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Posted: 1/8/2002 11:55:03 PM EDT
just wondering if any body can tell me which is the best round 40 smith or 10mm auto? i think you can get a 200grn 10. how big a round in smith?
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 1:50:24 AM EDT
Best round for what? If your definition of "best round" is power and terminal effectiveness, I would say 10mm. It is quite perkier than the .40. But define your mission and requirements! If you don't plan on spending a lot of money, a reliable and accurate 9mm may be better, because 9mm is cheap and you can afford to shoot it and train more. After all, 9mm hits beat .40 misses! .40 is more expensive to shoot. .45 is even more expensive. 10mm is VERY expensive. If you reload, it's less of an issue. .40 is also the least accurate of the effective calibers in my experience. Then figure how good are you? The bigger the round, the harder to shoot it quickly and accurately. 9mm is the lightest caliber I would be comfortable with, while I have no problem shooting a 10mm or .45 with hot loads. I believe the 10mm is the most energetic round, but I am not sure about terminal effectiveness. Bottom line is, there is no "better" round. One may be "better" for you than someone else, but there are many factors to consider. As you can tell, I am not one of those "gun X/caliber X is the king" types. If it goes bang it should do the job if you do your part. I had a Smith 1006, stainless large frame 10mm auto. I wish to God I still had it. Hated the safety/decocker, but loved it otherwise. I sold it 'cause I really needed the cash and honestly didn't shoot it much. Same reason I sold my Glock 23, and my HK USP9...I love accuracy in a pistol and my Kimber Custom Classic is all I need! Sorry for the long winded post, and I hope it helps!
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 1:51:51 AM EDT
Heaviest factory load in .40 is 180 grs. if I remember correctly. I would say that the .40 is better, simply because of the availability of ammunition. The 10mm, while being much more powerful than the .40, is getting watered down (like almost all high-power cartridges) and has a very limited ammunition selection. Recoil is also something to contend with in the 10mm. The recoil out a full-size 1911 is downright unpleasant to me, and I shoot much more powerful handguns routinely. To me, the cartridge would make sense in bear country as a hiking pistol in something like a Glock or 1911 because both pistols are lighter and less bulky than a .41 or .44 Magnum revolver, but still offer significant bear-stopping power. As a self-defense cartridge the .40 has shown to be more adequate than the 9mm and has much less recoil than the 10mm, it is also cheaper, has more selection of ammo, and has more guns chambered for it. Go with the .40 S&W.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:49:12 AM EDT
Going with the heavier round isn't always the most beneficial. With .40 S&W the 180's have done quite well (most incidents involve L.E.O. Win. 180gr. 'Black Talons') but the mid range 155-165gr. loads have a pretty significant performance advantage*. Standard, easy-to-find ammo include Winchester 155gr. Silvertip, Federal 155gr. Hydra-Shok, Speer 165gr. Gold-Dot & Rem. 165gr. Golden Sabre. My personal favorite is the 165gr. Golden Sabre. * Avoid Federal 165gr. Hydra-Shok, it is a reduced load.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:52:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevin: Going with the heavier round isn't always the most beneficial.
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A-Greed . [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:53:47 AM EDT
The 10. The 40 will go where the 9mm will go, so it gained acceptence, after overshadowing the 41 AE (which is better). I'll have my 10mm 1911 on my table at the BRC.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:54:47 AM EDT
Keep this in mind: a .40 operates with less pressure than a 10mm which enables it to have a longer life. Repeated practice with a .40 shouldn't wear it out, but components on a 10mm will need to be replaced more frequently. Ditto on 180gr being the heaviest load for the .40 S&W. If you are looking for a bear stopper, you are looking in the wrong place. The best pistol for bear is one without a front sight, if you know what I mean. In conclusion, both rounds have plenty of power. The .40 is less of a special purpose round. The .40 is generally much cheaper. PS - Why the facination with .40 inch bullets? comparing the .40 to a 10mm is like comparing the .45 to a 44 Mag. Do you like apples or oranges better?
