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Posted: 1/19/2002 3:18:47 AM EDT
What kind of body armor are they wearing ? Do US Armed forces typically train to shoot single shots in battle? I noticed that hardly any of our guys were firing bursts or full auto except the SAW guys. . where the Somalis all were very trigger happy.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 3:31:36 AM EDT
The Rangers had RBA(Ranger Body Armor) No comment on the Delta body armor. Atleast some of the TFR guys i have spoken with, shot on semi auto mostly, to conserve ammunition.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:21:42 AM EDT
My question: What type of weapon did the pilot of the second Blackhawk to go down use? It looked like some type of HK. Sweet looking M14 in that scene also! Also if you were that pilot would you use the last bullet for yourself? You never know until you are in the position but you know it had to cross his mind. The scene of him grasping for the photo makes this point mute though. Well made movie. It follows the book well!
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:40:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tuukka: The Rangers had RBA(Ranger Body Armor) No comment on the Delta body armor.
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Could you elaborate on the RBA?? Why no comment on the Delta stuff ? Wheren't they using Class IV ceramic stuff ???
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:48:52 AM EDT
Ranger Body Armor: [img]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/rba.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/rba.htm[/url] High Performance Tactical Gear! [url]www.Lightfighter.com[/url]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 7:31:45 AM EDT
cnatra, i don´t know what the BA worn by the D guys in 93 was. PVFD304, since the movie hasnt opened here yet, i have only seen a crappy copy, but looked very much like an ordinary MP5A3.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 10:25:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 10:49:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PVFD304: My question: What type of weapon did the pilot of the second Blackhawk to go down use? It looked like some type of HK.
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I have not saw the movie, but according to the book I beleive it was Durant, and I think it was a MP5 type pistol. I could be wrong but that was the impression I got from the book, I think it kept jamming
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 10:53:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut: Another question. Is it me or did it seem like they altered the time line a little and the layout of the first crash site and the buildings they were hidden in? Or do I just have an image from the book that doesn't fit?
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The crash sight didn't seem right to me. But, then again I wasn't there so I don't know. In the book it looked like it was against a building.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 11:22:05 AM EDT
I don't know about the other services, but in the Marines, we rarely used the 3-shot burst. I do remember one exercise where we played with it, but 99% of the time, we used SEMI. It's an accuracy thing! [marines]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 11:23:47 AM EDT
The crashsites were not correct, especially the Super 61 was very different in real life. This is the crashsite of Super 64. [url]http://www.megapass.co.kr/%7Ehoranjoh/super62crash.jpg[/url] Sixgun357, in the book the weapon was an MP5K, but i have seen photos with MP5A3s, so both would be correct.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 11:58:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 12:06:04 PM EDT
I am in an air assault infantry unit, and all training I have received has been to use semi auto almost exclusively. Like jboze said, its an accuracy thing. Besides, why would you want to go FA or burst when you only have a 30 rd mag? Especially when the guy next to you has a saw or M240B/M60 with belt fed ammo?
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 1:01:11 PM EDT
Did you guys notice the cheesy Tasco reddots? Not quite right.......Aimpoints they weren't
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 2:33:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Did you guys notice the cheesy Tasco reddots? Not quite right.......Aimpoints they weren't
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Do these look like Tascos.... [;)] [img]http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v3/5/13/30/29551330bMMGTMTKXR_ph.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 3:18:28 PM EDT
OK New Question: Where was the movie filmed at?
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 3:26:13 PM EDT
Marocco
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 3:36:27 PM EDT
The website calls them MP-5s!!!! [url]http://www.spe.sony.com/movies/blackhawkdown/[/url] Click on the Alpha 1 Site, hi band width, Delta, Equipment, GUN
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 3:41:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Originally Posted By PVFD304: My question: What type of weapon did the pilot of the second Blackhawk to go down use? It looked like some type of HK.
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Looked like a MP5A3 to me.
