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Posted: 2/5/2002 1:19:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2002 1:23:37 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
[url]http://www.shotshowreports.com/2002pg2.html[/url]
SMITH & WESSON - I want to hit this one first because of the way that I feel about S&W, the ‘agreement’, and actions that I have taken that have been a result of those feelings. I don’t think that it is a secret to anyone that I have fully supported the boycott of S&W. I have not purchased any new S&W products since April of 2000 and have strongly urged others to follow suit. The boycott has been nothing short of a total and complete success. For me the boycott is over and I can now urge everyone else to do the same, this is why: I had a LONG discussion today with Paul Pluff of S&W. Paul has been the liaison between S&W and the lawyers for S&W throughout this process. He has learned much and how things worked. Basically what Ed Schultz did was a HUGE mistake. (DUH Jeff, you are suppose to give us NEW information) As we all know, the boycott was so successful that the British owners had to sell S&W for a huge loss. Unfortunately the deal had been done. Now this is what S&W has done. What we know as ‘the agreement’ was in reality an ‘agreement to agree’. It was never finalized as it needed a signature from a judge for a ‘consent decree’. S&W would not agree to the consent decree. They went to AG Ashcroft to inform him of their opinion, Ashcroft agreed and would not ask a judge to sign it. The AG’s office even released a statement and it was carried in the WSJ. S&W DID go to the AG, did ask to be released from the agreement, the AG issued a statement saying that they would not enforce it nor seek a judges signature to force enforcement. -cont-
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Link Posted: 2/5/2002 1:20:01 PM EDT
-cont-
Unfortunately, due to the actions of Ed Schultz, S&W cannot now use this information in any ad campaign, as much as they would like to, because it would work against them. S&W has completed the discovery phase of other cases and have even more pending. One of these is the famous agreement with the city of Boston, and there are about 10 others. Were S&W to start jumping for joy about getting out of the deal with the feds, then the anti-gunners in the dozen other still pending cases could use that action to illustrate in court that S&W had the opportunity to ‘do the right thing’, but backed out of it knowing that it was the right thing to do. It must be shown in all the remaining cases that S&W is doing the right thing and that the things that the anti’s are asking for in these cases are completely unreasonable and could easily lead the company to collapse either due to financial upset or by requiring things to be done that are beyond the limits of current technology. These lawsuits have actually had a tremendously positive effect for our side on many of the lawmakers around the country. The reason for this is that our side gets to tell its’ side of the story. Too many times all we see or hear are a bunch of anti’s screaming how bad guns are. The politicians watch the same TV news we do, but these suits have forced them to hear the opposing viewpoint, OURS. As a result many of them have been swayed to our way of thinking. This has been a great educational experience for them. The fact that the court cases have been overwhelmingly come down in our favor had not hurt our position either. If the judges are throwing out cases against the gun industry, then there just might be something to the argument that they have been hearing. Another thing that has helped were the events of 9/11 last year. As tragic as it was, it has helped the general publics perception of gun owners simply because there have been so many first time buyers since then. The ranks of gun owners have swelled and they have gained an understanding of what we have known for a long time. S&W knows it was a mistake and they are actively seeking to have the agreements dismantled, without giving the other side ammunition. You will probably see more information on this topic over the course of this year as S&W battles on. There is more specific information that I have, but I cannot go into detail as it could damage some of the work that is currently going on in this area and I sure don’t want to be the cause of that. What you do is up to you, but knowing this I will happily support S&W and urge everyone else to do the same.
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Link Posted: 2/5/2002 1:29:37 PM EDT
Not until the agreement is gone, and they have to say it's gone.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 1:30:16 PM EDT
It is my understanding that Smith & Wesson is now back in American hands for 100%. They weaseled during the Klinton period, but without the brits to influence I think the boycot should be lifted. Errors were made, grave errors. Let's hope they learned from them. Let's hope that S&W see that industry has no business in politics. If they don't your S&W revolver might become a real collectors item. For now I say lift the boycot. Kuiper
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 1:30:28 PM EDT
I say we keep the boycot in place. Other manufacturers will be less likely to make the same "mistake" if S&W pays sufficiently. Personally, I think Colt and Ruger have gotten off easy, but I bet they are much more aware of the consequences of their actions, especially when they look at S&W's plight. Let the S&W employees buy the company back, like Harley Davidson did years ago, and then issue a statement that they will never repeat their mistake, and THEN I'll go right out and buy their nicest piece, whether I need it or not.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:00:56 PM EDT
S&W can [img]www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/kiss.gif[/img][moon] so can colt and ruger for that matter. [b]DONT SUPPORT SELLOUTS !!![/b]
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:01:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2002 2:07:54 PM EDT by Dolomite]
In my considered and well thought out opinion, until they print full page ads in all the gun rags saying: "We fucked up - but it won't happen again!" they can languish away in pain. I am [i]sooo[/i] sick and tired of the troglodytes that say "Its stupid to boycott *&* - that's just what the anti-gunners want from us; to turn on our own! They win." No dipstick, [i]They[/i] win when Gunmaker "A" sees Gunmaker "B" catering to the whim of a mid-level liberal bureaucrat and Gunmaker "A" chooses the same path. It is akin to, and will only lead to, having one sole provider of firearms to the civilian market - a [b]Government[/b] approved one. If that's you're idea of [i]free[/i]dom, please feel [i]free[/i] to lick me where I shit.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:11:54 PM EDT
They asked for it, they got it. I still feel dirty when I see their logo.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:12:21 PM EDT
Keep it up! Ha Ha When S&W first started this everyone was selling their pistols. I could go to the gun show and pick them up for half price. $350-400 for a new “classic” 629. So I have a pair of 5”ers and a pair of 6 1/2”ers. S&W is a good quality gun for less than a Taurus. SUCKERS!!!
