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Posted: 12/8/2001 7:39:38 AM EDT
I just flew for the 1st time since 9/11. In Houston the Guardsmen/women had m-16's. In Midland, no guardsmen, in Tulsa they had beretta's. My boss, former army, didn't believe they had loaded weapons. I thought it looked like it was on burst with the safety on, so why would they do the safety with unloaded? What is the forum's opinion? Do you let the weekend warriors walk around cocked and locked? BTW I got searched twice. Only issue was the guy that picked up my little basket with wallet, laptop and pocket contents dropped my silver money clip. I was cooperative until he was done and I found the money clip missing. I told him that he was now going to find the moneyclip. He said he could not move from the wand area. I said "I was cooperative, you lost my sterling silver clip, let's go find it" the guardsmen behind him, laughed and walked away. He found my clip. It was a gift from the redhead, I would rather face the m16 than her if I lost the thing.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 7:50:16 AM EDT
COZ, you've asked the $.69 question that goes back to the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut. In Beirut the sentries were ordered to have their weapons UNLOADED. Move to the barracks bombing in Saudi - weapons unloaded. I don't know about the Embassy bombings. The USS Cole incident - no firearms even on deck. I heard one mention on the news that was quickly cut-off that the National Guard had blanks in their weapons. One airport, I can't remember which, doesn't allow the Guard to carry any weapons. It may well be that loaded, unloaded, blanks or no weapons is dependent on the individual state governors. After all, these are merely people in green serving their nation and can't be very important. Can we all say "Walking targets ?"
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:35:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: COZ, you've asked the $.69 question that goes back to the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut. In Beirut the sentries were ordered to have their weapons UNLOADED. Move to the barracks bombing in Saudi - weapons unloaded. I don't know about the Embassy bombings. The USS Cole incident - no firearms even on deck. I heard one mention on the news that was quickly cut-off that the National Guard had blanks in their weapons. One airport, I can't remember which, doesn't allow the Guard to carry any weapons. It may well be that loaded, unloaded, blanks or no weapons is dependent on the individual state governors. After all, these are merely people in green serving their nation and can't be very important. Can we all say "Walking targets ?"
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Don't know about where u are, but here at SFO the m16's didn't even have mags in them the first few days.. then somone snapped a photo and magazines were handed out. Bet you next months bonus they ain't got nutin in em
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:38:34 AM EDT
Vampire, no bet !!
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:45:09 AM EDT
In the late 80s, in Germany, we would have to pull guard duty at the front gate of our small airfield near Frankfurt. The Guard shack had 5" thick glass. It was supposed to be able to stop a law rocket. Anyway, here is the chain of events had we been attacked: I call on the field phone to the Sgt of the GUard saying we are being shot at He calls the base commander via telephone. Commander calls Division commander. Gets permission to hand bullets out. Commander callst sgt of the guard back and says "give em bullets" Sgt of the guard uses a key, to open a key box, and signs out key to safe. Goes to another building, opens safe and gets the ammo out. Brings ammo to guards. Hrmmmm wonder how long we would have lasted. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:46:37 AM EDT
To be quite frank, IF (GOD forbid) something does happen, and these guys are unloaded as we pretty much all suspect, i have NO sympathy for them. They arn't speaking up and whatever happens to them happens. Same attitude when cops get ehem... "hurt".
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:47:02 AM EDT
I feel so safe now.... Guess I'll have to let my boss know he was right in his guess....
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:48:50 AM EDT
I was watching a the 6pm news one day, at L.A. International, they have loaded mags, but not one in the chamber. The reporter said that they carry 2 20 round mags. So what? The hi-jackers on 9/11 used plastic knives and box cutters.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:02:27 AM EDT
I know for a fact the guard weapons are loaded where I live (NE).
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:31:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Coz_45-age-caliber: My boss, former army, didn't believe they had loaded weapons.
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At the Orange County airport, your boss would be right: [img]http://www.lpconnect.com/pb2/airportguard.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:38:47 AM EDT
guys in "the know" tell me the army guard in the airports are not loaded.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:44:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2001 9:37:45 AM EDT by tc6969]
Originally Posted By Coz_45-age-caliber: I thought it looked like it was on burst with the safety on, so why would they do the safety with unloaded?
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How can it be on burst AND safety? Isnt that all on the same selector? Or do I need to study up on modern M-16's? (Maybe I do! Its not 1971 anymore!) (Edited for layout)
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:55:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tom32: I know for a fact the guard weapons are loaded where I live (NE).
