tactics. Until now, Israeli soldiers seemed invulnerable as they moved through Palestinian-controlled territory inside armored vehicles. The attack occurred at about 9 p.m. along the road to Netzarim, a single lane of asphalt that cuts across a main north-south Gaza road at a junction that has been a main flashpoint of the 16-month conflict. The settlers' road passes through a no man's land of sandy soil gouged by tank treads. For scores of yards on either side, Palestinian orange groves have been leveled because, Israelis say, snipers were using them to hide. The tank was in that no man's land, about 60 yards south of the road, when it was blown up, the army said. "We heard an explosion and saw a blue flash in the orchard area," the bus driver told Israeli television. The bus, which had not yet reached the junction, turned back to leave Gaza. The tank was a Merkava, the Israeli-made flagship vehicle of the army. Late tonight, the army was still trying to identify the dead soldiers.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 1:28:23 AM EDT
Does this story remind anyone else of Rhodesia in the late 70's, early 80's?
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 2:37:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2002 4:32:40 PM EDT by platform389]
Maybe now they will consider rollers or plows. This won't be the last time this trick is tried, you can count on that. [IMG]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 3:53:04 AM EDT
Yes, it won't be the last time it's tried, but knowing the Israelis as well as we do, it will be the last time it's successful. Eric The(Realistic)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 4:24:39 AM EDT
Command detonated mines are a bitch when you're on the receiving end. Plows and mine rollers are slow to use and dont effect command det mines which can be planted deep.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 8:00:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Yes, it won't be the last time it's tried, but knowing the Israelis as well as we do, it will be the last time it's successful. Eric The(Realistic)Hun[>]:)]
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"The IDF doctrine of moving into Palestinian Authority areas with impunity based on it's heavy armor will now have to be reviewed". -Arieh O'Sullivan of the Jerusalem Post The last time it'll be successful, Eric? That sounds like wishful thinking on your part and not "tactical reality." Just my humble opinion. Guess we'll just have to wait and see. DaMan
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 8:10:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Beachboy: Does this story remind anyone else of Rhodesia in the late 70's, early 80's?
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More like Viet Nam 60's, early 70's! DaMan
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 8:11:28 AM EDT
Post from DaMan -
That sounds like wishful thinking on your part...
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Yes, probably so, but at least I'm wishing for the right side to prevail. How would the US military handle a situation such as this? Well don't think the IDF hasn't discussed the problem with them. And the US with them. And that's not wishful thinking! Eric The(It'sAFact,Jack)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:01:21 AM EDT
How would the US military handle a situation such as this?
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I don't know, but it would probably involve several hundred million dollars worth of technology. If the Russians ran into this problem in Chechnya, they'd probably respond by shooting any Chechen seen holding a shovel.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:33:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2002 9:35:03 AM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Yes, probably so, but at least I'm wishing for the right side to prevail. Eric The(It'sAFact,Jack)Hun[>]:)]
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I don't like fanatic religious followers of ANY faith, Jewish, Muslim, Christian and so on. That being said I personally don't subscribe to a "right/wrong side" mentality in the Israeli/Palistinian conflict. Both employ terrorist tactics, the Israeli's simply have higher tech tools to do it and thus doesn't look like traditional terrorism. As far as I'm concerned BOTH sides problems are valid from a thoeretical stand point. And BOTH sides tactics qualify as terrorism. I wouldn't expect the Israeli's to pack up and leave or roll over, that's for sure. I also wouldn't expect the Palistinians to stop killing Isreali's either. Gotta fight any way you can.....it's life or death for BOTH sides.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:57:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: I don't like fanatic religious followers of ANY faith, Jewish, Muslim, Christian and so on. That being said I personally don't subscribe to a "right/wrong side" mentality in the Israeli/Palistinian conflict. Both employ terrorist tactics, the Israeli's simply have higher tech tools to do it and thus doesn't look like traditional terrorism. As far as I'm concerned BOTH sides problems are valid from a thoeretical stand point. And BOTH sides tactics qualify as terrorism. I wouldn't expect the Israeli's to pack up and leave or roll over, that's for sure. I also wouldn't expect the Palistinians to stop killing Isreali's either. Gotta fight any way you can.....it's life or death for BOTH sides.
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Well said, M4! DaMan
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 10:01:54 AM EDT
I choose my side. Shalom! [:|]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 10:56:37 AM EDT
Not be anti-semitic, the Jews have had a tough time in the world, but I usually root for the underdogs, even though the Palestinians are jsut as untrustworthy and obnoxious. It's totally a no-win situation. So I suggest only that the US stop funding Isreael and then let's see what happens. Consider what it would be like if the government dropped the iron curtain here in the US--we'd be fighting tanks with firebombs and rocks. Pay attention, you may see this material again.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 2:43:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2002 2:46:09 PM EDT by NH2112]
Originally Posted By DnPRK: Command detonated mines are a bitch when you're on the receiving end. Plows and mine rollers are slow to use and dont effect command det mines which can be planted deep.
