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Posted: 1/24/2002 7:01:18 AM EDT
[url]apnews.excite.com/article/20020124/D7H80IB80.html[/url] 01/24/2002 8:16 AM EST The police department has refused to direct traffic at a YMCA triathlon because it says the club promotes witchcraft by reading Harry Potter books to children. Penryn Fire Police Capt. Robert Fichthorn said the eight-member force voted unanimously to boycott the 20th running of the triathlon, scheduled for Sept. 7. "I don't feel right taking our children's minds and teaching them (witchcraft)," Fichthorn said. "As long as we don't stand up, it won't stop. It's unfortunate that this is the way it has to be." The Lancaster Family YMCA began reading chapters of the Harry Potter books to children enrolled in an after-school program in November. In a letter to the township and the YMCA, Fichthorn challenged the religious integrity of the YMCA, and questioned whether it was "serving the will of God" in using the books. The wildly popular children's books by J.K. Rowling chronicle the fictional adventures of the young Harry Potter as he attends a boarding school for wizards and battles his nemesis, the evil sorcerer Voldemort. The YMCA's executive director, Michael Carr, said he was disappointed by the department's decision, but doesn't expect it to stop about 600 triathletes from participating in the race. Township Supervisor Ronald Krause said the YMCA may have to hire police from another community to direct traffic for the race. The course includes a one-mile swim, a 25-mile bicycle route and a 6.2-mile run. About 200 volunteers are needed to run the event, which passes through Penryn, a small community about 66 miles west of Philadelphia.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:05:04 AM EDT
Uhhh, these ossifers are NOT paid to render either political or moral opinion. They are paid to "protect and to serve." And YES, that means the Harry Potter junkies / nitwits. If they REALLY want to stage a legitimate protest, they should turn in their shields and duty weapons, and find another line of work.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:10:17 AM EDT
He! He! He!.....garandman, you are at it again.......And I have to agree with you. [beer]
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:15:29 AM EDT
LOL you got it it on the nose Garandman.....they are not the morality police. Do they ticket for speed reading?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:17:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Uhhh, these ossifers are NOT paid to render either political or moral opinion. They are paid to "protect and to serve." And YES, that means the Harry Potter junkies / nitwits. If they REALLY want to stage a legitimate protest, they should turn in their shields and duty weapons, and find another line of work.
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i agree, as long as there's no law broken here, it's not their job to protect one sort of religious expression over another. next thing you know, they'll be escorting methodist funerals but not presbyterian (or vice-versa).
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:18:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind: they are not the morality police. Do they ticket for speed reading?
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LOL!!!!!!!!!! [:D]
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:22:27 AM EDT
Guys the Fire Police are VOLUNTEERS. It is a branch of the local volunteer fire dept. They are NOT sworn officers of the law. Since their service is voluntary, they are free to choose whom they serve. i for one am glad they are taking a stand against this sugar-coated witchcraft.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:23:19 AM EDT
Could you be arrested for being a Hindu, or maybe a Roman Catholic, Hate to be a Jew in that town,
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:28:29 AM EDT
so if we dont go to the same church as them, we have no right to expect them to help. do we still have to pay tickets written by them, or obey their commands?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:28:40 AM EDT
Ah that makes sense, are they a state recognized organization that is discriminary in their memberships and policies? Let's see, 'i for one am glad they are taking a stand against this sugar-coated witchcraft. ' It is a book, fiction a story, they are not recruiting for the red one!, You will not lose your children to the devil, the devil is in the minds and hearts of small people!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:32:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By paspecops: Guys the Fire Police are VOLUNTEERS. It is a branch of the local volunteer fire dept. They are NOT sworn officers of the law. Since their service is voluntary, they are free to choose whom they serve. i for one am glad they are taking a stand against this sugar-coated witchcraft.
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OK, if they are voluntary, I can see your point - to a point. But they provide a PUBLIC service, and people rely on them. Are they gonna NOT provide protection next to Catholics?? Or what if their next door neighbors daughter breaks up with their son?? Can they not provide protection then??? I am FULL BORE anti Harry Pothead. But I don't beleive this is the time or the place for them to arbitrarily decide who receives their services, and who doesn't. Like I say, resign if you must. Work out an agreement with the Potheads possibly. But don't blackmail people by withholding your public service because of your views of morality. Jesus did NOT boycott the adulteress at the well. He dealt with her fairly, and told her one-on-one where she was wrong.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:33:47 AM EDT
Mr. Wind: I do not take kindly to insults. If you wish to discuss this matter like gentlemen, i am willing to do so. Name-calling is the refuge of those with no position to debate.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:38:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2002 7:39:10 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By paspecops: Mr. Wind: I do not take kindly to insults. If you wish to discuss this matter like gentlemen, i am willing to do so. Name-calling is the refuge of those with no position to debate.
