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Posted: 12/9/2001 7:24:06 PM EDT
Just went and did paintball for the first time today. Damn was that fun!! I must say that I can't believe that the anti's are not screaming to end this sport. I can't think of better tactical group training. It was para-military for goodness sake! Small-unit tactics etc. What a blast and highly educational for me. I would recommend 100% if you haven't tried it yet.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 7:28:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: Just went and did paintball for the first time today. Damn was that fun!! I must say that I can't believe that the anti's are not screaming to end this sport. I can't think of better tactical group training. It was para-military for goodness sake! Small-unit tactics etc. What a blast and highly educational for me. I would recommend 100% if you haven't tried it yet.
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I played paintball the first time back in the splatmaster and PMI-1 days of 1988. Been an addict ever since.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 7:41:07 PM EDT
yah, paintball is awsome. into it big time. i traded some paintball guns to sean nealon (AKA GARRYOWEN) for a CAV lower. awsome stuff
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 7:43:24 PM EDT
Its not just tactics. You learn combat common sense. Like keeping your head down. Not exposing yourself. Stupid things that would get you killed really fast in combat. Not to mention patience and the real meaning of firepower!
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 7:46:06 PM EDT
Cassidy dont get involved. It gets expensive. You hate getting knocked off because your weapon sucks. Before you know it you have a state of the art gun, gas supply, match paintballs (yes they have them), camo, webgear, ammo refill canisters, boots, secondary weapon. Not to mention a helmet and fees. Its amazing how many paintballs are used during a 5-10min firefight.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 8:49:24 PM EDT
I havent played paintball in about 3 months. I am itching to get out a fight. We started out with three guys with walmart paintball guns, and now its 14 of us that constantly upgrade equipment.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 9:28:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 9:31:56 PM EDT
It's addicting, we have a group that's played together for 2 years (not a competition team, just friends against each other) at a local indoor arena. Damn, we have fun. You go the first couple times and rent the stuff, then someone breaks down and buys a kick butt gun, then all of you have to. Awesome!
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 9:47:42 PM EDT
DK you're absolutely correct. But you realize that poking your noggin up and looking around is a bad idea. Not to mention there are multiple fields of fire and not what is just in front of you. I think its a good start. Most of us will never see combat and this is the closest we will ever get! Some police departments and Special forces do use paintball guns for training. The police have full auto guns that shoot stink balls and pepper gas. Now wouldnt that be fun! Imagine the trouble most of us would get into with those.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 5:55:10 AM EDT
I hear Airsoft is a fast developing 'sport'. You can get real looking rifles like AR's and AK's and they shoot alot farther and more accurately.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 6:02:13 AM EDT
My name is slugbait and I am a paintball aholic. Ok a former paintball aholic, it got to damn expensive with all the new hi tech guns and the amount of paint you go through. From my experience paintball tactics would get you killed in the real world because massive aggressiveness wins in paintball. you do crazy things because you know you walk off not get carried of. It is great fun though. MHO
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 6:03:52 AM EDT
Good things you learn from paintball: 1. Be aware of everything around you, not just what is in front of you. 2. Try not to be seen. (recommended viewing, the instructional film "How Not To Be Seen) Bad habits it is possible to pick up from paintball: 1. Things act as cover in paintball that wouldn't even be considered concealment in a firefight. 2. A lot of spraying n' praying goes on in paintball. 3. You get cocky about exposing yourself in the open because you are handily out of range of a paintball marker, the same exposure will get you killed going against somebody armed with a firearm. Will you pick up those habits? I don't know.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 6:06:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Having spent all of my past time in the military as infantry, I often wonder how useful paintball experience might be.