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During Desert Storm I remember seeing M1s with mine plows tearing across country faster than my unit's SPLLs could go, and nothing stopped them - they went through asphalt or concrete roads as easily as they went through sand. They looked like they went down at least a foot, as well. Obviously a BIG command-detonated mine could raise hell with a foot or more of dirt between it and the tank, but then you run into the logistics problems of planting a lot of big mines. Planting fewer of them them at obvious points is one solution, but what's obvious to the mine-planter should also be obvious to the tank platoon leader. Besides, MICLIC will take care of deep mines, and I know the Israelis can build them with no problems.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 3:23:06 PM EDT
After reading some of the accounts of Palestenian refugee camps and the general state of unemployment and despair, something has to give. I would expect the Israelis to try to starve the Palestenians of warmaking material; They may be able to do a good job of this. Did you guys notice those Saggar ATGMs in that purported shipment of arms that Israel intercepted? I hear the Saggar is not too accurate, but at some point you get lucky. I am frankly suprised that the Palestenians haven't been more successful at shooting up tanks or aircraft. This won't be the last time. The only thing that is going to solve the problem is massive amounts of aid, and massive numbers of peacekeepers. I would expect a good number of peacekeepers to die. I don't see the Palestenians and Israelis solving this problem on their own. It's only the stranglehold that one side (Israel) possesses that has prevented this thing from being a lot worse than it is. I wish both sides peace, but I don't know how it will come about.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 4:30:22 PM EDT
[url]http://www.calguard.ca.gov/132eng/Equipment/miclic.htm[/url]
Besides, MICLIC will take care of deep mines, and I know the Israelis can build them with no problems.
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Yep, wonder what the media would make of the above detonation in the Palestinian held areas? [IMG]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/aahmed/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 7:09:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Yes, it won't be the last time it's tried, but knowing the Israelis as well as we do, it will be the last time it's successful. Eric The(Realistic)Hun[>]:)]
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"The balance of power has so far remained to Israel's advantage. Since the outbreak of fighting 922 Palestinians have died compared with 216 Israelis. This has been due largely to the overwhelming Israeli military advantage and the Palestinians' limited operational capabilites. But that calculus may now be changing". DaMan
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 7:35:49 PM EDT
Post from M4 -
I don't like fanatic religious followers of ANY faith, Jewish, Muslim, Christian and so on.
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So who are the religious fanatics in this fight? The folks who dance on Sept 11, or the folks who grieve on Sept 11?
That being said I personally don't subscribe to a "right/wrong side" mentality in the Israeli/Palistinian conflict. Both employ terrorist tactics, the Israeli's simply have higher tech tools to do it and thus doesn't look like traditional terrorism.
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Sort of like the way the United States uses (and will continue to use) high tech tools against its enemies. So our carpet bombing and killing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan doesn't look like traditional terrorism when viewed from [u]your[/u] lofty perch? I got news for you, there's a whole lotta folks in the world who think that the United States qualifies as a terrorist nation! Do you think the US should turn tail and run? Nope? Well neither do the Israelis! Are we recklessly killing civilian Afghanis? No? Well, check out this website, and see the other side of the argument![url]http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm[/url] So how does that go again? Let me paraphrase your statement, with a few minor changes:
That being said I personally don't subscribe to a "right/wrong side" mentality in the United States/Taliban-Al Qaida conflict. Both employ terrorist tactics, the Americans simply have higher tech tools to do it and thus doesn't look like traditional terrorism.
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Pure blasphemy, right? Eric The(IKnewYou'dAgree)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 8:30:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Do you think the US should turn tail and run? Nope? Well neither do the Israelis!
