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Posted: 12/27/2001 7:49:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2001 7:50:28 PM EDT by realist]
[img]http://www.smith-wesson.com/images/410.jpg[/img] I Got the Jan 2002 Issue of a Shooters magazine given to me for Christmas. I see there's a big article about their new line and the fact that Smith and Wesson have new American owners.... I haven't been following it. Are the new owners playing by our rules? Or still kissing the Government's Ass ? Realist out
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 7:52:50 PM EDT
Still Government ass-kissers.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 7:57:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 8:00:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Personally, I think the point has more than been made. A legal contract can't just be scrapped because, "we changed our mind." The contract really didn't affect crap. I say let's give the new owners a chance by buying the finest revolvers made (other than FA, which cost 3X). Pile on, I don't give a rat's ass.
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I agree. I would like a model 625.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 8:02:36 PM EDT
The new owners plan to honor the agreement. Guess they don't need any semi-auto rifles. Don't give your money to them or you'll pay for advertising that will make you want to shoot your T.V.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 8:07:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2001 8:11:26 PM EDT by realist]
[img]http://www.smith-wesson.com/images/firearms/small/100927.jpg[/img] SKU:  100927 Type:  Revolver Model:  625 Caliber:  .45 ACP Barrel Length:  5" Full Lug Capacity:  6 Rounds Action:  Single , Double External Safety:  N/A Hammer:  .400" Target Trigger:  .312" Smooth Target 5" Grip:  Hogue Rubber Combat Firing System:  N/A Front Sight:  Patridge Rear Sight:  Adjustable Black Frame:  N-Large Finish:  Glass Bead Over all length:  10-3/8" Weight:  45.0 ounces I like the 625 also. So the new owners kept the same gov. contract [:(] I guess I won't be in the market for one then...
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 8:10:31 PM EDT
A legal contract can't just be scrapped because, "we changed our mind." The contract really didn't affect crap. Well, you got it half right. The contract isn't going away just because it isn't being enforced. The only reason it "didn't affect crap" is because no shop owner would sign the ridiculous contract Smith mailed out. [b]When[/b] it is enforced, shop owners will either capitulate or become the driving force that will usher Smith into bancrupcy court. You do still wish to be able to walk into your favorite gun shop and see AR-15s offered for sale, don't you? Hang Smith and Wesson.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 8:31:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 8:34:15 PM EDT
When people start buying S&W products again, the company will lose the last vestages of any interest it might have still had in getting out of the contract. It also sends an industry-wide message that customers will eventually forgive a gun manufacturer, no matter how treasonous the crime. Hang Smith & Wesson indeed.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 9:00:11 PM EDT
maybe I'll buy a Norinco, or a CZ, or a AK, or some real commie block gun. I want a Mdl. 66 4" barrel.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 9:15:10 PM EDT
I thought everybody was still mad at S&W because they dropped the 25-5... That and...
Under a provision that is likely to be highly controversial within the gun industry, Smith & Wesson agreed to supply its handguns only to authorized dealers, who would be required to accept a "code of conduct" governing their sales to continue receiving Smith & Wesson products. - Washington Post
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and...
dealers will have to keep better and computerized records of every gun sale. Customers will now be limited to just one gun every two weeks. - HCI
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and...
If the manufacturer parties to this Agreement enter into an agreement with any other entity wherein they commit to institute design or distribution reforms that are more expansive than any of the above-enumerated items, such reforms will become a part of this Agreement as well." "In addition, if firearms manufacturers that are not party to this Agreement agree to design or distribution reforms that are more expansive than any of the above-enumerated items, and if the manufacturers who are party to the other agreement(s) with more expansive terms, in combination with the manufacturer parties to this Agreement, account for fifty percent or more of United States handgun sales, manufacturer parties to this Agreement will agree to abide by the same design and distribution measures."
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This thing is designed to become self-expansive...like suppose S&W dealers someday send copies of the 4473's to S&W where the ATF can look at them anytime they want... I say let Safe-T-Hammer spin off assets of S&W to other Safe-T-Hammer subsidiaries (which would then build fine revolvers under it's new name) and then dissolve S&W as a formal company and this deal with HCI..er..Gubmint with it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 9:36:24 PM EDT
Forget about the "ass kissing" contract...I would stay away from most S&W guns that are new anyway. However their OLD guns...like original 19, 66, 27, etc...I like them. If you have a problem with S&W, you can just go ahead and send ME your revolvers. Thank you in advance of the shipment!
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 10:38:18 PM EDT
Well I will say after I talk to them at the Shot Show - of course they might lie also.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 5:16:41 AM EDT
The Limey left he works for Murray now. It is a new company as it was bought by some gun guys. If we let the anti's destroy S&W by our own hand we are losing an American legacy
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 5:44:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 5:45:47 AM EDT
Ya the legacy that private industry can be used by the executive branch to enforce a policy that could not be legislated by the branch of goverment charged to do so.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:17:03 AM EDT
I can't belive I am defending S&W I don't like their products. But they were bought by an English company that set policy and cut the deal, due to a lack of balls. It was the English.....remember that
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:51:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:05:54 AM EDT
Why don't we send a letter or email to the new owners. I would like to see their position on this.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:07:57 AM EDT
I *had* subscriptions to GUNS and American Handgunner for over a decade. These magazines continued to wave S$W's flag, and decried any boycott of S$W. Now, P!ss on S&W and anyone who supports them and their erosion of our constitutional freedoms. That would also include some "members," here, in my estimation!
