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Posted: 1/25/2002 8:17:39 AM EDT
I'm going to write a response to this, and would appreciate your thoughts / ideas. I would also like links to gun related crime statistics from England & Australia after the firearms bans passed in those countries.
I am writing in regards to the Jan. 9 editorial "Ohio gun ban creates more victims." There are many things in this editorial I take exception to. First, I am bothered by the author's repeated use of language such as "God given" and "natural right". The idea that going through life with a gun under my coat would be natural is staggering. So is the idea that it would be the way God intended. The author seems to be moving in the wrong direction with this issue. The United Kingdom, which has had a handgun ban since 1997, had an astonishingly low total of 42 murders in 1999. If [i]no one[/i] had guns, then we wouldn't be worried about carrying concealed handguns around, would we? More lives would be endangered by the presence of weapons in the home and on the street if the author got his way.
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Input, please?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:23:13 AM EDT
Compare the population propotion of the United States and Great Britain to see the 42 murders means crap. Also look at the number of non gun related murders in the U.S. to see just how motivated people are to get the job done with or without a gun.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:31:10 AM EDT
By his logic, disarming the police would make us safer. [i]no one[/i] having guns is not an option. The bad guys already have them and aren't about to give them up. Was there no crime, no murders before guns were invented? The highest crime rates in recorded history were in medieval Europe, before guns existed. GB's gun crime has gone up 400% since their handgun ban. People are being murdered on the street for their cell phones in London. Your right to life is the "God given" right being referred to. If you are not able to defend that right, it doesn't mean much. Far and away, the best means to resist that right being taken from you is a firearm in well-trained hands. Without exception, crime has gone down as states made issue of CCW mandatory. Is he in favor of keeping the existing crime rates or of lowering them?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:41:23 AM EDT
[:D]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:46:06 AM EDT
One word, Austrlia. Ban's guns, now has the highest crime rate in the western world.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:18:33 AM EDT
I like your threads and your logic A3kid, you're a pretty cool guy. [beer]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:21:19 AM EDT
here's my response - Dear Utopia Boy: You are an idiot. Have a nice life, tho your prolly not smart enuf to have a long life. Signed, garandman
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:25:34 AM EDT
Thank you Flag Waver. [beer] to you too!
Originally Posted By garandman: here's my response - Dear Utopia Boy: You are an idiot. Have a nice life, tho your prolly not smart enuf to have a long life. Signed, garandman
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g-man, I learned a while back that my first off-the-cuff thoughts on ANY matter are never the best ones to share. While I agree with you in sentiment, I'm going to have to try a little harder than this. I think I'll add "BTW - Bite me" to your response and see if the editor prints it.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:26:55 AM EDT
Well, for starters, you can cite the fact that Gary Kleck, a Florida State University professor has collected statistics that show that guns are used by citizens more than 2 million times a year to prevent crimes. Also, you can point out the fact that John Lott, scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and former Yale professor, collected very detailed crime statistics across the United States, compiled the statistics, and wrote a book "More Guns, Less Crime" that shows that areas with Concealed Carry Laws and other gun-friendly laws have less incidence of violent crime and crime. Finally, though, I think the most compelling argument is that gun laws violate the scond amendment which is an individual right, as are all the rights in the Bill of Rights. When you willfully violate any part of the constitution by passing legislation that violates the fundamental tenets that make up our system of government, you cheapen and weaken every part of the constitution. What's next? The 1st Amendment? That's already under attack with the Campaign Finance Reform Stuff. I would also recommend quoting the very people who wrote the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and Constitution. There are some great quotes from the Founding Fathers regarding personal protection and firearms ownership on the NRA site. Check out the following link: [url]http://www.nra.org/frame.cfm?url=http://www.madisonbrigade.com[/url]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:30:56 AM EDT
Thanks Arc-Angel. Keep 'em coming.....I'd like to have a truckload of ideas & info to compile into a letter to send. I really want to blow (it's a [u]she[/u] BTW..) her sh!t out of the water. I really need links to gun crime statistic sites for USA, GB & Australia........anybody?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:39:10 AM EDT
Also, check out this site. It has a ton of good stuff. [url]http://www.guncite.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:39:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a3kid: g-man, I learned a while back that my first off-the-cuff thoughts on ANY matter are never the best ones to share. While I agree with you in sentiment, I'm going to have to try a little harder than this. I think I'll add "BTW - Bite me" to your response and see if the editor prints it.