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Uh.... I don't think the US is running! And the US will continue to protect Israel. BUT...., don't YOU think the Israelis should start paying their own way!????? Are they a "beggar state?" DaMan
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 8:41:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2002 8:46:48 PM EDT by M4]
Eric, Try not to get too hysterical, k? Let me clear up a few things that you either didn't understand, emotionally took way out of context or just needed to vent based on some other unrelated short coming in your life at the moment. More likey though, it's just your way, the little mans way of attempting to make a point, regardless of how they come across in the process. Politics at any cost. Item #1: As I said before, I don't like fanatic religious followers of ANY faith. Jewish, Islamic, Christian or ANY other. They ALL make me sick. Don't like that? Get over it. Your reference to Sept.11th is unrelated to the long fought conflict between the Israeli's and Palisinians, as well as to this thread which has [u]nothing[/u] to do with the attack on the WTC. I don't need to explain my position on the events of the 11th to you or anyone else. If you had the slightest inclination as to who I am you'd realize just how stupid your transparent implication actually is. Frankly, to even imply what you did makes me sick, particularly since someone selected someone of your ilk to represent AR15.com. Still with me? I doubt it, but I'll continue anyway. Item #2: Your "lofty porch" comment simply shows me exactly what a nit wit you come across as. Again, you attempt to make some unrelatable connection between the U.S. actions in Afghanistan and the age old Isreali/Palistinian conflict to push your own politics regarding Israel on to the table. And as stated in "Item #1", you attempt to make some insinuation that my statements contain some moronic underlying pro-Sept.11th/pro-terrorist message. Trying to clarify exactly why that is as stupid as it is, I'm affraid, would be WAY over your head. Your own words in your inflamatory post to me is all I need to arrive at that obvious conclusion. Everyones got a big mouth, when it's a keyboard doing the talking. Unfortunately for you an internet account doesn't boost your IQ one stitch. Any rational person would never have read what you apparently did from my post. It wasn't an attack, and it wasn't "pro" anyone. It had nothing what so ever to do with the WTC bombing, and was equally balanced between the two sides that this thread was originally intended to discuss. It's one thing to stray off topic, but it's anothing thing entirely to make the implications that you have made. Get over yourself, and get over inserting your personal political agenda in a manner that suggests something inscrupulous of other members. P.S.- Forgive me for not clicking on your hyperlink [url]www.ericsagenda.com[/url]. Based on what you bothered to type yourself, I have no reason to believe that your source of information would be any more related to the thread at hand than your comments were.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 8:55:31 PM EDT
We, as a country are already in this war. And we are on the side of Israel. Any of you who doubt this should review 9/11 One can argue over whether we started the fight, or whether the Muslims started it, but there really is no question that the sides have been drawn. The trouble over there is just a flashpoint in a much larger war.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:03:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2002 9:11:51 PM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By BillofRights: We, as a country are already in this war. And we are on the side of Israel. Any of you who doubt this should review 9/11 One can argue over whether we started the fight, or whether the Muslims started it, but there really is no question that the sides have been drawn. The trouble over there is just a flashpoint in a much larger war.
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I don't remember any Palistinians involved with the attack on the WTC. I'm not suggesting that they were upset over it, but they didn't participate as far as I know. We support a country that does everything in their power to crush them as a people, what do you really expect them to think about us? What do you think about countries that support groups who try to attack us? Like them? Didn't think so, and the Palistinians don't like us for the very same reason. The Israeli/Palistinian discussion can historically and reasonable be discussed from within those two sides alone. Especially, again, considering the subject of this thread. Yeah, there are plenty of ways to connect all sorts of countries to that discussion, but there is a clear debate to be made from within those two sides alone as well. That was where my comments come from. P.S.- Personally, I'd have rephrased your statement quoted above as..."The reason we are in this war is because we have sided with Israel." To no benefit to us, at least no benefit we couldn't easily aquire on our own without the constant headache being alligned with them endlessly provides us with.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 10:20:12 PM EDT
It could have been anything up to a 500lb aircraft bomb. Not a whole lot you can do about them, except keep the roads under constant survailance so they dont have time to plant something that big. We had the same problems in Vietnam, never did find a solution.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 3:46:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from DaMan -
That sounds like wishful thinking on your part...
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"Yes, probably so, but at least I'm wishing for the right side to prevail." Wow! I'd never guessed you were cheering for the Palestinians, Eric.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 3:57:47 AM EDT
Post from M4 -
We support a country that does everything in their power to crush them as a people, what do you really expect them to think about us?
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First off, the Israelis don't do [u]everything[/u] to crush them as a people. If they did, the Palestinians would be history! Second, the United States supports their miserable 'Palestinian Authority' to the tune of several hundreds of millions of dollars a year. So, I would say 'Shut the F up' to Palestinians who complain about the US! Eric The(USIsTheHonestBrokerHere)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 4:04:33 AM EDT
Post from Kar98 -
Wow! I'd never guessed you were cheering for the Palestinians, Eric.