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I assume you've seen them in Eppley? They're loaded.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 10:41:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2001 10:36:44 AM EDT by J_Smith]
If anyone if walking around with unloaded weapons, their chain of command is a bunch of damn fools. Right now, the US Army overseas has weapons in amber status. That is a locked magazine, no round chamber unless there is perceived to be a threat. Plenty of rounds for guards - I won't say how many for OPSEC sake . If anyone in the Guard does not have live rounds, they should quit their post and go home - unarmed guards are completely useless. BTW - Does the California National Guard still use Vietnam era M16's?! The picture isn't even an A1 style?! WTF? I know Guard and Reserves are behind on equipment - but damn.......
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 11:13:38 AM EDT
I've talked to guardsmen at several major airports. Most have empty mag pouches and an empty mag inserted in their M16's. One female MP had an empty Beretta but told me there were rounds in the mags in her pouch. In other words, they're carrying expensive sticks and rocks. Interesting aside: In the early '80's I was made the flight line security officer at Kaneohe Bay Marine Corps Air Station. The security platoon was armed with nightsticks. I passed out shotguns. The next morning I was standing in front of a Colonel's desk and ordered to put the shotguns back in the armory.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 11:54:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 12:01:37 PM EDT
Each states National Guard recieves it's orders and sop from the designated commander in that state. Each state can and does have different policies. While the guard in some states may not have been issued ammo, and some not even mags, ours have live rounds in weapons. KCBoomer, I haven't been to Eppley since the callup. I was getting my information from the OIC in NE who is a good friend.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 12:09:29 PM EDT
Originally posted by Vampire To be quite frank, IF (GOD forbid) something does happen, and these guys are unloaded as we pretty much all suspect, i have NO sympathy for them. They arn't speaking up and whatever happens to them happens. Same attitude when cops get ehem... "hurt". What the hell do you mean by speaking up? A Soldier follows his orders. The Brass makes the stupid rules and the grunts on the ground pay the price. If you have no sympathy for them you are wrong. I hope you can see my point.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 12:20:12 PM EDT
Cocked & Locked? I doubt it. Pataki finally ordered the unarmed troops to be replaced by armed troops who have received firearms training. The troops I saw in NYC were unarmed. [url]http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-10-30/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-130322.asp[/url] From: News and Views | City Beat | Tuesday, October 30, 2001 Gov Arming Guards To Protect City By JOE MAHONEY and CORKY SIEMASZKO Daily News Staff Writers Gov. Pataki ordered the arming of all National Guard troops at Ground Zero and city transportation hubs last night after the FBI issued a new terrorism warning about possible attacks at home and abroad this week. "We will do everything possible to protect the people of New York," he said. "At the same time, it's important for all of us to continue to live our lives as normally as possible. We must not and will not give in to fear." The National Guard will soon carry guns in NYC hotspots. Pataki spokesman Mike McKeon said 470 troops guarding Ground Zero, area airports, Penn Station, Grand Central Terminal and other spots will be carrying loaded weapons by the end of the week. "It is appropriate to augment their mission by having them armed," he said. "But they will not all be armed tomorrow. It takes a couple of days" to replace Guards who have not completed firearms training.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 12:34:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rodent: I've talked to guardsmen at several major airports. Most have empty mag pouches and an empty mag inserted in their M16's. One female MP had an empty Beretta but told me there were rounds in the mags in her pouch. In other words, they're carrying expensive sticks and rocks.
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Yeow! I feel safer if the deputy Barney Fife from the Andy Griffith Show was guarding the airports, at least you know he has at least one round in his shirt pocket.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 12:47:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2001 1:49:55 PM EDT by toaster]
What is the point of carrying without ammo? I dont get it. Some show of potential force? "Stop what you are doing!! Or I will beat you with this bushmaster baseball bat!!" Rediculous I say. Reminds me of an old Robin Williams skit in which someone commits a crime and a British bobby, carying only a whistle says "Stop!! Or I'll stay stop again!!" Give them some damn live rounds.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 1:33:19 PM EDT
The point is to make the morons in the public feel better and and for the useless politicians to act like they are doing something about airport security (an oxymoron itself). Its all eyewash. Until they get some people with brains scanning the bags and some method of scanning the checked bags the aircraft are still at risk.Putting bars on the cockpit doors is one of the few useful things they have done to increase security. The rest is to make people feel like something is being done.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 2:20:05 PM EDT
The last couple of times I transited through Philadelphia International Airport, there were temas made of of 1 each NG / PA State Police. I guess the troopers are there to lay down covering firing while the NG folks go look for ammo.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 2:38:47 PM EDT
Can only speak for the guardsmen in Colorado, but they, in fact, do have their shit together. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I spoke to them about this subject, because I know how my active army unit would have done it: M-16 slung, no mag, no ammo, one guy in three has a stick (yes, a stick, literally). Same SOP as mentioned above about calling in the attack and starting a chain of events that would lead to ammo arrival within, well, ...eventual ammo arrival.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 2:54:34 PM EDT
Empty chamber, loaded magazine here.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 5:25:37 PM EDT
But ammo or not, WTF are they there to prevent? A Taliban assault on an airport concourse? A 98 year old lady trying to slip through with a nail file in her purse? The brain dead folks they have scanning bags are perfectly capable of the later. I don't think the former is much of a threat. Its all eyewash so who cares whether they are carrying loaded weapons or not? Other than the fact that they must feel pretty foolish walking around without any ammo.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 7:04:11 PM EDT
At our local airport the Air Natl Guard people have M9's laoded , round in chamber full mags ......
