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Posted: 1/22/2002 10:14:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2002 10:15:17 AM EDT by AFARR]
Let me start by saying I DON'T want this to become a racist thread--so try to keep your responses rational. My wife had the TV on last night, and I caught part of one of the Post-News Garbage Shows--It might have been Nightline, I remember distinctly that it had Mr. Bad Comb Over Ted Koppel (no toupee could look THAT bad) on it. He was expounding about the slaughter in Congo/Rowanda. Naturally they showed the Refugee camps in Congo from the Civil War in Rowanda. They showed people who had been killed and maimed in the fighting. They showed a Humanitarian Aid worker telling how the "Western" powers needed to come into the refugee camps and separate out the Hutu Militia (hiding from the Tutsi's) from legitimate refugees, and they didn't. I made the comment to my wife that this problem didn't happen until AFTER the "Western" states (colonial powers) left the area and the natives were allowed to govern themselves. Naturally, this wasn't mentioned in the broadcast. I am for self-government in a country or group, however, I also can sympathize with the civilians who get slaughtered or maimed in the fighting among the various groups. My question to the board is this: What is the root cause of the inter-group fighting in Africa? Is it that the colonial powers pulled out too quickly without leaving a stable native government? Maybe the artificial (made by the colonial powers) borders of the states are the problem--the individual groups should have been allowed to make their own borders without outside interference? Other possible causes? One thing I firmly believe is that once the powers pull out, the US and other Western states should NOT have to come back in and be playground monitors for the new nations. They need to work out their problems on their own. We may have to keep the problems isolated to the country having them--i.e. keep the fighters from crossing a border to re-group and re-attack, but even that I have mixed feelings about our involvement.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:17:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2002 10:58:46 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
South Africa is much better off after the end of Apartheid. [;D] Edited to add smart ass and clear up any ambiguity
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:17:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2002 10:18:42 AM EDT by BenDover]
Tribal ethnic mentality. Topped with blood money from precious gems to buy guns with. You have a feudal socity.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:20:42 AM EDT
Within 50 years, I predict that Africa look like it did in the early 20th Century. It will once again be made up of benign, protective "colonies".
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:23:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2002 10:25:04 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:23:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:29:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:30:54 AM EDT
If they all want to fight amongst themselves and kill each other then let them go at it. People have been killing each other like this for millions of years, except now they are using guns (for the most part). What makes anyone think we can just decide to stop it because it's now the 21st century? As long as they aren't bothering me, I say let them fight it out. Eventually one side will win and one side will lose and it will be peaceful again until the cycle starts over. That's life.....
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:31:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: South Africa is much better off after the end of Apartheid.
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I will also give halfcocked the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is being facetious. The problem with Africa is that the societies that originally evolved there were tribal (feudal) in nature with undefined borders. Colonialism suppressed tribal rivalries and established rigid borders. Once Colonialism was gone, the rivalries returned, but were prosecuted with modern weapons. The governments have since largely devolved into quasi-feudal entities, as we have seen in Congo, Zimbabwe, etc.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:38:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:41:53 AM EDT
Maybe the artificial (made by the colonial powers) borders of the states are the problem
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It seems any time borders are created by an outside force (e.g. UN), there are problems until the borders are changed. Witness the war that's been going on for over 50 years in Korea, the Balkan Peninsula, Israel, Kashmir, too many places in Africa to keep-up with, and other places I'm sure you guys can list. About South Africa, if you value freedom more than stability, a healthy economy, and safety, then yes it is better off. Don't be too harsh on people that fight for freedom who end-up with a less than perfect result. We had the advantage of the Founding Fathers who were smart enough to write the Bill of Rights and a relatively isolated location. Overthrowing a government can happen overnight, but making real improvements takes time.z
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:55:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AFARR: What is the root cause of the inter-group fighting in Africa? Is it that the colonial powers pulled out too quickly without leaving a stable native government?
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If one has never visited a 3rd World country, it's really HARD to envision their mind set. I've been to Korea & Haiti & the difference was night & day. SOF magazine has been running a series of articles about the genocide in Africa for the last several years. About their (the writers) only conclusion is the locals cannot handle the success of independence. Look at the AIDS epidemic that's sweeping Africa, in a few years there won't be many tribal wars as there'll be so few men left to fight in them. I can't say it's a racial thing as look at Germany in the 1930s & 40s, Bosnia in the last 10 years. Some folks are just assholes, no explanation given. Sigh.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 11:12:46 AM EDT
Its the slow process of self rule, unfortunately most of the countries start after a revolution or coup d'etat. so you end up with a government that is not by or for the people and very corrupt that will resort to any means necessary to stay in power. Until finally the people are driven to another revolt. Its a slow , bloody process, made worse by outside countries interfering and private sectors (arms dealers) getting rich. This process is being played out in Zimbabwe now, comrade mugabe is hanging by a thread and doing everything but declaring marshall law to save his ass in the upcoming elections.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 11:58:30 AM EDT
Fortunately the US had the great luck to be conceived and implemented by a highly educated and strongly moral group of leaders. This form of government was heavily influenced by the French philosophies of independence combined with the realization of the injustices of the British monarchy. Of course, the US government is based on the concept of individual freedom tempered with Christian morality, with a generous helping of capitalism thrown in. The root problem in Africa (and in much of the Third World) is that the political and moral evolution of the population hasn't progressed to the point that a full appreciation of the benefits of a democratic republic exists. And such an appreciation cannot be artificially imposed; this has been proven time and time again. Until they outgrow their feudal anarchy, it will always be some form of "the one with the most guns wins."
