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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:11:37 AM EDT
[#1]
Well, I think my point has been made.
the Israel apologists going down just about EVERY rabbit trail. other than actually addressing the action of executing this individual. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:12:42 AM EDT
[#2]
OH BTW Gman... if you want to pay for their flight I would gladly have any member of the IDF Mossad etc over for dinner....( remind me not to cook a pork roast!!!)
As for the PLO types....I might invite them out to the range..Accidents do happen you know! |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:15:04 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: OH BTW Gman... if you want to pay for their flight I would gladly have any member of the IDF Mossad etc over for dinner....( remind me not to cook a pork roast!!!) As for the PLO types....I might invite them out to the range..Accidents do happen you know! Your house, your rules, dude!!!!!!!! Enjoy!!!!!!!! [:D] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:15:32 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Well, I think my point has been made. the Israel apologists going down just about EVERY rabbit trail. other than actually addressing the action of executing this individual. State of war. Target identified. Target Located. Target Negated. Thread topic addressed. Cerberus Out... |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:16:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: G-man. I believe the charges against [b]Osama Bin Laden[/b] that we are fighting a War on Terrorism over, were brought by...(drum roll, please)...the People who seek to assassinate [u]him[/u]! NOT EXACTLY an unbiased source. [>]:)] Eric - The charges against binLaden have been validated by the U.N. (of all people) and a dozen other nations. We have a video taped confession by bin laden. We have documents from teh terrorists cars linking them to bin laden. The evidence against bin laden is OVERWHELMING. As a lawyer, you should know that the case against this palestianian (the ONLY evidence against him being from his murderers) and the case against bin laden are WORLDS apart. [rolleyes] OVERWHELMING? |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:17:13 AM EDT
[#6]
Is execution wrong? No. Garandman you are in for a scolding at the throne. Planerench out.
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:42:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Well, I think my point has been made. the Israel apologists going down just about EVERY rabbit trail. other than actually addressing the action of executing this individual. No, the only point you've demonstrated is directly on top of your head. Political and military assasination is NOT terrorism. We used assasination in VietNam and I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. The Israelis did NOT indiscriminately attack civilians to spread terror, thus they are not guilty of terrorism. They performed an assasination of a military officer. Frankly, I think the press and our government gets this wrong a lot, same as you have. For instance, the attack on the USS Cole was NOT terrorism. It was a geurilla strike on a military target. Now, those same people who did the attack HAVE done terrorist attacks, including the WTC attack, but the strike on the Cole is not a terrorist act by definition. Neither are assasinations of Israeli military personnel in uniform by Hezbollah. Terrorism, by classical definition, is against civilians. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:42:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Post from garandman -
The charges against binLaden have been validated by the U.N. (of all people) and a dozen other nations. 'Validated by the U.N.' BwaHaHaHaHaHa, that's rich, g-man! I'll bet that in all your born days, such a sentence has never escaped from you before! So 'validated by the U.N.' takes the place of a fair trial with witnesses and impartial juries? We have a video taped confession by bin laden. Sez who? It's already been claimed by the Arab Street (his lawyer) that the tapes have been doctored, didn't you know? You really should listen to the Arab Street more, you know. We have documents from teh terrorists cars linking them to bin laden. Once again, doctored by the very same folks who are bringing the charges against this poor man, as well! And I'm certain that any evidence that US Armed Forces discovered in Afghanistan that would tend not to incrminate Bin Laden would be conveniently destroyed by Israel, er, I mean, the United States! The evidence against bin laden is OVERWHELMING. Really, garandman, don't you understand that [b]no[/b] fair and impartial trial has been conducted in this matter, as yet. Any call by you for 'death to Osama' should be handled as a terroristic threat by the proper authorities. As a lawyer, you should know that the case against this palestianian (the ONLY evidence against him being from his murderers) and the case against bin laden are WORLDS apart. Only in your mind! Once again your using 'buzz words' like 'case' and 'evidence' to confuse us into thinking that a trial has already been conducted and that Osama has been sentenced and is awaiting execution! Please desist! Does that sound more like an attorney to you? My real views: Screw the law, burn the bastid! And burn his friends in Islamdom, wherever they may be found crouching! Eric The(Ah,IFeelSoMuchBetter,Now)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:45:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: A nice idea if it would work, but both sides are involved in the kind of trouble that threatens our national intertests. If we hadn't chosen a side already, the other side wouldn't be pissed off at us. It is their fight, let the winner use the spoils as he sees fit. I have no problem buying oil from Israelis, Arabs, or whoever possesses it. Our national interest in the area is oil. As long as the supply remains cheap and abundant, it doesn't matter from whom we are buying it. Because Israel is clearly in the right on this issue... You are saying, IOW, the Israelis are good and the Palestinians/Arabs are bad. It is not that simple. Garandman was spot on in his analysis of the situation. You have two groups bent on imposing their will on each other. Neither has a spotless moral record. One side may be worse than the other, but that doesn't obligate us to support the one that is the lighter shade of gray. We fell into all kinds of political-military tarpits using that thinking