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:13:55 PM EDT
We boycott S&W now, and Clinton wins....The limeys are out as they were in 1776...good ridden to them for imposing their socialist bull on his, but S&W are now Americans.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:16:38 PM EDT
Sure I'll forgive S&W, right after I forgive Bill Clinton for raping my sister! Unless S&W apologizes and publicly states that they were wrong in entering in the agreement in the first place they can suck my dick. Even if they do apologize publicly they will still have to do something pretty special to ever get me to buy one of their weapons again. Maybe a gun owners appreciation sale or something. I don't give a rats ass whether a public apology would hang them out to dry against lawsuits or not. They can either go bankrupt or take that chance for all I care. They are the ones that f*cked up so they are the ones that need to make amends now.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:16:54 PM EDT
...and another thing... I don't trust gun writers. Just because you got yourself admission to the Shot Show don't mean shit to me. Save your "big" story for the losers down at the gun store sitting around the overflowing ashstray Bub. Is anyone really surprised yet another "gun writer" or so-called "industry insider" has come out and said "hey, enough is enough already"?
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:19:24 PM EDT
And it wasnt even a limey gun company...they made toilets.... I'd do business with S&W...if they had something I wanted
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:27:44 PM EDT
When S&W publicly repudiates the "agreement" and apologizes to the public for caving in, I'll start looking favorably on S&W again. S&W being under American ownership is a good thing, but I'm not sure that Safe-T-Hammer is the best we could have hoped for, though. I cannot help but wonder if the "agreement" was legally contingent on the purchase.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:33:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind: We boycott S&W now, and Clinton wins....The limeys are out as they were in 1776...good ridden to them for imposing their socialist bull on his, but S&W are now Americans.
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Horsepuckey. We need to put S&W in the grave as an example to the rest of the industry. We can lose a battle to win the war. The sooner S&W is dead, the sooner a real american can buy the tooling, hire the employees and start up a new gun company that won't sell us out. Take a look at Kimber or Kahr, if you don't think it can happen.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:39:07 PM EDT
Employee buy-out. Smith & Wesson Of the People. By the People. For the People. Then I'll buy.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 2:58:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BeauBeaux: Not until the agreement is gone, and they have to say it's gone.
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And it is gone for good, and they can say it in their ads, and they apologize for violating my Second Amendment rights by sucking up to sarah and bill and for f***king over me to try to make a few bucks on 'promised' government contracts. until then screw s&w!
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 3:09:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 308wood: Keep it up! Ha Ha When S&W first started this everyone was selling their pistols. I could go to the gun show and pick them up for half price. $350-400 for a new “classic” 629. So I have a pair of 5”ers and a pair of 6 1/2”ers. S&W is a good quality gun for less than a Taurus. SUCKERS!!!
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So I guess you still buy at K-mart and support other anti-rkba goups and businesses because a boycott allows you to buy at a discounted prices. vultures like you sell your soul to satisfy your wants regardless of the overall outcome. YOU SUCK !!!