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 7:42:30 PM EDT
I stopped by my local airport just to check how the rifle was being carried. From what I could see there was a 20 rounder in the M16. I have doubts whether or not there are rounds in the mag or one chambered. I've seen photos in the newspaper of rifles without mags and my personal conclusion is that most if not all Guardsmen are not loaded. These days the authorities are more concerned of a rifle being snatched and fired into a crowd. They figure the Guardsmen are trained to make their weapons ready if necessary, so why expose the public to this danger. Besides, look at the military, a uniformed guard is not in condition one and the soldiers don't get issued ammo except in battle conditions or live fire training.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:49:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fingers: But ammo or not, WTF are they there to prevent? A Taliban assault on an airport concourse? ...Its all eyewash so who cares whether they are carrying loaded weapons or not? Other than the fact that they must feel pretty foolish walking around without any ammo.
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Bingo! Before Sept. 11th: * Government - responsible for general protection of country - told airport security specifically how to do their jobs and exactly what and what would not be allowed through security * Airport Security - subject to government (see above) regulations to follow very specific instructions On Sept. 11th * Government - America attacked, government was unable to stop it * Airport Security - by latest accounts, airport security did not let anything through that it was not supposed to let through...[b]they did their job[/b] After Sept. 11 * Government - decides it needs to take over Airport Security and do it itself. So we have "Party A" that is generally responsible for safety, and was unable to stop it. "Party B" did their job. So now we decide to fire "Party B" and hire "Party A" to do their job. As far as I can see, airport "security" has not changed a whole lot. Previously it was a "big show" and now it's a bigger show.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:53:13 PM EDT
It don’t mater what is in the gun or mag at the front door, it is all for show anyway. At the back door; In Houston access to the runway (food services and cleaning crews…no pre-employment security check on almost all these people) not only was bad before 9/11, but has gotten worse, it is now easer to get to a airplane. Vehicles are ‘sealed’ ‘somewhere’ by ‘someone’ and the guards are not allowed to open or inspect these vehicles. Searching of cars for the ‘day parking’, was good for 3 days after 9/11. Then orders came down that a car search is NOT to take more than 45 seconds and they were NOT to open the hoods. I hope this is not how it works at all airports. As long as the sheepel see guns they feel safe. Source for this info is still working there, so no name will be given here. SSD [:(!]
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:08:03 PM EDT
Robbie is right on the mark...and this is all the beginning of the peoples acceptance of the military working inside the u.s.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 10:02:16 PM EDT
The soldiers are there only as window dressing. The authoriites can not search every car, passenger, vendor etc they just got too many of them to do it in a reasonable amount of time. The Isreali govt can do it because the country is so much smaller than the U.S. You have to ask yourself how many people go thru Ben Gurion Airport, and then multiply that by a factor of 100 for the U.S.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 10:31:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dc306: Can only speak for the guardsmen in Colorado, but they, in fact, do have their shit together. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I spoke to them about this subject, because I know how my active army unit would have done it: M-16 slung, no mag, no ammo, one guy in three has a stick (yes, a stick, literally). Same SOP as mentioned above about calling in the attack and starting a chain of events that would lead to ammo arrival within, well, ...eventual ammo arrival.
