ETH -

re: "nobility"

Instant Karma unwittingly raises an intersting question....

Arans have tanks and planes to use against the Isreali civilians, but choose NOT TO.

Isrealis also have the capability to use tanks and planes against Arab civilians, but DO CHOOSE TO.

That's "noble" don'tcha think??? [}:D]

yeah, Arab suicide bombers going against ARMED, TRAINED Isrealis with full auto weapons.

yeah, I knew what you meant. And I also know you called those armed, trained isrealis "non-combatants."

Funny how the nightly news never shows the pics or tells the viewers those Isreali folk in teh coffee shops have FULL AUTO weapons. Poor oppressed ARMED Isrealis. Mind you, I don't begrudge them teh right to be armed. Heckski, I'm jealous. But PLEASE don't insult my intelligence in insinuating these are lambs to the slaughter.

And I STILL say -

I don't see how you can beleive the anti-gun lying media in ANYTHING they say. They'll lie about guns, they'll lie about ANYTHING. ANYTHING.

Once someboby lies to me ONCE, I don't beleive ANYTHING they tell me. Why do you?????

That is ONLY your assertion.

By their OWN statements, the Arabs beleive otherwise. See Instant karmas' post.

Suicide bombers going against armed trained Israelis??
When?
Those teenagers at the Pizza joint?
No.
When?
Those Israelis on the bus?
No.
When?


[b]"Isrealis also have the capability to use tanks and planes against Arab civilians, but DO CHOOSE TO."[/b]

Israelis do not target Arab civilians, anymore than we target Afghan civilians.
The Isralis have never targeted unarmed civilians.

The palestinains, on the other hand, parade about in their suicide bomber costumes.
They do in fact target unarmed civilians.
Look at recent history.

See the truth.

Post from 5subslr5 -

The 'First' Israeli War was the so-called 'War of Independence' which it fought against Egypt, Syria, Jordan, 'the Arab Legion', and to a degree, Saudi Arabia, in 1948. There was absolutely [b]no[/b] American military support or supplies for the fledgling Jewish State!

In Israel's 'Second' War, the British and French were Israel's allies. This war is referred to as the 'Suez War' since it was fought over the Egyptian seizure and closure of the Suez Canal, in 1956.

The combined forces of Israel, Britain and France easily overcame Egyptian forces and took complete control of the Suez! President Eisenhower insisted that the canal be returned to Egypt and 'poof' it was done! So not only was there [b]no[/b] American military support or supplies, those crazy Americans took the Egyptian side of the argument!

The 'Third' War that Israel fought was the 'Six Day War' in 1967. There was still no formal American military support or supplies in that war either! Remember, the Israelis were flying French Mirage fighters and French Dassault fighter-bombers during that war!

Finally, the 'Fourth' Israeli War in October, 1973, the 'Yom Kipur' War, was the first war in which American support and supplies were in abundance to assist the Israeli war effort.

Does anyone remember why?

Because Israel was 'our boy' in the Middle East, it served as our client state against Soviet intrigues in the area!

Surely ya'll remember that!

Eric The(ForgetIsrael?NotLikely!)Hun[>]:)]

There are armed Isrealis EVERYWHERE.

A FACT gun owners cite as rpoof full auto is OK.

ON THIS FORUM, we have posted pics of armed, female lingerie shoppers, and armed school teachers. ARMED Israleis are everywhere.

But now you wanna act like ARMED Isrealis are nowhere to be found??? [rolleyes]

Again, WHY is the media ONLY showing pics of dead "civilan" teenagers, and NOT the ARMED isrealis we KNOW are everywhere???

Why do you beleive the LYING media?? We KNOW they are liars. We KNOW they are, yet you are lapping up their jornalistic bias without so much as a second thought. WHY???

Why the willful blindness?

Eric, facts will never trump blind hatred.
It is pointless.

As usual, you distorted events.

Let me understand:
Were teenagers in the Dolphinarium disco in Tel Aviv armed with M16?
Were children in Ma'alot kibutz armed with M16?
Were children in Misgav Am armed with M16?
Were the civilians shot in the head to finish them in the Emanuel attack armed with M16?
Were all this people incidentally killed while the palestinian "patriots" were shooting to IDF soldiers?

The answer is: no, they were unarmed civilians.
This makes the difference.

The statement you said is dangerous, because is legittimating terrorists. Things would be very different if they would aim only military target. I would understand if during a commando action against IDF installation some civilian would be killed: as you said war is a dirty thing. But the targets of the terrorists are unarmed civilians.

