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Posted: 1/1/2002 10:47:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2002 10:53:46 AM EDT by punkatomic]
...don't get shot! I'm serious. If the way you could win a boxing match is by not getting hit, because the guy would eventually tire from swinging and then you could easily walk up to him and hit him with a well placed shot on the jaw, then a gunfight might be an easier affair because he may run out of ammo sooner than he would tire and you could just shoot him. This, of course, is oversimplified. The point is by using cover and distance to your advantage, a gunfight becomes less necessary and you survive. The more you stay in the fight trading shots, the more likely it is to get hit. What about it, guys? Oh, the part about shooting the guy who ran out of ammo is hypothetical. You wouldn't shoot a guy just because you could, you would just leave, or have the authorities arrest him.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:49:41 AM EDT
I only know three rules of a gunfight 1. Have a gun 2. Shoot to kill 3. There are no rules
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:50:36 AM EDT
Initiate the gunfight and take out your enemy before he has a chance to respond. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:54:40 AM EDT
If ever you're in a fair-fight of any type your tactics succck. [smoke] Hit first and win Shoot first and live (If absolutely there is no place to run) [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:56:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: Initiate the gunfight and take out your enemy before he has a chance to respond. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
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DINGDINGDING We have the winning answer!
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:05:11 AM EDT
I was taught the simple rule of gun fights: "Always get off first."
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:05:31 AM EDT
No, the superior tactics are to own the battlefield; to have the high ground, to have cover, the open shot, the advantages of terrain. When it's easier for you to get your hits and harder for the other guy, your chances increase. Just as the trained man can take the more difficult shot, why would you fight fair and not make it more difficult for your opponent? If, because you make it harder for the other guy he starts missing, or runs out of ammo haven't you shown superior force and tactics?
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:08:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By punkatomic: .... why would you fight fair
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Precisely [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:10:57 AM EDT
Assuming you are the good guy, you usually will not get the first shot off, and the bad guy usually will hit you. Police Officers (who, flames aside, are the good guys) are usually REACTING to someone else's assault. They usually take a hit. Cop to Bad Guy accuracy rates in Police gunfights are generally 41% to 91%, respectively. The police accuracy rate is so low because they usually don't get the chance to shoot without first being shot at. The bad guys rate is so high because they initiate the gunfight. The key, for cops at least, is to survive the initial hit and return accurate fire. Cops still win most gunfights, so their training is either working or God likes them.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:12:24 AM EDT
[b]Vastly Superior Firepower[/b]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:26:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: [b]Vastly Superior Firepower[/b]
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Vastly Superior Firepower when coupled with Unfair Tactics should rule most days.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:29:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:32:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2002 11:37:39 AM EDT by punkatomic]
natez, you are a gentleman and a scholar, unlike those proposing that you shoot first and win. Such macho armchair posturing as that indicates a lack of thoughtfulness regarding self-defense. Your response is going to have to be re-active when faced with a threat. If you were initially the one pro-active then you are the attacker. Surviving the first hit (or miss) and delivering an overwhelming response or a superior defensive strategy (as gaining and controlling hard cover) is, like you say the reason the good guys often win. Martial arts instructors don't teach their students to go out and kick ass. They teach them to allow the opponent to defeat himself, either by using the opponents' force and momentum against him or by employing a overpowering response to his attack. Avoiding the fight is what is the best teachers advocate. Number one street survival rule: Don't be an Asshole!
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:35:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar: The only real way to win is to not play.
