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Posted: 1/12/2002 7:39:50 PM EDT
who wants to learn how to shoot for defensive purposes...apparently she is in fear for her & her childrens' lives. Would you recommend semi-auto or revolver pistol? Also taking a shotgun for her to try. I believe it will be a home bound firearm...not something she would carry (at least not until she gets a CCW). Glock17, S&W 4 & 6 inch .357/.38 revolvers, .25 Jetfire, SIG239, .380, will be available for her to try as friends have loaned me their firearms for her to try. She has two children, one 6? & one 10? I think. She is VERY concerned about gun safety & access at home but also wants to be able to defend herself & her kids if she must. Any suggestions? Especially regarding access to the arms by the kids? How do you all handle this with your children?
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 7:44:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 7:46:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2002 7:48:10 PM EDT by AFARR]
The answer depends on a few things: 1. Is she willing to practice and become proficient in the handling of the gun? 2. Is she capable of manipulating a gun and/or security safe in times of stress? 3. Is she going to need a portable gun, or just for home defense? I would strongly suggest a long gun--i.e. a 12ga or smaller shotgun if it is strictly for home defense. A revolver is easier to "point and shoot" for a newbie vs an automatic, but with an automatic, you can remove the mag (and in some, even have a round in the chamber) and be relatively safe. And automatics can be put on "safe" whereas revolvers cannot. Regardless, she needs a "Gun Vault" type safe that has a press combination that gives her access to the gun. Gun safety and teaching the kids to shoot might be the best things she can do to keep them safe rather than trying to hide and lock up the gun. AFARR Edited because I am stupid--the FIRST question to ask her is if she is WILLING TO SHOOT AND KILL AN ATTACKER. If she has some notion of shooting him in the leg to wound or just waving the gun around to drive him off, forget it--she should NOT have a gun, she is better off with mace, a stun gun, etc--at least that way, when the attacker takes it away from her he won't kill her with it.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 7:47:16 PM EDT
I have seen ads for these safes that mount in the wall and have a push button combo that causes a door to pop open exposing the gun, fits flush in the wall. If I think of it I will list the company. Bryan
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 7:48:38 PM EDT
SGB is right on the money. Start them out on something like the 22 LR and gradually work your way up as their confidence and comfort with firearms grows. That's how we've taught our children.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 7:49:41 PM EDT
I concur with SGB. First thing is (if you have not done so already) teaching of Safety before even touching a firearm. Then start off with the .22lr.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 7:55:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 8:02:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2002 8:03:32 PM EDT by redray]
4. IS SHE A BABE? -talking about the newbie of course.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 8:21:40 PM EDT
I think a revolver would be the way to go. Dont know if I agree with AFARR on the pointability aspect, I think that is highly subjective, but with a revolver, if it dont go bang, pull again. Autos are very much, in my opinion, an advanced shooters defensive arm. You have to use one ALOT to be proficient in failure to fires under stress. Revolver eliminates that. Also, Smith and Wesson makes some really nice revolvers designed for women shooters. Lightweight and small framed. If, like you implied, she does eventually get a CCW, it would make a good carry gun.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 8:37:08 PM EDT
I'd also suggest you give her a print out of the 4 basic firearm safety rules for her to memorize. 1) A firearm is alwasy loaded. 2) Never point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy. 3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you have the target in your sights. 4) Know your target and what is behind it. Just take your time with her and be sure to let her build on successes. CMOS
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 9:48:55 PM EDT
CMOS - Don't forget rule #5 - A Firearm Is ALWAYS Loaded. Yes, it needs to be listed twice for most people... I have found that many women will settle upon an auto, given a chance - usually a downsized GM or something in the .380 range. I have done setup work for women with CM and OM pistols and they have been very happy with them. An auto may seem at first advanced, but Ritualistic Repetition of Disciplined Drills (R2D2) will create muscle memories that will take over in the event of a failure. Key training question - have her ask (and answer!) them to herself while looking herself in the eyes in a mirror... 1) "Can I shoot AND KILL someone if necessary?" 2) "Can I coherently form the intent to kill another person?" 3) "Can I trust myself to maintain a level of practise to make a firearm useful?" 4) "Am I willing to practise until the necessary motions and procedures are purely automatic, and require NO THOUGHT on my part?" When you think about it, these are ALL important points to consider. Proceed ONLY if ALL FOUR answers are an unqualified YES. Why do women settle on autos given a chance? Easier to reload, clearance drills are simple, and felt recoil is lower - when the pistol is properly set up. Also take a few minutes to evaluate the percieved risk - for yourself. When you train an individual to use deadly force, you in part accept responsibility (morally) for any potential death that may result. Are YOU comfortable with that decision? Can YOU kill if you need to? Think about it... FFZ
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:36:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garheadjr: I think a revolver would be the way to go...Autos are very much, in my opinion, an advanced shooters defensive arm. You have to use one ALOT to be proficient in failure to fires under stress. Revolver eliminates that.