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it would be exactly 55,000 times more useful as tactical training than sitting in front of a TV. [:)] my favorite games are against the cadets at West Point. they use cheap rental guns, and ALWAYS win in an embarrassingly short amount of time.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 6:16:12 AM EDT
Paintball is great fun, I've enjoyed it for just over two years. The more you play, the more you learn, too. If you liked the "para-military" aspect of the games you played, then I suggest that you stay away from the "speedball" aspect of paintball. Speedball is best suited for small, quick, and "flashy" (for lack of better terms) players. I really enjoy playing scenario games with 50-100 players in 25 acres of timber. Firefights are hot, strategy and tactics are a must, no rambo will survive more than 20 seconds. There are all kinds of games you can devise. So far, I've spent $700 on gear, guns, and equipment. I use a tricked out Tippmann 98 with a 10in Smartparts barrell. I wear camo BDUs, a OD thermal lensed mask, and carry a 6 tube (840 rounds of reloads) in a harness. Yes, it real easy to spend some money on the hobby, but when the time comes to hold of a horde of opponents and you've got the equipment to do so, you'll be thankful... JRB
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 6:36:07 AM EDT
Played since 88. Did the tournaments for a ‘few’ years. Military personal playing for the first time tend to do badly first time out fit they show up with a ‘I’m an professional solder’ attitude. When they learn the differences (you can’t die,..) they start to have fun and win some. SSD
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 6:56:26 AM EDT
God do I miss paintball. My only gripe is I'm OldSkool. I remember when a BUSHMASTER was a pump-gun and not the electro/pneumatic semi-auto(8 shots per sec? is semi auto?!?!?!) that it is today. My two absolute favorite markers were my CCI Phantom and my WorrGames Sniper II. I was able to handle the first generation semi's by longballing but things went really hi-tech and it became a game based on how much $$$ you could spend and not on skill anymore. I'll still play a stock-class or pump game with ANYONE if they want.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:22:42 AM EDT
Just went over to [url]www.pbnation.com[/url] where there is a discussion forum. There was a question regarding military style paintball guns. The responses were interesting. Apparently camo and military style guns are a no no nowadays. It is too paramilitaristic don't you know. They call their guns 'markers' because they don't want to call them guns and they don't want to wear camo because they feel that others will think paintball is paramilitary. I had to laugh. If running around the woods shooting at each other is not simulated war, I don't know what is. The place was filled with a bunch of PC, Million Mommy boys.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:40:38 AM EDT
i dont know i tried paintball i liked it but i looked at the cost of all the gear and said screw it i can buy a real firearm for the same price as a decent entery level rig
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:41:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: Just went over to [url]www.pbnation.com[/url] where there is a discussion forum. There was a question regarding military style paintball guns. The responses were interesting. Apparently camo and military style guns are a no no nowadays. It is too paramilitaristic don't you know. They call their guns 'markers' because they don't want to call them guns and they don't want to wear camo because they feel that others will think paintball is paramilitary. I had to laugh. If running around the woods shooting at each other is not simulated war, I don't know what is. The place was filled with a bunch of PC, Million Mommy boys.
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They do those thing to keep HCI, MMM and others off there backs. They want the sport to be legal not legislated out of existance.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 8:11:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Does it really? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but geniuinely curious. Having spent all of my past time in the military as infantry, I often wonder how useful paintball experience might be. I can certainly see the value in people developing situational awareness and the importance of moving and using cover - but isn't there the possibility of learning as many good habits as bad? I keep thinking I should try it, but I know one of two things will happen. (1) I'll either think it's dorky compared to "real" infantry tactics, and annoy everyone else with my superior attitude, or (2) do exactly what you warned about and get way too into it, and let it get out of control and WAY to expensive. [:D]
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Ask the Marines....the last time I went down to LeJune the 'combat town' had a whole MESS of old paintball splats. Bulldog OUT
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 9:04:28 AM EDT
I love paintball! I'm way satisfied with my custom Spyder. Nothing fancy, but it works great! I recommend everyone play paintball. It is great for CQB if you do it right. If you want to see some great military guns check out: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/4608/paintindex.html I want to get the H&K MP5 from them next summer. Use a remote tank and it will be cool!!
