I could make it f*cking rain in my condo.  I'm putting up new shades at lunch and, BY NEGLECT, have the TV on MSNBC.  They have former Pres. Bush speaking in New Orleans (awesome) and then some info-babe commie-commentator announces a "special guest".  I forget the name, but it was a Japanese internment camp "survivor".  That got me kinda pissed, however, when she started crying about the shitty food at the camp and the fact that, when you "research it", the Japanese really did not execute a sneak attact, it was "planned all along by President Roosevelt", I lost it.  Holy f*cking SHIT!  First of all, having this bitch on this day is an insult to begin with.  Second, the fecal spew that came out of her mouch still has my ears ringing from disgust.  The info babe was lobbing bleeding heart liberal soft balls at her like, "does the present detention of muslim Americans cause you any concern . . ."

Maybe those f*ckheads could pick up a copy of Ghost Soldiers (Hampton Sides) or Flags of Our Fathers (this book is great, I quoted a passage from it at my father's funeral) and get their priorities and history straight.

I'm so glad we just got Fox.  

IDIOTS!

Sorry to here about your day Steve, but there is a lot of evidence that Rosevelt at least KNEW the attack was coming, and that he may have help set it up. He also provoked the Japanese into attacking us too. Its sad really. Here is a good link on it:

[url]http://thenewamerican.com/focus/pearl_harbor/index.htm[/url]

Read some of those stories. Its scary.

FDR according to most reliable evidence did have knowledge of the attacks and could have prevented them, however he viewed this as an opportunity to sieze more power from the american people and make himself look like a savior in the wake of the waning depression he had been unable to conquer without a war.

I guess America could never, ever possibly do anything good & right.  Everything's a conspiracy, our government is the bad guy in every possible event, the people who attacked us  are really the good guys.  Every American's death was the government's fault.  

Right Lib?  Maybe the info babe could interview you next.

[/sarcasm]

You ass.

You know what pisses me off?  This is sort of related....

It seems every single holiday, the newspaper has just GOT to put a diversity spin on it.  Ok, fine, but one holiday where it's totally 100% out of place is Independence Day.  America's holiday, where America is celebrated.  

I don't know when it started, but the 4th of July parade all of a sudden started having all these immigrant groups celebrating their cultures, their home countries, their flags.  Filipinos with Filipino flags, Mexicans and their flags, Pueto Ricans, etc.  

What the hell does this have to do with 4th of July?  You people live in America now, and you ostensibly want to be Americans.  If your countries were so terrific, why did you come here?  Why don't you wave your old flags on YOUR country's national holidays, and wave AMERICAN flags on the 4th?  It just annoys the hell out of me.

And you see the same thing here on MSNBC.  This day is all about the sneak attack by dirty Japs who thought they could cow us with violence, and how they ended up paying for it big-time, and the media puts a PC spin on it that celebrates the culture of victimhood of minorities by the bad bad white people, and making it clear that (of course) AMERICA IS TO BE BLAMED FOR PEARL HARBOR, NOT JAPAN!!  

I have no sympathy towards the Japanese who were fighting us in WW II - but they too were soldiers fighting for their own belief in country or whatever. The enemy may be wrong as hell however there is always the perspective that somewhere they too may have children or parents. I feel Pearl Harbor like September 11th was indeed a real tragedy for the nation - and both may have been preventable. Roosevelt had prior knowledge on Pearl Harbor - like most politicians he played stupid on current military intelligence. Just another dirty little secret in America's warped political process of coverup. Who knows what scandals will emerge 100 years from now on the Klinton years or even "the lesser of two evils" Bush Sr. or Bush Jr.

As usual, whenever this sh## happens the little guy pays - American families, soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, law enforcement, and emergency rescue,etc whose motives are more pure then our national leadership.  

On detention of Muslims in interim camps, concentration camps, etc, etc - they should still only be locked up if their is probable cause. Being Muslim or dark-skinned isn't probably cause - and I am NO fan of Islam. Just a basic human right as we are a free country - not like the third world s### people like myself get deployed too.

This is not intended as flame or argument on my part. I am very patriotic but am leery at the line between freedom and tryanny that is too often crossed.

________________________________________________
"Those who would sacrifice a little liberty for temporary security deserve neither" - Thomas Jefferson

Lib, I've read a lot on that "theory" and have never bought it.  I chalk it up to the staged moon landing theories.  Even if it were true, that he knew of it, she was on TV, TODAY, saying he "planned it".  It's pathetic.