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:01:45 PM EDT
Hmmm this thread reminds me. What ever happened to Murphwanda?
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:02:40 PM EDT
Biding my time, just biding my time......
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:14:45 PM EDT
Africans are a tribal people in the purest sense. Their only "loyalty" is to immediate family (sometimes) and the tribe. All peoples from outside the tribe or family unit are the enemy. (Often those within the tribe/family are enemy too). The only thing that brings semblance of order is love of mother (family unit), fear of witch doctor (you'll come down with a dread disease if you don't pay him homage) and who has the biggest gun. Westerners make the mistake of trying to use western standards to assess non-western societies.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:28:45 PM EDT
The U.S. began as a colony of missionaries in 1620 and in four hundred years the result is the world's greatest nation ever. The love of money is the root of all evil. Our country's root was not the love of money but the love of God. Nothing will fix Africa short of domination by a government with a moral base or an internal revival. I'm not holding my breath (or making travel arrangements in the near future) Planerench out.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:29:57 PM EDT
Africa has no problems AIDS will not cure within 50-75 years. And they can't blame anything or anyone but themselves for it. [IMG]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:47:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Planerench: The U.S. began as a colony of missionaries in 1620 and in four hundred years the result is the world's greatest nation ever. The love of money is the root of all evil. Our country's root was not the love of money but the love of God. Nothing will fix Africa short of domination by a government with a moral base or an internal revival. I'm not holding my breath (or making travel arrangements in the near future) Planerench out.
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I will not let this reply pass without note. But past noting I will not respond. [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:51:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: If they all want to fight amongst themselves and kill each other then let them go at it. People have been killing each other like this for millions of years, except now they are using guns (for the most part). What makes anyone think we can just decide to stop it because it's now the 21st century? As long as they aren't bothering me, I say let them fight it out. Eventually one side will win and one side will lose and it will be peaceful again until the cycle starts over. That's life.....
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Roger That!! Even though it does seem like the easy way for US to deal with this, it is the truth and I've pretty much accepted it. What are we trying to do by intervening? Press our "humanitarian" believes on these countries? I mean, ask these countries what a P.O.W. is and they'd point to the dead guy hanging in the tree shot and pissed on. Its a Joke.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:54:10 PM EDT
The problem in Africa are similar to the problems in the middle east. The movie "Lawrence of Arabia" is a good theatrical history lesson to why these countries are so F-ed up. The problems are only partly due to the Colonial powers. It is not really because they left. The problem lies within how Colonialists cut up the land with artificial borders. Borders that were designed to benefit the colonist based on mineral wealth or strategic military strength. They did not give a second thought to the ethnic groups or tribes that lived there. Thus you have a myriad of different tribes trapped within a common border. Some right next door. Tribes that have been embroiled in blood feuds for millennia forced to share the same land. I know in the Congo, there are two or more groups trying to claim the same area filled with gemstones, precious metals and such. They all claim the land as their own, truthfully probably none have a 100% claim to it but the artificial border made by the Belgians cuts across several tribal territories, each with their own hereditary claims to the land. Neither side wants the other to have one "gemstone" cent. Almost every Middle Eastern country suffers from this same fate. Several ethnic/religious groups trapped within an arbitrary colonial border. And lets not forget the former Soviet Republic. If is wasn't for them flooding Africa with AK 47's in the hope of "converting" more nations into communism, many of these groups wouldn't have had the power or means to slaughter/starve each other.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 2:10:38 PM EDT
The problem with Africa is it's full of Africans.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 2:26:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuailCountry: The problem with Africa is it's full of Africans.
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....and the world was enlightened. [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 2:41:24 PM EDT
I imagine the same could be said of Georgia... [:D]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 2:54:08 PM EDT
[:D]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:06:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: I imagine the same could be said of Georgia... [:D]
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Yes, Georgia is full of Africans too.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:25:42 PM EDT
My African travel was limited to 3 short months in Somalia. My opinion is they are beyond help.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:42:03 PM EDT
The problem is the African motto: "One man, one vote, one time."
