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Posted: 1/27/2002 4:17:36 AM EDT
[#1]
While I respect Mr. Ayoob greatly, and I can understand his respect for Bill Ruger, I simply cannot understand the kind of critical thinking that went into Ruger's decision.
When your enemies have already warned you well in advance that what they seek is not just a diminishment of your rights, but the total and irrevocable repeal of your rights, you must be an idiot to give them anything! Pres. Bush the Elder made an incredible statement when he said 'No new taxes', but it was understandable. What wasn't understandable was that he thought it wise to go along with Congressional Democrats in 1990 with one of the greatest tax increases in US history! For that simple glaring error in judgment, the American People 'fired' Bush as President just two short years, and a 91% approval rating, later! [b]That's[/b] why you don't make mistakes and you don't give an inch to your sworn enemies! Eric The(SoldAllMyRugerStuff!)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 4:29:04 AM EDT
[#2]
"Critical thinking" was lacking on Ruger's part. While I cannot speak for him, I hazard that for him, at least, the ideological battle-lines, [i]at the time[/i], were not so clearly evident to him as to some of us.
I might even say that there are those to whom the debate has only just become clear. At least Ruger [i]did[/i] wake up finally, repented, and tried to make amends. Leaving aside the purely technical and other physical attributes of Ruger's products, let me ask you this: As a Christian, would not you say that repentance and atonement merit your forgiveness? |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 4:35:31 AM EDT
[#3]
Post from raf -
As a Christian, would not you say that repentance and atonement merit your forgiveness? Always, [b]this[/b] side of the grave! BTW, it is I who may need forgiveness - I said I sold all my Ruger stuff, but I remembered that I still have a Ruger Deerstalker .44mag carbine that I purchased on my 18th Birthday at the K-mart in Bossier City, Louisiana, and a Ruger Super Blackhawk that my Father bought me that same day from Brittain's in Shreveport! You know that I will never, ever sell those items! They are destined for display in the Eric The Hun Memorial Library one day. Eric The(WhichLibary,RightNow,OccupiesMyHalf-BathDownstairs)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 5:12:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: "Critical thinking" was lacking on Ruger's part. While I cannot speak for him, I hazard that for him, at least, the ideological battle-lines, [i]at the time[/i], were not so clearly evident to him as to some of us. I might even say that there are those to whom the debate has only just become clear. At least Ruger [i]did[/i] wake up finally, repented, and tried to make amends. Leaving aside the purely technical and other physical attributes of Ruger's products, let me ask you this: As a Christian, would not you say that repentance and atonement merit your forgiveness? |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 5:14:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Eric, of course I understand your retaining those sentimental favorites. I don't think this rises to the level of forgiveness we're speaking of here, do you?
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Posted: 1/27/2002 5:29:42 AM EDT
[#6]
LarryG, thank you, I'm just trying to do a little bit of setting the record straight here.
I don't deny that there are some techincal issues with some Ruger products, although it's a bit overblown IMHO. I'd like to hear from some of the Ruger-bashers in order to get their take, too, |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 5:34:04 AM EDT
[#7]
How come Ruger still refuses to make 10-round magazines for its rifles, then?
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Posted: 1/27/2002 5:36:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: How come Ruger still refuses to make 10-round magazines for its rifles, then? Good question. Why don't you write or e-mail them and ask? Anything else is speculation. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 5:58:48 AM EDT
[#9]
My dad used to know Bill Ruger, although I doubt he could or would contact him now. I have never doubted Ruger's stand on gun rights. In fact my only bad experience with Ruger products was that my Mini 14 wouldn't group better than 8" @ 100 yards. My 10/22T made up for that. And I think Ruger D/A revolvers are among the very best there is.
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Posted: 1/27/2002 6:13:19 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: How come Ruger still refuses to make 10-round magazines for its rifles, then? Good question. Why don't you write or e-mail them and ask? Anything else is speculation. I'll add this: I have no doubt that some of the millions paid by Ruger to defend against the lawsuits brought by the Antis recently would have been spent in product refinement and development. Who knows what Ruger might have done if they had not been forced to fight for their business life? New, better Mini-14 barrels? 10 mm P-series pistol? Larger Mini-14 and -30 mags? Wholly new firearms? The list is only limited by your imagination. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 6:27:46 AM EDT
[#11]
Mr Ayoob's CREDIBILITY???