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Hmmm, guess again! I simply on the same side that President Bush, Vice-President Cheney, NSA Condolezza Rice, and every American President since Harry S. Truman has been on since 1948! As well as the overwhelming majority of the American People! [b]But, not to worry, your side is adequately supported as well![/b] Just not by people who speak English, elect their leaders by popular vote, or feel [u]too[/u] badly about Sept 11th! Eric The(Isn't[b]That[/b]Right?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 4:15:02 AM EDT
Whatever. I still think it's pretty ironic that Israel should be the reincarnation of the 3rd Reich IN EVERY ASPECT. 2nd Class Citizens? yep camps for them? ditto ghettos for the subhumans? ditto specially marked passports for said subhumans? ditto subhumans suspected of having relations to criminals can be killed without a trial? ditto a people "chosen" to terrorize and dominate an entire region? ditto a state supported and financed by the US? ditto the USA realizing they're supporting a genocidal terrorist regime, turning around and crushing said regime....soon on a theater near you.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 4:33:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaMan: BUT...., don't YOU think the Israelis should start paying their own way!????? Are they a "beggar state?" DaMan
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I would certainly say that having their people blown up in shopping malls and never being 100% certain that you or your loved ones will come home at night can be considered "paying your own way." Yes, we still give them a lot of money and some people are upset about that - but should we have just stopped at the same time the Soviets stopped supporting the Arab countries? The Israelis still have a lot of enemies - enemies who don't want to live peacefully side-by-side with the Israelis, the way they demand the Israelis do with the Palestinians. At least the Israelis [b]attempted[/b] to do this with the Palestinians, who (of course), reciprocated by demanding more and continuing to blow people and things up. Besides, [u]when[/u] we get involved in another shooting war in SWA, without the benefit of a Coalition, it'll be handy to have the Israelis to keep our 1991 Arab/Muslim allies off our backs - the Arabs won't be able to attack us from behind for fear of the Israeli armored corps rolling in behind [b]them[/b]. Plus, odds are we won't be flying out of Saudi Arabia, and Turkey might not let us use bases there, either - Israeli air bases would probably be the closest ones we'd get.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:32:09 AM EDT
Post from M4 -
Eric, Try not to get too hysterical, k?
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I'll try not to, but this is serious stuff!
Let me clear up a few things that you either didn't understand, emotionally took way out of context or just needed to vent based on some other unrelated short coming in your life at the moment.
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Nope, cool and calm, here. How are you?
More likely though, it's just your way, the little mans way of attempting to make a point, regardless of how they come across in the process. Politics at any cost.
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If there's anything I'm not, it's a 'little man.' But, pray continue.
Item #1: As I said before, I don't like fanatic religious followers of ANY faith. Jewish, Islamic, Christian or ANY other. They ALL make me sick. Don't like that? Get over it.
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I'm over it. But I'm sorry to hear you're sick! Get well soon!
Your reference to Sept.11th is unrelated to the long fought conflict between the Israeli's and Palestinians, as well as to this thread which has nothing to do with the attack on the WTC.
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Now I find your assertion very strange, indeed. Many, many people have attempted to link the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon precisely to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict! [b][u]Including Osama Bin Laden, himself![/u][/b] But if [u]you[/u] have better sources....
I don't need to explain my position on the events of the 11th to you or anyone else. If you had the slightest inclination as to who I am you'd realize just how stupid your transparent implication actually is.
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Sorry, Sir, I just inquired as to whom you thought were the religious fanatics in the fight - I gave you a simple choice. Did you ever make a decision?
Frankly, to even imply what you did makes me sick, particularly since someone selected someone of your ilk to represent AR15.com. Still with me? I doubt it, but I'll continue anyway.
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I know precisely what I implied, but you must have inferred something totally uncalled for. The two sides in this conflict are not morally the same! They have never been morally the same and they never will be morally the same! And for anyone with a couple of brain cells to rub together to say they are the same,...well, let's just say the ball is in your court to explain how they are the same!
Item #2: Your "lofty porch" comment simply shows me exactly what a nit wit you come across as. Again, you attempt to make some unrelatable connection between the U.S. actions in Afghanistan and the age old Isreali/Palistinian conflict to push your own politics regarding Israel on to the table.
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That's 'perch', BTW. And I asked you whether the same thing that you have said about Israel could likewise be said about the US in its handling of the War on Terror. - continued -
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:33:20 AM EDT
I [u]wanted[/u] you to say that, [b]'when it comes to matters of grave national security, just about anything the United States does is perfectly permissible, in my view!'[/b] [b]But you didn't.[/b] I even provided you with an abominable website that actually accuses the US of deliberately or callously destroying the lives of innocent Afghan civilians. I wanted you to object to that nonsense and tell us all that the US is on the 'right side' in this conflict, and that such casualties (sometimes referred to as 'collateral damage') are to be expected in the defense of our country. Always have been, always will be. [b]But you didn't.[/b] What you did was to bitch about [b]me[/b]! Next time, address the issues, then you can bitch about me all you want! I ain't gonna do a damn thing about anything you say about me after that!
And as stated in "Item #1", you attempt to make some insinuation that my statements contain some moronic underlying pro-Sept.11th/pro-terrorist message.