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Sometimes youse gots to play. [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:36:51 AM EDT
Some of us are military. in our situations most of the time it would be very foolish to be reactive. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:49:35 AM EDT
Being a small female, I have always been taught that if I took the first blow, (or shot), I could easily be too injured to return the fight at ALL. If I *receive* the first attack, I may be unable to defend myself further. My fear is waiting too long before I decide it is a deadly threat, which is probably what would happen, as I am indeed acutely aware of the legalities concerning self defense. I cut way too much slack sometimes, I am sure, yet the few times, I have been utterly freaked by someone's behavior, I have been ready and waiting for them, *just in case*. I trust my gut instincts, and if feeling threatened, I can be ready to instantly react, before any harm can be done to me. If my hackles are raised, I have, a few times, had my hand on my gun, ready to fire through the other side of my carry purse. This is my best hope of "getting off first", and no, it is not arm chair commando stuff, it is my plan if attacked. Attacks may well have been averted a few times, by the criminals' animal instincts that I may not be as easy a mark as they thought. I am sure criminals trust their gut feelings as well. The criminals have a plan, and so should we. Trust those gut feelings. Be ready, *as* they make their move. Be sure it is justified, then..... Always get off first.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:56:04 AM EDT
The more bullets flying around, the greater chance you take of intercepting one, so I agree with the majority here. Shoot first, hit first. "Used cover and distance to your advantage"?, yes, also avoid a gunfight if you can, but when guns are drawn it's too late to run around behind obsticles hoping the other guy only brought one spare mag to the fight...
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 12:35:43 PM EDT
One word survive!!!Anyway possible.Train hard never give and even break.Never!! Hannah's right no matter what your size.Get off first and don't stop tell they are down.I shoot to stop. If they die that's there fault not mine. I had some drug dealers try to scare me by telling me they were going to kill me and my family.It almost worked I had plans of taking them out from long range with my AR.I let the police handle it and some of them are in jail. I know this isn't PC but second place in a gun fight would suck.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 12:37:33 PM EDT
If you ain't cheatin' . . . You ain't tryin'. [;)]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 1:12:19 PM EDT
So, how many y'all [i]BEEN[/i] in a gunfight?!?!?!
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 1:22:31 PM EDT
Best way to win a gunfight is not to be in one or a situation where it could lead to one. Been around for 34yrs and was in this military during the Gulf War. Never have had to point a gun at another human being. Hell I've even been in East L.A. at 2AM on a Saturday morning walking around looking for a 24hr taco stand. So I am living proof that the best way to win a gunfight is not to be in one. If are in one. I suggest you expect your ass to to die, and fight like it. Above all else remain calm.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 1:23:24 PM EDT
train as u fight. fight as u train
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 1:31:52 PM EDT
Some thoughts (in no particular order): 1. Be aware of your surroundings as much as you can. The closest I've ever been to a gunfight is paintball. In paintball, if I see my opponent and he/she does not see me, I have the upper hand b/c of the intelligence at my disposal. I will go out on a limb and say the same applies to real-life gunfight situations. 2. #1 allows you leave the area and avoid the conflict or to shoot first. Your decision, based on the available info and resources. 3. If you move on, your turn is done. If you shoot first, see #4. 4. Make sure the first shot (or barrage) actually accomplishes something. Whether it is intended to eliminate, neutralize, or frighten your opponent, make it count. Your advantage evaporates right now. 5. You can lessen the degree of "advantage loss" by remaining concealed and covered while forcing your opponent to stay in the open until your objective is accomplished (elimination or neutralization). 6. Understand things can go wrong and allow for fast, effective retreat. This is tied to #1.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 1:40:22 PM EDT
Cell phone + 911 on autodial = response by trained professionals and a win every time.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 1:51:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Cell phone + 911 on autodial = response by trained professionals and a win every time.
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"Stay where you are, sir, we'll send a squad car right out."
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 2:14:49 PM EDT
[blue][b][size=5] CHEAT !!!!![/blue][/b][/size=5]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 2:27:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OneRobertFour: So, how many y'all [i]BEEN[/i] in a gunfight?!?!?!