Oy. Hate to stake my life on THAT. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 6:38:10 AM EDT
[#12]
If what you say is true, and Bill regretted his position, then I would forgive him. Every business decision isn't perfect, and neither is every attempt to deal with the antis bound to be successful. And somehow, both Ruger and S&W have remained in business despite the rantings of gun owners and the threats to boycott their products. Soembody is buying their stuff!
Now, if you could just explain to me why Ayoob generates such animosity? [url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000459.html[/url] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 6:44:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How come Ruger still refuses to make 10-round magazines for its rifles, then? Good question. Why don't you write or e-mail them and ask? Anything else is speculation. Who knows what Ruger might have done if they had not been forced to fight for their business life? New, better Mini-14 barrels? 10 mm P-series pistol? Larger Mini-14 and -30 mags? Wholly new firearms? The list is only limited by your imagination. LARGER MAGS? We'll never know will we? Care to inquire why? BECAUSE RUGER HELPED GET THEM BANNED! |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 6:45:48 AM EDT
[#14]
Don't get me wrong, I love some of the Ruger line. As a matter of fact I'm awaiting the return of my paperwork for a suppressed Ruger .22 pistol even as we speak.
I just think that Ruger made a monumental and needless blunder in the RKBA arena. Think of it as the Christians vs. Lions in the Flavian Amphitheater, and the lead Christian has offered to 'burn a pigeon' in honor of the Emperor's gods. He does, and yet the lions are still loosed! Ain't no glory in that whatsoever! Eric The(Allegorical)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 8:37:19 AM EDT
[#15]
Supporting the mag ban was hardly the only indication that Bill Ruger is a PC gun manufacturer. He also refused to sell the folding stock GB model Minis to civilians, and would not sell hicap mags for the Mini 14 to civilians long before they were banned.
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Posted: 1/27/2002 8:43:24 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: "How many [i]MILLIONS[/i] of dollars have [i]you[/i] donated to RKBA?" How many millions of dollars does he stand to make? I an sure Ruger feels he made a terrible [i]business[/i] decision not because of the RKBA aspect of it. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 8:49:19 AM EDT
[#17]
I understand where you're coming from [b]raf[/b], buddy, and I think that we should welcome Bill Ruger back into the RKBA fold as soon as he demonstrates that he wants to come back into the RKBA fold.
As a Christian, you know that [u]repentance[/u] precedes [u]forgiveness[/u]![:D] I'm not a Ruger-basher by any stretch, but then I won't say it hasn't affected by gun-buying habits, either. Eric The(GiveMeThatOldTimeReligion)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 8:53:52 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How come Ruger still refuses to make 10-round magazines for its rifles, then? Good question. Why don't you write or e-mail them and ask? Anything else is speculation. Who knows what Ruger might have done if they had not been forced to fight for their business life? New, better Mini-14 barrels? 10 mm P-series pistol? Larger Mini-14 and -30 mags? Wholly new firearms? The list is only limited by your imagination. LARGER MAGS? We'll never know will we? Care to inquire why? BECAUSE RUGER HELPED GET THEM BANNED! Ruger is full of IT! Why do you think his Mini 14 and Mini 30 don't make the LW "assualt weapons" lists? Because he sold out! How many letters and calls do you think Ruger has gotten to make 10 round magazines for the mini-14? As a member of one such letter writing campaign with a group of like minded mini-14 owners, I can say at least thousands! Did Bill Ruger say that "no ordinary citizen needs more than a 10 shot magazine"? YES Wake up! It was his suggestion during congressional hearings, that makes P229 full magazines cost $85-100 and his own mini-14 FULL capacity magazines go for $100+! He sold out everyone else so it would benefit Bill Ruger! *****Edited for crappy spelling!***** |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 8:57:18 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Mr Ayoob's CREDIBILITY??? Oy. Hate to stake my life on THAT. Rik, I've been a fan of Mr. Ayoob for a few years. (Partly due to one training video that shows a knife wielding opponent against a person with a holstered weapon at about ten feet. Enlightening for me.) Obviously there's something that causes you to question Mr. Ayoob's credibility. Please share if you don't mind. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:00:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Given Mr. Ayoob's extraordinarily high level of credibility, ...... [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:02:36 AM EDT
[#21]
I like Ruger products, I own several including a 20 year old Mini 14, from Sears...Remember when we could order rifles from them?