Oh yea, in all those "reports" and discussions on the "theory", the only hard fact which no one disputes is that FDR truly loved the Navy.  Gotta go to a pretty dark place to concieve he was cabable of what the "theorists" proffer.

the bastards had the enigma and did't want to compromise its secrecy. So, we got f'ed

You know what pisses me off?  Historically illiterate conspiratorialists who buy into every whacked out conspiracy theory around as long as it makes the US look bad.  EVERYONE back then knew the Japanese were hostile to us and looking for trouble.  NO ONE believed they would attack Pearl Harbor because they believed the harbor was too shallow for an effective attack.
Yes, FDR wanted the US in the war...and rightly so.  We should have involved ourselves in the war earlier than we did.  But no, he didn't invite any attack on Pearl Harbor.  

Never have been able to figure out why we let all of these assholes into our country.

As for the conspiracy thing, it seems as though getting most of our ships out of harms way would have still been effective in getting us into WWII. Even if only 3 light cruisers had been hit do you think we would not have retaliated? Say we had all of our birds in the air and completely repelled their attack. Do you suppose that we would have just called it quits there? I doubt it. Even if FDR had a plan to draw us into the war do you really believe that he would have sacrificed almost our entire Pacific Fleet to do so. The outcome could have easily been different with our fleet in ruins. Consider the potential outcomes if we had lost at Midway. Further, there can be little doubt that we would have been drawn into the war at some point, anyway. If not for the ongoing socialist and pacifist movements that resulted from giving women the vote and the depression we would have gotten involved even earlier, regardless of Pearl Harbor.

I agree, with the Christmas season upon us, we will be regaled at length by serious theologians that will assure us that the Christmas story is sweet and pleasant and that, like candy, a little of it is nice for the children.

But adults shouldn't indulge themselves. They will say that Jesus was a good man, who had some rather good ideas that were taken to extremes by His biographers, who we all know, were as messed up as the Taliban!

It never seems that they can ever find any theologians who weren't trained in Ivy League Schools where Jesus is routinely crucified even unto this day.

It's like having a documentary of World War II written, directed, and produced by 4-Fs and conscientious objectors!

If you don't believe in Jesus, then just shut the hell up for the duration! And don't let ME catch you with a Christmas tree or some such nonsense as that! Be consistent, at least, in your errors!

If you don't believe that America's rightful place in World War II was standing next to Great Britain, I don't want to hear from you today, either!

Eric The(MerryChristmas,Ya'Bastids!)Hun[>]:)]

I guess we all need to face the facts. We Americans are just the scum of the Earth. Untill they want our Money! Right?  Of course you all know we are gonna be sending BILLIONS of dollars to rebuild Afghanistan when this is over don't you. We have to pay for our sins I guess.

lets see, correct me if i'm wrong. some of you think that fdr was a commie who forced the nice harmless pacifistic imperial japanese to attack us against their will?

the japanese had been rampaging through china for at least 5 years before pearl. do you really think fdr had to provoke an attack?

fdr cut off oil and steel exports to japan. if someone was running around attacking their neighbors, and was turning up your street, would you continue to provide them with gas and guns? and is that an invitation to attack you?

ok, he (or the war dept) may have seen some unclear intel among the clutter hinting that the japanese were planning to attack somewhere, soon. he may have even suggested the most valuable assets (carriers) be out at sea. that's not proof that he conspired with the axis.

you guys are so desperate to show fdr in a bad light that you'll accuse him of anything, truth be damned. revisionism at it's finest. maybe you should work for the media. or the govt. i hear they're hiring.

You really cant compare the Pearl Harbor attack and the 9/11.  Pearl Harbor was a righteous military target.  The WTC were civilian buildings.  There is no moral comparison.  

Lib, I must have skipped over this one.  Wow, that's an incredably insane statement.  WE provoked the Japanese?  Let me guess, by cutting off their oil supplies and other natural resouces that they needed to subjugate, torture and murder innocents all throughout Asia?  Someone should have done more and sooner.  Do you know what they were doing within the twenty year period leading up to the embargo?  Do you know how many died in Korea, China and thougout the South Pacific prior to this?  

Read "War in the Pacific" by Gen. (Ret.- USMC) Hagen.  It will broaden your perspective a little.

Saying we provoked the Japanese into attacking us is like saying a kidnapper is provoked into killing his captive when you don't pay him a ransom.  The responsibility lay with Japan and no one else.