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 10:23:07 AM EDT
I have quit playing and am encouraging friends to quit, upon finding out from pro-gun pro-freedom conservative talk-show host/G&A columnist Tom Gresham, that paintball is little more than training for terrorists, school-shooters and murderers. I am sure that analogous of this, firearms training such as front-sight or thunder ranch where the targets aren't humans but simulated humans is very much the same in it's terrorist intent.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 10:39:53 AM EDT
ErickM...Get a life! Paintball is as evil as much as your black gun is evil!! Get real!!!
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 10:42:09 AM EDT
Paintball is a blast. I've got a Tippman 98, totally stock, with a 16" rifled barrel. Our 3-man team is pretty impressive. We've played a couple of tournament teams and we pulverized them. Most tourny players can't hang with woods players. They spend $800-$1200 on paintball guns and still can't compete with the accuracy of our $150 guns. It's alot of fun but I can see where someone could pick up bad habits for real-world situations. You just have to realize there is a huge difference between a paintball and a bullet. The basics like camouflage, concealment, cover, teamwork, ammo conservation, suppressive fire, and team communication are picked up very quickly.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 11:08:26 AM EDT
Got started in paintball by a Plt Sgt who used it to provide a bit of break for us during tactical training exercises at the fire team level. When I got out, my brother was bigtime into it so I started going but my interest has waned a bit. I'd be a big time fan myself but I just can't get over how expensive a low-powered air gun is! ChrisG
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 11:28:19 AM EDT
Cassidy- Paintball has strived, and with good reason, to disassociate itself from the paramilitary image over the years. The anti's *have* tried several times here in California and I'm sure elsewhere to ban paintguns because before it was as well known as it is now it had quite a negative perception in people's minds. The notion of people shooting projectiles at one another just comes too close to real war for some people, on both sides of the debate. I've read accounts of paintball people being prohibited from selling their wares at gun shows because the gun show people couldn't get over the hangup of the fact that we actually point our guns at people. I'm not sure where you played, but in many parts of the country the sport is moving away/has moved away from the wide open natural foliage type fields to manmade ones using all variety of materials to construct symmetrical fields that are designed to provide even games, not realistic military engagements. I'm sure anyone who's seen or played on sup'air style or hyperball style fields can agree that the relationship that can be seen between games on those fields and military action exists only if one deliberately constructs it. If you want a more realistic look of what the game is like today, I suggest you pick up a copy of Paintball GAmes International, a magazine which focuses on modern tournament play. As it moved more into the mainstream over the past four or five years (which I credit the economy), it became ever more a game that provides intense adrenaline rushes which can be enjoyed by people of all sorts, and less of a fantasy land for war hungry types who want to get as close to the "Real Thing" as they can but still laugh about it afterwords. If it's true parmilitary action you're looking for, I think Airsoft is much more up your alley. Those guns are built to the exact dimensions of the real firearms they are intended to replicate, so the emphasis is on realism, not trying to win the game. Waverunner-Stock class rocks. I've had a phantom for over 3 years now, and for a while it was my primary gun. I found that with dedication one can compete with all the fast semis if one really wants to, but pump-only games are some of the funnest ones I've ever played. I'm more into the tournament scene now, but I will always love playing stock class. Personally, on most fields I've played on, real military tactics are next to useless. Basic concepts such as "flanking your opponent is good" and "the one with the momentum is likely to win" are valuable, but unless you plan to get two groups of people who are dedicated to playing along paramilitary lines it's just not going to work. Showing up on a saturday or sunday and trying to organize the dentists, construction guys, teachers, etc. who decided to show up that morning into cohesive military units will never work. The few times I've bothered to watch military people who showed up to play, I've noticed that usually they think they're going to be a lot more dominant on the field than they usually are. Some will do quite well for their experience level, but I think that had more to do with their personality than their training. Paintball is it's own beast. Golgo was quite right about there being so many things in paintball that just wouldn't work with real fire fights that training designed to work in real firefights just isn't going to be of much value.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 11:35:54 AM EDT