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This it? [img]www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/images/mp5a3_2_r3_c2.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 3:42:06 PM EDT
I think in reality 160 SOAR pilots have the mp5 PDW with the side folding stock. john
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:35:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hondajohn: I think in reality 160 SOAR pilots have the mp5 PDW with the side folding stock. john
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As i said, i have seen pictures with some Nightstalkers holding MP5A3s, so i believe both qualify as correct.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:38:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:49:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 4:53:38 PM EDT by SF]
Originally Posted By hondajohn: I think in reality 160 SOAR pilots have the mp5 PDW with the side folding stock. john
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They do. Not sure they could get the PDWs for the film, and the MP5s are readily available for rentals. Few would notice the difference. Most of the operators I have worked with stay with semi and controlled pairs (double taps) unless executing a break contact or other immediate action drill. I just watched the drills at our CQB school this week and observed no full auto fire.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:14:14 PM EDT
What was the tape on the buttstocks of the rifles for?
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:18:46 PM EDT
The SOAR guys have MP5k-PDWs. Like a HK SP89 with a folding stock and full-auto capability. Durants MP5k supposedly got its receiver damaged causing the bolt to bind and jam. Notice a lot of the skinnies have G3s besides AKs. I also saw at least 1 krinkov.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:20:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Canooger: What was the tape on the buttstocks of the rifles for?
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If you are asking about the M16s it was to hold on the improvised top mounted sling.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:31:56 PM EDT
Again - 18 vs 19 dead?
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:34:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 5:35:39 PM EDT by SF]
Originally Posted By Tate: Again - 18 vs 19 dead?
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I believe that 19 includes the one who died in a mortar attack a couple of days later.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 2:26:36 AM EDT
the rangers (as well as other infantry units) typically use auto fire to either initiate an ambush, assault through an ambush, or to break contact. auto fire is not very accurate. the only guys firing full auto will be those manning MGs M60, M249, or the dastardly M2.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 5:44:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF:
Originally Posted By Tate: Again - 18 vs 19 dead?
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I believe that 19 includes the one who died in a mortar attack a couple of days later.
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SF is correct. The 19th KIA was Matt Rierson. SARguy
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 7:13:34 AM EDT
SF- Do you(or anyone else)know what kind of mount/red-dot scope set-up were MSG Gordon/SFC Shugart using on that M-14 at the second crash site? I've got an M1A and would like to duplicate that set-up.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 7:25:08 AM EDT
Why did the US flag on the shoulders of their uniforms appear backwards? I always thought the stars were in the top left corner. In the film they were in the top right corner. Bob B
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 7:36:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2002 7:40:08 AM EDT by Steve-in-VA]
I believe it was an MP5k, from what I remember in the book. In the movie, I think for sure it was a k.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 8:33:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:35:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2002 9:37:42 AM EDT by SF]
Originally Posted By sgtstinger: SF- Do you(or anyone else)know what kind of mount/red-dot scope set-up were MSG Gordon/SFC Shugart using on that M-14 at the second crash site? I've got an M1A and would like to duplicate that set-up.
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I do not know where that setup came from. I have not served in that unit, but no one I know has ever mentioned a sniper using an Aimpoint on an M1A/M14. On the other hand, as I was watching the skinnies come in close to the helicopter, I cannot imagine trying to take them on with any magnification scope, like the Leatherwood ART on the M21, or the Ultra, or the 3.5-10 LR M1/M3. A red dot scope would work well for that. Personally, I consider sub-50 meter daylight engagements to be a fine environment for iron sights. Since the guys at that unit have access to a wide variety of non-standard items, it is possible they could have put that configuration together. On the other hand, it could have been a case of a Hollywood prop manager using what he had. Bottom line: I don't know, but it sure makes for some interesting speculation. When I got the official briefing, the actual crash sites were much more congested (not neatly in the middle of intersections) and Shugart and Gordon were not dropped directly on top of the site. They correctly portrayed the radio traffic between MG Garrison and the operators, but they were inserted a short distance away and quickly cornered by the skinnies in a building they had to blast a new back door out of before getting to Mike Durant. Durant has stated that one of the operators was hit and went down shortly after arrival, but was unable to state for sure which of the operators it was. The other operator, according to Durant, returned to check on him a few times, and returned to the helicopter a couple of times to salvage weapons and ammo from the crew. The final scene, where the remaining operator gives Durant an M16 and wishes him good luck before going out for the last time is not Hollywood but actually happened, according to Durant. A fine testimony to two outstanding soldiers who knew what they were going into and a good example of American spec ops soldiers in combat. Sorry I couldn't answer your question. (Edited for a spelling error)
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:39:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PVFD304: Also if you were that pilot would you use the last bullet for yourself? You never know until you are in the position but you know it had to cross his mind. The scene of him grasping for the photo makes this point mute though.
