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Posted: 1/14/2002 3:45:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2002 3:52:57 PM EDT by M4]
Just curious as to what you people think of this governmental effort? It's been going on for years, and my personal opinion is that much of the emphesis is on victimless crimes. Much amounts to nothing more than lifestyle policing. You could put up a decent debate for drugs like Heroin for various reasons(one being terrorists have funded their efforts for generations by exporting their opiates to us.) And cocaine poses some debatable issues, as do some others. Bottom line for me? Marijuana should clearly be legalized, no debate even possible in my opinion. As for the other drugs and the billions of $$$ of our tax money devoted to stopping their spreading via either seller or buyer? It's been a huge failure. A HUGE failure. Our government has legislated what substances we can and can not use. Those we can use, we do......in large quantities.....and the government profits from the enormous taxes generated. Those deemed illegal by our government are the source for the biggest money pit in the last 200 years through the "Drug War". Hypocracy and wasting hard earned tax money are two things that make me cringe. [soapbox]
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 3:59:24 PM EDT
Treat all drug usage as a 'medical' issue and not a criminal matter. Treat drug dealers as you would an illegal or unlicensed pharmacist. Fine the hell outta them and, if repeat offenders, imprison them! Eric The(YouCanGetHardDrugsInPrison,SoHowCanYouKee­pThemFromA'Free'Society?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:06:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Treat all drug usage as a 'medical' issue and not a criminal matter. Treat drug dealers as you would an illegal or unlicensed pharmacist. Fine the hell outta them and, if repeat offenders, imprison them! Eric The(YouCanGetHardDrugsInPrison,SoHowCanYouKee­pThemFromA'Free'Society?)Hun[>]:)]
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I agree with this to an extent. I believe all drugs should be legalized, but if you commit a crime under the influence of drugs then the penalties should be significantly higher. If somebody just wants to sit around their own house and waste their brain away, just like they do now, then that is their business. If that is what makes them happy then so be it. Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness, right? Drugs should be regulated just like alcohol including the way it is taxed.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:14:55 PM EDT
Once again I will say .....I know of no country, not Nazi Germany, not the Soviet Union and not the United States that has ever stopped a blackmarket. If the above is true and I beleve it is then maybe it is time to try something different ??
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:18:38 PM EDT
I seriously doubt "legalised" drugs would reduce the criminal element currently associated with drug use. No corporation would sell such a product, the plaintiffs lawyers will fall over themselves trying to sue. hell you cant even sell cigarettes without being sued. The same criminal element will have to manufacture/sell the product. forget taxes on sales, there is no tax on the black market.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:21:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: You could put up a decent debate for drugs like Heroin for various reasons....
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This is strictly from memory but I believe the British give heroin to their addicts. After everything they could think of had been tried the Brits reached the conclusion that by about age thirty-six the addicts had either weaned themselves off the drug or were dead.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:34:35 PM EDT
I say legalize everything and watch the crime dry up. I personally could care less whether a bunch of crackheads choose to remove themselves from gene pool.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:40:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:46:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DVDTracker: However, the addiction level of the "harder" drugs can eat up serious amounts of money, which often leads to theft/robbery for these people to pay for their habit.
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Yeah, but should drugs be legalized the price would drop dramatically. Farmers losing money planting corn would switch to coca plants. Drugs being mass marketed would be cheaper than ever. X would be sold in bottles like asprin. Cocaine could be right next to BC powder. Just the price drop alone would decrease the crime rates.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:54:31 PM EDT
My main problem with the "war on drugs" is that it quickly turned into the "war on constitutional rights". For this reason, I say legalize it all, and let Darwin sort it out.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 4:55:42 PM EDT
http://www.newscientist.com/ At the bottom of the page, Marijuana. Very persuasive arguments against prohibition. Economics 101: If there is a buck to be made somebody will try to earn that buck. In the case of prohibition it's called Black Market. There is a movie, circa 1932, starring the actor that later becomes famous as the "Thin Man" that has everyone in a Police Station in Los Angeles smokin' weed (can't remember the title). No law against it. By 1934 Prohibition of alcohol is ended and the commie traitors that passed NFA also quietly pass laws against non alcohol drugs including marijuana. US Federal authorities needed an amendment to prohibit alcohol (and many argued that amendment was against the Constitution). But somehow, magically, US authorities needed no amendment to prohibit drug usage. Today crime is rampant beyond what anyone could have imagined in the 30's. Answer: Get the Government out of the prohibition business and get legitimate businessmen in the business of supplying what USA wants to buy. Free up one half million or so cells and put Socialists and other traitors to the Constitution in those cells. Our parents were right about the dangers of communism and socialism. But they were wrong about Marijuana and the Black Market.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 5:01:14 PM EDT
I agree that all drugs should be legalised; nothing else seems to work, however, the two groups who will fight tooth and nail against legalisation are: 1. those who believe that the Bible has ALL the answers; and, 2. the drug dealers. Strange bed-fellows indeed!
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 5:09:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gus: My main problem with the "war on drugs" is that it quickly turned into the "war on constitutional rights". For this reason, I say legalize it all, and let Darwin sort it out.