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 3:18:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 3:30:51 PM EDT
Boycott? First they have to manufacture something I want. [:D]
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 3:56:43 PM EDT
Yo, S&W... [url]http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/[/url]
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 4:10:19 PM EDT
S&W is now in American hands, good for them. So is Johnny Walker-Lindh(is that his hyphenated married name?). Both say that they did some bad stuff but don't deserve the treatment they are getting. Both deserve to swing at the end of a rope. UNF**K THEM!!! All traitors suffer the same fate.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 4:22:29 PM EDT
whore: n 1. person of ill repute; one engages in sex for money or benefit. 2. person with low self esteem or worth. 3. 308wood.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:08:59 PM EDT
Not ready to buy any new S&Ws yet. Maybe after they grovel and contritely beg forgiveness, assuming they get thier legal problems resolved. Don in Ohio
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:29:41 PM EDT
I have to live with the consequences of everything I do. So do they. I'll buy another Smith, or recommend one, when hell freezes over or they take out full page ads in every major gun publication begging forgiveness and promising to respect our rights from now on. Pat
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:31:07 PM EDT
The deal's all but dead, and I've come to find out it never had teeth anyway. The point's been made, the boycott worked; I have no qualms with buying new from Smith anymore. I don't need an act of contrition from a major corporation to tell me that they regret allowing a huge misstep occur, especially when that misstep was performed by the then-head of a business who is now selling lawnmowers. Best of all, the boycott has had far reaching effects throughout politics and the business world, and especially in the gun culture. Let's not forget that "The Deal" was not about forgoing our rights- it was a business decision, made by people who are no longer associated with Smith and Wesson. Hate the sin, forgive the sinner.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:32:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2002 5:38:58 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:50:33 PM EDT
As long as S&W is still complying with ANY of the terms specified in their agreement, I will NOT buy a Brand New Smith and Wesson firearm. On the other hand I am perfectly willing to buy a USED S&W firearm from a Third Party.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:52:54 PM EDT
Vin Suprynowicz addressed this issue in his column this past Sunday. Check it out: [url]www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2002/Feb-03-Sun-2002/opinion/18004463.html[/url]
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 6:04:06 PM EDT
For me the boycott is still on. Until they fully renounce the deal and tell those other cities to stick it up their azz, I will not give them a dime.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 7:10:37 PM EDT
Man....those NEAT key thingies are so cool.....LOTS of nice "pre" smiths out there if you want one........they want to share the bed with the enemy.....fuck em`.....hippos....[stick]
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 5:23:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2002 5:24:33 AM EDT by gman350]
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: As long as S&W is still complying with ANY of the terms specified in their agreement, I will NOT buy a Brand New Smith and Wesson firearm. On the other hand I am perfectly willing to buy a USED S&W firearm from a Third Party.
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Hey bostonterrier97,you want to buy a used Sigma in 9MM? Moderately accurate,slide worn down to reduce friction,doesn't jam(at least not all the time),and trigger pull can also be used to build up your grip strength. It's a pre-agreement model,I'll throw in the box ,a spare magazine,and a 90% full box of Wolf ammo(only the good stuff for this baby!) Make me an offer.[0:)]
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 6:38:40 AM EDT
The agreement was a business decision to avoid death by lawsuits. S & W, indeed the entire firearms industry, simply doesn't have deep enough pockets to finance ten years worth of lawsuits from the federal, state, and local government. From what I can tell the agreement hasn't really had an impact on the availiblity of Smiths. I can still find all that I want at the shows. As a practical matter, Smith cannot void the agreement. If they tried the lawsuits would start up again with renewed vengence. Smith would be overwhelmed by every two bit lawyer in the coutry. Yes, most of the industry lauwsuits have been dismissed. But the industry still had to pay their lawyers to get that accomplished. The firearms industy is nowhere near as large or profitable as the tobacco companies. They simply can't afford to defend that many lawsuits from that many different directions. I don't like the agreement. I wish Smith did't do it. But I understand the business of it.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 6:52:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 308wood: Keep it up! Ha Ha When S&W first started this everyone was selling their pistols. I could go to the gun show and pick them up for half price. $350-400 for a new “classic” 629. So I have a pair of 5”ers and a pair of 6 1/2”ers. S&W is a good quality gun for less than a Taurus. SUCKERS!!!
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Being a "SUCKER" never before felt so right.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 6:58:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ameshawki: I don't like the agreement. I wish Smith did't do it. But I understand the business of it.
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As 'you' understand the "business of it" so must Smith & Wesson. I too understand my "business of it" - S&W gets none of my money-used or new. Many things in my life are complicated however this issue is , for me, without complication.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 7:12:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ameshawki: The agreement was a business decision to avoid death by lawsuits. S & W, indeed the entire firearms industry, simply doesn't have deep enough pockets to finance ten years worth of lawsuits from the federal, state, and local government. As a practical matter, Smith cannot void the agreement. If they tried the lawsuits would start up again with renewed vengence. Smith would be overwhelmed by every two bit lawyer in the coutry. Yes, most of the industry lauwsuits have been dismissed. But the industry still had to pay their lawyers to get that accomplished. The firearms industy is nowhere near as large or profitable as the tobacco companies. They simply can't afford to defend that many lawsuits from that many different directions. I don't like the agreement. I wish Smith did't do it. But I understand the business of it.
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You've obviously not been paying attention. S&W caved [i][b]and still didn't get out of the lawsuits[/i][/b]. [b]NOBODY[/b] else caved. The "business of it" was [b]in error[/b].