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I'm provoking you to think about what you said. How the very same thing you might say in defense of US military actions in Afghanistan, could likewise, with the same degree of accuracy, be said in defense of Israeli actions in Gaza and on the West Bank! But, obviously, to no avail!
Trying to clarify exactly why that is as stupid as it is, I'm affraid, would be WAY over your head.
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Try it! You may be surprised. Shocked, even!
Your own words in your inflamatory post to me is all I need to arrive at that obvious conclusion. Everyones got a big mouth, when it's a keyboard doing the talking.
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'Inflammatory' to you, 'inquisitive' to me. BTW, I have a pretty big mouth in real life, as well! Not just on anonymous keyboards!
Unfortunately for you an internet account doesn't boost your IQ one stitch.
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IQs are not something you can 'boost', but the sum of knowledge that is available for use with your God-given IQ, [u]can[/u] be enlarged! Well, at any rate, for some folks, that's true.
Any rational person would never have read what you apparently did from my post. It wasn't an attack, and it wasn't "pro" anyone. It had nothing what so ever to do with the WTC bombing, and was equally balanced between the two sides that this thread was originally intended to discuss.
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That, Sir, is precisely what I was getting at - it was this 'pean of moral equivalency' that I asked you about. If there are no 'good guys' in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (according to you), then is it also true that there are no 'good guys' in the US-Taliban/Al Qaeda conflict (according to some, whose website I posted)?
It's one thing to stray off topic, but it's anothing thing entirely to make the implications that you have made.
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Talk about straying off topic. After reading your entire post I still have no idea how you compare the US response to terrorism with the Israeli response to terrorism! - continued -
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:33:53 AM EDT
You have every right to correct any false implications that I may have made concerning your attitude towards the entire Middle East, but you simply haven'e addressed that question!
Get over yourself, and get over inserting your personal political agenda in a manner that suggests something inscrupulous of other members.
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I'm quite done being 'over myself.' I have a lot of personal political agendas that I will continue to flog in this world. Suggesting that you are somehow 'unscrupulous' is simply not on my agenda. 'Unresponsive', maybe.
P.S.- Forgive me for not clicking on your hyperlink www.ericsagenda.com. Based on what you bothered to type yourself, I have no reason to believe that your source of information would be any more related to the thread at hand than your comments were.
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Nor, alas, in my humble opinion, are yours. BTW, my hyperlink is [url]www.israelueberalles.com[/url], I thought you knew! Eric The(Agenda-Filled)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:34:49 AM EDT
On January 5, IDF fire from the Beit Haggai settlement hit eighteen-year-old Ahlam al-Jabali and her eighteen-year-old sister-in-law, Arij al-Jabali, as the two were seeking shelter in the stairwell of their home. A single bullet penetrated the body of Arij al-Jabali, who was killed in the incident, and lodged in the body of Ahlam al-Jabali, who recovered. According to the family, the IDF was responding to fireworks fired at Beit Haggai from the family's neighborhood. Arij al-Jabali was expecting to get engaged on the day of her death. On January 2, IDF gunfire wounded thirty-year-old Samir Abu Shakhdam as he was walking home from work in a Palestinian area bordering on the Israeli-controlled Tel Rumeida settlement. Earlier in the day, two IDF soldiers guarding the Tel Rumeida settlement had been wounded by Palestinian gunfire. An ambulance which came to evacuate Abu Shakhdam evacuated another seven wounded civilians from the same neighborhood. On January 1, IDF soldiers shot and severely injured Jadallah al-Jabiri in the center of Hebron, nearly severing his foot. The IDF has admitted that its soldiers acted wrongly in the incident which was filmed by an Associated Press cameraman, and has apologized for the incident. On December 31, IDF fire into the Haret al-Sheikh neighborhood of Hebron injured eighteen-year-old Arit al-Qawasma in her bedroom, injuring her in the right shoulder and face. As she was being evacuated from the house, renewed IDF fire killed eleven-year-old Muath Abu Hadwan, who had come to watch the evacuation, and wounded another boy. During the same period, IDF fire injured thirteen-year-old Abir Salameh as she went to feed her chickens on the roof of her house, injuring her in the stomach. On November 16, IDF soldiers fatally shot thirty-one-year-old Yusuf Abu Awad near a checkpoint in Beit Umar. According to eyewitnesses, soldiers asked Abu Awad to stop at the checkpoint, and then began throwing