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Pardner, Would the TET Offensive be considered a gunfight?....if so, the answer is an unqualified yes. GIB ;{>
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 2:36:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2002 2:37:09 PM EDT by lionhntr]
Being able to look at your sites when you take the shot would be a GOOD start (training). Gun Fight? Fired a couple mag's worth on the North end of Mogadishu in January of 93'. Remember wishing my helmet was alot bigger, like enough to cover everything except my right eye and my trigger finger. [(:)] Somali's lost because they couldn't aim worth a shit, friggin amateurs. Was happy I didn't piss my pants. **edited because I can't speel worth crap**
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 3:08:16 PM EDT
Thanks for the kind words, punkatomic. My point was about self-defense shootings. While you obviously have a better chance of winning if you get the first shot off, and the first accurate shot generally wins, if you are in a self-defense situation and you do get into a shooting, chances are that you are going to be "playing catch-up" to someone else's aggression and that you will take a round. The general term for folks who shoot first is "murderer." Of course, this obviously doesn't apply to all situations. Folks in the military in an armed conflict generally don't have to follow this. There are also limited circumstances when a police officer or other citizen can shoot first, but generally, self defense is REACTIVE. Actions are always quicker than reactions. Your use of defensive force is in reaction to someone else's threatened or actual use of force. If you can articulate your midset, and that a reasonable person would share it, your actions can pass what I call "the Grand Jury test." Fail that test, and you go to prison. I have not been in a gunfight, but I have been darned close a few times. I felt (sometimes incorrectly, in hindsight) that I would have won each time. I had the advantage of knowing that a threat existed, being prepared for that threat, being trained for the situation, being armed at the time, and remembering to watch my front site. I am thankful that I got through my experiences intact without having to shoot, and know that I am much better prepared for future encounters because of them. I have witnessed a personal "learning curve." The first time I was close, I was so rattled that when the main danger had passed, I couldn't even get my weapon into its holster. The last time was a world of difference. I had cover, a great sight picture, and I was mentally calling my first two shots. Experience with heightened emotional states helps a large amount. The first time I took fire was immediately after a very intesive training period. I was shocked when the first bullet came through the wall at me. By the time the second came through, I was already back to doing my job (about 0.3 seconds, in retrospect). If I would not have had the training, I probably would have frozen. I think Simunitions is one of the best training tools ever devised for close quarters engagements, because most of the dynamics of these things have little to do with traditional marksmanship and a lot to do with appropriate reactions and not giving into to the "startle response." The typical first response to a threat is not fight or flight (that comes later). The real first response is "Oh S--t!" Training that makes the "Oh S--t!" familar and gets you past it and into an actual response is the key to winning.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 3:57:21 PM EDT
In no particular order: 1. Hannah is right: Stay alert. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. Trust your survival (gut) instincts. Make sure you go into every situation as if it could turn sour. 2. Carry the largest possible caliber weapon and the most ammo you can safely and adequately conceal. Use personal defense ammo. 3. Train...train...train. Mentally train for each possible situation and shoot...shoot...shoot. If you carry (legally of course!), practice drawing and firing from your concealed carry often. Go to the range often. Make that sidearm become an extension of your body. Shoot until you feel confident. 4. If you are an LEO, always wear your vest. 5. If a bad guy produces a deadly weapon, drop him. I mean knives, clubs, pipes, spears, swords...you get the idea. Since most close combat takes place within just a few yards radius from the point you identify the threat, you would be amazed how fast a bad guy can cover the few yards between him and you. No warning yells...none of this noble Hollywood shit. Drop him...(or her). Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six. 6. In the horrible and unlikely event you do have to slap leather, shoot for a certain kill (center mass or head) until the weapon goes click. LEOs may not be able to get away with this...but I'll bet even a crusading anti-gun liberal DA in LaLa Land would have a hard time finding twelve jurors that would convict you for shooting until empty. This may sound hard and cold to some folks out there...but I'd rather be hard and cold in a gun fight than hard and cold on a coroner's slab. Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:20:21 PM EDT
Since I started this thread, let me add another dimension to it for all the brilliant minds out there who have volunteered their two cents so far: Again, this is about a self-defensive use of firearms by a civilian either in the home or on the street. Let's say you've recognized a threat to your life and before you know it there's a gun pointed at you and it looks like it's going to be fired at you. As you draw your weapon are you static, or do you begin to move away from threat? Movement must be good since it's harder to hit a moving target. If there are objects around you perhaps moving behind one of them will catch or deflect a bullet. While moving, you are acquiring a sight picture or as good of an ingrained index as possible and are going to shoot. You've got off one shot, and now are behind solid cover, you hear shots hitting all around but nothing apparently can penetrate the wall you've managed to put in front of you. What's next? Are you still going to fight or do you look for the exit?