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Let's also not forget about the "war on poverty" that has financially been "bleeding out " the middle class since the 60's. Only time will tell if the war on "terrorism" will errode our rights to the point of non-existance. But from the look of things, it might not take much time at all.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 5:14:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gus: legalize it all, and let Darwin sort it out.
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Nuff said
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 5:15:48 PM EDT
I'm kind of suprised at the responses so far, I actually expected the oppisite. There is no doubt that marijuana should be legal. It is by no means more a society ill than booze. As a matter of fact it could be argued that alcohol creates alot more problems. And I say this as a beer drinker, and not a pot smoker. But I've known lots of pot smokers in my life, and it never seemed to be a major problem in their life. As for harder drugs, I'm kind of with Mr. Hun on this one. Treat the addicts as a medical issue. And punish harshly the big time dealers and smugglers. Targeting small time dealers just doesn't solve the problem. I also agree that the war on drugs has just been another excuse to whittle away the constitution. When will it end.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 5:45:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Treat all drug usage as a 'medical' issue and not a criminal matter. Treat drug dealers as you would an illegal or unlicensed pharmacist. Fine the hell outta them and, if repeat offenders, imprison them! Eric The(YouCanGetHardDrugsInPrison,SoHowCanYouKee­pThemFromA'Free'Society?)Hun[>]:)]
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Substance use should be ignored. Period. Except when substance use becomes abuse and then it should be handled by family, church, and community in the very same manner alcohol abuse is handled now. Sales of substances should be controlled, taxed, and sold in the same manner as alcohol is. I don't use drugs and I don't encourage it's use. But the damage to society from controlled, non alcohol, substances is found in it's sales by gangs of youths and organized adult career criminals, not by casual, social use. If you don't accept that you probably have never abused alcohol, even one time. Whisky, Tequila, Vodka? These are very powerful, addicting drugs, easily overdosed. Compared to these, marijuana is tame. Well nobody is reading this so I will stop. Cheers! and Health!
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 6:08:42 PM EDT
We should tax drugs 100% and use it to pay for our fiscal shortages. But also prosecute heartily those guilty of crimes whil under the influence.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 6:28:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Treat all drug usage as a 'medical' issue and not a criminal matter. Treat drug dealers as you would an illegal or unlicensed pharmacist. Fine the hell outta them and, if repeat offenders, imprison them! Eric The(YouCanGetHardDrugsInPrison,SoHowCanYouKee­pThemFromA'Free'Society?)Hun[>]:)]
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i agree, only harsher treatment: users need forced treatment, life in prison on third conviction. dealers should be fined, imprisoned and then imprisoned for life on third conviction. the major importers and distributors should be shot on first conviction. no special treatment for the privileged. i have lost too many friends and family from drugs. they all started with pot and worked their way up to an overdose or suicide death. saw plenty of innocents killed or injured by drivers under the influence of drugs. drugs are destroying our families, killing our children and destroying our country. there is no such thing as a victimless drug crime. just my $.02 from seeing it up close and personal.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 6:32:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FL_BOY: i have lost too many friends and family from drugs. they all started with pot and worked their way up to an overdose or suicide death. saw plenty of innocents killed or injured by drivers under the influence of drugs.
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Not to seem insensitive, but that is proof about Darwinism
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 6:50:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DVDTracker: The libertarian side says that no drugs should be illegal. People should be able to do whatever they want as they're not infringing on the rights of others. I agree that drug addiction should be treated medically, not criminally. However, the addiction level of the "harder" drugs can eat up serious amounts of money, which often leads to theft/robbery for these people to pay for their habit. I don't have a problem with pot being 100% legal. If they start making crack legal, they damned will better revoke the laws that make concealed carry illegal.
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remember that if Drugs are legalized, theft is not. yes legalize Concealed carry. this would be difficult in "socialist" areas like New York City. anyone commiting a crime to get drugs are violating laws that are not drugs themselves. i dont beleive that if someone steals money to buy drugs; should be punished more then someone who steals money for anything else. lib
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 7:12:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2002 7:13:15 PM EDT by KBaker]
The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over, while expecting a different result. That pretty much describes the "War on (some) Drugs." Legalize 'em. Tax 'em. But keep the price down to a point that makes a black market unprofitabe. Sell them through pharmacies. You want Ampicillin? Buy it. You want Qualuudes? Fine. You want heroin? Aisle 4. Treat the addicted, imprison the pushers. It may not be any better that what we've got now, but it probably couldn't be much worse. Are we adults, or are we children? And who asked Uncle Sam to be Daddy? Oscar Wilde wrote something once about war that is probably appropriate to drug use: As long as it's considered wicked, it will remain popular. Only when it is considered vulgar will its practice be reduced. (edited to add:) Damn! We're a bunch of radicals! I'm proud to be here!
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 7:31:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stcyr: I agree that all drugs should be legalised; nothing else seems to work, however, the two groups who will fight tooth and nail against legalisation are: 1. those who believe that the Bible has ALL the answers; and, 2. the drug dealers. Strange bed-fellows indeed!