He bothered me then wheen all you could buy were 20 round mags. The 10 round idea meant well, but did alot of damage to us all. His donations are well and good, but he is not into shooting the black guns. He did let his personal interests in firearms, foorget the common good, The 2nd protects all gun ownership, not just military and defense guns. If you split hairs it doesn't really protect hunting guns. In all we need to remember we are all in the boat together. If we let the antis split us into groups, they will sit back and laugh as we destroy ourselves. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:03:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: A little while ago, some threads here bashed Bill Ruger unmercifully for his actions of the past. These actions were seen as sellouts to the antis, and as totally self-serving. Suspecting that the entire story had not been told, I e-mailed Mas Ayoob, one of the most respected firearms authors and RKBA activists in America for information. A very incomplete bio of Mr. Ayoob is here:[url]http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/showprod.cfm?&DID=122&User_ID=436710&st=3672&st2=-58068311&st3=576102633&CATID=60&ObjectGroup_ID=173[/url]. It fails to list accomplishments subsequent to 1998, and his [i]numerous[/i] national and international shooting awards. Mr. Ayoob's response: "Dear Robert: I've known Bill Ruger Sr. for many years. At the time of his advocacy of the short magazines, I was one of the few who told him to his face that I thought it was a big mistake. He told me that he talked daily with Senators and Congressmen, and that the anti-gunners had convinced them that we were the intractable ones who wouldn't give an inch, while the Sarah Brady types just wanted some "reasonable, middle of the road concessions". Bill felt that the magazine thing would help to show that we were the voice of reason. "Of course, this backfired on him terribly. The fact is, Bill and his company [i] have always been in the forefront of fighting the HCI stuff, and have spent millions upon millions of dollars on our side of the fight. He and his people are solid Second Amendment activists.[/i] The one mistake long ago has been more than paid for. Cordially, Mas Ayoob" (emphasis added) Given Mr. Ayoob's extraordinarily high level of credibility, that's enough for me. To the doubters I say: "How many [i]MILLIONS[/i] of dollars have [i]you[/i] donated to RKBA?" Disclaimer: No financial interest or personal knowledge of the above people. raf, thanks for the extra effort !! I'm not going to have much to say about Bill Ruger - one way or the other. (Although the fact that he was smart enough to hire James Sullivan to design both The Mini-14 and the Model 77 does count - at least with me. Both models have sold more than one million units.) |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:15:41 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: While I respect Mr. Ayoob greatly, and I can understand his respect for Bill Ruger, I simply cannot understand the kind of critical thinking that went into Ruger's decision. That's exactly how I feel. However, Ayoob is in the magazine business. The editorials he approves for release regarding the likes of Ruger Co. and S&W continuously say "enough is enough" and "let by-gones be by-gones". Why? He likes free guns. (and who doesn't for that matter?) But that is irrelevant - again, why? Because MY RKBA and YOUR RKBA should not be left in the hands of Bill, Mas, or whichever jag-off is in charge of S&W now. Nope, in reality the whole thing is up to us. Get busy. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:19:40 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Rik, I've been a fan of Mr. Ayoob for a few years. (Obviously there's something that causes you to question Mr. Ayoob's credibility. Please share if you don't mind. It has mostly to do with 1) the way he presents his credentials, 2) the way he whores himself out to the latest company to buy advertising in the magazine for which he is writing his "objective review," and 3) the way his views seems to mysteriously do 180 degree shifts every few years. On 1), he doesn't lie about his credentials, but he tends to overemphasize the hazards of being a part-time deputy in a sleepy New England community. Given how seldom he has run into life-threatening situations, this also calls into question how "tested" his methods are. 2) is legendary, and though it is not unique to him, he is famous for whole-heartedly embracing one brand of ammo over all others, then as in 3) suddenly switching opinions. All in all, it points to him being just another gun-mag whore. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:23:25 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Wake up! It was his suggestion during congressional hearings, that makes P229 full magazines cost $85-100 and his own mini-14 FULL capacity magazines go for $100+! He sold out everyone else so it would benefit Bill Ruger! *****Edited for crappy spelling!***** How does Ruger benifit from the resale of mags that are no longer produced? It's not like he gets a cut fro mthe sale of a preban ma that some guy is selling. And Ruger doesn't manufacture any civilian hicaps to sell. So where are they benifiting? [smoke] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:30:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Thank Raf for your efforts, I have not seen something like this.