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Ditto. the only problem is that newbies find the DA trigger on revolvers pretty tough. if a shotgun is in order, then howabout a 20ga instead of a 12ga? less weight, less recoil, less blast; I'd rather use a 20ga indoors myself..
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:47:59 AM EDT
Matrix, I start Ladies and younger teens out with a 12 ga. HR topper that I had cut to 18.5" I have a 410er insert for the first couple of go-rounds and then move up to low brass. This lets them see the effects of shooting somthing vice little 22 holes. The next step is a S&W kit gun in 22lr. I have the same gun in 38 for step 3. Step 4 is a 20ga. pump with a short barrel and a good recoil pad. One gun that is a big hit with my wife is a Marlin lever action carbine in 357. My top choice for an in home self defense "Babe" gun would be an 870 express in 20ga. with an 18.5 to 20" barrel. Good Luck and thanx for spending the time to keep America protecting it's own. [:D] [:)>]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:00:11 AM EDT
OK, Before you automatically assume anything other than a .22LR is going to freak her out, let her try a couple different weapons and evaluate the results. When I tried this with my wife, her favorite of everything was my .357 magnum revolver. She considered my .22LR too "wimpy". I'll agree that most women will probably be more comfortable with the .22, but don't jump to conclusions. Frankly, I think a .22 makes a lousy home defense round anyway. Just my $0.02.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:07:38 AM EDT
Depending on the individual, I'll either start with a .22 or a 9mm Beretta. I base the decision on the person's previous expereance, willingness to learn / practice and, to and extent, their build. As far as the security end goes, I sell both the Mossberg Instant Access safe and as Sorry mentioned, the Gunlocker line of in wall safes. Info can be had at: http://www.gunlocker.com/ http://www.mossbergsafes.com/ I hope this helps.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:19:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: OK, Before you automatically assume anything other than a .22LR is going to freak her out, let her try a couple different weapons and evaluate the results. When I tried this with my wife, her favorite of everything was my .357 magnum revolver. She considered my .22LR too "wimpy". I'll agree that most women will probably be more comfortable with the .22, but don't jump to conclusions. Frankly, I think a .22 makes a lousy home defense round anyway. Just my $0.02.
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I agree with an exception; My buddies wife is kinda tiny, He bought a cheapo 10-22 cut the stock to the pistol grip and stuck a 30 round mag in it. We took her to the "Junk Range" tied baloons at different heights and distances, put a bunch of gallon jugs on the ground and after a while she was a very confident point and shoot "Ramboette" I think this confidence building gun with CCI Stingers makes a valid combo. [:)>]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 9:17:54 AM EDT
THANKS for all the suggestions & tips. I'm headed to the range today with her & will let you know what happens. I did think about the liability issue but found that I was more apprehensive about those kids being hurt than her having a gun. Its a sticky issue but apparently the threat to her life & those of the kids is real...ex-hubby, psycho, controlling freak sort of issue. Hate to get in the middle of it, but don't want to read about two dead kids & their dead mom in the paper either. There will be a group of us there (including a State Trooper) teaching her how to shoot. All different kinds of firearms & ammo...maybe she will find the "right one" for her. We all talk the talk but not all of us walk the walk. Maybe this will be my bit for walking the walk & actually doing something besides making donations to the NRA. As for being able to kill someone? ONLY IF my life or my family's life is at stake. I think that probably covers 95% of us here. Wish me luck!
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 10:05:26 AM EDT
I agree with FreeFireZone, the decision to take a life in defense must be made before any gun is even thought about. I asked my sister that when she was thinking about a gun and she couldn't say that she would. I told her to forget the gun and run like hell. Anybody that would break into a home, and most importantly, approach someone with a gun is crazy and if the criminal senses that no action will be taken, they will take it. The mindset has to be there first. A quick-open safe is a definite around kids, buy it first and practice using it in the dark and don't let the kids see how it's opened.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 10:41:51 AM EDT
Before using deadly force, I would personally consider something less lethal like OC/pepper spray. For a training for a new shooter, I would go with a 22LR just to teach basic fundementals and gun handling techniques. Besides the 22LRs are basically just fun to shoot. From there you can progress to to 380ACP etc.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 11:27:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 12:37:09 PM EDT
Gun safety and teaching the kids to shoot might be the best things she can do to keep them safe rather than trying to hide and lock up the gun.