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If you follow this link there are audio files of the actual guys involved. Michael Durant addresses this question. [url]http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/audio.asp[/url]
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 11:02:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ESP: Do US Armed forces typically train to shoot single shots in battle?
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I can only speak for the Navy and Marine, the answer would be yes. At best 3 rd burst or double tapping. Marine rifle quals if I recall is done in single shot. In an urban combat situation, they train using 3rds burst and single shots. When you have a squad shooting single shots or burst, its like full auto fire to guys on the receiving end, specially if it is disciplined well placed shots. It conserves ammo.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 2:07:06 PM EDT
in the book it was a mp5k in the movie it was a mp5 a3
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 2:20:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bobwrench: Why did the US flag on the shoulders of their uniforms appear backwards? I always thought the stars were in the top left corner. In the film they were in the top right corner. Bob B
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In a combat mission the patch is worn on the right shoulder. The field of blue is pointing forward to show that the "flag is NOT in retreat" medcop
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 8:31:36 PM EDT
when the soldiers are preparing to go out on the initial mission one solder tells the other not to bother with the body armor, night goggles, and other equipment. I don't knom about you all but if I was going into a hostile area I would wear body armor and take any and all equipment I thought might come in handy. Especially since they were not walking with the gear. It'd be a totally different story if I had to walk 10 miles with all this gear. Is this an accurate portrayal of our soldiers (how in the movie they thought the mission was no big deal and didn't want to carry extra equipment) or is it hollywood ?
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:03:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: when the soldiers are preparing to go out on the initial mission one solder tells the other not to bother with the body armor, night goggles, and other equipment. I don't knom about you all but if I was going into a hostile area I would wear body armor and take any and all equipment I thought might come in handy. Especially since they were not walking with the gear. It'd be a totally different story if I had to walk 10 miles with all this gear. Is this an accurate portrayal of our soldiers (how in the movie they thought the mission was no big deal and didn't want to carry extra equipment) or is it hollywood ?
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Philadelphia_GunMan: First, hindsight is 20/20. No offense, but anyone can Monday morning quarterback. Second, the load of a combat Ranger or SF soldier is heavy enough without taking stuff you have not needed on several previous missions. Most probably carried max weight by adding ammo as they deleted items they deemed superfluous. Packing out is evolutionary. Want to bet what they took on subsequent trips? Once, I griped to my team sergeant about schlepping what seemed to me an excessive number of IV bags on a mission. Our AVERAGE ruck weight was 137 lbs. Plus weapon, LBE, etc. Strap that on sometime and try to be as tactical as you can. We had a soldier stabbed in a remote area of Central America and my medic put 13 bags in him before he finally bled out and flatlined. Next time we went out, I took the bags AND asked for a field transfusion kit to carry. There but for the grace of God, go I. Finally, if you have ever been fastroping, you know that extra weight equals extra stress and burns on the hands. Having personally worn the RBA on a fastrope, given the mission profile and previous snatches, I would have probably have left the plates out myself, and maybe the NVGs as well. Not a criticism of you yourself, as I see this all of the time. Someone (usually who has never humped a ruck) always has a small, new high-speed item or ten for you to carry. Guess what? 100 lbs of lightweight gear still weighs 100 lbs. It is very hard to make a call on whether the guys were wrong or not without having been through some of this for yourself.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 5:56:18 AM EDT
SF- I can relate about heavy rucks. I was in the 7th ID(Light) and the 10th Mountain Div. In fact, I was in the 10th Mountain when the mess in Somalia happened, but wasn't in Somalia. We used to have to do 6 and 12 mile road-marches all the time. Even did a 25-miler @ Ft. Ord. If it wasn't on the packing list, most guys didn't carry it. However, most knew that there'd be alot of "extras" we'd have to carry if we ever deployed. So, there was less complaining than you'd expect, but there was always a "crybaby" or two in the bunch. The heaviest ruck I ever had to personally carry weighed about 100lbs. I was carrying everything I needed(including ammo, pyro, MRE's, water, and sleeping bag) to live in the field for 4 days during the field problem portion of PLDC at Ft. Bragg. We had to pack EVERYTHING on the list. We got air-inserted at one location, then had to march a few miles to our patrol base location. Cold, wet weather to boot. Not much fun at all... Yes, there were things I didn't use and could have been left behind. There were also things that I wished I had taken, but didn't make the trip. I'm sure my limited experiences with heavy rucks pale in comparison with some of the things the Special Forces folks have to do on a regular basis.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:33:17 AM EDT
New question: Did anyone else see a suppressed AR in one of the helo scenes?
