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Link Posted: 1/11/2002 2:02:00 PM EDT
[#1]
When they make one with a 16" barrel and an A1 stock length, then i'll be interested. this rifle will give the M96 and Mini-14 a "run for the money".
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 2:14:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 6:27:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Never mind the M96 and the Mini, if and when the AR180B is done "right", it will give the AR15 a helluva run for its money.
Since that would compete/conflict with Armalite's high-end AR15s (read: more profitable), it's a question whether or not Armalite will develop the AR180B into a full-fleged competitor for the AR15.
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That EXACT same thought ran through my meager mind.  It's usually not a good idea to compete with yourself.  I think they're going to go for a niche market.  The "simpler is better" folks who also have bit of nostalgia, and don't want to pay a whole bunch.  As such they be tapping into a wider base of customers, since the low base cost will allow more people to own an Armalite product.  The Armalite M-15 line is pretty stand alone and well optioned, so I doubt that they'll suffer any lost sales to the AR-180B as long as they keep it the spartan tool that it is.  It's basically filling what would have been a Colt SP-1 slot, which no one offers out there.  

Basic accesories like scopes, mounts, etc. would make sense.  I don't see match sights, barrels, etc. though.  Once the base cost goes up into the M-15 relm  

Armalite's been pretty savy so far.  The AR-10 was a great move, and brought in the big bore fans.  They have their .50, and several other offerings, none of which compete with each other.  I see the AR-180B as an extension of that.  It's aimed for a market segment that they don't cover with their M-15 line, or those that own M-15's will also spring for a 180B.  I think they'll leave it as the simple gun that it is.

Ross
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 6:32:24 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
I think they'll leave it as the simple gun that it is.

Ross
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I don't.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 11:27:04 PM EDT
[#5]
As the AR-180B has AR-15 internal could you put in a registered sear or lightning link?
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 6:08:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
As the AR-180B has AR-15 internal could you put in a registered sear or lightning link?
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It may or may not fit in there, but it would do you no good.  The operating components that work a DIAS or LL are completely different between the two rifles.  The bolt carriers are what trip those, and alas, the bolt carriers are a completely different design and configuration.

Ross
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 9:37:51 AM EDT
[#7]
the ar180b has now entered my consideration.  still seriuosly looking at the robinson arms 5.56 ak though.  i need to shoot the ar180 to make a better decision.  
but then, another fal sounds wonderful.  
choices are wonderful
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:13:16 AM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:27:25 AM EDT
[#9]
Anyone have a photo of an AR-180B?

I'm horrified to say I don't even know if I've ever seen one.[:X*]
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:30:48 AM EDT
[#10]
Doesn't RRA offer their basic rifle or carbine for around $650?  I put together an AR for less than that.  It's all about how you shop.

I thought the price target for the 180 was $500?  That makes sense to me.  The only $500 ARs are the crappy Hesse ones that look like ARs but function like single shot rifles (mostly).  

If folding stocks were legal, I'd get the 180B in a heartbeat--very compact. Maybe after 2004.

Yeah right--like the police state won't be in full swing by then!
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:34:58 AM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 11:26:38 AM EDT
[#12]
[img]http://www.armalite.com/shared/images/rifles/ar180/wholeRifle.jpg[/img]

trickshot,the price has never been quoted as $500.  Once again, facts that no one else has.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 12:34:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Doesn't RRA offer their basic rifle or carbine for around $650?  I put together an AR for less than that.  It's all about how you shop.

I thought the price target for the 180 was $500?  That makes sense to me.  The only $500 ARs are the crappy Hesse ones that look like ARs but function like single shot rifles (mostly).  

If folding stocks were legal, I'd get the 180B in a heartbeat--very compact. Maybe after 2004.

Yeah right--like the police state won't be in full swing by then!
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I believe the after introduction price is about $640.00-$650.00 - retail.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 12:57:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think they'll leave it as the simple gun that it is.

Ross
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I don't.
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Armalite may well leave well enough alone, and keep the AR180B simple.

The AFTERMARKET folks just might have a goldmine if AR180B sales do well.

Either way, accessories are likely.
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raf, Ross, obviously both of you have business backgrounds else you wouldn't have initiated your discussions from a business perspective.

I went back and checked ArmaLite's price on their current low-end - the M15A2.