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:19:46 AM EDT
S&W can ditch the "Contract" if they file for bankruptcy. After that some other company can buy their remaining assets, including their manufacturing assets, hire their people, and emerge as a new company. If I were at the helm of S&W thats exactly what I would do, drive the company into bankruptcy. Then, I'd tell Clinton to kiss my ass.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:49:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER: Well I will say after I talk to them at the Shot Show - of course they might lie also.
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I actually e-mailed S&W & asked them about where they now stood with the "agreement". They sent me back some claptrap about how the "current administration" isn't enforcing the "agreement". So please buy our guns. What they DIDN'T say was what happens if Gore/Schumer/Gephart/etc gets into the White House next term? What then? So until the "agreement" is null & void, the boycott is still "on" as far as I'm concerned.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 8:10:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 8:20:36 AM EDT
Let's see. We have to boycott S & W because they "sold out". Can't buy Ruger's because Bill proposed the ten round magazine rule. May as well boycott Colt because they sold out to the State of Connecticut several years ago. Oh, and don't forget Kahr, can't be giving money to the Moonies. And Kimber, yes must boycott Kimber because S & W makes forgings for them. And Callaway Golf because Ruger does their casting. Hmm, must be somebody I'm missing. Sarah Brady is very proud of all of you. Keep up the good work.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 8:30:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ameshawki: Hmm, must be somebody I'm missing. Sarah Brady is very proud of all of you. Keep up the good work.
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I'm pretty sure there are a few companies still deserving our business. Armalite, Bushmaster, Cavalry Arms, and DSA quickly come to mind. As you seem to be the one aiding Sarah's beliefs with your caving in to back door guncontrol, please feel free to kiss my a$$. Have a nice day now.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 8:45:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:03:09 AM EDT
I'm still on the boycott wagon myself...... Untill S&W comes out publicly and voids the agreement, they won't get another penny.....as it should be.........I don't buy the arguement that we are our own enemies to put them under........Send the message loud and clear........gun owners will have none of this kind of crap.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:04:15 AM EDT
Here is a little new info that might help on some of those decisions. S&W with the new owners are not bound by a contract from the previous owners according to my S&W rep. It would have fallen by the wayside anyways with George W in office. Our President feels it is not the responsabality of HUD to set gun laws. And at this time S&W is turning out some of the best quality products that have ever come out of Springfield,Mass. A little background. I have made my living in the Firearms Industry for over 20 years. My company has just picked back up S&W recently. I'm certin our corporate lawyers looked closely at this ahead of time. John
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:06:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:10:37 AM EDT
I say no. I for one can say I did not like S&W back when it was ok to like them. There guns look like crap and a bad guy could bleed to death befor I could get a shoot of with 6' of slack in the trigger. Be a man,buy a 1911.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:27:52 AM EDT
Make no mistake, Safe-T-Hammer is imposing another form of gun control on us - mandatory trigger locks integral to the gun. This is the first step toward "smart guns" that must be programmed by the "authorities" before use by the ordinary citizens. Safe-T-Hammer has been in the gun-disabling business for a while now. S&W is only the vehicle in which S-T-H will push their agenda to further their own business growth. When the government finally mandates gun safety devices patented by S-T-H, don't worry about buying S&W guns - run out and buy S-T-H stock!
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:00:38 AM EDT
Gizzmo, It is an established fact that the new owners "bought" the contract right along with the rest of the company. Actually, two contracts, as the city of Boston has them over a barrel as well. Any lawyer who has chimed in on the subject on any of the boards I visit say that the way the company was purchased locked the new owners into abiding by the agreement. Their own press releases say that they will honor these contracts. They don't seem to be too unhappy about it either. Smith's official stance on this matter at the moment is as another poster stated; "The agreement is not being enforced at this time, thank you for your interest, please buy our guns." If you think I am making that up, e-mail them yourself and see what they say. That is so fricken lame I can't believe that anyone who understands how upset people are about this would have the nerve to make such a statement. They obviously think we are all endowed with teeny tiny I.Q.s and have the attention spans of gnats. You give them your money if you like. I'll support companies that refused to sign on.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:14:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:30:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2001 10:31:18 AM EDT by warlord]
Originally Posted By Gizzmo: Here is a little new info that might help on some of those decisions. S&W with the new owners are not bound by a contract from the previous owners according to my S&W rep. It would have fallen by the wayside anyways with George W in office. Our President [b]feels[/b] it is not the responsabality of HUD to set gun laws.
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I would like to diagree with Gizzmo. Feelings can't be used in court of law, we have all watch enough of tv law, such as the Practice. Isn't a corporation is like an individual, even though it changes hands, it is still legally the same company? Otherwise, if a company changes ownership the previous contracts are null & void? Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but I have seen other organizations declare bankruptcy and seen them get out of long term expensive leases in shopping malls. Now if S&W had declared bankruptcy.....