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:54:54 AM EDT
I would avoid the 10mm. The recoil from this round is what caused them to download it, thus creating the 40 S&W. I'd recommend using 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP, depending on what you want. P.S. the 357 mag revolver round is also good.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:02:58 AM EDT
10mm is best, but .40 is more practical for a handgun. Saw a Fed with a MP10 at a local range, it's a big round in a sweet gun.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:15:39 AM EDT
10mm is superior to 40 S&W in terms of terminal ballistics. Unfortunately it seems to be dying out as a cartridge. But you can still get it, though it will be more expensive. Best thing to do, is to get a Glock or an old 1911 (I think it was the Colt Delta Elite that was chambered in 10mm) chambered in 10mm. And then get yourself a Dillon Reloading Press and Load your own 10mm. The Recoil from the round can be dealt with by installing a Compensator on the barrel of the pistol. This will help reduce muzzle flip and decrease the recovery time for secondary shots. This way you get the best of both worlds: (1.) A Magnum Strength Cartridge for your Semi-Auto Handgun (2.) Muzzle Flip about equal to or less than for a handgun chambered in 40 S&W (provided you install a compensator). (3.) A Large Cheap Supply of 10mm Ammo that you can tailor make and "tune" for your Semi-Auto Handgun (provided you get yourself a reloading press). It is a more complicated and involved process but it is worth it in the long run.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:31:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: Best thing to do, is to get a Glock or an old 1911 (I think it was the Colt Delta Elite that was chambered in 10mm) chambered in 10mm
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The 10mm is a good round, but way too powerful for the 1911-type frame, when the 10mm was in its heyday, my local range had one for rent, it lasted about 5,000 rounds of factory ammo, slide cracked behind ejection port, slide replaced, and later frame cracked and I don't remember the ammo count. Best bet would go the handloading route for frame/slide longivity. I load my 10mm about the same as the 45ACP.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:37:03 AM EDT
My personal carry gun is the G-29 Glock, the subcompact 10mm. Beats the heck out of .40 Short&Weak. As far as I know, the only semi auto pistols that will hold up to a 10 for a long time are the Glock and the Bren, (the Bren being almost extinct). I have owned the S&W 610, but the moon clips were a pain in the arsch. Colt refused to honor their warranty on the Delta Elite 10 because the slides kept blowing off of them, I heard. I have put over 5,000 rounds through my little Glock without a hiccup. We reload for it, and with Norma brass, we were able to get the loads close to .41 Mag specs. As far as recoil...I have little hands, and have never had any problem holding this tiger down. The men that whine about it being "OOOOO, too heavy a recoil" are wimps, I think. BTW, my bed gun is a Model 29 Smith...I *like* recoil. I have no problem with second shot acquisition, it snaps up, and comes right back down where I want it. 10mm is a wonderful cartridge, not obsolete at all, and my choice to defeat almost anything that runs at me, from Bad Guys in Kevlar, to angry bears. Long live 10mm!
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:40:49 AM EDT
Just go with the Barrett .50.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:44:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: As far as I know, the only semi auto pistols that will hold up to a 10 for a long time are the Glock and the Bren, (the Bren being almost extinct).
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I'm not an expert at the 10mm by no means, but the Bren Ten couldn't handle the power either. I have a Bren Ten, I wouldn't shoot full power loads thru it because of zero availability of spare parts. The only guns that can handle full power factory 10mm ammo is the Glocks which was designed from the ground up for this powerful round, and the out of production LAR Grizzly Win Mag, which is a 1911-type on steriods designed for 45Win Mag & 44Rem Mag, the heavier slided Springfield Arms Omega on a 1911-type frame. I don't know about the recent EAAs though.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:53:05 AM EDT
I concede the point, Warlord, I have never owned a Bren. My knowledge of Bren has been hearsay, as very few folks have them. Thanks for the input. The little bitty Glock has sure held up though, even with some massive loads, and for quite some time, too.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:08:34 AM EDT
I really like my Steyr M-40, and CDNN has them dirt cheap!! Eric
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:11:33 AM EDT
Oh yea, a 180 gr is NOT the way to go in the 40S&W. A lighter bullet (135-155gr) is much better. Dont get me wrong, I love the 10mm, but the 40 will do for self defence, and it'll have more mag capacity. Eric
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:22:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: I concede the point, Warlord, I have never owned a Bren. My knowledge of Bren has been hearsay, as very few folks have them. Thanks for the input. The little bitty Glock has sure held up though, even with some massive loads, and for quite some time, too.
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The Glock 10s would be my choice in service pistol size envelope. I spoke with one of the Glock reps, I believe he said something like 20,000 rounds and going strong. The 10mm is really big powerful medicine, your adversary would find out real quick the difference between concealment and cover. I only keep the 10mm Delta Gold Cup and Bren Ten around for the gee-whiz factor. When I used to shoot my Bren, the extractor flew away, nearly $hit in my pants; fortunately, I found it on the range floor, and I had to lock-tite the extractor pin in.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:20:48 AM EDT
Didn't the FBI settle on the 165 golden saber for their choice on the .40??