BUT, I think Bill Ruger Sr. was mislead by the antis. As you can see, they would have told Mr. Ruger anything to get him on board. To him, it sounded reasonable at that time. And of course they lied, and the damage was done. I still remember like it was yesterday how the antis always pleaded with the gunners for a reasonable compromise(i.e. if we gave up something, and of course they never gave up anything). A lesson to us all, the antis will do whatever it takes over the long haul. It took them years to get the Brady Bill and AW ban in place. And the gunners should think in like mind. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:42:31 AM EDT
[#27]
I'm not a huge fan of Ruger (although I do own to mini-14's, one a ranch rifle, and the other is an ex-CDC GB LEO model). However as an ex-corrections officer from the state of NV, I can only say Bill Ruger should choose his sides carefully, unlike Colt, Glock, HK, and others, Ruger is not very popular with LE agencies. If he sides with or appears to compromise with the anti's, he's gonna find himself out of business. Aside from a few states using the minis in their correctional facilities, I don't see LE agencies running out and signing huge contracts with Ruger. And the private sector will either be prohibited or will just turn their noses to Ruger gear.
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:43:45 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: Rik, I've been a fan of Mr. Ayoob for a few years. (Obviously there's something that causes you to question Mr. Ayoob's credibility. Please share if you don't mind. It has mostly to do with 1) the way he presents his credentials, 2) the way he whores himself out to the latest company to buy advertising in the magazine for which he is writing his "objective review," and 3) the way his views seems to mysteriously do 180 degree shifts every few years. On 1), he doesn't lie about his credentials, but he tends to overemphasize the hazards of being a part-time deputy in a sleepy New England community. Given how seldom he has run into life-threatening situations, this also calls into question how "tested" his methods are. 2) is legendary, and though it is not unique to him, he is famous for whole-heartedly embracing one brand of ammo over all others, then as in 3) suddenly switching opinions. All in all, it points to him being just another gun-mag whore. Got it. Now I understand why your comment was made. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 9:44:12 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: How does Ruger benifit from the resale of mags that are no longer produced? It's not like he gets a cut fro mthe sale of a preban ma that some guy is selling. And Ruger doesn't manufacture any civilian hicaps to sell. So where are they benifiting? Well, that would make sense if I said Ruger was making money on the resale of mags, but I didn't say that, did I? I said Bill and his company benefitted from his selling out on the magazine issue! I'll type slower for you; Fact: Bill Ruger is THE PERSON who dreamed up the "10 round mag" idea. He was filmed with Tom Brokaw as Bill said "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun" "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round mags or my folding stock" "I see nothing wrong with waiting periods". This interview was used (with Bill Rugers permission) over and over again to rub our faces in the fact that "even a gun manufacture thinks gun control is good". Fact: Following is an excerpt from the March 30, 1989 letter Bill Ruger sent to every member of Congress: "The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining 'assault rifle' and 'semi-automatic rifles' is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives." This letter was taken from the American Handgunner mag, dated Sept 1992 (pg. 18) Fact: If you check EVERY gun ban, the Ruger Mini-14 is either not named, or specifically named as exempt. ------------------------------- That is what Bill Ruger did, and said, and that is how he, and his company benefitted. Re-read it. Check my FACTS against your wishes. I don't boycott Ruger, and own several of their products. I also don't think Bill Ruger is a RKBA kind of guy. I don't care what Masad says, I can quote Bill Ruger himself, and that's from the horses mouth, so to speak. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 10:24:12 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: How does Ruger benifit from the resale of mags that are no longer produced? It's not like he gets a cut fro mthe sale of a preban ma that some guy is selling. And Ruger doesn't manufacture any civilian hicaps to sell. So where are they benifiting? Well, that would make sense if I said Ruger was making money on the resale of mags, but I didn't say that, did I? I said Bill and his company benefitted from his selling out on the magazine issue! I'll type slower for you; Fact: Bill Ruger is THE PERSON who dreamed up the "10 round mag" idea. He was filmed with Tom Brokaw as Bill said "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun" "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round mags or my folding stock" "I see nothing wrong with waiting periods". This interview was used (with Bill Rugers permission) over and over again to rub our faces in the fact