stones at his car. When Abu Awad protested the stone throwing, a soldier came up to him and pointed his gun at his chest. Abu Awad attempted to push the gun away from his chest, and was shot in the face by the soldier. The IDF is reportedly investigating the killing. At about 4 p.m. on November 11, IDF fire from the Shalala street position fired on Munib Abu Munshar as he was unloading building materials from his truck, killing him instantly. There were no clashes taking place at the time, although Palestinian youth had clashed with IDF soldiers at the position earlier in the day. On October 23, IDF fire killed fifty-seven-year-old Abdul Aziz Abu Snainah as he went to his front room to answer a phone call during a period of heavy IDF fire. The IDF shot at Abu Snainah's brother in the street as he tried to come to the assistance of his brother. Human Rights Watch researchers counted more than sixty medium caliber bullet scars on the home, as well as dozens of impact craters on nearby homes and the street.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:35:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2002 5:43:34 AM EDT by M4]
(cont.) On October 18, IDF soldiers positioned in the Beit Haggai settlement shot thirty-eight-year-old Ibrahim Abu Turki as he rode his donkey from his home village of Kilkas past the settlement. Abu Turki remains in critical condition and was paralyzed by the gunshot wound. At about 10 p.m. on October 13, IDF soldiers shot twenty-two-year-old Shadi al-Wawi, a university student, as he was sitting on the roof of his relative's home in the al-Fawar refugee camp. Palestinian youth were clashing with IDF soldiers located about 150 meters away from the home, but al-Wawi and his family did not participate in the violence. IDF soldiers fired several shots at the family as they tried to rescue al-Wawi, and threatened a medical team which tried to reach al-Wawi. An ambulance was forced to take an alternative route, taking over one hour to reach the hospital. Al-Wawi died on route to the hospital. On October 9, 2000, IDF fire severely injured twenty-eight-year-old Shihab Sharif as he was walking home in the Bab al-Zawiah neighborhood after visiting a cousin at about 10:15 p.m. Sherif was hit by bullets in his left side, his back, and his right elbow. On the same day, IDF fire on the Haret al-Sheikh neighborhood injured twenty-eight year old Fatina Fakhoury, a mother of four, in the face, and a bullet fragment also hit her seven-day-old baby in her arms. ------------------------------------- The list goes on and on.....BUT the Israeli's aren't terrorist though.....right? Killing during combat or self defense is one thing. Killing innocent people by specifically targeting innocent people is what we call terrorism. It's as simple as that. Both sides wage a terrorist war. To rationalize that Isreal is somehow above the terrorist label simply because our government supports them is rediculous.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:43:09 AM EDT
Post from Kar98 -
the USA realizing they're supporting a genocidal terrorist regime, turning around and crushing said regime....soon on a theater near you.
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Well, the rest of your post was tripe (Arabs vote in Israeli elections, BTW, and have quite a few members in the [i]Knesset[/i] - Do you remember [u]any[/u] Jews in the [i]Reichstag[/i]? But there will [u]never[/u] be a day that the United States will turn around and crush Israel! Of that, you can be well assured! The U.S.-Israel relationship is based on the twin pillars of shared values and mutual interests. Given this commonality of interests and beliefs, it should not be surprising that support for Israel is one of the most pronounced and consistent foreign policy values of the American people. Eric The(Truthful)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:48:55 AM EDT
Because a millions of people believe something foolish doesn't mean it's no longer foolish. Whether it's a part of a great nations foreign policy, or fanatical religions killing in the defense of "god". Yeah, that holds true for America as well. Our blind support of Israel , in my opinion, is the single greatest foreign policy blunder our great nation has ever made.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 5:51:27 AM EDT
M4, M4, my son, what makes you think our support of Israel is [u]blind[/u]? How can it be that a generation of American Presidents, a generation of American Congresses, a generation of American People have gotten it so wrong? For so long? But you have it right? Eric The(RethinkYourPosition)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:02:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Yes, it won't be the last time it's tried, but knowing the Israelis as well as we do, it will be the last time it's successful. Eric The(Realistic)Hun[>]:)]
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I beg to differ. IF they have more of these mines, then I think they will use them in other ambushings with success. Don't we all know that the element of surprise is everything? Considering there are no marked mine fields and no real defined battlefield, it'd be hard for the Israelis to figure out when they were going to be hit. Sounds like a big step up in the war over there!