during the Cold War. As long as the government of any particular little shyttehole of a country wasn't Communist, we went ahead and supported them; thereby generating hatred for the US in those areas that lingers to this day. Unconditional support of Israel will earn us the same dividends. We gain the goodwill of nations everywhere who seek to do rightly, and we generate fear in all those who would consider doing wrong. When the world knows that the US will swing our Big Stick to defend what is right, we are all far better off. Other than the Israelis themselves, just whose good will do we win? Their good will, apparently, includes spying on us and attacking one of our naval vessels. Good will is an intangible in any case. This country should concentrate on what it does best, being a mercantile power. That big stick should protect our commercial interests and our physical safety. Other nations should be our customer base. A successful merchant does not get involved in squabbles between his customers. He maintains a functioning business relationship with both and thereby prospers. We should do what is best for us and let others sort out their own differences. Edited to fix quote codes |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:55:27 AM EDT
[#10]
Well, I think my point has been made. In spades, Brother, in spades! And what a thoroughly upsetting point it is, too, that the way the United States is handling its actions against Bin Laden and his terrorist group is [b]no better[/b] than the way Israel handles its actions against suicide bombers, suicide bomb makers, suicide bomb financiers, suicide bomb cheerleaders, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, et al. I'm thoroughly disgusted by US actions in this matter. I propose that a bill of impeachment against our so-called President Bush be drawn up immediately by, say, someone of the stature and reputation of Harry Browne! The longer that moral reprobate occupies the White House, the longer it will be before we can seek the forgiveness and make amends to our Middle Eastern brethren who have had the moral courage to put up with our shennanigans since we so foolishly baited them with commercial buildings full of civilians! Eric The(SurelyIJest)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 8:20:14 AM EDT
[#11]
El-Karmi was a Hamas member who planned the murders of non-combatants and personally had their blood on his hands.
Israel took him out cleanly with no harm done to anybody else. Excellent job. They should repeat it on the rest of Hamas. Morally speaking, he was their mortal enemy, had already proved himself by his own actions, and if he remained alive, would have continued to murder. Quoted: garandman, please delete this horrible thread! Jesus would want you to. [u]Seriously[/u]. Why should he delete the thread? You are winning this argument hands down. Are you afraid of the discussion of this topic? If so, I cannot understand why. Ultimately, this is only a BBS, and the opinions expressed therein are unlikely to affect the real world. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 8:26:53 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Quoted: garandman, please delete this horrible thread! Jesus would want you to. [u]Seriously[/u]. Why should he delete the thread? You are winning this argument hands down. Are you afraid of the discussion of this topic? If so, I cannot understand why. Ultimately, this is only a BBS, and the opinions expressed therein are unlikely to affect the real world. He only wanted to save him the embarassment of posting from the wrong side of this thread. It tends to expose what the originator of the thread really feels and what his predjudices are. . Just my opinion, FWIW. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 8:43:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Well, I think my point has been made. the Israel apologists going down just about EVERY rabbit trail. other than actually addressing the action of executing this individual. Garandman, here's some precedent for Israel's actions you might find acceptable: Deuteronomy 7: 7:1 When the Lord your God brings you to the land that you are going to occupy and forces out many nations before you-Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations more numerous and powerful than you- 7:2 and he delivers them over to you and you attack them, [b]you must utterly annihilate them.[/b] Make no covenant with them [b]nor show them compassion![/b] 7:16 You will overwhelm all the people whom the Lord your God is about to deliver over to you; [b]you must not pity them[/b] nor worship their gods, for that will be a snare to you. 7:17 If you think, "These nations are more numerous than I-how can I dispossess them?" 7:18 you must not fear them. You must carefully recall what the Lord your God did to Pharaoh and all Egypt, 7:19 the great afflictions you saw, the signs and wonders, the strong hand and extended arm by which he brought you out-thus the Lord your God will do to all the people you fear. 7:20 Furthermore, he will release the hornet among them until the very last ones who hide from you perish. 7:21 You must not tremble in their presence, for the Lord your God, who is present among you, is a great and awesome God. 7:22 He, the God who leads you, will expel the nations little by little. You must not overcome them all at once lest the wild animals overrun you. 7:23 The Lord your God will give them over to you; [b]He will trouble them with great difficulty until they are destroyed[/b]. 7:24 He will hand over their kings to you and you will erase their very names from memory. [b]Nobody will be able to stand before you until you annihilate them.[/b] --- Based on Israel's past, I think they're being mighty reserved in their treatment of Palestinian terrorists. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 8:53:11 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Well, I think my point has been made. the Israel apologists going down just about EVERY rabbit trail. other than actually addressing the action of executing this individual. garandman, there are no "Israel Apologist." Only those with a 'fair and balanced' view. Anyone not agreeing with their fair and balanced view must be antisemetic, pro Palestenian and aligned with every Arab in the world but with a special fondness for those participating in the attacks of 9/11. [smoke] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 9:02:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Perhaps unbiased discussion is not possbile with the memories of 9/11 so fresh and vivid.