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while i disagree with Mr. paspecops position on this, I have to [rolleyes] at the way you guys are UNABLE to discuss topics without overkill in the way you treat people who disagree with you. More than once I've been the target of your overkill, but now that i agree with you, I'm like your buddy [rolleyes] Lighten up, and try to discuss this like adults. Please.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:39:26 AM EDT
I am FULL BORE anti Harry Pothead.
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I think that really says something when Mr. anti-Potter himself thinks those guys are off-kilter. I love how those guys can carry guns, but us peons can't.z
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:42:58 AM EDT
And these guys do NOT carry firearms.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:47:15 AM EDT
Whether or not the Fire Police are volunteers or whether they have the right to boycott if they wish, one truth remains: they're idiots who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:48:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By paspecops: And these guys do NOT carry firearms.
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Thank God. I wouldn't want some moron who can't tell the difference between reading a fantasy novel and practicing witchcraft to be carrying a gun around.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:48:35 AM EDT
This whole venomous anti-Potter thing is silly. I suppose that I will burn in hell for enjoying The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, numerous sci-fi titles, etc... I read the Potter books after the shizbat storm started, found them enjoyable. It seems to be a literary genre called fiction/fantasy. I don't see any kids 'round here so influenced that they are trying to fly or transmute objects... Well, back to the forge, gotta try a new spell I got from an Elven Lord to forge a Ring of Power to enslave you Unbelievers [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:50:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Whether or not the Fire Police are volunteers or whether they have the right to boycott if they wish, one truth remains: they're idiots who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
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This from a guy who says 1. Christanity is a fantasy. and 2. More evil has been done in the name of Christianity that many other things. HUGE contradiction there, Rik. Just because something is fantasy does NOT make it NOT capable of bringing evil into the world.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:51:34 AM EDT
the article cited does not state whether they are volunteer, or carry arms. where does this info come from? by implication, i would assume that "fire police" are "duly appointed" law enforcement officers. by what authority do they presume to direct traffic? can they issue tickets, or arrest? just who are these guys?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:58:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: This from a guy who says 1. Christanity is a fantasy. and 2. More evil has been done in the name of Christianity that many other things. HUGE contradiction there, Rik. Just because something is fantasy does NOT make it NOT capable of bringing evil into the world.
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No, I never said Christianity was a fantasy. Christianity is a real religion with real followers. The beliefs of those followers are, in my considered opinion, not based on reality, but they do REALLY believe them...hence the potential for evil. No one believes that the magic in Harry Potter is real except a few nutcases. Surely [b]even you[/b] should be able to see the difference there.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:00:00 AM EDT
Lurker: The Fire Police seem to be unique to Pennsylvania. They are volunteers, thru the local fire dept, whose job it is to direct traffic around accidents, detours, etc so that the sworn officers can continue on other duty. It is a strictly volunteer position, with no authority to issue summons, traffic or otherwise. They have no law enforcement powers other than what a private citizen has.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:04:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 7: [url]apnews.excite.com/article/20020124/D7H80IB80.html[/url] 01/24/2002 8:16 AM EST The police department has refused to direct traffic at a YMCA triathlon because it says the club promotes witchcraft by reading Harry Potter books to children. [red]Township Supervisor Ronald Krause said the YMCA may have to hire police from another community to direct traffic for the race.[/red]
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This makes me believe that this is a paid side job, not part of their regular police duties. You can not and should not be able to be forced to work a side job for any reason, and you shouldn't have to provide a reason why you don't want to do that job. I believe the dept listed in the news article is a "Public Safety Dept." Meaning the officers are Firefighters, Police Officers, and EMT's. They do each job on a rotating basis to meet the needs of the dept.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:07:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: No, I never said Christianity was a fantasy. Christianity is a real religion with real followers. The beliefs of those followers are, in my considered opinion, not based on reality, but they do REALLY believe them...hence the potential for evil.
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Wiggle wiggle, squirm squirm. You KNOW I was not talking about the people who make up Christianity. I was talking about the ideology - creation, a definite concept of god, etc etc. And you HAVE said that is fantasy. And you HAVE said that the ideology of Christianity has produced evil in the world. Ipso facto, SO CAN the harry Potter "fantasy." Blatant misdirection of teh discussion Rik. And just like people can utilize the ideology of Christianity for evil, they can misuse any other ideology.
No one believes that the magic in Harry Potter is real except a few nutcases. Surely [b]even you[/b] should be able to see the difference there.
