Don't make me bring up the USMC east coast/west coast gay porn scandals. [;)]

Hehe...they're only scandals because of the public perception of Marines behaviour and values are ingrained against homosexuality.  When soldiers are involved, and they are on a scale that dwarfs the before mentioned USMC fiascos, no one cares.

Yes, a distinctive field uniform does make a difference.

My point isn't about who has the snazziest dress uniforms (I personally think that all of the non-field uniforms the Army has had except for maybe the post WWI stuff were ugly as hell, including the ones I wore). My point is about a valid OPSEC concern, and a vain (that is the proper word) attempt to distinguish a branch in a manner that sacrifices effectiveness. And no, I am not debating whether the uniform is more effective camo than current stuff.

When the dirty rat enemy spy sees troops disembarking at an airport or offloading ships, being able to tell the difference between Marines and troops from other branches of service makes a heck of a difference to the order of battle analyst who is trying to piece together enemy strength, organization and intentions. Because the analyst has pubs that tell him the TO&E for various US units on his desk or in his office, he takes the various head counts he got from his spies, he figures out the rough size of the unit, and he gets a good general idea of what his troops will be facing. With a smaller organization like the Marines, it is even easier to account for which units are deployed to various places through open-source media, and that analyst maybe able to figure out exactly who and what he is facing off of something simple like a distinctive uniform and a head count. On the other hand, if he can't tell if it is soldiers or marines his agents saw, he has a big blank in his picture of the situation. If everyone wears the same general field uniform, and all of his reports are from a distance, he will have a real hard time figuring out who is coming to the party, especially if the units engage in good OPSEC and manage to keep some of their equipment under wraps. Maybe they were a Coast Guard/Navy port security unit? Maybe they were the advanced party for an armored division? Maybe it was MEU/SOC? Who knows? That's the point. Don't give the enemy anything for free. If you can't get that point, then maybe some of the jokes I always heard about the Marine Corps have a grain of truth to them...

Hey, I'd be the last one to claim that it's the norm.  But I couldn't let it slide in lieu of Major_Murphy's comments. [;)]

YAWN…All any American enemy has to do is watch CNN to see who they are fighting, where they are going, what they have and what their biggest weakness is.  If the unit is surrounded and out of ammo it will scroll across the bottom in red type so that it will be easy to see.  We have some sneaky units working for us but in general we are about as unnoticeable as the circus.

-Velveeta

It is not a free country.  There are many Marines and other service men and women who died making the down payment on this country so that you and others could live relatively unhindered and be an ignorant slack-jawed loafer retard and still have a higher standard of living that most of the people in the world.  

Were you a Marine? Have you ever served your country?  I mean besides saying “Would you like fries with that?”  You have to have self-respect before you can respect others.  I guess if I were you I would not be respecting other people either.  

Well-spoken armchair soldier.  You and your elite squad of specially trained GI Joe’s can keep defeating Osama Bin Laden in your play room but I was in the service and I did care if someone was in the Marines.  I have a lot of respect for lots of men and women in lots of services.  

Yup, Like I thought, you were never a Marine but you think you could do it.  Sure you could kid.  You could be a SEAL, Ranger, Force Recon, Delta Force, Sniper too. Well when playing with your GI Joe’s [;)]

The point is not that you do not have the right to wear them. It is that you SHOULD not wear them.  Why not wear a Medal of Honor? Why not burn the American flag?  You [I]can[/I], does that mean you should?

-Velveeta

They couldn't eat them though....could they....gosh those Morines are scary critters..... [:)]

Ahhh, the Corps....

[img]http://www.americaya-int.co.jp/clothingimage/usurban.jpg[/img]

Besides...Ya gotta be careful wearing Marine BDUs..they are like the anti-superman suits...sure you become nearly invisable...but your IQ drops 100 points right off the bat...and you cant figure out how to orient a map and if you graduated MCRD San "Dago" you cant find your sunglasses...."These new sea going bellhops sure look sharp in their new "cammies" though"...."Yeah too bad they threw the admirals lugguage overboard".......Thats almost as funny as the Navy and Army spending more money on daycare for illigitimate children born on duty than for helicopter parts....[:)]

Velveeta
I am pretty sure KC is currently in the US military.  However, I do believe he is a boom operator on either a KC 135 or KC 10.  So he would be in the air force and as such is a subject matter expert on ground combat.  

Striker:

Canadians standing out in Afghanistan wearing green based CADPAT just goes to prove that the best cammo in the world is not worth a darn if its not matched to the background.

I heard a rumor that CDF had enough desert pattern CADPAT on trial in nice green Eastern Canada to furnish the troops going to Afghanistan with cammo that might actually work there.  Any truth to the rumor?  Guess CDF didn't want to risk Canadian lives with experimental gear.  