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Anyone else remember Hurricane Andrew? Word got around to all the street thugs quick that the guys in the red hats (82d ABN) had no ammo. The other guys with the Camo hats (FL NG) HAD ammo. Active duty leg units simply received carryover benefit from the fact that the FL Governor wasn't an idiot. Needless to say, the 82d guys lost a few weapons to the streets when actual LOADED weapons were pulled on them! Adam
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 10:44:48 PM EDT
My story is the same as Aviator's , except for two details . I was stationed at Wiesbaden Airfield at the same time and secondly lets just say there was a sudden run on .223 ammo at the local Rod and Gun club ... I'll leave the rest to your collective imagination [;)}
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 11:02:27 PM EDT
5subslr5 your info on the bombing in Saudi is 100% wrong if you are referring to the June 25 1996 bombing. USAF SOP for a combat load is as follows M9 30 rounds 9mm 1 mag in the weapon 1 round in the chamber safety carried off. M16 210 rounds 4to1 ball/tracer 1 magazine carried in the weapon (on post) no round in the chamber weapon on safe. The OP on top of the building did have ammo in the magazines in their M16's but were not allowed to fire. Speaking from personal experience at Daharan at the time the amount of times the perimeter was probed (park a truck and leave) then come back and get it 20 minuets later if we were to shoot everyone who parked next to the fence we would have killed 75 people without truck bombs. the fuse on the bomb was 2mins long and if the bomb dog handler would have gotten there in the amount of time to check the truck you could add another to the body count. john
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 8:06:11 AM EDT
Let's think about this for a second. The NG is not properly trained for law enforcement. They really lack any specialized anti-terror skills. The airports are an unlikely place for a full scale terrorist assault with military firearms. (This could be done anywhere) What does this mean? They are window dressing, just a few more eyes peeled for problems. Their primary purpose is to make people FEEL safe. Now, if there were an accidental discharge of a firearm or a wrongful shooting, then people wouldn't feel safe. I therefore suspect that their rule of engagement are quite restrictive. I also suspect that they are ordered to carry their weapons in a manner that minimizes accidental discharge. This at the very minimum probably means no loaded chambers.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 8:33:51 AM EDT
For once I think I can say that USAREUR has its sh#t together...from day one - Threatcon Delta in the wake of Sept. 11th - all guards have had live rounds ready to rock and roll. At one duty station there were several incidents with accidental discharges. Hopefully, there will be no more as they now have specific guard training. A friend of mine did lock and load on a suspicious acting Turkish guy overseas until the guy's ID checked out. I know the games that many commanders play with not giving out live ammo. out - but my company commander has never played this "Cover your #ss" game where leaders are more concerned about an accidental discharge then overall protection of the unit. Hopefully, all units will realize that guards without rounds are useless - and the only one that gets screwed because of it is the average GI.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 12:47:32 PM EDT
I have been traveling alot lately. I had a long layover at one airport and got to watch a guard change. One of the guys started to walk off, and one of the new guys calls him back. I could not hear the entire conversation, but the guy that tried to walk off said "Oh, I forgot". He gets 2 mags from a pouch and hands them to the new guy. The new guy checked to see that they were full and puts them in his pouch. From the exchange, it seemed clear to me that they had some ammo, but it was not in their weapons. If something went bad, they would have to take the empty mag out, and put in a full mag from the pouch. Only one of the two guys was carrying it. Having the Guard at the airports is just to make the public feel good. As a side note, I also saw Martina Navratilova getting off of a plane there.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 12:52:24 PM EDT
Do you guys think it's a safe practice for NG troops to have a round in the chamber under these conditions? Keep in mind we're talking about highly populated urban settings with hundreds of people "down range".
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 2:32:09 PM EDT
I am curious those of you that have or still do serve in the National Guard, would you get in a shitload of trouble if you concealed a mag from your personal collection or had a pistol concealed while on Active duty? I am curious because this really bothers me as I am enlisting in the guard (just need to complete my physical in 2 weeks) and might take the active duty for guard patrol here in NY. I havent really inquired with my recruiter whether or not they are carrying live rounds or not and he might not even know or be able to tell me. I am just curious though because I wouldnt want to risk a dis-honarable discharge but would do it if I had to scrub toilets with a toothbrush for a week or so lol just in case I needed to engage. Would really suck having blanks or empty magazines. I wouldnt mind not having one chambered I keep all my guns loaded but not chambered. Just curious.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 5:44:18 PM EDT
I don't know about you guys, but I have not seen any guradsmen with BFA's, so I don't believe anyone is carrying blanks. I really doubt that the ones I've seen here in CA are carrying ammo, or competent enough to use it even if they were. They all seem to be more impressed with themselves than the people who they are there to supposedly protect. No offense to any CA Air Gurad folks here, but those guys need to go on a diet, and learn to at least wear their uniform correctly. Also, carrying their weapon like they have a clue would go a long way to show that they at least look like they know whats up. These observations come from the Air guard folks at Oakland and LAX airports.
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