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:43:39 PM EDT
Watching a news report that showed some men trying to cool the lava flow in Goma with FIRE EXTINGUISHERS tells me we're a couple of generations away from bringing them into the 21st Century. With such ignorance, I doubt you'll see any significant improvements in our lifetime. Though it may be anecdotal, it's obvious Africans for the most part need an educational system that will bring them out of the dark ages. Call it racism or stereotyping, any impartial look at Africa's recent history bares this out.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:56:59 PM EDT
The problems of Africa stem from the backward people who populate it. While America was founded by people from relatively developed countries, Africa has NEVER shown much hope for developement. The height of African achievement was under colonialism and has been down hill ever since it ended. How to fix it? Let AIDS run its course, let the idiots fight over their differences until they wipe out large numbers of the other side. Once the population is reduced substantialy it will be decision time. Do we leave them alone, to continue the failed cultures that have accomplished almost nothing for many centuries? Do the developed counties once again impose a successful culture on them, destroy the failed tribal culture? During this wait, how do we continue to extract the resources that make the world operate? What WE DON'T DO is pour more money into that bottomless pit!
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 4:22:24 PM EDT
And the multicurturalists say we should "respect" and " understand" these societies! HORSESH%T!
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 4:49:33 PM EDT
I gotta tell ya - sad and fucked up as it might be - there is a part of me that thinks (if I were in a different situation in life - single and free) I would not mind going to Africa - the congo in particular. With that much unstability, and that many natural resources (esp gold, diamonds and oil) - it is conceivable that a white boy MIGHT live just long enough to make a few million and then get out. It would be a wild ride - but maybe worth the risk.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 7:24:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuailCountry:
Originally Posted By DScott: I imagine the same could be said of Georgia... [:D]
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Yes, Georgia is full of Africans too.
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Would that make them Georgian-Africans, or just Georgians?
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 7:30:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By platform389: Africa has no problems AIDS will not cure within 50-75 years.
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Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: How to fix it? Let AIDS run its course, let the idiots fight over their differences until they wipe out large numbers of the other side. Once the population is reduced substantialy it will be decision time.
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If memory serves Africans have such high birth rates that it outpaces the aids epidemic. They are continuing to grow their impoverished, uneducated populations to the point of serious environmental degradation. Back in the 60s we did a lot of work with 3rd world nations to engineer better crops so that they could avoid famine, etc. The result has been that the land supports a higher population base then it could before the West stepped in. So you have even more people that need help in the future... The only solutions they have are emigration to western countries, and hollering for more western aid money. If they don't deal with their population boom... we are all in for a nasty ride.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 7:48:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: The problems of Africa stem from the backward people who populate it. While America was founded by people from relatively developed countries, Africa has NEVER shown much hope for developement. The height of African achievement was under colonialism and has been down hill ever since it ended. How to fix it? Let AIDS run its course, let the idiots fight over their differences until they wipe out large numbers of the other side. Once the population is reduced substantialy it will be decision time. Do we leave them alone, to continue the failed cultures that have accomplished almost nothing for many centuries? Do the developed counties once again impose a successful culture on them, destroy the failed tribal culture? During this wait, how do we continue to extract the resources that make the world operate? What WE DON'T DO is pour more money into that bottomless pit!
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Not true. Africans had complex kingdoms, mining techniques, relatively high rise buildings, even the use of steel, before the Europeans moved out of their mud huts. After them, the Muslims, beleive it or not, carried the torch of civilization for a thousand years. They are in the same situation that the Europeans were in after the fall of the Roman Empire. The colonials broke up the traditional matri- and patriarchal societies into abstract countries, and left people who have not progressed beyond feudalism to the modern age with a democratic system of government. They will wear themselves down until they become ready for a new system of government. These things take time.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 8:06:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 3:34:25 PM EDT
It's not really a problem unique to Africa. Yugoslavia has the problem. The Caucus/Caspian region has the problem. The Middle East has the problem. South-Central Asia has the problem. Hell, up until 1945, Western Europe had the problem. These folks have been fighting each other since the Cave Man (with Ringo Starr) days. It's either over religion, ethnicities, unlimited wants and limited resources, or just because they're plain pissed off with each other... but, in any case, unless someone else has been bigger and badder than them in the region (Soviets, Mongols, Romans), they've been wanting to bash each other's skulls in. Hell, I think the only reason Western Europe is over it is because they're so diverse, yet homogenized. They're also war-weary. The U.S. lost a lot of it's "tribal" warfare tendencies in the Civil War. Even then, people are still clannish and resent the hell out of the idea of any other clan getting something they can't have too. This may anger folks on the board, but I really think a lot of people get pissed off with the concept of welfare not just because they think people should work for money, but because they aren't getting a check too. Maybe it will take something on the scale of a World War to get Africa or Central Asia to the point where they're tired of fighting. Maybe it will take an infrastructure that allows mass transit and mass communication. However, for right now, they're all very diverse populations with diverse languages and diverse cultures, isolated from one another, with a lot of wants and not a lot of resources.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 4:35:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 5:12:36 PM EDT
It really is a bizarre continent. It is clearly going to get worse before it gets better, if possible. I wonder if Africa is foreshadowing for the world. I think the best course is to no longer aid them. If they have to pull themselves up, there will be great suffering, but it will be better in the end.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 5:44:54 PM EDT
[img]http://www.thehumorarchives.com/attachment_files/gunsa.jpg[/img] The end of Apartheid was a bad thing for South Africa.
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