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:22:43 PM EDT
From some training I got from a former police officer, police firearms instructor and Master-class IDPA champ, I understand that most gunfights happen at conversational distances -5 to 7 feet. At that kind of range, you have to move to create distance and not be where your opponent is aiming when the hammer falls. If you can shoot quickly and accurately while you're on the move, that would go a long way toward winning a gunfight, in addition to many of the points already raised.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:25:48 PM EDT
My best guess is two things must be happening almost simultaneously: 1. Drawing firearm (and returning fire) 2. Seeking cover In that order?
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:30:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By punkatomic: What's next? Are you still going to fight or do you look for the exit?
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If I am alone, and there is no one there I am responsible for, I would say looking for an exit from this scenario would be big on my list.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:31:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2002 4:32:00 PM EDT by njogi]
You always win with HK! [;)]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:34:12 PM EDT
Anybody who waits for the other guy to take the first shot, with his fists or his gun, is a SUCKER. If you've analyzed the threat, and deem that it is life-threatening, why in hell would you wait, dance around, and let the guy take the first shot? If you don't deem the threat worth it, and the other guy gets the first shot in, you just plain analyzed the situation incorrectly. Rely on the other guy to miss is just plain nuts, and arrogant on your part. Always assume that the enemy is equal to or superior, and you won't underestimate your opponent. Again . . If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:43:10 PM EDT
You're right SJSAMPLE, you wouldn't dance or wait around for the guy to take the first shot, but the gun is out, [b]NOW![/b] That's life, man!
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 4:54:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE: Always assume that the enemy is equal to or superior, and you won't underestimate your opponent.
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This is a great statement right here. [b]NEVER underestimate your opponent.[/b] Be it a gunfight or a fistfight, or you could be in for a surprise, even if you are more superior.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 5:00:02 PM EDT
Punkatomic, I don't understand that last post.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 5:02:06 PM EDT
1) Take your time, quickly. 2) Use cover or concealment if available. 3) Use movement if cover/concealment are not avaialable. 4) You don't have time to bleed, do that later. 5) Just because the guy that is shooting at you has been hit doesn't mean he is out of the fight. 6) Maybe he had back-up................ 7) Force yourself to look around.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 6:12:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 6:31:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE: Anybody who waits for the other guy to take the first shot, with his fists or his gun, is a SUCKER. If you've analyzed the threat, and deem that it is life-threatening, why in hell would you wait, dance around, and let the guy take the first shot? If you don't deem the threat worth it, and the other guy gets the first shot in, you just plain analyzed the situation incorrectly. Rely on the other guy to miss is just plain nuts, and arrogant on your part. Always assume that the enemy is equal to or superior, and you won't underestimate your opponent. Again . . If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.
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I wasn't suggesting that you have to get hit or take the first shot. Statistically, you are going to get shot in a deadly force encounter that you did not initiate. You need to keep that in mind when you are training. I am not saying that you should train to take a hit and then begin to fight, I am saying that in all liklihood, you are going to take a round at the beginning of the encounter, because the other guy isn't going to play fair either. He is going to set you up. You are playing catch up, and it should be in the back of your mind that you are going to get hit, and you are still going to win. 98% of GSWs that are not instantly fatal are survivable, but people get killed because the non-fatal wound causes them to give up, and is followed up with fatal rounds that could have been avoided. Last one standing wins. In punkatomic's updated scenario, I am alone, have cover and am taking heavy fire. I retreat. Fast. I can get the cavalry and they'll be there quick, and me and the cav can settle this one on our terms with alot less risk. Even if I couldn't get help I'd retreat. Handguns are defensive weapons. They are best for enabling you to survive encounters that go to deadly force fast, with no real warning.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 7:56:08 PM EDT
I want to help SJSAMPLE understand what I'm saying: I mean we are all capable of being surprised, no matter how well we think we can read a situation, especially a persons' intentions. So, an act by someone insane or criminally motivated starts with a thought that is invisible to others, it is proceeded by an action that precedes any possible reaction by anyone who is observing them. Therefore, it is impossible to analyze every situation and either to not be there, or to produce the solution. If someone's acting in a strange manner, surely most people will choose to leave. A highly aware person might even have a good idea what might happen next, but in life, stuff happens. What I mean is that in less than a second a drawn weapon could be in your vicinity, SJSAMPLE, you NOW have to deal with it. OK?
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