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:03:32 AM EDT
Thank you M4 for your citation of Israel's terrorist attacks on the Palestinians! It's amazing that there are any Palestinians left for Israel to murder! Now will you kindly address the accusations of terrorism by the United States raised in the website that I directed you to in the above post:[url] http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm[/url] The United States doesn't consider its actions to be terrorism, neither does Isreal consider theirs! So tell me, M4, why hasn't the US cut its ties to Israel? And like the US, when IDF soldiers err, there is an investigation. We're still waiting on those Palestinian investigations to begin! Eric The(ButDon'tHoldYourBreath)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:05:10 AM EDT
Give it up, Eric. Some people hate Israel, period. They try to hide under alleged "facts" and "truths". Why bother debating? No one's mind will be changed, yours or theirs. They can't see the difference in blowing up restaurants and nightclubs and retaliation for the same. Many "innocents" supposedly killed by the Israeli's have been in fact armed combatants. The incident with the photos of the father and son caught in a crossfire and the little boy supposedly being killed by Israeli fire when it was in fact Palestinian fire has never been corrected in the media after all their hoopla about it and some who know the truth of that still don't accept it. I would not bother any more were I you. Never mind that Israel has gun laws that most of wish we had here. I've seen reports where Israeli's pick up soldiers and civilians carrying M16's and no one gets freaked out. I wish we had that attitude here.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:10:10 AM EDT
I know, [b]LARRYG[/b], it does appear hopeless at times, but I am a fool for Israel![:D] I just can't imagine how anyone can avoid seeing the truth behind all this garbage! Isn't it amazing that the Palestinians put their own children in harm's way, fully expecting them to be injured, or worse, and then hide behind their apologists in the US when it happens! Would we put up with the same kind of domestic terrorism that we ask Israel to accept on a daily basis? Hell, No! Eric The(IsraelSaysTheSame!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:12:18 AM EDT
BFD They were able to dig a deep enough hole to heap simtex into. Yawn – total non story Let’s talk about how katusha rockets seem to explode mid-flight anymore :D The palis have had to resort to estis rockets with 1/4 kg payloads. (the equivalent of fireworks)
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:19:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: (cont.) On October 18, IDF soldiers positioned in the Beit Haggai settlement shot thirty-eight-year-old Ibrahim Abu Turki as he rode his donkey from his home village of Kilkas past the settlement. Abu Turki remains in critical condition and was paralyzed by the gunshot wound. At about 10 p.m. on October 13, IDF soldiers shot twenty-two-year-old Shadi al-Wawi, a university student, as he was sitting on the roof of his relative's home in the al-Fawar refugee camp. Palestinian youth were clashing with IDF soldiers located about 150 meters away from the home, but al-Wawi and his family did not participate in the violence. IDF soldiers fired several shots at the family as they tried to rescue al-Wawi, and threatened a medical team which tried to reach al-Wawi. An ambulance was forced to take an alternative route, taking over one hour to reach the hospital. Al-Wawi died on route to the hospital. On October 9, 2000, IDF fire severely injured twenty-eight-year-old Shihab Sharif as he was walking home in the Bab al-Zawiah neighborhood after visiting a cousin at about 10:15 p.m. Sherif was hit by bullets in his left side, his back, and his right elbow. On the same day, IDF fire on the Haret al-Sheikh neighborhood injured twenty-eight year old Fatina Fakhoury, a mother of four, in the face, and a bullet fragment also hit her seven-day-old baby in her arms. ------------------------------------- The list goes on and on.....BUT the Israeli's aren't terrorist though.....right? Killing during combat or self defense is one thing. Killing innocent people by specifically targeting innocent people is what we call terrorism. It's as simple as that. Both sides wage a terrorist war. To rationalize that Isreal is somehow above the terrorist label simply because our government supports them is rediculous.
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What were all of these IDF guys shooting at? Do you expect otherwise when conducting MOUT in towns where people still live?
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:28:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2002 6:37:15 AM EDT by DaMan]
Originally Posted By NH2112: .... Yes, we still give them a lot of money and some people are upset about that....... The Israelis still have a lot of enemies .... Besides, [u]when[/u] we get involved in another shooting war in SWA, without the benefit of a Coalition, it'll be handy to have the Israelis to keep our 1991 Arab/Muslim allies off our backs ....... Chances are we won't be flying out of Saudi Arabia, and Turkey might not let us use bases there, either ............
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[b]YES[/b], we give Israel a lot of money because they've made a lot of enemies! Israel would like to make [b]THEIR[/b] enemies...[b]OURS[/b]! [b]NO[/b], the US doesn't need Israel meddling in any conflict with Iraq! That [b]WOULD[/b] upset our Muslim allies in the region! But it [b]WOULD[/b] make all of Israel's enemies .... [b]OURS[/b]! We just [b]KNOW[/b] Israel wouldn't want to cause us any problems like that! [b]DON'T WE[/b]???!! [:P] There will be [b]NO[/b] problems using Saudi airbases (unless Israel meddles in the conflict). There will also be no problems with Turkish air bases (unless the US plan would allow the formation of a Kurdish state on Turkey's border). DaMan
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:40:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Give it up, Eric. Some people hate Israel, period. They try to hide under alleged "facts" and "truths". Why bother debating?