More probably truly unbiased discussion is not possible at any time. However, I do hope a day will come when a discussion of the Palestenian and Israeli problems can be discussed in a more unbiased manner. The larger question is Muslim fundamentalism and how to cope. This problem must one day be addressed by all of us. Perhaps a meager start could be deciding if 100% of Arabs and Muslims are to be colored by the less than 1% (Guess) that are terrorists. There are some 'pro-gun' people that color the majority with their hatred of virtually everything. I speak of those who are truly "White Supremacist - anti black - antisemetic and anti virtually everything I beleive in. What percentage of gun owners share and embrace their views ?? 1% ?? [smoke] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 9:06:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Not only would I let them in my home, I would have put a bullet in his head myself. If someone had put a bullet in uncle Ho's head in 1959 things would have been a lot nicers in the 60's. If someone had put a bullet in Fidel's head, I could be on a nice Cuban beach right now. If we had put a bullet in Osalami's head we would have 3,000 more alive Americans right now. You may not like the fact the assassination is a tool of global politics, but it is a fact of lifel. Hell, if you are a Klingon, it is the only way to get a promotion.
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Posted: 1/15/2002 9:12:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: garandman, please delete this horrible thread! Jesus would want you to. [u]Seriously[/u]. Why should he delete the thread? You are winning this argument hands down. Are you afraid of the discussion of this topic? If so, I cannot understand why. Ultimately, this is only a BBS, and the opinions expressed therein are unlikely to affect the real world. He only wanted to save him the embarassment of posting from the wrong side of this thread. It tends to expose what the originator of the thread really feels and what his predjudices are. . Just my opinion, FWIW. I don't know that Eric the Hun has ever wanted to save anyone from embarassment. [}:D] I suppose it is possible. This is a free forum in a free country, and anyone is entitled to speak his opinions. While I disagree with Garandman on this issue, I don't consider him an anti-Semite. He is entitled to his opinion, delivered in his usual gentle style. [}:D] If the rest of us don't like his opinion, we are free to try and change it, and in fact, he himself has said that he is open to that. Making assumptions about the motives of people is unfortunate. While sometimes necessary, the less we have of it, the better. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 9:16:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Islam is for the destruction of its enemies in general and Isreal in particular. The only thing "radical" about Islamic terrorist groups is they took their religion seriously. Muslims may not all be evil but Islam is. Planerench out.
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Posted: 1/15/2002 10:10:54 AM EDT
[#19]
ckapsl,
I didn't say g-man was an anti-semite. I merely said he had predjudices. We all do. G-man's beef is not really with Isreal, it is with Judasim. He has staed before that he believes they must convert to Christianity to be saved from hell or some such fate. I am not trying to quote him as I would get it wrong and look as if I really cared enough to remember exactly what he stands for. He has his beliefs based on his own life experience & teachings of others waether they be correct or not. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 12:05:41 PM EDT
[#20]
They can all rot.I hate the Israelis and the Palestinians.In fact I pretty much hate everyone.