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:35:06 AM EDT
I live in Massachusetts. I grew up in Springfield and my father worked across the street from S+W. I have heard good things about the new owners but they haven't made any public statements regarding their "contract with the government". Until then I too must boycott S+W. This boycott should also include the Walther P99. If you check the P99 warranty card the address is: Walther USA 2100 Roosevelt Avenue Springfield, MA That's S+W! I like Smith revolvers but gun owners have to prove their point and that means S+W has to pay the price.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:42:47 AM EDT
[b]"S&W with the new owners are not bound by a contract from the previous owners according to my S&W rep."[/b] Your S&W rep is lying through his teeth. If it were true, don't you think S&W would be shouting it from the rooftops? You think they'd let this "misconception" by a significant percentage of their former customers continue? You'd see full-page banner ads in every gun/sporting magazine. However, by whispering a "rumor" that the agreement is no longer valid, maybe a few of the more gullible ex-customers among our ranks will delude themselves long enough purchase another S&W product.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:53:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ameshawki: Let's see. We have to boycott S & W because they "sold out". Can't buy Ruger's because Bill proposed the ten round magazine rule. May as well boycott Colt because they sold out to the State of Connecticut several years ago. Oh, and don't forget Kahr, can't be giving money to the Moonies. And Kimber, yes must boycott Kimber because S & W makes forgings for them. And Callaway Golf because Ruger does their casting. Hmm, must be somebody I'm missing. Sarah Brady is very proud of all of you. Keep up the good work.
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Total BS. Where there is demand, there WILL be supply. S&W, Colt and Ruger can go belly-up, and there WILL be entrepreneurs and craftsman to step in and take their place in new companies. There are already good competitors for every product made by these three. Good riddance.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:25:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pcgod: Until then I too must boycott S+W. This boycott should also include the Walther P99. If you check the P99 warranty card the address is: Walther USA 2100 Roosevelt Avenue Springfield, MA That's S+W! I like Smith revolvers but gun owners have to prove their point and that means S+W has to pay the price.
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Don't drag Walther into this fracas. They are not related to S&W at the moment. They are a seperate, and legal entity from S&W. The only thing they share AT THE MOMENT is the address.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:31:16 AM EDT
They could have set up the buy in such a way they could avoid the deal while still keeping the name, the gun plans, the dealer network, and the employees. They didn't feel like it.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 12:15:48 PM EDT
No, No, and No. The crowd that runs Saf-T-Hammer are/have been just as much ass kissers of the Anti's as was the previous owners of S&W. [xx(] I own S&Ws. I have bought "pre-agreement" S&Ws since the announcement. I will *NOT* buy any new S&W, I don't care how good it looks/shoots. [:(!] (And lately, I haven't seen anything new that would even cause me to want to weaken. S&W seems bent on re-hashing/custom shopping the same old things) [V] Gun owners can't just let them walk away with this one. I've seen way to many 'cavers' after they sold to SAF-T-HAMMER. (What a stupid name/concept anyway)
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 12:32:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By pcgod: Until then I too must boycott S+W. This boycott should also include the Walther P99. If you check the P99 warranty card the address is: Walther USA 2100 Roosevelt Avenue Springfield, MA That's S+W! I like Smith revolvers but gun owners have to prove their point and that means S+W has to pay the price.
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Don't drag Walther into this fracas. They are not related to S&W at the moment. They are a seperate, and legal entity from S&W. The only thing they share AT THE MOMENT is the address.
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I was told Walther has contracted S+W for repairs and the like. Maybe I am taking this to extremes but but the friend of my enemy is not my friend.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:47:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:51:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:55:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:57:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:07:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 8:42:22 AM EDT
There are lots of good used S&W out there at bargain prices.
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 8:53:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: A turd in the punchbowl beats two in the hand. [:D]
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I've been pulling my brains out trying to figure out what you are saying but wild horses couldn't pay me enough. I believe that you, sir, aren't dealing with a full set of marbles.
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 8:56:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 5:56:59 PM EDT
Smith & Wesson? No, Nyet, Nein....sorry, but they are still friends of our enemies...and choose to remain so. I like their revolvers and would by a used one, but not a new one. I've told my old favorite gun shop I wouldn't be buying another gun from them while they sold S&W new stuff. Evidently, a lot of their customers told em' the same thing. No new S&W's there.
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 6:09:28 PM EDT
Oh yeah, where there is demand there will be companies to supply. Reality check guys, gun companies don't sprout up with quality products overnight. You will end up paying through the nose to pay for the new companies' R&D and tooling costs, prices will go up exponentially because supply will drop with the death of three of the largest producers of firearms in the country. Pure idiocy. Where were you idiots when S&W was going bankrupt with legal bills? Were you helping them pay the bills, no. It'll be a travesty to let the oldest name in American handguns go belly up because they made one mistake. Yeah, gun owners will take none of this crap because there won't be any guns to own. Wake the fuck up.
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