The 15A2 retail price is $935.00 and I'm pretty sure ArmaLite's after intro retail price on the AR-180B will be about $640.00 - $650.00.  This gives the ArmaLite people about $300.00 difference at retail and that's a decent amount of room to work with.

You're correct on the accessories - scopes, mounts (at least two) will be offered.

Also different uppers and barrels including stainless steel will be offered.
The different uppers will also work with the preban lowers so here's a quiet market that will benefit - as well as ArmaLite.

From the end-user perspective the shooter owning a preban AR-180 and purchasing an AR-180B with the coming accessories/uppers/barrels, etc. will get a lot of versatility and a good bang for the buck. (Pun intended.)
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 1:34:51 PM EDT
[#15]
I definitely want to buy one, if they really are available at the quoted price. I put my name on the Armalite "interest" list a few months ago (maybe 6-8 months). Has any body on the board actually been contacted by Armalite off that list?
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 3:20:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 5:19:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Well, If Armalite's going to offer uppers in varying configurations, then here's what I suggest:
(1) AR15A2 or VERY close facsimile rear sights, capable of using currently available night sights/target apertures/other apertures.
(2)AR15A2-style front sight post, same reasons as above.
(3) Make the upper user-changeable between right and left hand shooting positions, while retaining the ability to shoot in either mode without changeover.  Absent that change, at least move the charging handle to the shooter's 10 o'clock position, where it will be MUCH better for the 85% of shooters (right handers), and still decently useable by the remaining 15% lefties.  The charging handle should still be useable as a forward assist, if needed.
(4) Suitable and sufficient room to mount a number of Picatinny rails.

While I'm at it, the lower could benefit from some changes, the current existence of which on the 180B is not evident from the photos:
(1) Ambi controls.  This follows from (1) above, and is a good idea in its own right.
At least configure the lower so that it will accept currently available AR ambi controls.
(2) Butt-stock stowage of a mil-style cleaning kit, at a minimum.
(3) Pistol-grip stowage of other items.

Yeah, it's a wish list.  But I think it augments the 180B's good qualities, while sacrificing nothing.  As has been noted, there is enough price differential between the 180B and the AR15 to implement some of these changes while raising prices only fractionally, if at all.

Regardless, I sincerely hope the 180B is a roaring success.

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1.  The aperture is the same as the M15A2, just not adjustable for elevation.  As such, the match sight and night sight, which is just a different aperture, should work.

2.  The front sight is the same, as I understand it.  The front sight on my preban seems to be the same, and I would imagine the front sight on the 180B would be the same, if for no other reason than economies of scale if they use the same one, which would also apply for the rear sight aperture.


3. The remedy to that is to simply find a preban curved charging handle which would more closely accomodate lefties and is also still usable as a forward assist.  I do believe that the preban curved one will fit, but will find out for sure when I get my 180B.

Your second part:
1.  The original had ambi controls, so I am surprised the 180B doesn't.  However, since the 180B uses M15 fire control parts, I would surmise that it would accept an AR15 ambi safety.

2.  Armalite just mentioned something about the 180B having a buttstock storage space bigger than the M16/AR15 buttstock.  I can't remember exactly where I read it, but it was either a post here or at the ArmaLite website.  

Anyway, that addresses some of your wishes.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 5:52:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 6:05:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
LarryG, glad to hear that at least some of my concerns were addressed prior to my voicing them.
With the caveat that I have neither handled nor fired the AR180B, I would say that mounting an original-style charging handle, at a minimum,  would be a necessity in order for me to even consider a purchase.  As pictured above, the charging handle all but requires the right-handed shooter to remove their right hand from the trigger/grip to charge the weapon.  Very bad design, and hopefully to be corrected in production models.

What is the bolt hold-open/release mechanism like?  What are said controls like?  Please don't tell me they are tied in to the charging handle!
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The bolt hold open is internal.  You have to insert an empty mag and cock it.  It will stay open when you drop the mag.  You can also reach up inside the mag well.  That is the way it is on the original and I understand the new one is that way.  I know this may seem wierd, but I guess I never considered it a problem.  If I want to lock the bolt open, I just do the mag trick and remove it.  If I am firing, the last shot holds it open, so that part is no different.