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Posted: 1/15/2002 12:07:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: In fact I pretty much hate everyone. I can testify to this.[}:D] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 2:36:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Our national interest in the area is oil. As long as the supply remains cheap and abundant, it doesn't matter from whom we are buying it. I don't know how old you are, but the current supply of oil is neither cheap nor abundant. The price is set artificially high by OPEC and cheerfully paid by the industrialized West to "promote stability" in the region by allowing relatively friendly governments to remain in power. The supply is "abundant" only to the degree that OPEC keeps filling up tankers. If/when they decide to turn off the tap, see if you are singing the same song. You are saying, IOW, the Israelis are good and the Palestinians/Arabs are bad. It is not that simple. Garandman was spot on in his analysis of the situation. You have two groups bent on imposing their will on each other. Neither has a spotless moral record. One side may be worse than the other, but that doesn't obligate us to support the one that is the lighter shade of gray. We fell into all kinds of political-military tarpits using that thinking during the Cold War. As long as the government of any particular little shyttehole of a country wasn't Communist, we went ahead and supported them; thereby generating hatred for the US in those areas that lingers to this day. Yeah. And how many of them are better off hating us than suffering under Communism? Where are all the happy Marxist Utopia's in Latin America? Only one left, and that won't last long. We won. Unconditional support of Israel will earn us the same dividends. Other than the Israelis themselves, just whose good will do we win? A contradiction here? Get involved and they'll hate the US. Don't get involved and they'll still hate the US. Sounds like we end up with the same result whether we stand up or lay down. Better to stand up for our own interests. As a nation, the United States [b]has[/b] earned the goodwill of most of the world. These nations know we can be counted on in times of trouble and we will obey the rule of law and common decency in times of peace. We have fed and clothed the world and made it a safer place for [b]all[/b] who live on this planet, whether they love us for it or not! The United States has [b]earned[/b] the right to hold it's national head high, with the price paid in American blood, sweat and dollars. The world knows this, and, sometimes grudgingly, respects us for it. The only kind of people who seem to really hate the US (besides the French) are those who seek to impose a very narrow, backward way of life on their subject populations, and the world. Communism, Facism, Radical Islam and an assortment of other ills are in conflict with the US philosophy of freedom of choice and self governance. History has proven, and will continue to prove, that our way is best. Many nations realize that and will come along willingly. Others will not and will be consigned to that Great Ash Heap of History that Reagan spoke of. God help them on their way! |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 6:23:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: ckapsl, I didn't say g-man was an anti-semite. I merely said he had predjudices. We all do. G-man's beef is not really with Isreal, it is with Judasim. He has staed before that he believes they must convert to Christianity to be saved from hell or some such fate. I am not trying to quote him as I would get it wrong and look as if I really cared enough to remember exactly what he stands for. He has his beliefs based on his own life experience & teachings of others waether they be correct or not. Gun-fan, I didn't mean to imply that was what you said. My remarks were general, not aimed at you personally, sorry if you felt that. I don't dispute that Garandman has his own unique and strongly felt views on the world, and they influence his perception of specific issues like Israel. My words of caution are that, at least on this board, investigating the background or motivation of someone, invariably degenerates into name calling. Hence I prefer to stay away from it altogether. My 2 cents. |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:49:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Hahahaha WEEEEEE!
God I love these discussions. Garandman, you'll never change their minds, so you might as well give up. As for me, well, you guys know what I think. I am arrogant, easily angered, one mean SOB, and I believe violence would suit me just fine if I were involved in that clusterfuck over there. If I were a Jew, I'd love to snipe one of those greasy towelheads. If I were a Palistinian, I'd love to see Israeli body parts plasterd all over a wall. But I am neither. If a Palistinain and an Israeli were both drowning in the surf in front of my condo and I only had time to save one, I'd turn around, crack open a brew, and see what's on TV. Best wishes Bigshooter |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 7:58:05 PM EDT
[#25]
dude garandman you nned help. You sound like the intel officers on the vietnam war movies that get angry becuase the soldiers kill all the bad guys in a battle instead of risking thier lives to get one of em alive for questioning.
wake up g'man they have somthing going on over there called WAR! ever heard of that before? the media tries to make it look like a battle here and there with the whole sentiment being that they are just in disagreement and that they are avoiding war. News flash they ARE at WAR. If you were a military commander and you had 2 choices on the situation what would it be? you kill the S.O.B. or you risk the lives of your men to capture a KNOWN killer and terrorist so that HE can have a fair trial? thats bullshit. I wonder how that guy's victims felt when they were "executed" men women and CHILDREN! did they get a goddamned fair trial? HELL NO they didn't. That man got absolutely what he deserved. anyone who says otherwise can fuck themselves. [pissed] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 8:26:15 PM EDT
[#26]
If it isn't ok for the Israelis to execute palestinian terrorist leaders without trial, etc., then it isn't ok for us to do the exact same thing to al'quaeda terrorist leaders.