It's been a few years since I tried paintball. I had to use the weapons from the place and they were ridiculously inaccurate. A couple of guys with the really great semi auto (I think) won every game. I got kicked out of paintball because one of those guys thought it was funny to keep shooting me. I side kicked him in the chest. I asked him to stop. He laughed called me a sore loser shot me again. I kicked him. His friends made sounds like we're gonna do this and that but did nothing. Owner asked me to leave.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 11:50:46 AM EDT
Capt. Sanity - Yeah I have seen the indoor Speedball tourney type thing and it doesn't look fun to me at all. I'd rather run around the woods and play army like when we were kids and had BB Gun wars. Most people I know that play paintball are into the same thing. It is great fun and as another said here, is about "55,000 times better training than sitting in front of a computer." If we look like camo-wearing para-militaries - then so be it. In fact, it would be better if the paintballers had to deal with what we have to deal with as far as legal issues and all the liberal hysteria. Then they could actually get involved in the fight to protect RKBA. Because lets face it, running around shooting each other with guns is exactly what paintball is -- SIMULATED WAR. Lots of paintballers try to dress it up like it is something else, but it is what it is there is no real denying it.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 1:39:39 PM EDT
ah yes paintball :) a coupl of other guys and I went to play onbe day, but no one else showed up beacuase it was raining a bit... so we got the jeep we were in covered with mud and drove around the center of town with four guys in full cammo with a bunch of kaki bags in the back blasting wutang or something... it would have been funny as hell if some cp had pulled us over but oh well :)
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 3:41:14 PM EDT
I played for a sponsored paintball team for seven years. The major difference between the weekenders and a tourny team is speed and teamwork. Our team would drill for hours to cordinate fire and movement. Paintball is an angles and movement game at the higher levels. You work to gain an angle which pins the opponent with fire while a fellow team member moves to eliminate that player. Once that area is breached the team then continues angling and moving to exploit the breach. We had several military and LEO units "train" with us and none of then could counter our techniques, they would go D (defensive) and were pretty easy to eliminate. To give them a chance at all they would need at least a 2 to 1 ratio in players. No offense they just could not handle the speed and concentrated fire. Paintball strategy often involves risking a player to gain an objective. This goes against most training but is very effective since the object is not to live but to win the game. This mindset is more than a little dangerous in the real world. After playing big league paintball several positive traits are honed to a very high level. Situational awareness, reaction time, firing on the run, user of cover, and many others. A new player and most of the LEO and military outfits get tunnel vision, bunker down and get lost in the "fog" of the game. A well drilled paintball team is poetry in motion. Two very good teams playing each other is a chess match played in fast motion. Once a team gains an advantage often the game is over in a matter of seconds. Since our team was sponsored I have about 15K in guns and gear that I have accumulated over the years. Most of it is not real pretty (flying into bunkers tends to scratch stuff up) but it was all maintained very well. These include Angels, Shockers, and RT's that I would sell pretty cheap. Some of the guns have factory upgrades that went only to the factory sponsored teams. If interested email me.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:04:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2001 3:57:48 PM EDT by Redmanfms]
Rabbi Mermelstein over at [url]www.jpfo.org[/url] doesn't really like the idea of paintball because you are pointing a gun at a person. His idea makes sense for keeping children out of the sport, but I don't see it as a problem with adults. I don't like it for another reason: Tactics learned in paintball will get you killed in a real gun fight. Accurate engagement range of a paintball gun is something like 35-40 yards (I know the hardcore paintballers will say it's much farther than that), whereas a rifle (or even a freakin' pistol) will reach out and kill you much farther away than that. Paintball emphasizes speed over cover, very, very dangerous when faced with firearms. I don't like the crowd I've met at paintball places around my home either. Many are anti-gun assholes who somehow think their sport isn't (poorly) simulated war. They are also poor sports. If you want training that will actually work and is fun, hook up with your local IDPA league and have fun.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:11:24 PM EDT