On the other part, are you talking about charging it when inserting a new mag into a rifle with the bolt held open by the hold open mechanism after the last round of the previous mag?  If so, I understand your point, but I have never found it to be that inconvenient on my originals 180.  Either way, you have to move one hand from something, the foreguard on the 15 and the trigger on the 180.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 6:15:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 8:32:57 PM EDT
[#21]
All you charging handle freaks, it's hardly an insurmountable problem.  Just tilt the rifle to the left, reach over the top and yank the handle with your left hand and rock n roll.  What the hell do you do with an AK/M1/M1carbine etc.?  Deal with it and move on.

I am waiting for the 180B and I think most of the problems mentioned in this thread are nitpicking.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 9:43:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Yes, that's what I was getting at.  Not so bad a procedure on your original, as a proper manual of arms would have the trigger finger drop the old mag, the left hand insert a new one, and then the left hand would slap the charging handle, sending the bolt forward.  Correct?  Not ideal, but do-able.
Now imagine the new (as pictured) configuration.
Right index finger drops mag, left hand inserts new mag, and either goes over top of rcvr and fumbles for much smaller new-style charging handle/bolt release, OR, right hand must leave grip and actuate same.  Not good ergonomics at all, and inexcuseable, given the existence of the old, satisfactory charging handle/release.

If Armalite produces the 180B as pictured above, I predict one of the first aftermarket accessories will be a reproduction of the old-style charging handle/bolt release.
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I do believe the original style charging handle would resolve the problem and they are available at places like Numrich.  Most lefties complaints with the straight handle for the very early 180's was reaching over as well, but they were reversed.  Actually, your method would be great for them on an early one or a 180B because they could just take their right hand off the foreguard, swap mags, and release the charging handle while keeping their left hand on the grip and trigger.

Or, you could do what Clairborne said and tilt the rifle.  I guess I never considered it a big deal either as I own several Garands, M1 carbines and bolt rifles.  I'm not excited or anything (just so you know), but I think this will be a great rifle just as it is.  If I find the charging handle to be a problem, I will try one of the handles off my originals and see if I like it better.

I got out my Sterling just now and tried it several ways.  Reaching over was with the left hand was no big deal, but it was actually faster just releasing it with my right hand.  It was just as fast as with a 15.  I can hold the rifle more steady by holding the foreguard with my left hand and doing everything else with my right hand.  In fact, I and quite a few people that I know reach across with our right hands to release the bolt on our AR15's, while holding the foreguard with our left hands.  I am actually a leftie, but I shoot rightie because my left eye was injured as a kid and my right eye is much stronger.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 3:42:44 AM EDT
[#23]
The mag change is not a big deal. Yeah, I like a manual bolt release too.  Still, on the pre-ban all you had to do was fan your left hand over the upper.  The pre-ban "crank" shaped handle stuck up high enough that you could hit it without tilting the gun.  I will have to admit that I didn't like the "crank" missing from the "B".  

An alternate method of changing mags was to use your right hand.  You punched off the mag, used your firing hand to retrieve and replace the mag, then hit the charging handle with it and back to the pistol girp.  Sounds more complicated than it is.  Just remember when it was designed.  Decades of the AR-15/M16 system hadn't been ingrained.  Also remember that the Army doctrine of the time was to change mags on the M14 and reload with the M1 (both of which were still in service at the time, and have charging handles on the right side) with the right hand.  So the design was in keeping with the thoughts of the day.  

As for rear sights, it would be a simple matter for macth type sights based on the M1/M14 or the Daewoo.  While different in desing, both of those sight systems use a thumb knob to adjust elevation, and it already uses a thumb knob for windage.

Ross  

Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:54:03 AM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:57:44 AM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:04:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 4:00:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
As for rear sights, it would be a simple matter for macth type sights based on the M1/M14 or the Daewoo.  While different in desing, both of those sight systems use a thumb knob to adjust elevation, and it already uses a thumb knob for windage.

Ross  

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That, my friend, is exactly the optional, add-on systen that ought to be used.  It has the benefit of the engineering already being done, and drawings made.  Good Idea!
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Well, there's the second aftermarket device.  Right after your original style charging handle[:D]

Ross
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 4:21:31 PM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 7:00:01 PM EDT
[#29]
CHROME LINED BARREL PLEASE!!

Link Posted: 1/13/2002 7:51:13 PM EDT
[#30]
If all goes according to plan, I'll be getting my 180B in 2 weeks and my AR30-338Lapua in 5 weeks.
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