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:53:46 AM EDT
Quit denying it and get yourself a .45 ACP loaded with 230 grain SXTs/Black Talons. Everybody's been trying to remake the .45 for years, and nothing comes close. shooter
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 10:01:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 10:22:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 10:23:37 AM EDT by a3kid]
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: With the lighter bullets you get a little more velocity and penetration.
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Can't agree with this statement. More velocity, yes. More rapid expansion, yes. More penetration, absolutely not (especially with JHP's).
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 10:36:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 10:38:36 AM EDT by Kevin]
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: The FBI likes the Federal 165 grain Hydra-Shok. DEA likes the Remington 165 grain Golden Saber and that's my personal choice too.
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The FBI has started switching to the Rem. 165gr. Golden Sabre. There was a rumor I heard that reported the FBI adopted the Federal 165gr. load because it was more controllable for some of the female agents. [i](Ladies don't get mad at me, I'm just saying what [u]may[/u] have been the reason for their earlier choice.)[/i] Triton also has a really strong 155gr. offering but I can't remember if it's the Hi-Shok or Quick-Shok, anyways the energy rating on it is in the 530 ft. .lbs range.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 10:41:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 12:13:53 PM EDT
This is total rumor, but the story I got was the FBI shifted from the Hydra shocks on the .40's because of poor performance through clothes. The Hydra shock .45's work fine, but some fluke or something. More likely, Remington out bid Federal. Ha! Anyone know what the story is?
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 2:57:52 PM EDT
My $0,02! the 40 is a 10mm short then if you ever use it to defend yourself, think of this, you go to court. The prosecuter says so you used this gun to kill the victim... and this magazine article....says a 10mm is used to kill bears in Alaska! vs. your lawyer saying this weapon is used extensively by 'law enforcement agenmcies around the country....That line tried by 12 is better than carried by 6...does not work anymore. If you never have been up for indictment for a charge, your life is hell!
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 3:25:09 PM EDT
FYI My Sierra loading manual shows loads for 190gr 40SW loads. Maybe for hunting applications? If you're going to hunt the 10mm is the way to go.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:57:09 PM EDT
thanks for the imput guys, i have a kel-tec p-40 like the way it shoots(verses my pt-92). so today i bought a thompson (auto-ordanance) 1911-a bull-dog with 5 inch barrel 10mm. not unpleasent to shoot but does rise up (and i mean rise up) for the occasion, kind of cool. guess i had better stock up on the ammo. shot a 40 gallon bladder pump holding tank at about 75 yards sraight line seams like a flat line 200grn bullet at that range. i'm used to the 45 acp so i was quite supprised at the no rainbow arch . time will tell, sorry to here about my gun is going to tear itself apart though! thanks again
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 1:56:52 PM EDT
I've had much experience with the 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, and 45. I have professionally carried all save the 45, and I can tell you the first pick for me would be the 10mm. It has a small niche of people that realize the potential it has. Compare the 10 to the 40 like the 357 Mag to the 38. You can download the 357 if you wish, and retain the power later, but you can't upgrade the 38 to a 357. I chose the 10 because of the accuracy and power for use in the northwoods where people wear a lot of layers of cloeths. But you have to go with what fits you. Recoil of the 10 I feel won't be a factor because if you don't like the recoil you can get a load that you can handle. The difference is in the frames. If you like a longer width-wise grip, like the 45 (10 and 45 have the same frames), then I feel it should be an excellent option. If you prefer the thicker grips of the 9mm, then the 40 might be the route to go. Capacity-wise, my S&W 1006 held 9+1. Todays 10 round capacity limits don't make for the one of the advantages the 40 used to have over the 10, that being an additional 2-3 rounds. Anyhow, if your hands find the grips to the 10mm's comfortable, then y all means, choose the 10mm. The ammo is the same in cost as a 45, and if you want you can get some barrel manufacturers so make you a 40 S&W barrel that will work in your pistol. Why limit yourself to the 40? Just my opinions in 8 years of law enforcement AND Firearm sales experiences.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 6:32:18 PM EDT
10mm rules! I've got a Glock 20 with 15+1 round magazines and nothing comes close to this kind of firepower. I recommend the ProLoad line of ammunition. You can get 10mm self-defense rounds with 627 ft. lbs. of energy. The gun is accurate, reliable, and I really don't notice any more kick than my SigPro .40/357Sig. Glock has tamed the 10mm with its revolutionary design. My dad owns a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and the gun kicks like a mule!
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 7:03:48 PM EDT
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