STRLN:

Just want to clarify your position on non-Marines displaying the EGA.  I'm active in the Navy League -- an organization that supports the Sea Services.  The Navy League among other things lobbies for things the Marines and Navy needs.  As part of that I've gotten the opportunity to take some short cruises.  From the Marines on board I have received, among otherthings, hats with the ship name and the EGA.  I have been permitted to purchase other items at the ship's store or directly from the unit.  These are the same items used by the units.  The officers and men have been supportive of those of us visiting and encouraged us to display and wear USMC items.

So, if you see me wearing a ball cap I got from the Marines on the USS Wasp, do I suffer your scorn?  Were those Marines that encouraged me to wear the hat to show support for and raise awareness of them and the very difficult job that they have wrong?

There's a big difference between wearing a hat with an EGA on it (GO).

...and wearing PART of an actual uniform that a few men earn the honor to wear (NO-GO)
(Like buying your very own Green Beret)

Besides, from what I've read here, STLRN isn't telling anyone NOT to wear them.  AND, people who are IN the military find it hard to understand why civilians would want to walk around in cammies.

Hell, go out and get yourself a set of dress blues, for all I care.
Keep in mind, though.... you WILL look like an ASS.

It's already easy to tell the difference just by looking at the headgear.

Someone's been reading too many spy books.

Do you think the fact that these guys have [size=4]USMC[/size=4] on all their shirts, are wearing Marine covers and rank, and are disembarking from a HELO or plane that has a huge [size=6]USMC[/size=6] on its side, or a ship with a name like [/size=4]"Saipan"[/size=4] or [size=4]"Tripoli"[/size=4], might tip off these sneaky spys?
Just maybe?

Major-Murphy:

STRLN was pretty clear that he was not forbidding anyone to wear the EGA but that they would suffer his scorn.  That's why I phrased my question as I did.  

In the earlier posts, the point was made that non-Marines should not wear the EGA.  The example was to test just how far that extended.    

I agree that people who are not service or ex-service should not wear the uniform.  But that begs the question:  What is a uniform?  Years (ok, decades) ago, the Army rule was either US Army tape with no rank or vice versa was ok.  The no-no was the US Army tape with the rank.  Oddly enough the unit patch was ignored in the analysis.

I've seen some scans of the new MARPAT.  It is very hard for me to see the EGA incorporated into the pattern at any distance.  It is disingenuous for the Marines to claim that the uniform is being abused because non-Marines are wearing an imprinted EGA that can't be seen from 2 feet away.  

Applying the standards I was taught, there should not be a problem if the big EGA is covered or if no rank is worn.  

As to why wear military cammo, why not?  If I'm hunting or paint-balling or photographing wildlife, I want the very best cammo available.  If that means Soviet, that's what I'll use.  If it means RealTree, that's what I'll use.  If it means CADPAT, that's what I'll use.  And if it means MARPAT, that's what I'll use.  Its not because I'm trying to pass as a Canadian soldier or a Russian or a Marine (or a tree).  Its because cammo needs to be effective, comfortable in the field and durable at a reasonable price.  The various militaries spend a lot of money looking for the best way of achieving those objectives.   Why not take advantage of their research?  Why not take advantage of the bargains when they surplus equipment?    

Anyone here wear surplus German Flectarn cammo?  If they didn't take the German flag off the seleve, are they German wannabes or insulting the German nation?  

Since a lot of the Marines are going to flame me anyway, let's consider one more argument.  

The Marines, through their desire to be distinctive, are putting American fighting men at risk.  They have deliberately included the EGA to prevent the other services from using the new MARPAT.  Now, either MARPAT is more effective cammo than the current issue Woodland -- in which case the Marines are preventing soldiers and airmen from using a more effective cammo -- or its less effective.  If MARPAT is less effective, then Marines are at risk so they can be more distinctive.  

The Marines are an extraordinary group.  There is no other elite organization of comparable size.  Part of what make the Marines great is their tremendous pride.  Nothing in the my posts should be read as disparaging the Marines.  

[Edited to correct typos -- Thank you Major-Murphy]

Nate, my friend, your really reaching here... but I do respect your earlier comment about your choosing not to wear them. Personally, I wouldn't like it, but that's as far as it goes with me.

Best of luck...

[b]"...putting American fighting men at risk"???[/b]
[size=4]"...putting American fighting men at risk"???[/size=4]
[size=6]"...putting American fighting men at risk"???[/size=6]



Can't take anything you say seriously, anymore.
That's just plain silly.
Like the Army can't just whip up a batch of their own, SANS the EGA???
C'mon.

(Oh, and it's an EGA not EAG)

This is essentially what they are doing.  Go to http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=90491 for details.