Should we be looking to arrest Osama Bin Laden and bring him to trial? |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 1:41:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: If it isn't ok for the Israelis to execute palestinian terrorist leaders without trial, etc., then it isn't ok for us to do the exact same thing to al'quaeda terrorist leaders. Should we be looking to arrest Osama Bin Laden and bring him to trial? You got the point. Someone is using double standard in judging someone else actions. And the blindness of their antisemitic prejudices don't them allow to see it! Antisemitic, btw, doesn't mean to be a Nazist and to work in an extermination camp and put yellow David's stars on the clothes of jewish people. In a very interesting article on an italian newspaper of some years ago, there was the explaination of two kind of antisemitism (both of religious origin, since in Italy there are 80% of cristians...): -the real antisemitism: the one that, for exampled, issued the Racial Laws in 1938, that helped the nazist to send to the extermination camps Italian Jews. -the little antisemitism: people of this kind, usually with a very radical catholic education, would disapprove antisemitics of the first kind. But this people is the one that harass jewish people in many ways: with speech, with education, in the church (like the statement, that was eliminated only few years ago, during the missa that indicated jews as a "perfid jew"), sanctioning them when they want to express legitimation of their worship. As an example, I can quote an episode of 6 years ago, when a religion teacher in a grammar school ordered to start the lesson praying. The only jewish pupil asked if he could pray chanting "Israel Shema'" while the other people were chanting "Ave Maria" (or something like that...). The teacher forbid it, and punished the pupil. There was a big rumour about this facts in the Italian parlament, but the comment of the president of the Low Chamber (On. Irene Pivetti, a very right cristian foundamentalist) was that "it was not so much a big injustice, and that this was too much ado for nothing". This people is the fertile humus on which the antisemite of the first kind can find support and old and new Hitlerdoms grew and can grow up again. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 5:18:43 AM EDT
[#28]
That's good point, that escapes many here.
Anti-semitism often manifests itself in nothing more than slight double standards. Little things, like needing to be beat over the head with facts, in order to see a pro-Israeli/Jewish point of argument. And even then, refusing to see it. It's a type of denial. The person doing it isn't even aware. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 6:16:34 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: That's good point, that escapes many here. Anti-semitism often manifests itself in nothing more than slight double standards. Little things, like needing to be beat over the head with facts, in order to see a pro-Israeli/Jewish point of argument. And even then, refusing to see it. It's a type of denial. The person doing it isn't even aware. You're right. Premises to this post: I am not referring to anyone. So flame mode is off! In the Italian TV, on a private channel, there is a TV show about history. They showed how the Gestapo was working: pratically with the help of ALL the German citizen. You can imagine to see all Germans making the Nazi salute, thirsty of blood and dressed with the black uniform of the SS. Nothing at all. They showed the case of a German woman that was considered by her neighbour as strange. The Gestapo received several letters that stated she was lesbian. Results: the woman was interned in Dachau and died. They interviewed one of the woman that signed one of the letters. Se recognized her signature, she said that the woman was strange, but she didn't feel guilty of anything: "I didn't kill anyone with my hands. I didn't do anything bad..." The deepest horror that came from the Nazism is that all the abomination of the dictactorial system and of the extermination camps (not to talk about the war...) came simply from common people and little bureocrats. Nothing more, nothing less. This is evident (I didn't read but I will do it very soon) from the report of the Eichman trial in Israel: the executor of the Hitler dream to find a "solution" for the jews was an accountancy bureocrat. But the subject of his accountancy job was the DEATH... |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 6:39:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: That's good point, that escapes many here. Anti-semitism often manifests itself in nothing more than slight double standards. Little things, like needing to be beat over the head with facts, in order to see a pro-Israeli/Jewish point of argument. And even then, refusing to see it. It's a type of denial. The person doing it isn't even aware. Delete the word "anti semitism" and insert any of the following - "racism, sexism, homophobia, and the dozens