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Jes like the Baptist preachers and bootleggers who do they dangest to keep the dry areas of the SE dry... OCTJMO... ICBW... db
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 7:37:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2002 7:41:31 PM EDT by Wizard_of_Oz]
Wow. I am truly shocked to be seeing some of these responses. I have been haunting AR15.com for almost 2 years, and have just begun posting. When I saw this thread, and the responses to it, I felt compelled to write. THIS POST IS NOT INTENDED TO FLAME ANYONE. Many, if not most AR15.com go-ers are savy, and able to think clearly. Please think about the effects that COMPLETE legalization would have on society and the economy. Marijuana is the least offense of all illegal drugs. It has few side effects, and few risks. It is similar to tobacco and alcohol in long term usage. It has the potential to be legal. However, it is a stepping stone drug. It loosens the inhibitions of the rookie drug user, who then feels less anxious about stepping to the next proverbial level. The next level is one of extreme ugliness. It is an ugly face which only 10%-15% of society sees its current impact. The next level is powder Cocaine, Crack, Methamphetamine, Heroin, X-stasy, LSD, and all variations of stimulants, depressants and hallucinogens. The first three being the most common. These drugs create destruction. Example: Go to where Crack is semi-openly sold and used. Look around. The Crack user will be hooked after using 2-3 times. After that, he/she is a crackhead. A Crackhead will do ANYTHING for more crack. Burglary, Robbery, Prostitution, Theft, Assault, Aggravated Assault, Murder, etc. The victims of these crimes is anyone. Of course, there are those directly victimized, but then there is a much greater toll on society. How many addicts do you create with powder Cocaine, Crack, and Meth? Do they have any money for treatment? How often does treatment work for addicts? (I have to answer this one: 2-3% of addicts don't return to drug use) If you are hooked on "legal" drugs, and out of money, how do you get your drugs? How many crimes will be commited by the new generation of addicts created by legalization? How many new prisons will be built to house these addicts who WILL commit crimes to get more drugs? If you were a crackhead and could buy a un-taxed $5 rock illegally, or a taxed (same size) rock for $10? Would the legalization eliminate the underground drug market? Or would the drug market just lower the price? ......and for those that feel they would not be effected, and who think that the drug users would remove themselves from the gene pool....Go back to the crack neighborhood, count the 3-8 year-olds running around unsupervised. The beauty of reproductive organs for sale. Multiply crackheads times (x) amount of kids. Drastically increase the number of crackheads through legalization. Do the math. Imagine the skyrocketing cost of insurance? ....and lastly if you think that drugs still won't directly effect you.....Did you ever try tobacco as a kid? (legal drug)... Do you think any penalty would stop a kid from trying a legal drug? How many millions of teens try tobacco (legal drug) a year? Now change the word tobacco to Crack. Imagine the impact....Do you have any kids? --------------
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 7:46:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 8:10:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FL_BOY: i have lost too many friends and family from drugs. they all started with pot and worked their way up to an overdose or suicide death. saw plenty of innocents killed or injured by drivers under the influence of drugs. drugs are destroying our families, killing our children and destroying our country. there is no such thing as a victimless drug crime. just my $.02 from seeing it up close and personal.
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OTOH... I've personally known (up close and personal as you say) literally dozens and dozens of folks who did drugs at some point in their life... everything from mj... on up to 'you-name-it'... Of *all* those folks... I know of only ONE who got really messed up... and guess what... he got over it thru rehab and then cashed in on his turn around by becoming a 'anti-crusader' and parleying it into several years of *major* sponsorships on the sporty car circuits... Everybody else AFAIK have had pretty normal, successful lives... oh yeah, of course a lot have quit (or moderated) over the years... so much for 'addiction' being *automatic*... Now... as fer booze and cigs... I'm personally familiar with many cases of major grief or health problems (to include pre-mature death)... IMO one of the biggest contributors to underage folks getting involved with drugs (which I hasten to agree is not a good idea) is due to the dis/mis-information espoused by the gummint and do-gooders... which even a child of ten is likely to see right thru... and when they realize they can't believe all the obvious lies, they tend to ignore the *really* pertinent facts... OCTJMO... ICBW... db PS: Good thing the know-it-all PTBs have got us set up fer two major conflicts... cuz boys and girls... that's where we be... I call it SA 'squared'... South Asia and South America... neither of which bodes well for freedom lovers... of course, we didn't have a choice in one, but sure as hey do in the other...
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 3:00:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over, while expecting a different result. snip (edited to add:) Damn! We're a bunch of radicals! I'm proud to be here!
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Hello KBaker: This is off topic and not meant to offend or flame, if you prefer the vernacular. I have seen and heard this definition of insanity many times and I don't get it. What text is that found? Stupid is clinically defined as generalization of stimuli: Pavlov's salivating dog and the bell (showing I retained something I read once). Or stupid can be defined as what stupid does (showing I saw a movie once). But repeating the same behavior while expecting a new result seems closer to scientific method than insanity! LaughingOutLoud The rest of your post I agree with!
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:02:45 AM EDT
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