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So true. So true. Look for todays John R. Lott thread, how it was two students who had guns in their cars that stopped that foreign exchange student (who I REALLY DOUBT was lewgally able to possess a firearm) from killing more people at Appalachian law School. Had the two students had "guns under their coats" as Utopia Boy derides, maybe NO ONE would have died. Ultimately, criminals are cowards, and presented with an equal show of force, will back down. They prey on weakness, just the kind of weakness Utopia Boy wants to spread country wide.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:41:12 AM EDT
Another thing - I read an article where Scotland yard has a curious little habit of reporting multiple homicides or a string of thefts as a SINGLE crime. Looks good for the tourism bureau. Here in America, we report them as multiple crimes. I don't have a source.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:44:07 AM EDT
How about this angle - God through Jesus demonstrated the prudence of concealed weapons in the Book of Luke 22:36. "He that hath no sword should sell his robe and buy one." That's about as "natural and God-given" as it can get.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:51:20 AM EDT
Good luck. Some idiot wrote into the Sun-Sentinel a while back saying how we should regulate guns like cars. I worte a response stating the facts. Guns are more regulated than cars. And using many of the same parraelels such as No car has been banned becuase of its speed, etc... Needless to say her emotional letter was published w/o any facts to back it up and my response with plenty of facts backing up what I said wasn't published. Hell, I never got a call asking if I actually wrote it like they do if there is any chance in hell of it being published.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:07:25 AM EDT
a3kid, try this: People of the United States are called citizens while people of the UK ar called subjects(of the Queen). Citizens have never relied solely on the government for protection while British subjects have historically been told that the Crown will protect them. They have never had the right to keep and bear arms so our constitional rights are totally alien to them. We are neither Britans nor Canadians nor any "other" type of people. We are free and require different laws. Something they will never understand.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:09:49 AM EDT
a3kid, try this: People of the United States are called citizens while people of the UK are called subjects(of the Queen). Citizens have never relied solely on the government for protection while British subjects have historically been told that the Crown will protect them. They have never had the right to keep and bear arms so our constitional rights are totally alien to them. We are neither Britans nor Canadians nor any "other" type of people. We are free and require different laws. Something they will never understand.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:11:24 AM EDT
OOPS, fat fingered and sent it twice.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:15:48 AM EDT
How about something like this? With regard to ____________s letter of Jan 9 which took exception to the very concept of self defense titles" you fill in the title here". I have a few questions? Naturally I am curious as to the source (if any) of their statistics. I for one find the idea of their only being 42 murders in Jolly Ole England to be a little far fetched. Considering that handgun violence has risen to a point where one precinct of London is getting over 1000 gun incidents a week, this number must be a daily total. All this occurs mind you after a total ban of handgun ownership.....well for the lawabiding anyway. As to natural and god given rights? Well how much more basic of a right can there be beyond the RIGHT to self preservation. If one is prevented from access to the very tools required...does one still have a right? One really should look at all sides of this debate before one makes such lofty statements.....lest one look the fool. Regrards a3kid Naturally you should put in our real name.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:33:42 AM EDT
Or how about point to the fact that more and more of England's "Bobbies" (police) are carrying guns these days, despite the author's claim that gun violence is so much lower in England. Of course the natural reason for this is that we bloodthirsty, cutt-throat American gun nuts have all been sending all the English thugs guns. If banning guns and keeping them out of criminals hands were so easy, England should be the best at it. After all, it is an island, the only way to get in short of the "Chunnel" is to take a boat or fly in. With a limited number of ports and airports, they should have an easy time of it. And the car and truck traffic should be easy because theoretically they could stop and search every vehicle if they wanted. If England can't control the illegal flow of guns to their shores, there is no way in hell the United States would be able to. The author of that editorial is smoking crack if they think thats possible. Just look how many illegal aliens there are in this country!
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 12:01:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 12:05:29 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By a3kid: Quoting a letter to the editor: I am writing in regards to the Jan. 9 editorial "Ohio gun ban creates more victims." There are many things in this editorial I take exception to. First, I am bothered by the author's repeated use of language such as "God given" and "natural right". The idea that going through life with a gun under my coat would be natural is staggering. So is the idea that it would be the way God intended. The author seems to be moving in the wrong direction with this issue.
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So would "natural" to her be - begging on your knees for your life, appealing to a criminal who the laws already failed to prevent possessing a gun???? 70% of murders are prior felons who shouldn't have a gun in teh first place. yet they ALWAYS seem to be able to get one - easier than teh law abiding can.
The United Kingdom, which has had a handgun ban since 1997, had an astonishingly low total of 42 murders in 1999. If [i]no one[/i] had guns, then we wouldn't be worried about carrying concealed handguns around, would we?
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The United Kingdom includes ireland, right??? So, they'll use bombs instead, like the IRA does. that's preferrrable to being killed with a firearm??? And if cancer didn't exist, no one would get cancer?? Is this logic she is using, or fantasy???
More lives would be endangered by the presence of weapons in the home and on the street if the author got his way.
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Is this a gut feeling, or does she have some statistical evidence???