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Just [b]hate[/b] debating facts and truth, don't you, Larry? [:P] DaMan
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:41:56 AM EDT
[size=6]FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST![/size=6] If those fuckin' pussies over there are so bad ass how come the Israeli's keep kickin their Goddamned asses! Let's not forget it was those fuckfaces who bombed us! We should move the Israeli's out of there and turn that entire place to GLASS! Then give the Israeli's Afganistan. That's my two cent's!
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:35:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2002 7:39:28 AM EDT by DaMan]
Originally Posted By Kar98: I still think it's pretty ironic that Israel should be the reincarnation of the 3rd Reich IN EVERY ASPECT.
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Speaking of [b]irony[/b] check out this article on the International Herald Tribune online. It's on the Feb 16 (current) page. The headline is: "Israeli Army suffers pair of sharp blows". It tells about the Merkava incident. But more importantly, it tells how an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel was killed by a wall that fell on him while the Israelis were bulldozing a Palestinian's house. Now [b]THAT[/b] is [b]IRONY[/b]! Might also qualify for the "Darwin Award"! DaMan
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:38:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaMan:
Originally Posted By Kar98: Whatever. I still think it's pretty ironic that Israel should be the reincarnation of the 3rd Reich IN EVERY ASPECT.
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Speaking of [b]irony[/b] check out this article on the International Herald Tribune online. It's on the Feb 16 (current) page. The headline is: "Israli Army suffers pair of sharp blows". It tells about the Merkava incident. But more importantly, it tells how an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel was killed by a wall that fell on him while the Israelis were bulldozing a Palestinian's house. Now [b]THAT[/b] is [b]IRONY[/b]! Might also qualify for the "Darwin Award"! DaMan
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Naww, that's what one calls "instant karma".
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:54:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By DaMan: Speaking of [b]irony[/b] check out this article on the International Herald Tribune online. It's on the Feb 16 (current) page. The headline is: "Israeli Army suffers pair of sharp blows". It tells about the Merkava incident. But more importantly, it tells how an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel was killed by a wall that fell on him while the Israelis were bulldozing a Palestinian's house. Now [b]THAT[/b] is [b]IRONY[/b]! Might also qualify for the "Darwin Award"! DaMan
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Naww, that's what one calls "instant karma".
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I couldn't believe it when I read it! Karma is indeed, [b]A BITCH[/b]! This LTC Weiss was the [b]Commander[/b] of the IDF's elite undercover "[b]Duvdevan[/b] commando unit! DaMan
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:19:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from M4 -
I don't like fanatic religious followers .
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So who are the religious fanatics in this fight? The folks who dance on Sept 11, or the folks who grieve on Sept 11?
That being said I personally don't subscribe to a "right/wrong side" mentality in the Israeli/Palistinian conflict. Both employ terrorist tactics, the Israeli's simply have higher tech tools to do it and thus doesn't look like traditional terrorism.
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Sort of like the way the United States uses (and will continue to use) high tech tools against its enemies. So our carpet bombing and killing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan doesn't look like traditional terrorism when viewed from [u]your[/u] lofty perch? I got news for you, there's a whole lotta folks in the world who think that the United States qualifies as a terrorist nation! Do you think the US should turn tail and run? Nope? Well neither do the Israelis! Are we recklessly killing civilian Afghanis? No? Well, check out this website, and see the other side of the argument![url]http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm[/url] So how does that go again? Let me paraphrase your statement, with a few minor changes:
That being said I personally don't subscribe to a "right/wrong side" mentality in the United States/Taliban-Al Qaida conflict. Both employ terrorist tactics, the Americans simply have higher tech tools to do it and thus doesn't look like traditional terrorism.
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Pure blasphemy, right? Eric The(IKnewYou'dAgree)Hun[>]:)]
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I can't help but wonder Eric, if you were a goatherder in Afghanistan, and it was YOUR daughter & grand kids bombed, if you would call it terrorism or "collateral Damage". Apparently we have already killed more innocents than were killed on 9/11.......
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:22:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from Kar98 -
the USA realizing they're supporting a genocidal terrorist regime, turning around and crushing said regime....soon on a theater near you.
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Well, the rest of your post was tripe (Arabs vote in Israeli elections, BTW, and have quite a few members in the [i]Knesset[/i] - Do you remember [u]any[/u] Jews in the [i]Reichstag[/i]? But there will [u]never[/u] be a day that the United States will turn around and crush Israel! Of that, you can be well assured! The U.S.-Israel relationship is based on the twin pillars of shared values and mutual interests. Given this commonality of interests and beliefs, it should not be surprising that support for Israel is one of the most pronounced and consistent foreign policy values of the American people. Eric The(Truthful)Hun[>]:)]
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"Shared values?" Mutual interests?"........OH, I getcha, you mean world socialism!!!
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:33:33 AM EDT
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