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=90491[/url]

This is an argument? Can’t it be equally effective?  One of the reason’s I heard that the Marines went to this new uniform was to separate themselves from the other services for recruitment reasons.  The uniform itself is changed a significant amount as well.  They are designed for the Marine style sleeve roll-ups for one thing. There is nothing sneaky or underhanded in this.  They are not depriving other services penicillin or anything similar.  It is a camo uniform and the reason most people want it now is because it is new and it looks cool.   People can rationalize all they want but when it comes down to it a Deer is not going to be any more or less impressed with the new MARPAT then they are with woodland.  

-Velveeta

Major-Murphy:

Sure the question is provocative.  

Of course the Army can (and as Steel Weasel points out, will) introduce its own version of the digital cammo.  We, the tax payers, will have to pay for another pattern to be developed and no doubt tested.  Undoubtedly the new uniforms could be in the hands of soldiers and airmen faster if the Army and Air Force didn't have to develop a new version (given the political will of the top brass of the services).  The new uniform versions mean additional sets of items to keep in the supply chain.  Maybe the Army, the Navy, the Coast Guard, the Air Force, the FBI, the DEA and all of the other government organizations should get their own versions of the digital cammo, each with their own seals embedded in the pattern.  In addition to uniforms, let's remember that we will eventually need to stock 2 (or 3 or 4) different versions of the same load bearing equipment and tents and rain gear and all of the rest of the stuff that is cammoed these days.  Of course, these are small costs next to a B-2 bomber but all of these little costs add up.  

However, having the Army (or others) run off their own verion of the MARPAT seems to miss one point.  

One of the stated reasons for the new MARPAT is that some Marines were tired of Marines being mistaken for soldiers because the uniforms were the same.  If the Army adopts a version of the MARPAT uniform without the embedded EGAs, the Army and Marine uniforms are going to look alike from any distance over 2 feet.  Will the Marines then switch to yet another pattern so that they will not be mistaken for soldiers? If the Marines continue to want a distinctive pattern, my question remains valid.  

Not really.
You're just being silly.
Have fun.

The 2 (or 3 or ...) patterns could be equally effective in a particular enviroment.  That's unlikely.  It may be the case that MARPAT would be more effective than Woodland in some enviroments but less so in others.  Six color desert (chocolate chip) is more effective in the American SW while 3 color desert is more effective in the Asian SW.  

LOL, I'm a little disappointed in you! I've seen many a Marine brace some civilian wearing the cover or cammies with the EGA! Of course, I also saw one young officer brace some grungy looking scrub only to find out he was a Marine who'd served tours in Vietnam and was at Hue during the Tet Offensive!

I'm grinning like an idiot because I already have a set! Maybe I'm the first civilian to get mine! [bounce] You won't see it on eBay, though.

You guys understand there are two patterns, right? There is the green pattern which is very reminiscent of the SS pea pattern cammies (NOT BDU's) for wooded/green areas then there is the fall/desert pattern which looks like the old original East German "Blumentarn" camo combined with the Russian digital "Stairstep" pattern. These will be worn with a very light tan, rough side out boot that should show up very well in either green or brown environments!

Also, the cover that will be worn with these cammies will be a VERY large floppy hat, much like a womans sun hat or the Australian Daisy Mae hat. Very shiek, very gay.[:x]

Yes, there will be two patterns, plus one additional pattern to make 3 total patterns:
[url]www.tecom.usmc.mil/mcub/utility/index.html[/url]
Of course you knew this.  You already have a set of each.  [;)]  Of course we will not see them.....on sale on eBay.


-Velveeta

Holy cow, I didn't see the new pattern! Too much! I just hope they don't lose sight of the forest for the trees. I have a set of the greens, I don't know if they are issuing the others yet at clothing sales.

No, I have a lot of respect for the Marines, having a lot of family and friends who were in. They are a special breed (as is everyone in uniform). I have mine strictly for the "cool" factor! [:D] You won't see it on eBay!

Unless the prices look crazy out there...$300 for a Canadian uniform??? I didn't even know they HAD an army!!!

I guess they got rid of the “pull-tabs” on the trousers.  That sucks.  I really liked the pull-tabs.  I used to be able to pull them too!  Enjoy them.  I will wait for the knock-offs.  


-Velveeta

I'm sorry this does not make much sense to me at all.. you really are reaching.  First if you're a spy you would be able to tell regardless of the new uniforms the Marines are receiving.  Second, the army wears a whole assortment of berets including black now for regular army.  Let's not forgot the likely stenciling of the branch on the aircraft, or chevrons, or haircuts, or corn rows and cell phones on the army [;)]

In my younger days I would have, but today I am lot older and a lot less ornery


exactly, the Cammies are a uniform.


Also what I was trying to say, cammies aren’t all that comfortable.  Jeans are a lot more comfortable and durable.



Very well put, the fact is the pattern is designed off of how the human mind operates as it gathers info.  Most animals eyes don't work the same so the pattern may not work as well with them.