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Idiots. Nutcases. These words tell me 1. You are arrogant. 2, you are incapable of having adiscussion without insulting people. That aside, witchcraft and the supernatural ARE real in my belief (as well as BILLIONS of other "idiots' and "nutcases") so it is only a logical progression that we should express concern about how the "black arts" are presented to children. We don't need your approval Rik. And could care less if you think we are "nutcases." Mostly, it just tells us you are an angry, mean person.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:10:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By paspecops: Lurker: The Fire Police seem to be unique to Pennsylvania. They are volunteers, thru the local fire dept, whose job it is to direct traffic around accidents, detours, etc so that the sworn officers can continue on other duty. It is a strictly volunteer position, with no authority to issue summons, traffic or otherwise. They have no law enforcement powers other than what a private citizen has.
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thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:18:37 AM EDT
"Sugar coated witchcraft" my ass! I hate to veer the direction of this topic another way, but has anyone here actually READ the Harry Potter books. Having read the first three major Harry Potter novels a couple years ago(damn community service), after hearing all of the hype caused by Jerry Falwell and other nut jobs, I think I realize what happened. Basically, they took the setting of the book (a young wizard in training going about his mis-adventures), extracted a few bizarre quotes, and blew it way out of proportion. The book is a children's book, nothing more. I have found much more offensive material in such "acceptable" childhood stories such as The Wizard of Oz (death, opiate ingestion, attempted murder), and Alice in Wonderland (attempted murder via-decapitation). If anyone here who thinks that Harry Potter promotes witchcraft, please post your direct evidence proving so. I think you'll have an easy time though, seeing as how everyone has read the stories in their entirety, and looked at every part of the book in context with the whole. Hell, one could take the bible, and use it to justify slavery, spousal abuse, murder, etc... But if these small snippets that people use to rationalize such behavior are viewed as part of the whole book, one realizes these acts are actually not permissable. Anyway, I know I'm gonna get flak from all of the Harry Potter haters. But really, Harry Potter is not evil, and certainly not anti-Christian. Maybe you guys would prefer to read your children a book about a young boy who fire-bombs a Planned Parenthood. That might meet your approval.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:19:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 7: ...The course includes a one-mile swim, a 25-mile bicycle route and a 6.2-mile run. About 200 volunteers are needed to run the event, which passes through Penryn, a small community about 66 miles west of Philadelphia.
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I see the problem these guys have- it's a [b]6 mile[/b] run, [b]66 miles[/b] from big, evil Phillie, obviously foretelling the coming of the end of the world- "666", get it? And they'll have [/b][i]NO[/b][/i] part of it. Who could blame them for such an astute analysis!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 8:22:08 AM EDT
We have fire police here in CT too. They direct traffic around fire scenes, as they are part of the volunteer fire dept. Most members are former fire fighters past mandatory retirement who still wish to serve their community. Having specific knowledge of these skills, they probably have the discretion of volunteering to direct traffic for parades, events, etc. Their primary duty is for emergencies, not general private events. Here, I think that their only statutory power is to have a red flashing light on their personal vehicle for use only when the vehicle is stationary. They can carry just like anyone else with a permit. I don't think there is any reason to stick it to these guys for sticking to their values.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 11:45:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Wiggle wiggle, squirm squirm.
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Stop spouting off everything that comes into your head and you won't have to squirm so much when you see it torn to shreds.
You KNOW I was not talking about the people who make up Christianity. I was talking about the ideology - creation, a definite concept of god, etc etc. And you HAVE said that is fantasy.
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No, Mark. The BELIEF in it is real. The idea that anyone believes in Harry Potter as a matter of faith is ludicrous. You're simply being dense, whether intentionally or by chance I don't know.
And you HAVE said that the ideology of Christianity has produced evil in the world. Ipso facto, SO CAN the harry Potter "fantasy."
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No, Mark, because Harry Potter is NOT an ideology. It's a fantasy novel. NO ONE is proposing that Harry Potter is a book of faith that you should live your life by.
Blatant misdirection of teh discussion Rik.
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Yes, you are.
And just like people can utilize the ideology of Christianity for evil, they can misuse any other ideology.
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Except of course, as you would know if you bothered to use the brain you believe God gave you, Harry Potter is NOT an ideology.
Idiots. Nutcases. These words tell me 1. You are arrogant. 2, you are incapable of having adiscussion without insulting people.
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Oh, so YOU believe that Harry Potter is a real book of faith, that people live their lives by? No? If not, then who does believe that? Idiots, nutcases. I call a spade a spade.
That aside, witchcraft and the supernatural ARE real in my belief (as well as BILLIONS of other "idiots' and "nutcases") so it is only a logical progression that we should express concern about how the "black arts" are presented to children.
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Whether you believe witchcraft is real or not, Harry Potter is NOT a book of wiccan faith...it wasn't intended so and no one uses it as such. Your contention that it IS a book of faith would be akin to me stating that Ben Hur is a Christian handbook...when of course, it's simply a novel that uses early Christianity as a background. I hope the difference isn't too subtle for you to grasp.
We don't need your approval Rik.
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Damn good thing...hate for you to be waiting for THAT. Don't hold your breath, if you get the idea.