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Right on, AFARR I know that the safety of the children is paramount here - their safety and the lady's safety is why you're trying to help - that's why I will add the following. Have you discussed the maturity level of her children with her? I am a FIRM believer in teaching children gun safety from INFANCY and teaching them to use firearms properly as soon as they are ready. Especially in this situation, where there a "situation" is almost expected, it is very easy to imagine a situation where mom is wounded or dead and the ex is looking for the kids. Face it - the SOP for a "smart" psycho would be to take out the most physically capable first and work their way down. I would cast a strong vote for teaching the kids about the gun/s unless they aren't mature and disciplined enough. There's a lot to consider here - state laws re: providing access to a firearm to a minor, their friens, visitors, ect. I know this - what my parents put off limits to me all of a sudden became very desirable and inteesting - not that I would sneak to get to it - but I wanted to. Things that weren't off limits were no big deal. Want to help make the kids aware of what firearms can do? Take them to an outdoor range and get them reasonably close to you - have them remove their hearing protection - empty a mag. Teach the kids a defensive mindset too. If you break into my home and kill me, you have to deal with my wife. Oh, you killed her too? You have to deal with my 11 yr old son. Instruction: Run away if it is possible and go to a neighbor's house. If you can't run away, don't worry about me or mom until you are safe - we can't get help until the bad guy has been stopped. Again - run away asap - if not - keep shooting them in the chest until they fall over - if they are holding a gun when they fall over, shoot them until you are sure they can't shoot you. Multiple bad guys - shoot the one closest to you first - at least twice. Watch out for other bad guys, reload as soon as you can, go to a neighbor's house. Remember to follow all the safety rules, even in this situation, and get to the neighbor's as soon as you can. Tate
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 2:50:40 PM EDT
Tate, that's some really good input. CMOS
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 2:57:53 PM EDT
I'd tell her to go with a .357 mag / 4" revolver. Load it with standard 38 specials. My wife learned using this setup and she was able to shoot it comfortably and accurately.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 4:46:23 PM EDT
Well, she was a no show. Her Mother was sick so she went to help her out. Perhaps next weekend... Thanks for the input & will advise when we get together.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 4:52:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:40:57 PM EDT
One last suggestion... 50BMG: [img]http://www.dimensional.com/~mwluse/lady.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:45:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2002 5:46:13 PM EDT by SJSAMPLE]
When I was trying to make a "Love Connection" back in '94, I took her to the range to fire my automatic M11. Unbelieveably, her nipples got HARD spitting out 12rnds per second. Oh yeah, I bagged her THAT NIGHT. Some things work better than Liquid Panties Remover. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 8:20:16 PM EDT
I purposely didn't read the replies before responding. For home defense? A shotgun... get her to play with a .22 then progress.... I would say 20 ga in a minimum house gun. 12 is better, but if she turns out to be recoil sensitive.. the 20 works well. For carry? .380 is the floor.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 2:03:37 PM EDT
From Rudison I agree with an exception; My buddies wife is kinda tiny, He bought a cheapo 10-22 cut the stock to the pistol grip and stuck a 30 round mag in it. We took her to the "Junk Range" tied baloons at different heights and distances, put a bunch of gallon jugs on the ground and after a while she was a very confident point and shoot "Ramboette" I think this confidence building gun with CCI Stingers makes a valid combo. I had a similar experiance. My housemate was a typical neo-hippie chick but after seeing the various hoodlums around the neighborhood near the apartment she wanted me to teach her how to shoot so to be safe when I wasn't home. She didn't particularly care for the 12 gauge or .357mag but loved the Ruger 10-22 with the Choate folding stock & Eagle 30rnd mag. She got to the point where she could dump all 30 rnds rapid fire into a paper plate 10-15 yards away (more than adequate for home defense. I told her that a .22 might not have the most impressive stopping power but if she had to shoot not to stop firing until the BG went away or she had to change mags (& continue firing if need be). Plus the folding stock/large mag/flash hider made the 10-22 look way more intimidating. So during the time we lived together the Ruger was "her's" & stayed in her room.
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