AIRSOFT - Better tactical training, and even more fun! (did I mention it's usually much cheaper also)? [:)]
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:58:41 PM EDT
I have a ton of paintball stuff for sale or trade (in NC Only for trade) if anyone is interested.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 5:36:27 PM EDT
I have played many times this year. I found it was very educational in terms of awareness of exposures and stratagy in a non-lethal environment. I too have played with LEOs and military trained personnel. In both cases their process led to their loss as more aggressive tactics are needed in the short, woods based, games. We typically use a 20 minute time limit per session, and the LEOs in particular were not accustomed to the pace. I too agree that cover in paintball would never suffice as cover against m193, but disagree that the training is therefore not valid. One needs to adjust strategy to meet the current need in any defense, and real world fire needs real world cover. I do believe, as has been stated, that it is 55,000 times better than "computer based training". My first game I stuck up my head to see what was going on and was caught square in the face with a pink paint ball. It never happened again. And in the real world it never would either. [8D]
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 5:45:48 PM EDT
Cassidy- Heh...you should try speedball before you call it boring. It's all the stress of the paintball shootouts condensed into pure form. Paintball is extremely peculiar in the fact that it's extremely boring to watch and extremely exciting to play. Yes I'll agree that unfortunately many avid paintball players fail to see that the anti's will eventually make dedicated moves to ban the sport. My opinion is that this will happen after enough sensationalized "drive by" type incidents occur. The move by companies such as Brass Eagle to put paintguns into the mass market outlets such as wal-mart where people who use these things for mischief but otherwise wouldn't have known where to get one is also part of the problem. A crucial step the sport can make to avoid such a fate is to get accepted as close to a mainstream activity as it can; that means leaving the weekend commando mystique behind for a more antiseptic "sport" look. Yes, I see the "simulated war" aspect of the game: groups of people carrying devices that shoot projectiles at each other in attempts to eliminate members of the opposing force. That's precisely what the anti's will see too, and if the game clings to a paramilitary image it's going to get lumped in with the separatist and other militia type organizations in the court of public opinion. More paintball players should realize the battles that will be faced with lawmakers in the future and take things seriously, but as I and others here pointed out, there are plenty on the side of RKBA who don't like us either. Kind of the way Evil Black Rifle owners are starting to be marginalized in parts of the country. Siding with people who don't want us because they can't escape the issue of pointing "guns" at others for fun is a tenuous proposition. Any way one plays it, it's still one of the most stimulating things a person can do. I just advise caution when subscribing to the paramilitary aspect of it.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 7:34:33 PM EDT
Well said CaptSanity. I really enjoy it and I think I will keep playing for the fun of it. Since most everybody that goes there wears camo, I won't feel out of place. Not sure if I could get myself to wear one of those paintball bright colored jerseys though.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 7:55:09 PM EDT
I loved my old AUTOMAG with the smarsparts barrel, and my custom 16 inch barrel...not too shabby!!! I was the SAW, and boy I went through alot of paintballs. HAvent played in over 3 years though.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 5:24:50 PM EDT
Anybody here play in PA? I'm always up for a game or two. In 1988 when I was 13 I saved my two dollar a day lunch money allowance for months till I had 150 bucks and could buy a PMI 1 and have been addicted ever since. I played some pro in the 90's till all the guys on the team got married (dunb shits) and we could not get together enough to stay competetive and politically active. I played in the 91-92 Nashville Masters, the first 3 Zap Amatuer Opens (taking 2nd in the 5 man and 3rd in the 10 man in 91', and in 92' we took 2nd in the 10 man and 7th in the 5 man), a few NPPL tourneys (all over the place), won a bunch of locals (Sgt Yorks the best tournament field ever). Wolf's Lair was without doubt the funnest field I have ever played on if anyone else was there in the 90's you will agree. And the military guys usually got their asses kicked until they forgot all the "sniping" bullshit and played the game for what it was, a game.
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