I'm no expert here, but I'm pretty sure Isreal NEVER gets a middle east foothold without UN support in 1948. America essnetially created teh UN. Or at least, it would ahve ceased to exist without the US. And CERTAINLY britain was behing Isreali statehood in 1948.

So, your "no US military support "comment is QUITE misleading.

Evolutionarily, we would call this propping up the LEAST fit, so they can survive.

And you KNOW what a big fan I am of evolution!!!!!!!!!

garandman, are you really saying that ALL Israelis are armed, and are therefore legitimate combatants?
You can't possibly be saying that.

Are you suggesting that if the US were to adopt similar gun laws, that we too would no longer have any "civilians", just combatants?

That's silly.

Arabs used FREELY their planes and tanks in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973. And they miserably LOST all the war they tried to start. This is HISTORY, Garandman, not an opinion.

What a surprise - demonizing me as legitimizing terrorism.

Just like a week or so ago you equated me with Fawzi, the nazi trained advocate of jewish genocide. (No apolgy has yet been issued by you for that slanderous remark toward me. Not that I'm losing sleep waiting for it.)

Why do you Isreal supporters ALWAYS sink to slander??

Simple - becasue you arguments DON'T stand up in the light of day.

I'm not saying Isreal is evil. I'm not saying the Palestinains are anything other than the murders they have show themsleves to be.

I'm saying NEITHER side deserves US support, cuz they are ALL dirtbags. I sreal only fights nice cuz we arm them to, and force them to via US foreign aid.

Post from 5subslr5 -

If any war is fought ignobly, then it's being fought wrong no matter how great the cause may be!

You don't purposefully kill women and children and non-combatants and ask that God be on your side.

And the Palestinians have homelands they can occupy now! These homelands are called Jordan, Egypt, and Syria.

And don't say it's not the same, 'cause it is!

Do you think the newly united Federal Rebublic of Germany should be able to reclaim the Rhineland, Alsace-Lorraine, the Sudetenland, the Polish corridor, and East Prussia? Those lands were taken away from Germany as the result of defeat in battle.

Not because it was right or just that Germany lose these lands, but simply because they lost their war and were in no position to object to the victorious Allies redrawing of its boundaries!

So why are the 'five times a loser' Palestinians permitted to recover land lost in war?

Eric The(Hmmmm?)Hun[>]:)]

Maybe because the aim of the terrorists were not the armed people but the teenagers?

yeah, and that history has absolutely NO bearing on the Arab world today, and what they are capable of militarily.

The LARGEST difference being the worldwide dependence on Arab oil, and how it has enriched teh Arabs, bolserting their armies and ordnance.

Gee, based on you "logic" Korea and 'Nam should have indicated we would have NO chance in Desert Storm or the current war on terrorism.

The arab believed always to defeat Israel in 48, 56, 67, 73... but between wishes and reality there is a big gap...

The British were AGAINST the statehood. Balfour Declaration of 1917 was betraied by british govt. thousand times.

This is written in every decent history book. But as you said, you are not an expert...

Their ARE ARMED Isralis everywhere. A target WITHOUT ARMED Isrealis does not exist (practically speaking)

The SAME media that NEVER reports a defensive gun use in teh USA, where even teh most anti-gun liars admit thay occur over 70K times per year, and most estimates report occur over 1 million times per year, THAT same lying media, is gonna tell the WHOLE story here?

I doubt it. Liars lie. And the media are proven liars.

I beleive I said 1948, not 1917. At which time Britain spearheaded Jewish statehood. To my recollection.

Hint: read the post - don't kneejerk in reaction.

[rolleyes]

Jews are a very small percentage of the population, it takes a lot of non-jews to get them elected.  Feinswine just received a 2-1 approval rating by the Caliban.  Does she represent the majority of Caliban voters, or is she elected by the socialist democratic block vote?

Post from Major Murphy -

I hope you are wrong on this, Major, since blind hatred of Israel is something that I would associate with Osama Bin Laden and his ilk, not with fellows with whom we share a great deal of agreement on this Board!

[b]Fellows, in this current war we are allied with Israel, like it or not. And tiny little Israel is allied with us, like it or not.[/b]

So when you start bitching about Israel, you're bitching about a country who would be assisting this country in times of severe national crisis! Like the present crisis!

And yet some of you do not like this, some of you resent this, and some of you continue to attack Israel, notwithstanding the fact...let me say this slowly...that the current enemies of the United States are the very same as the current enemies of Israel!