that "even a gun manufacture thinks gun control is good". Fact: Following is an excerpt from the March 30, 1989 letter Bill Ruger sent to every member of Congress: "The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining 'assault rifle' and 'semi-automatic rifles' is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives." This letter was taken from the American Handgunner mag, dated Sept 1992 (pg. 18) Fact: If you check EVERY gun ban, the Ruger Mini-14 is either not named, or specifically named as exempt. ------------------------------- That is what Bill Ruger did, and said, and that is how he, and his company benefitted. Re-read it. Check my FACTS against your wishes. I don't boycott Ruger, and own several of their products. I also don't think Bill Ruger is a RKBA kind of guy. I don't care what Masad says, I can quote Bill Ruger himself, and that's from the horses mouth, so to speak. I don't boycott Ruger either - on the other hand I only own one Ruger product - a heavily modified Mini-14. Good to see your input complete with sources. Thank you. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 10:26:48 AM EDT
[#31]
Well, that would make sense if I said Ruger was making money on the resale of mags, but I didn't say that, did I? I said Bill and his company benefitted from his selling out on the magazine issue! I'll type slower for you; Fact: Bill Ruger is THE PERSON who dreamed up the "10 round mag" idea. He was filmed with Tom Brokaw as Bill said "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun" "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round mags or my folding stock" "I see nothing wrong with waiting periods". This interview was used (with Bill Rugers permission) over and over again to rub our faces in the fact that "even a gun manufacture thinks gun control is good". Fact: Following is an excerpt from the March 30, 1989 letter Bill Ruger sent to every member of Congress: "The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining 'assault rifle' and 'semi-automatic rifles' is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives." This letter was taken from the American Handgunner mag, dated Sept 1992 (pg. 18) Fact: If you check EVERY gun ban, the Ruger Mini-14 is either not named, or specifically named as exempt. ------------------------------- That is what Bill Ruger did, and said, and that is how he, and his company benefitted. Re-read it. Check my FACTS against your wishes. I have never seen this before. It's a slap in the face. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 10:46:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: How does Ruger benifit from the resale of mags that are no longer produced? It's not like he gets a cut fro mthe sale of a preban ma that some guy is selling. And Ruger doesn't manufacture any civilian hicaps to sell. So where are they benifiting? Well, that would make sense if I said Ruger was making money on the resale of mags, but I didn't say that, did I? I said Bill and his company benefitted from his selling out on the magazine issue! I'll type slower for you; Fact: Bill Ruger is THE PERSON who dreamed up the "10 round mag" idea. He was filmed with Tom Brokaw as Bill said "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun" "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round mags or my folding stock" "I see nothing wrong with waiting periods". This interview was used (with Bill Rugers permission) over and over again to rub our faces in the fact that "even a gun manufacture thinks gun control is good". Fact: Following is an excerpt from the March 30, 1989 letter Bill Ruger sent to every member of Congress: "The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining 'assault rifle' and 'semi-automatic rifles' is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives." This letter was taken from the American Handgunner mag, dated Sept 1992 (pg. 18) Fact: If you check EVERY gun ban, the Ruger Mini-14 is either not named, or specifically named as exempt. ------------------------------- That is what Bill Ruger did, and said, and that is how he, and his company benefitted. Re-read it. Check my FACTS against your wishes. I don't boycott Ruger, and own several of their products. I also don't think Bill Ruger is a RKBA kind of guy. I don't care what Masad says, I can quote Bill Ruger himself, and that's from the horses mouth, so to speak. Sadly, all too true. And also in the past. Bill Ruger made a mistake, and has been paying for it ever since. Both in the damage to his and his company's reputation, and in the millions spend aggressively fighting the Anti's lawsuits; the same suits S&W caved in to. I salute those who are error-free in their lives. I'm sure Bill Ruger must envy you. I know I sure do. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 10:51:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Mr Ayoob's CREDIBILITY??? Oy. Hate to stake my life on THAT. Rik, when [b]you[/b] are a writer for nationally circulated publications, an accomplished author, an internationally respected firearms trainer, and a highly sought-after expert witness, then [b]your[/b] credibility will rise to the level of Mr. Ayoob's. Not a flame, just stating facts. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 10:58:03 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Supporting the mag ban was hardly the only indication that Bill Ruger is a PC gun manufacturer. He also refused to sell the folding stock GB model Minis to civilians, and would not sell hicap mags for the Mini 14 to civilians long before they were banned. IIRC, Remington, for years, refused to sell their 870 folding stocks to non-LEOS. They were even marled "For Law Enforcement Use Only". They may still have that same policy. Did you boycott Remington for their error as well? I don't defend Bill Ruger's errors. I say that he's admitted the error of his ways, and is bankrolling the lion's share of the legal counterassault against the Antis in the courts. How many millions did you say [b]you[/b] contributed? |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 1:05:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Sadly, all too true. And also in the past. Bill Ruger made a mistake, and has been paying for it ever since. Both in the damage to his and his company's reputation, and in the millions spend aggressively fighting the Anti's lawsuits; the same suits S&W caved in to. I salute those who are error-free in their lives. I'm sure Bill Ruger must envy you. I know I sure do. I'm sorry, but I can't buy that. He didn't make a mistake...he sold his SOUL, and our 2nd amendment rights suffered as a direct result of his "mistakes". He willfully and honestly said the above quotes. He willfully and honestly intended to send out that memo to members of congress. That is not a mistake. And if he is now claiming to be a born-again constitution supporter, then he is just as full of shit as he has always been. Just like George Wallace after the stroke. If Sarah Brady came out, and said she has seen the light, and believes in the 2nd, would you believe her? Would you forget all her past actions? |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 1:19:56 PM EDT
[#36]
No, Stubbs. Smith and Wesson sold their SOUL. Read the agreement. That was a complete sellout. Bill Ruger made a mistake, admitted it, and has tried to atone for it, but perfect people just can't forgive. S&W wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate sellout to Clinton to try to have themselves removed from the lawsuits.
As for the reason the the Mini14 and Mini30 aren't on the banned list is because of the traditional rifle stock, not the buying out as some people suggest. The Mini's never came from the factory with all the evil features (except for the GB model etc) and you can't add all of them now if they weren't already added before Sept 94. The mini was never meant to be an AR. You can add one or two to come to the config of the postban AR, but no more. The postban Mini (or preban Mini that didn't already have them) can't have anything that an AR can't. The M1A is not on the list. You can have a flashhider on a new one because it doesn't have the pistol grip, same deal with the Mini. Does Springfield bribe the government or kiss their butt as some insinuate that Ruger does? If not, why isn't the M1A on the list? This whole thing with the ban is based on looks. The M1A and the Mini come from the factory with either a wooden stock in traditional shape or a synthetic with the same shape. The anti's whole purpose is to confuse the sheeple and it works. The Mini and M1A are not on the list for no other reason than appearance. No big mystery or shenanigans. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 1:22:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Rik, when [b]you[/b] are a writer for nationally circulated publications, an accomplished author, an internationally respected firearms trainer, and a highly sought-after expert witness, then [b]your[/b] credibility will rise to the level of Mr. Ayoob's. Not a flame, just stating facts. No, it was indeed a flame, and a rather poor point at that. Ayoob got where he is because he's a hard worker and a good salesman. He saw an opening and he took it. The fact that he is published in the field isn't the issue, the issue is his credibility. As for his status as an expert witness, again I could tell you stories about "expert witnesses" that are only hired because the prosecution/defense knows ahead of time they will support their position, NOT for their expertise. You're making the argument from authority, which is a logical fallacy. Just because Ayoob has been financially successful doesn't mean his tactics are the best to use in an armed confrontation, and it also doesn't mean his opinion on guns and ammo is objective. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 1:24:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: IIRC, Remington, for years, refused to sell their 870 folding stocks to non-LEOS. They were even marled "For Law Enforcement Use Only". They may still have that same policy. Did you boycott Remington for their error as well? I never said I was boycotting anyone. I am simply calling a spade a spade. Ruger is and has been trying to be a "PC" gun maker, which is impossible. Remington is trying the same thing, especially with their decision not to sell the PSS to civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't defend Bill Ruger's errors. I say that he's admitted the error of his ways, and is bankrolling the lion's share of the legal counterassault against the Antis in the courts. How many millions did you say [b]you[/b] contributed? If I had millions, I would contribute some. But then, if I had a gun manufacturer's business, I wouldn't make the idiotic mistake of trying to be PC. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 1:57:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: This whole thing with the ban is based on looks. Oh, OK then. That makes sense. I thought "they" were [i]only[/i] trying to incrementally ban all guns and Bill Ruger Sr. was [i]only[/i] leading the gun banners away from his company. Whew! What a load off! He's a helluva guy! |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 2:05:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Guys, here is a thread at Tactical forums, about Ayoob....the first one got locked