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:45:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PVFD304: New question: Did anyone else see a suppressed AR in one of the helo scenes?
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The observer has it in the Shugart/Gordon sequence.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:58:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtstinger: SF- I can relate about heavy rucks. I was in the 7th ID(Light) and the 10th Mountain Div. In fact, I was in the 10th Mountain when the mess in Somalia happened, but wasn't in Somalia. We used to have to do 6 and 12 mile road-marches all the time. Even did a 25-miler @ Ft. Ord. If it wasn't on the packing list, most guys didn't carry it. However, most knew that there'd be alot of "extras" we'd have to carry if we ever deployed. So, there was less complaining than you'd expect, but there was always a "crybaby" or two in the bunch. The heaviest ruck I ever had to personally carry weighed about 100lbs. I was carrying everything I needed(including ammo, pyro, MRE's, water, and sleeping bag) to live in the field for 4 days during the field problem portion of PLDC at Ft. Bragg. We had to pack EVERYTHING on the list. We got air-inserted at one location, then had to march a few miles to our patrol base location. Cold, wet weather to boot. Not much fun at all... Yes, there were things I didn't use and could have been left behind. There were also things that I wished I had taken, but didn't make the trip. I'm sure my limited experiences with heavy rucks pale in comparison with some of the things the Special Forces folks have to do on a regular basis.
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Roger that. Good experience in the 7th and 10th. The light forces carry a lot of the deployment burden these days. When I was at USSOCOM, some geek who had never put on a ruck was always trying to get us to buy his new widget for the operators. It got to the point, I just brought a heavy ruck to the briefing and asked them what it would replace that we were already carrying. I became a zero sum game-to add five lbs., you have to take out five. For those who have not done this, we are not talking about adding another set of batteries for the Gameboy or a fresh set of BDUs. It became whether you ate more than one MRE per day, or got to change socks more than every other day. The medic and commo guys are constantly giving you part of their gear to hump. And since you might need it, (IVs, antenna kits, etc.) you take it. I tell the guys to load up for a 30 minute snatch/security mission with a fast rope infil and vehicle exfil, they will certainly pack differently from an 18 hour urban urban combat mission with a walking extraction. Not that we won't bring water, frags, smoke, WPs, Claymores, etc., we would just configure differently. BTW, IRT the earlier comment about what the medics took, medics always bring a basic load of trauma gear. Only thing to add on a longer mission is more long term care stuff. I always believed in the old "travel light, freeze at night" comment, and was widely known as CPT Gadget for the stuff I brought, but you only take a BIG load down a long fastrope once and you learn (while the blisters heal and you buy 2 pair of new gloves).
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 8:22:40 AM EDT
I Don't remember if the book specified or not, but did Shugart (or was it Gordon) really carry the M-14 that day? Just curious...
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 8:39:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scipio: I Don't remember if the book specified or not, but did Shugart (or was it Gordon) really carry the M-14 that day? Just curious...
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Yes.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 8:53:29 AM EDT
I have seen pictures of Navy SEAL M14's mounting an Aimpoint Comp M-XD (what the Army calls the M68 CCO) on the Brookfield mount. The Aimpoints shown in BHD the movie were Comp M/MLs. These weren't around at the time (93) so this is a technical gaffe. The Aimpoint du jour at the time used by both Rangers and Delta was typically the 3000 (still available), which was mounted on top of the carrying handle as shown in BHD. JAW
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 9:47:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 10:07:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ESP: What kind of body armor are they wearing?
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D-Boys were wearing TP1-E Body armor. Manufactured by Armour of America (AoA). If you like I can take a digital pic of one and send it to you. This would give you an unobstructed view. Let me know.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 10:57:03 AM EDT
Good Discussion, guys. A lot of good info being shared without any "attitude". Like the ar 15.com of old. Pretty refreshing change from some of the discussion boards these days, where in some cases it breaks down into the "I didn't think of it so it sucks!" syndrome.
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