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 8:34:56 AM EDT
I Voted to F'em. I have a bunch of S&W revolvers but they are all older models I got before the boycot, havent' bought one since.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 7:19:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Arquebus12: Let's not forget that "The Deal" was not about forgoing our rights- it was a business decision, made by people who are no longer associated with Smith and Wesson. Hate the sin, forgive the sinner.
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Not about our rights??? I suggest you go read the ENTIRE agreement. As part of the agreement, if a dealer wanted to sell Smiths, he could not sell AR15's. If you don't think that is trampling on our rights, you need to wake up.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 10:12:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2002 10:16:38 PM EDT by Kaliburz]
I was weak!!! [spank] I bought a Smith last year.... but I've always wanted that model since it first came out in 1990/91(?)!!!!!! It was a first run 610...... new, forgive me!!!! [>(] And it was cheap!!!![:P] I also bought a used model 41 (target 22LR), cheap......
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 10:30:51 PM EDT
[i]LOT again...[/i] The best damned 1911 I've ever owned was a S & W.[BD] Now who's going to tell me they didn't make one? [;D]
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 10:56:56 PM EDT
I'm SURE i'm gonna get flamed for this but..... I bought my 686 w/8 3/8" bbl. I love it.I still gotta get a matching 629 w/ 8 3/8 bbl too.AND get another one of each so I can complete a part of my pistol collection.I'm NOT purchacing s&w guns w/integral key locks or other BS security devices though.I don't agree w/S&W decision but...I like S&W revolvers (some of them anyway)and will continue to buy NEW ones when I can untill my collection is complete OR they quit making the new ones that I want.While MANY of you will not agree w/me,THAT'S OKAY!!! I enjoy my pistols they serve me well and don't fail to impress me w/ the quality and great craftmenship that went into making these works of art. They are accurate and have a HAIR trigger from the factory w/o ANY MODS NIB I can't complain.I love all of my firearms and hold them close to my heart(but pointed in a safe direction of course)and will buy what I want if i can afford it.Period.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 11:01:55 PM EDT
Maybe I'm wrong ,but I thought S&W were bought out by a American company now & the agreement with the government has been dropped after the Bush administration was in power. Smith&Wesson is back on track now.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 4:50:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2002 4:52:14 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Flamingred: Maybe I'm wrong ,but I thought S&W were bought out by a American company now & the agreement with the government has been dropped after the Bush administration was in power. Smith&Wesson is back on track now.
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You are WRONG. Yes, they were bought by an American company, but that company wasn't released from the legal obligations of S&W. Reread the article this thread is based on - the "deal" isn't being followed, but remains in effect. That implies it can be activated at any time.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 6:05:45 AM EDT
To hell with 'em. They made their choice. Plenty of gun manufacturers out there and we need to set an example that such treasonous behavior will not be tolerated.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 6:55:24 AM EDT
If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion: Shares of Saf-T-Hammer, the parent company of Smith & Wesson, currently sell for $.82/share. If every gun owner who is committed to the 2nd Amendment were to buy a few shares, they would all be entitled to attend the annual shareholder's meeting. If you want to raise a ruckus, that's the place to do it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 8:13:09 AM EDT
S$W must die. Simple as that. They were and remain a cancer to the Second Amendment. Those of you who insist on supporting them may as well cut a second check to the DNC when you buy your new Snivelin' Weasel. Would I forgive them? If they come clean about their deal with the "devil," and completely disavow the deal and all it implies,in a public mannner, most likely. Not some secret talk behind some closed doors BS. I have a couple pre-Weasels that were nice revolvers. They won't be seeing any new S$W siblings unless/until the new management at S$W grows a pair.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:59:47 PM EDT
After they've paid reparations to all the dealers, customers, etc. and totally backed off their agreements and contributed a major chunk of cash to GOA and affiliated state organizations, then I might think about it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 11:10:13 PM EDT
i dont think S&W is a cancer, the klinter Agreement IS the cancer. you DONT kill the body to rid it of a disease. wanting S&W to be completely DEAD and wiped out is INSANE. theres a lot of employees who have lost there jobs over this and other jobs directly and indirectly would be lost if the company went under. employee ownership would be nice, but its wishful thinking.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 11:44:35 PM EDT
Anyone who thinks the ranting of the children here will have any impact on anything involving the new owners of S&W is deluding him or herself. So is anyone who thinks their opinion is important enough for any people who actually have some power to pay even the slightest bit of attention. Go ahead and rant, though. It may make you feel important. By the way; Do the S&W reparations come before or after the slavery reparations?
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 3:11:27 AM EDT
"You picked the wrong damned parish to haul ass through, boy...!"
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Sherrif J.W. Pepper, from my all time favorite Bond movie. I have two older S&Ws. Looks like I'll get to tell my kids about the gun maker that "use to be." Eddie
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 3:18:16 AM EDT
NO!!! Don't buy a Clinton-Wesson
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