And could care less if you think we are "nutcases." Mostly, it just tells us you are an angry, mean person.
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Hehe, no Mark...I am far from angry. I am one of the most relaxed people you'd ever meet. Which is why I am unafraid to speak my mind, regardless of who it offends. You know? Like YOU claim to be...but then, whenever someone ELSE does that, you seem to take offense.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 12:16:59 PM EDT
Ok I just must say this do you lose your rights when you work for a police department or fire department? If this where a big KKK meeting and you where a black officer should you have the right to refuse and not be there to help out? If there was a big Satan worshipping gathering and you where vary pro-god should you have to help out with that? Your a police officer and pro-gun and your asked to go direct traffic for the gun burning do you not have the right to say your not going to do it?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 12:24:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2002 12:25:40 PM EDT by tayous1]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Oh, so YOU believe that Harry Potter is a real book of faith, that people live their lives by? No? If not, then who does believe that? Idiots, nutcases. I call a spade a spade.
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Why not People did it with the Dungeons & Dragons games. I'm guessing the guy who invented the game was not thinking that people would lives there lives as the characters that where in the game. You can still find people to day on the web that live there lives through that. You can also find people who belive they are vampire and other supernatural things. Try looking up this stuff on the web you will see it what I'm talking about.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 12:30:42 PM EDT
Your a police officer and pro-gun and your asked to go direct traffic for the gun burning do you not have the right to say your not going to do it?
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No, you absolutely do not have the right to refuse. You have two choices: do it or become unemployed. You're a sworn police officer, you'll jolly well follow orders. Where on earth did you get the idea that they don't have to?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 1:12:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1: Ok I just must say this do you lose your rights when you work for a police department or fire department? If this where a big KKK meeting and you where a black officer should you have the right to refuse and not be there to help out?
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The right you have as a citizen is to refuse to participate in a job-related activity you cannot support. The police department's right as an employer is to terminate an employee who will not perform required duties. End of story. I've read the Harry Potter books. All 4 of them. I've read the Bible, cover to cover. I've read the Koran. I've read the Book of Mormon. I've read the LoTR trilogy enough times to have it memorised, chapter and verse. I've played Dungeons & Dragons. I've been to gaming conventions. I've gone to Free Spirit Gathering. None of these events had an intrinsic effect on me. I don't run around my yard with a broomstick because of the Potter books. I didn't become a Christian because I read the Bible. I didn't sacrifice small animals because I played D&D. I didn't become a Pagan because I went to Free Spirit. I experienced these things, and I applied my intellect to determine what I could and could not believe. The thing that people seem to forget is this: Words are just words. Words are tools, and are neither good nor bad. Hiding words that you think are "dangerous" from your kids, or teaching them that certain books are "bad" is just as irresponsible as teaching kids that guns are "evil". If you believe that your kids are intelligent, you [i]teach[/i] them about guns, so that when they encounter guns in the real world, they won't be fascinated by them and tempted to "play" with them, or to sneak around looking for them, and end up getting hurt. They realise that a gun is a tool with a dangerous end. Why are words so much more scary? If there's a book out there that you think is dangerous, why not teach your kids about [i]why[/i] you believe the book is dangerous, and why you disagree with the ideas in it. Then, let them read it. Show them that you respect their good sense enough to not be taken in. If you go the other route, hiding it, sheltering the child, forbidding the child to read it...all of these will just make the kid curious, and will give the book power beyond what it really is: a collection of words. A Bible (and here I'm speaking of the physical object) is just a book. It's no heavier than an equivalently thick novel. The paper isn't important, the ink isn't important. If you're a Christian, the important part is that you believe in the ideas the words express. So you teach your kids about the ideas. If you're smart, you start even before they can read. Because it's not the words themselves that are important. If you disagree with Harry Potter, fine. Don't encourage your kids to wear robes and run around the back yard with a broom, pretending to play Quiddich. If you disagree with the Koran, fine. Don't encourage your kids to pray to Mecca 5 times a day. If you disagree with the Bible, fine, don't encourage your kids to accept Christ. Note that in the above paragraph, I never suggested that one should [i]deride[/i] people who do choose to believe the things that you choose not to believe. If someone disagrees with you, get over it. It's called being a grown-up. -BP
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 3:59:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Celt:
Your a police officer and pro-gun and your asked to go direct traffic for the gun burning do you not have the right to say your not going to do it?
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No, you absolutely do not have the right to refuse. You have two choices: do it or become unemployed. You're a sworn police officer, you'll jolly well follow orders. Where on earth did you get the idea that they don't have to?
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I agree with you, except in this case it appears that this is what is often called a "paid detail". In other words they would be getting paid by the Y, directly, to direct traffic outside their regular duty hours/responsibilities. Are you saying they can be forced to accept "off duty" employment???????
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