Thank God in Heaven you boys weren't alive and in charge of military alliances during WWII!

The thought of allying yourself with Uncle Jo Stalin - is that any easier to swallow than allying yourself with Israel?

Eric The(ForSomeOfYou-ApparentlyNot!)Hun[>]:)]

I believe she was elected by space aliens.

Or possibly mall ninjas.

[:D]

Please ellighten me as to what Israel is doing to help us in this war on terrorism.

They sent us wonderful warm condolances on Sept. 12.

They bombed Hamas AFTER Hamas attacked them (read: self-interest)

Oh yeah - they give us that wonderful, non-descript intangible called "intelligence." Which apparently wasn't "intelligent" enuf to prevent Beirut, 1993 WTC, or 2001 WTC, or a host of other attacks.

garand(IWantARefund)man

Garandman, why exactly do you hate the Israelies so much?  Is it because they are Jewish?  Because they are the ones you blame for killing your savior?


The reason the palestinians use rocks thrown by kids ( while their fathers and brothers stand behind them with ARs and AKs) is people like you who will blindly take their side after being duped.

Remember that little boy and his father who were taken out on camera?  
Did you see the evidence indicating that it was the palestinians who killed them?

Nice try to paint me as a racist hater. It's ONLY Canadians that I can't stand!! [}:D]

Christ offers salvation FREELY to ALL Jews. The ones responsible for Christs crucifixion, as far as I can tell, are long since dead. And Chrsit offered THEM salvation, so NO, I hold nothing against ANY Jew for that whole thing.

Quite the opposite. My contention is that in misleading them into thinking they are god's chosen people OUTSIDE of Jesus Chrsit may cause them to miss seeing their Messiah. WHich would be the ULTIMATE anti-Semitic thing to do.




Ya know, I saw an interview where one of these little truants DID in FACT mention my name specifically in making him think he was justified in throwing rocks. Oddly, the father also mentioned my name in the same fashion.

You can only respond to a stupid comment like that with ANOTHER stupid comment, so there you have it.


[rolleyes]

Stormbriinger confuses causality with justification.  What can I say - conversation over.

Apparenly, it is ALMOST impossible for the isreal supporters to have this discussion without slandering, falsely accusing or belittling those who make counterpoints in this 'debate."

Nazi
anti-semtic
jew hater
terrorist supporter
association of others with  advocates of genocide

ETH being the exception to the rule. "Course, ol ETH FAILS to use his moderator powers for good to stop or edit these slanderous terms,  castigate those who use them, or evenly calmly suggest others NOT use these terms, when a pretty CLEAR case can be made that these terms are OUTSIDE of acceptable board policy.

So, I'm outta here. Have your little love fest, but I'm gone from this thread.

[:D]

Ok lets try this again S   l  o  w  l  y

I did not as you say call you
Nazi
anti-semtic
jew hater
terrorist supporter
association of others with advocates of genocide

or anything similar.  I simply asked you WHY you seem to have a dislike for the Israelis.

You have answered that one:  You do not like them because they do not bow down to god the same way you do.  Point taken.  Therefore I better look over my shoulder before you send some palestinians after me and my athiest views.

I did not mention that the PLO plan was just for your benifit....it is for people LIKE YOU!!

You are not alone in being taken in by these oh so sweet children and their dance with death.

Chump -

You don't even lie very well.

You DID NOT ask me why I "seem to dislike."

You asked me



So, you DID call me a Jew hater.

Forget it pal - first you slander me, now you lie. next, you'll delete BOTH posts to dodge repsonsibility for your gutless actions.

(Apologies to the board - couldn't let this one go)

G-man,
You seem to have taken to name calling in this thread. Chump, Dufus. Condecending terms like "Son" The incessant use of [rolleyes].
Give it a break allready. You are just trying to bolster your weak position with what are essentialy insults.

..... facts will never blind trumped hatred.


Eric The(IAbsolutelyAgreeWith5subslr5)Hun[>]:)][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Somehow every swastika tatted person in the world can now trace their hatred of the Jews back to the USS Liberty. I must have ran across 750 guys on the internet who “served with ole’ captain soinso” bla what a pile ‘o sh**.

Ten years from now, some Arian Nation fool is going to take ten minutes out of his busy day lifting weights in ‘the yard’, and write a pamphlet about how the Israelis tinkered with the guidance systems on our bombs ….
Thus causing all the friendly fire causalities in Afghanistan.