of other buzzwords of the left" - and you'd have an EXCELLENT plank of the Democratic Party right there MM. ALL those terms are used predominantly to SILENCE the opposing opinion by demonizing them. [size=4]IT NEVER CEASES TO AMAZE ME HOW MUCH OF THE MARXIST TERMINOLOGY AND AGENDA HAS BEEN SWALLOWED TO THE CURRENT GENERATION[/SIZE=4] People who get worked up about "mean words" are wusses. Short of physically harming someone, GET OVER IT. Be a man. Take the abuse your opinion earns you. And drop the demonizing words like "anti semitism." |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 6:46:52 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Anti-semitism often manifests itself in... Little things, like needing to be beat over the head with facts, in order to see a pro-Israeli/Jewish point of argument. And even then, refusing to see it. So anyone who disagrees with you is an anti Semite??? iF I DON'T SEE IT YOU WAY, I'M AN ANTI SEMITE????? [size=6]UNREAL. UN-FREAKIN-REAL[/SIZE=6] YOU HAVE JUST COMPLETELY DESTROYED any CREDIBILITY YOU EVER HOPED TO HAVE WITH THAT STATEMENT. Put down the bong, MM, and take a breath of fresh air, and clear your head. You sound EXACTLY like Jesse Jackson. EXACTLY. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 7:17:18 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Anti-semitism often manifests itself in nothing more than slight double standards. Little things, like needing to be beat over the head with facts, in order to see a pro-Israeli/Jewish point of argument. And even then, refusing to see it. It's a type of denial. The person doing it isn't even aware. Major, I believe your argument is valid. However, I believe your argument is equally valid when applied to the opposing view. I do believe the words antisemitism, antisemetic, anti-Arab and anti-Muslim should be even more carefully hoarded than your last three rounds of ammunition. It is very hard for me to forget that I was first called an antisemite on this board while discussing this topic. (The first time in my life !) I believe that one can even be anti-Israel and not be antisemetic. Israel is a country and it is the country to which I most often refer. Jews are a people living in most parts of the world. In my mind there is a difference and a large difference. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 7:32:13 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: That's good point, that escapes many here. Anti-semitism often manifests itself in nothing more than slight double standards. Little things, like needing to be beat over the head with facts, in order to see a pro-Israeli/Jewish point of argument. And even then, refusing to see it. It's a type of denial. The person doing it isn't even aware. Delete the word "anti semitism" and insert any of the following - "racism, sexism, homophobia, and the dozens of other buzzwords of the left" - and you'd have an EXCELLENT plank of the Democratic Party right there MM. ALL those terms are used predominantly to SILENCE the opposing opinion by demonizing them. [size=4]IT NEVER CEASES TO AMAZE ME HOW MUCH OF THE MARXIST TERMINOLOGY AND AGENDA HAS BEEN SWALLOWED TO THE CURRENT GENERATION[/SIZE=4] People who get worked up about "mean words" are wusses. Short of physically harming someone, GET OVER IT. Be a man. Take the abuse your opinion earns you. And drop the demonizing words like "anti semitism." If you aren't an antisemite, why are you so scared by this word? |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 7:35:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Anti-semitism often manifests itself in nothing more than slight double standards. Little things, like needing to be beat over the head with facts, in order to see a pro-Israeli/Jewish point of argument. And even then, refusing to see it. It's a type of denial. The person doing it isn't even aware. Major, I believe your argument is valid. However, I believe your argument is equally valid when applied to the opposing view. I do believe the words antisemitism, antisemetic, anti-Arab and anti-Muslim should be even more carefully hoarded than your last three rounds of ammunition. It is very hard for me to forget that I was first called an antisemite on this board while discussing this topic. (The first time in my life !) I believe that one can even be anti-Israel and not be antisemetic. Israel is a country and it is the country to which I most often refer. Jews are a people living in most parts of the world. In my mind there is a difference and a large difference. There is a difference in the moment someone can put his/her "anti" point of view without any ethnic-religious motivation. It's simple if the "anti" person is really objective: you need to talk about tactics or politics or social point of view. If you put in the conversation things painting a whole group as the same (and you don't justify it...) and you show prejudices, this is something else... do you agree? |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 7:47:43 AM EDT
[#35]
Agree ?