[url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000459.html[/url] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 2:07:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How does Ruger benifit from the resale of mags that are no longer produced? It's not like he gets a cut fro mthe sale of a preban ma that some guy is selling. And Ruger doesn't manufacture any civilian hicaps to sell. So where are they benifiting? Well, that would make sense if I said Ruger was making money on the resale of mags, but I didn't say that, did I? I said Bill and his company benefitted from his selling out on the magazine issue! I'll type slower for you; Fact: Bill Ruger is THE PERSON who dreamed up the "10 round mag" idea. He was filmed with Tom Brokaw as Bill said "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun" "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round mags or my folding stock" "I see nothing wrong with waiting periods". This interview was used (with Bill Rugers permission) over and over again to rub our faces in the fact that "even a gun manufacture thinks gun control is good". Fact: Following is an excerpt from the March 30, 1989 letter Bill Ruger sent to every member of Congress: "The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining 'assault rifle' and 'semi-automatic rifles' is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives." |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 2:08:52 PM EDT
[#42]
[b]This letter was taken from the American Handgunner mag, dated Sept 1992 (pg. 18) Fact: If you check EVERY gun ban, the Ruger Mini-14 is either not named, or specifically named as exempt. ------------------------------- That is what Bill Ruger did, and said, and that is how he, and his company benefitted. Re-read it. Check my FACTS against your wishes. I don't boycott Ruger, and own several of their products. I also don't think Bill Ruger is a RKBA kind of guy. I don't care what Masad says, I can quote Bill Ruger himself, and that's from the horses mouth, so to speak.[/quote] Sadly, all too true. And also in the past. Bill Ruger made a mistake, and has been paying for it ever since. Both in the damage to his and his company's reputation, and in the millions spend aggressively fighting the Anti's lawsuits; the same suits S&W caved in to. I salute those who are error-free in their lives. I'm sure Bill Ruger must envy you. I know I sure do.[/quote][/b] I'm not sure I understand why Ayoob is an RKBA authority. He gets well paid for his "expert testamony". I've never heard of him on the front lines. As for Ruger,and his "millions" in defense of RKBA, seems to me it's been spent defending his own company! Raf, you just love to harp on christians about forgiveness. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, there is NONE without repentence (asking for it). EVEN THEN, one's motives for asking may be looked at when looking at the record. Keep in mind, some things will NOT be forgiven. Bill Ruger went to bed with the devil, no one should be pleased with what he conceived...... As for being "mis-lead" by the antis? Bullshit! Their strategy has been clear since the '30s. Ruger was (for whatever reason) trying to ingratiate himself with whomever. Let him swing....... |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 2:38:30 PM EDT
[#43]
would not sell hicap mags for the Mini 14 to civilians long before they were banned. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 3:12:56 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: I'm not sure I understand why Ayoob is an RKBA authority. He gets well paid for his "expert testamony". Not to be a pain but... Despite all the bashing he receives about never actually killing anyone, Ayoob IS a friend and a backer of the armed citizen. People's Exhibit A: This April, he's coming to Milwaukee as a guest speaker for a Wisconsin Concealed Carry Movement dinner. He's done this for more states than just Wisconsin. His Fee: A one way coach-class air ticket and a night's stay at the local Econolodge. People's Exhibit B: Complete an LFI class and if you ever go to court over a self-defense shooting, and it's righteous, you get him as your expert witness, with the same fee as above. That makes him A-OK in my book. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 3:16:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: Sadly, all too true. And also in the past. Bill Ruger made a mistake, and has been paying for it ever since. Both in the damage to his and his company's reputation, and in the millions spend aggressively fighting the Anti's lawsuits; the same suits S&W caved in to. I salute those who are error-free in their lives. I'm sure Bill Ruger must envy you. I know I sure do. I'm sorry, but I can't buy that. He didn't make a mistake...he sold his SOUL, and our 2nd amendment rights suffered as a direct result of his "mistakes". He willfully and honestly said the above quotes. He willfully and honestly intended to send out that memo to members of congress. That is not a mistake. And if he is now claiming to be a born-again constitution supporter, then he is just as full of shit as he has always been. Just like George Wallace after the stroke. If Sarah Brady came out, and said she has seen the light, and believes in the 2nd, would you believe her? Would you forget all her past actions? Follow the money. Ruger has donated Money and commemorative and collectable firearms to RKBA orgs. Of course it's partly in his own self-interest. Isn't that why anybody donates anything? He's helping fund [b]our common fight[/b]. At this point in time, the [i]least[/i] that can be said of Ruger is that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Personally, I think much more of him than that. But consider this: Without Ruger money to fight the lawsuits, ALL our rights would be much further infringed. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 3:25:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Rik, when [b]you[/b] are a writer for nationally circulated publications, an accomplished author, an internationally respected firearms trainer, and a highly sought-after expert witness, then [b]your[/b] credibility will rise to the level of Mr. Ayoob's. Not a flame, just stating facts. No, it was indeed a flame, and a rather poor point at that. Ayoob got where he is because he's a hard worker and a good salesman. He saw an opening and he took it. The fact that he is published in the field isn't the issue, the issue is his credibility. As for his status as an expert witness, again I could tell you stories about "expert witnesses" that are only hired because the prosecution/defense knows ahead of time they will support their position, NOT for their expertise. You're making the argument from authority, which is a logical fallacy. Just because Ayoob has been financially successful doesn't mean his tactics are the best to use in an armed confrontation, and it also doesn't mean his opinion on guns and ammo is objective. I have quoted Mr. Ayoob's objective credentials in response to your [i]ad hominem[/i] attack. Please detail your criticisms of Mr. Ayoob as an expert witness. Is Mr. Ayoob perfect? Of course not. But he is widely and highly respected. His magazine articles are instantly peer-reviewed, and almost always pass muster. As for a flame intended, again, NOT. BTW, define an objective opinion, please. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 3:28:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Quoted: This whole thing with the ban is based on looks. Oh, OK then. That makes sense. I thought "they" were [i]only[/i] trying to incrementally ban all guns and Bill Ruger Sr. was [i]only[/i] leading the gun banners away from his company. Whew! What a load off! He's a helluva guy! Actually, this is correct. I recall mainstream written accounts of Swinestein et.al. selecting particularly nasty-looking "assault weapons" by their appearance in order to help sway the ill-informed. Would you expect anything less of her ilk? |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 3:32:43 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Swinestein raf, "Swinestein" ?? [:D] |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 3:36:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: I'm not sure I understand why Ayoob is an RKBA authority. He gets well paid for his "expert testamony". I've never heard of him on the front lines. As for Ruger,and his "millions" in defense of RKBA, seems to me it's been spent defending his own company! Raf, you just love to harp on christians about forgiveness. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, there is NONE without repentence (asking for it). EVEN THEN, one's motives for asking may be looked at when looking at the record. Keep in mind, some things will NOT be forgiven. Bill Ruger went to bed with the devil, no one should be pleased with what he conceived...... As for being "mis-lead" by the antis? Bullshit! Their strategy has been clear since the '30s. Ruger was (for whatever reason) trying to ingratiate himself with whomever. Let him swing....... You cloak yourself with recently gained knowledge. The Antis plans were not apparent to most until fairly recently, and still not apparent to many. Just walk out the door and buttonhole a stranger. Ask him/her about the RKBA. 70 out of 100 will not understand the abbreviation, let alone the debate. As for Mr. Ayoob, he is a voluntary Board of Directors member of the Second Amendment Foundation, a well-known Libertarian-minded RKBA organization. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 3:38:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: would not sell hicap mags for the Mini 14 to civilians long before they were banned. Agreed. Ruger [i]was[/i] stupid. [i]No Mas[/i]. |
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