And then I’ll get to listen to every fool in the world say they hate the Jews because of what they did in Afghanistan.    


Go get your tats touched up and sell it to somebody who’s buying.

 Can't argue with this pearl of wisdom. Cut the crap, is that you O.J. ?
                          GIB (zzzzzz)

Yes, sure.
Everybody is armed in Israel. Children, teachers, firemen, nuns, rabbis, doctors, university professor.
No one of the jews is innocent. Everyone deserve to be targeted.
It's only the media, tv newspaper, that hide all this, the evil media.
All in Israel are armed.
Even terrorists...

oh... did I slandered you? So sorry...

Investigation----------------Date----Conclusion
===============================================
U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry-June 10-18, 1967-The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.
==============================================
CIA Report-June 13, 1967-The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.
==============================================
Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report)-June 9-20, 1967-Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack
==============================================
Clifford Report-July 18, 1967-No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence."
==============================================
Senate Committee on Foreign Relations-1967-Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.
==============================================
Senate Armed Services Committee-Feb. 1, 1968-No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.
==============================================
House Appropriations Committee-April-May 1968-Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.
==============================================
House Armed Services Committee-May 10, 1971-Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions
==============================================
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence-1979-Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.
==============================================
National Security Agency-1981-Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.
==============================================
House Armed Services Committee-June 1991-Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.
==============================================

You’ve already demonstrated that logic is not an issue here, so I didn’t attempt to argue facts. Fact is every person who’s ever looked into what really happened to the USS Liberty has come to the conclusion that it was GNRIFF.(Gross Negligence Resulting In Friendly Fire)

Something that happens in every war.

[url]http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011221/ts/attack_convoy_dc.html[/url]  

Dear Instant Karma, the evidences you brought are a confirm of what I read on the book of Benny Morris "Righteous Victims", in the chapter dedicated to the 1967 war.
Thank you.


Of course, for somebody else CIA, the US Navy, The Senate Commitee, NSA are full of jews and the truth has been hidden....

Did I slander anyone this time?

Edited because even athiests like me can realize that in the XXX mas season one should try and be nice.


Have a very merry Christmas Garandman...

I really do think that you are an Aok individual....even if we do not see eye to eye on many issues.

How can the Israelis be right every single time and the Palestinians wrong every time?

I have no [b]earthly[/b] idea. [>]:)]

_____________________________________________
Maybe it's just carmel.
[:D]

OK Garandman,
Christ offers salvation FREELY to ALL Jews. The ones responsible for Christs crucifixion, as far as I can tell, are long since dead. And Chrsit offered THEM salvation, so NO, I hold nothing against ANY Jew for that whole thing.

Jesus was a Jew, he was a Rabbi, he kept the law, and never denounced being a Jew. The Jews did not crucify him as that is a punishment reserved solely for use by the Romans. So it was the Romans that did it. Paul did a spin and made it the Jews as he was selling Jesus to the Romans.
No matter what you say on December 25, you will celebrate the birth of a little Jewish boy,
Barauch Ata Adonai......

Why is it that whenever someone, in these discussions, is accused of anti-semitism, they always counter by justifying their distrust/hatred of jews/Israel with all the same information that you would find on David Duke's or the Klan's website?

Those are, after all, the best places to find huge collections of quotes and information that will help any rabid anti-semite in defending their positions.

It certainly is interesting.

Post from TheWind -

Not just any 'little Jewish boy', but the One Who was a Light Unto the Gentiles, to those who stood afar off.

If Jesus of Nazareth is [b]not[/b] the long awaited and promised 'Messiah', then there simply is no such thing as a 'Messiah' and Judaism is just another interesting, but ultimately dead-end, Middle Eastern religion.

And Christianity is simply a very long running Jewish joke. On us all.

If Jesus is not Who He said He was, then the Hebrew Prophets prophesied but in vain.

Eric The(ButSurelyYouDon'tBelieveThat!)Hun[>]:)]

"Who" He was, was defined a lot of years after He went "away."  (Diplomacy in action)

The Sanhedrin seemed to know what His claims meant, while He was still alive! 'It is better for one man to die, than for the nation to perish.'

So, 5subslr5, how long do you believe that it took for His dispirited Disciples to turn their story of utter dispair and the loss of their leader into a miracle?

5 years, 10 years, what?

And they all suffered torture and grievous deaths protecting what they all knew to be a lie?

Eric The(Why?'CauseItWouldPutMoneyInTheirPockets?)Hun[>]:)]