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 1:58:32 PM EDT
Actually, England's rate of kniffings has gone through the roof. Even celebs are being attacked. Remember how George Harrison was almost knifed. Hell, had that been me I would've shot the SOB dead.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 2:40:44 PM EDT
With CCW legislation on the front burner in Ohio, be prepared for the media to ratchet-up the anti-gun rhetoric.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 3:19:15 PM EDT
I'm afraid I can't recall where I read this recently, but crime in the UK is going up at an alarming rate. Many burglaries there occur while the home owners are present; the burglars need not fear the presence of confronting an armed home owner.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 4:09:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 4:32:00 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By a3kid: I'm going to write a response to this, and would appreciate your thoughts / ideas. I would also like links to gun related crime statistics from England & Australia after the firearms bans passed in those countries.
I am writing in regards to the Jan. 9 editorial "Ohio gun ban creates more victims." There are many things in this editorial I take exception to. First, I am bothered by the author's repeated use of language such as "God given" and "natural right". The idea that going through life with a gun under my coat would be natural is staggering. So is the idea that it would be the way God intended. The author seems to be moving in the wrong direction with this issue. The United Kingdom, which has had a handgun ban since 1997, had an astonishingly low total of 42 murders in 1999. If [i]no one[/i] had guns, then we wouldn't be worried about carrying concealed handguns around, would we? More lives would be endangered by the presence of weapons in the home and on the street if the author got his way.
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Input, please?
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First, I love how morons always point to the UK as an example. It is an example all right, but not the way they think. On a per capita basis, they and Australia are constantly swapping number one and number two while the US is not even in the top five of several studies of industrialized nations. The US is anywhere from number six to number fifteen, depending on which study you read. You might point out to this person that the UK has had a 135 percent increase in murders since their gun bans and are now arming Bobbies for the first time in their very long history. Their 42 murders in 1999 is a staggering number compared to the numbers for years before the ban. It is much higher than the US when you compare population numbers. Here is a good read on this [url]http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/may/19/dantre.htm[/url] It shows that the US rate is 5.73 per 100,000 for murders, while the UK was a 14 per 100,000. This was 1999, the very year that the writer mentions and it is more than double our rate. It has gotten worse since, while our murder rate has gone down. The UK rate is only exceeded by 55 per 100,000 for South Africa, a country in total chaos, and 21 per 100,000 in Russia, where guns are totally banned. Go figure. Read the article. You will note the lack of mention of Switzerland, Israel, and Austria in the top 24 for any kind of crime. Basically no gun laws, everyone is armed, and real tight immigration. Hmmm. Sounds like a real good recipe, all three things.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 4:36:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cc48510: Good luck. Some idiot wrote into the Sun-Sentinel a while back saying how we should regulate guns like cars. I worte a response stating the facts. Guns are more regulated than cars. And using many of the same parraelels such as No car has been banned becuase of its speed, etc... Needless to say her emotional letter was published w/o any facts to back it up and my response with plenty of facts backing up what I said wasn't published. Hell, I never got a call asking if I actually wrote it like they do if there is any chance in hell of it being published.
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These people don't know what they are talking about. If they regulated and licensed guns EXACTLY like cars, my carry license would be good anywhere in the country, I could buy as many guns of any type I wanted as long as I could afford them, and no police officer anywhere could arrest me for carrying as long as I have my "license" from my home state. Of course, they don't mean EXACTLY like cars, just the way they want them licensed.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 4:51:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 5:00:00 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 5:24:35 PM EDT
First off dont allow the right to keep and bear arms to become an anticrime issue. If sept 11 taught us anything at all it should be that Anything in the hands of a wrong minded individual can be used as a weapon often with dramatic results-- By her logic airplanes,cars, trucks, buses, motorcycles, broken glass, baseball bats, kitchen knives, box cutters, tv remotes, sarcasim,medievil shields,machettes, bricks, sharp sticks,foul odors, --and on and on can all be use to commit crimes and harm people --especially people who refuse to defend themselves or rely on someone else to do it for them. in that respect going unarmed actually does society as a whole a diservice in increased police and court and corrections budgets to deal with the investigations prosecutions and warehousing of the offenders. Ask a prison guard what a weapon free einviornment is like and how many shanks and concealed weapons he takes out of a given cell block per year. The gun murder rate in Britian did go down and violent crime went off the chart beatings,strongarm muggings and rapes and especially kick in home robberies often with fatal results where the victim or victims are beaten to death defenseless without a firearm and garunteed to be an unarmed victim to thier attacker. The second ammendment is about freedom not crime and a peoples control of thier government rather than the other way around. Also keep in mind that while concealed carry is your right depending upon your state it is not a requiremnet if you dont want to go armed fine --dont, but let me do it legally dont take away my options for defending my family and preserving freedom due to your unfounded fears. Someday you may need Me. And there might not be a cop around.
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