Yes, I do agree. However in your post above a reply is likely to be based on emotion. (...why are you so scared of this word ?) I do not believe a fear of the word "antisemetism" is indicative of an "antisemetic." No, I believe the contrary is probably more true. I know of few subtle bigots and racist. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 7:57:50 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: If you aren't an antisemite, why are you so scared by this word? Do you REALLY have to ask this question??Really??? I'll answer with a question.... Why are YOU afraid of me calling you IN A PUBLIC forum a murder, rapist, racist, wife beater, bigot, homophobe even when we all know those allegations PROBABLY are not true???? Its called FALSE ACCUSATION, and MY charachter is at stake. In May, I'm gonna meet MANY of the people in this forum, and your use of slanderous terms like "anti semite" MAY skew peoples perceptions of me, and I'll have to spend the entire weekend defending my charachter becasue of YOU. You know what frightens me even more?? The fact that guns owners sound JUST LIKE jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Loius Farrakhan, Bill Clinton, Chuckie Schumer, Dianne Feinstein etc in their rhetoric. Especially when they direct this type of vitriol and FALSE ACCUSATION at other guns owners. THAT frightens me. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:15:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: The fact that [some, many, far too many] gun owners sound JUST LIKE Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Loius Farrakhan, Bill Clinton, Chuckie Schumer, Dianne Feinstein etc in their rhetoric. Especially when they direct this type of vitriol and FALSE ACCUSATION at other guns owners. The modifiers in [ ] are mine and mine alone and should not be attritbuted to garandman. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:19:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: The fact that [some, many, far too many] gun owners sound JUST LIKE Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Loius Farrakhan, Bill Clinton, Chuckie Schumer, Dianne Feinstein etc in their rhetoric. Especially when they direct this type of vitriol and FALSE ACCUSATION at other guns owners. The modifiers in [ ] are mine and mine alone and should not be attritbuted to garandman. Actually, the modifiers are a welcome improvement to my original statement. And I'm NOT exaggerating. This scares me MORE than the Schumers / Clintons of the world. I KNOW that they are my political enemies. I know where I stand with them. I'm not sure WHAT to make of gun owners who SOUND like Clinton. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:19:52 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: You know what frightens me even more?? The fact that guns owners sound JUST LIKE jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Loius Farrakhan, Bill Clinton, Chuckie Schumer, Dianne Feinstein etc in their rhetoric. Especially when they direct this type of vitriol and FALSE ACCUSATION at other guns owners. THAT frightens me. So maybe this really [b]is[/b] a horrible thread that should have been deleted three pages ago? [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:24:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: If you aren't an antisemite, why are you so scared by this word? Do you REALLY have to ask this question??Really??? I'll answer with a question.... Why are YOU afraid of me calling you IN A PUBLIC forum a murder, rapist, racist, wife beater, bigot, homophobe even when we all know those allegations PROBABLY are not true???? Its called FALSE ACCUSATION, and MY charachter is at stake. In May, I'm gonna meet MANY of the people in this forum, and your use of slanderous terms like "anti semite" MAY skew peoples perceptions of me, and I'll have to spend the entire weekend defending my charachter becasue of YOU. You know what frightens me even more?? The fact that guns owners sound JUST LIKE jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Loius Farrakhan, Bill Clinton, Chuckie Schumer, Dianne Feinstein etc in their rhetoric. Especially when they direct this type of vitriol and FALSE ACCUSATION at other guns owners. THAT frightens me. Clean your statements from prejudices and nobody will have any reason to call you anything. I criticized Israel sometimes, so why nobody called me antisemite? |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:25:51 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: So maybe this really [b]is[/b] a horrible thread that should have been deleted three pages ago? [rolleyes] What's your point??? Are we NOT supposed to discuss these matters?? Are we to be afraid of where the truth might lead us? Wouldn't it be better just to OMIT terms like "anti semitic" from our rhetoric, and discuss salient points without name calling?? |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:30:13 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: And I'm NOT exaggerating. This scares me MORE than the Schumers / Clintons of the world. I KNOW that they are my political enemies. I know where I stand with them. I'm not sure WHAT to make of gun owners who SOUND like Clinton. Slowly, ever so slowly, I'm beginning to understand we are a group loosely in agreement about the individual right to gun ownership. And that is about all. Maybe that alone is enough. Probably I should not have expected more. [smoke] |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:30:38 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Clean your statements from prejudices and nobody will have any reason to call you anything. If i just agree with you on everything, you won't have a reason to call em anything. I criticized Israel sometimes, so why nobody called me antisemite? Mostly, because YOU are the primary user of the term, and I CHOOSE not to smear other peoples charachter. I prefer to discuss and argue logic rather than put labels on my fellow gun owners. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:37:53 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Agree ? Yes, I do agree. Good. At least we see this point the same way... However in your post above a reply is likely to be based on emotion. (...why are you so scared of this word ?) I do not believe a fear of the word "antisemetism" is indicative of an "antisemetic." No, I believe the contrary is probably more true. I know of few subtle bigots and racist. My emotions or emotions of somebody else? I put a question, I think, in a very plain and smooth way... and another thing: those words exist. People shouldn't use them easily, but they define exactely a sindrome, a behaviour or a way of thinking. I will use them when I will recognize the conditions. The facts that those words are labeled as "marxists" is stupid and false. They were used by marxist propaganda against Nazism and fascism, and against USA as an exponent of the capitalistic "demon". But those words existed and belonged to many people that were thinking different from marxist propaganda. Btw, a true marxist can find philosophical arguments to be antisemitic in Karl Marx works, like "The Jewish Question". So be careful... A question: what are Jackson, Fienstein, Clinton and company, aside the fact that are people that want to f*ck our RKBA? I am not informed... |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:39:23 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Wouldn't it be better just to OMIT terms like "anti semitic" from our rhetoric, and discuss salient points without name calling?? garandman, my answer here is no. I prefer leaving the at times disgusting (to me) rhetoric intact. "Name calling" self-labels the user thus providing immediate identification. [smoke] |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:43:34 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Wouldn't it be better just to OMIT terms like "anti semitic" from our rhetoric, and discuss salient points without name calling?? garandman, my answer here is no. I prefer leaving the at times disgusting (to me) rhetoric intact. "Name calling" self-labels the user thus providing immediate identification. [smoke] Your statement is wise beyond my years. I just wish we could have logical discussion here, and there is slim little chance of that happeneing when some choose to use inflammatory words like those. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:48:13 AM EDT
[#47]
garandman, for the third or fourth time since this thread has started, would you please explain to us the difference you see between what the Israelis did to the terrorist that was neatly 'assassinated' by them, and what the United States is trying to do with Osama Bin Laden?
And please don't refer to 'UN validated' crimes, because we all know you would never use the UN's validation of a parking ticket as any probative evidence in the discussion of any other subject! Just tell us the moral difference you see between Israeli assassination and American assassination! Eric The(And[u]Then[/u]DeleteThisThread!)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:51:16 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: My emotions or emotions of somebody else? (SOMEONE 'ELSE' IS LIKELY TO REPLY WITH MORE EMOTION THAN LOGIC.) and another thing: those words exist. People shouldn't use them easily..... (AGAIN WE AGREE. THESE WORDS DO EXIST BUT SHOULD NOT BE EASILY (or loosely) USED.) |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:52:31 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Quoted: Clean your statements from prejudices and nobody will have any reason to call you anything. If i just agree with you on everything, you won't have a reason to call em anything. I criticized Israel sometimes, so why nobody called me antisemite? Mostly, because YOU are the primary user of the term, and I CHOOSE not to smear other peoples charachter. I prefer to discuss and argue logic rather than put labels on my fellow gun owners. OK Garandman... next time you make assertions, and I demonstrate you that: a) your assertion are distorted b) your assertion are false c) your assertion are fruit of disinformation don't use the word "slander", because to put under your nose evidences is not slandering anyone (like that time you told that Israel is a military dictatorships because YOU said that ALL the Prime Minister of Israel where military graduates and I demonstrate you that it was NOT TRUE...). Let's talk with facts. And I really would like to know what is the relation where you affirm: PaoloAR15 wrote: I criticized Israel sometimes, so why nobody called me antisemite? Garandman wrote: Mostly, because YOU are the primary user of the term, and I CHOOSE not to smear other peoples charachter. I prefer to think that nobody was calling me antisemite because my critics to Israel were founded on real issues and not on prejudices... See you Garandman... |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 8:54:15 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Slowly, ever so slowly, I'm beginning to understand we are a group loosely in agreement about the individual right to gun ownership. And that is about all. Maybe that alone is enough. Probably I should not have expected more. [smoke] Bingo. I've long suspected that in "real life" many of us wouldn't particularly like each other or get along. Conventions and shoots aren't real life, an overall air of bon homie prevails, everybody is focused on having a good time w/ guns (the one thing that we all do have in common) and everybody is on his best behavior. The gun issue is the one thing we are all loosely in agreement on, and it [b]is[/b] enough; or should be for political purposes and for keeping this board alive. We don't need to like each other or need to agree on anything except that one topic if we want to be realistic and preserve our right to bear arms. Garandman and I are in agreement on the main topic of this thread. As he will vouch, he and I have been on opposite sides far more often. Too many at this board seem to believe that "if you are pro-gun then you [b]must[/b] be _______ and ________ and _______, too." I'm not talking about Garandman or anybody else in particular, but the basic assumption of too many seems to be that it is mutually exclusive to be pro-gun and pro-choice, or pro-gun and critical of Israel, or pro-gun and non-Christian, or pro-gun and Democratic. You can probably add a bunch more of your own. |
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