Maybe "liberty" just wishes he had been a Japanese soldier so he could have gang raped Korean women, too.

the tree is a northern european pagan thing hijacked by the Church, just like the easter bunny. have a tree if you like. you too, eric!
[;D]

In the book "Pearl Harbor, the mother of all Conspiracys", by Mark Willey, I was most amazed by the fact that a special envoy was sent from Washington to a California airfield to coordinate the exact take-off time of the Flight of B-17s heading (unloaded of weapons and ammo, against local military officers requests) to Hawaii. they were held on the runway until given the all clear, by this Washington lacky. Does anyone but me find this peculiar?

The book intimates the reason for this was so they would arrive at the proper time, intriguing coincidence that the "proper time" turned out to be the same time as the attack?

Mike

Lib, the Japanese had been on a path of militaristic expansion for decades already:
They fought and defeated Czarist Russia in 1905, gaining Sakhalin Island.
They captured Korea and the island of Formosa (now Taiwan), around 1910, I think.
They invaded mainland China in 1936-37, a particularly horrible and brutal occupation which the Chinese have still not forgotten.
They declared war on the British, and had invaded Malaya, Singapore, Burma and India.
All of this before Pearl Harbor.  To say that we provoked them into attacking us is a bad joke.

As far as knowing in advance that they intended to attack us, we had some clues, and perhaps we did not pay as much attention to them as we should have. That is as far as one can reasonably go.

Do you suppose that when CBS/ABC/NBC/CNN/MSNBC/CSPAN have their annual "Blame-America-Fest" on August 6th, to commemmorate the American atrocity at Hiroshima, that they also interview some Bataan Death March Survivors or American POW/medical guinea pigs held in Japanese POW camps during the war?

I simply cannot understand why certain people have implicet trust in government to unconditionally do the right thing and not be corrupt....I've seen this attitude..as dangerous as it may be before...A healthy distrust of government is good....especially when their is evidence to implicate that FDR knew of the attack.

Call me a conspiracy nut if you like, I know I am not the only one here on the federal payroll that respects government but is not naive or blind.

OK '76 let me see if I got this straight.
#1. Americans killed by sneak attack @ Pearl Harbor were actually killed by an evil US government.
#2. Thousands killed by suicidal,murderous religous fanatics on Sept. 11 were actually killed by evil US government.
#3. CIA operative killed by above killers supporters while asking them "mean" questions had it coming because he was a member of an intelligence agency of evil US government.

The above is the tally from your recent posts. Hmmmm,let me add it up. Yup, you win!!
It was close, but by sheer volume of bizzare,paranoid,America hating posts, and the fact you actually posted your statement on a day when America is mourning the men who gave their lives,you passed invictus as moron of the year. Congrats!!

Or how about one of the millions of Japanese who were alive back then, and didn't get nuked, but would have been if we didn't help Hirohito "See The Light" (you know, that really bright light):

That was a good day for those Japanese back then, but the question is how many of them realize it today.

If there are any, I haven't heard from them yet.

Jay
Arizona

Maybe next time they should have one of the thousands of U.S. POWs that worked in Japan and occupied China during WWII. Yeah, they were lucky if they even GOT food.

Another book you all should read: "Unjust Enrichment" by Linda Holmes. Basically describes how POW labor fed the Japanese war machine and led to their industrial survival and ascent after the war. Japanese internment camps in the U.S. were f*cking Club Med compared to the sh*t these guys went through.

Enigma was the German encryption machine, not the Japanese.  If you are going to spout off asinine conspiracy theories, at least try to get [b]some[/b] of your facts straight.

The main problem with coordinating the intelligence gathered through the cracking of the Japanese codes wasn't the dearth of information, but rather the overabundance of it.  We had intercepts of communications to Japan from its agents all over the world; from Panama, the Phillipines, South America, the Soviet Union and many other countries.  We didn't see a distinct pattern of intelligence gathering concerning Pearl Harbor because there was no pattern to see.  It was simply a part of the vast amount of intelligence gathered by Japanese agents.

It's really quite similar to a tactic employed by corporate attorneys involved in complex lawsuits.  Let's say that you are a lawyer for an automobile manufacturer and your company is being sued for an alleged defect in your brake system.  You are given a subpoena compelling you to turn over any memorandea showing that your company knew of the defect.  Instead of turning over the specific documents they demand, you give them copies of [b]every[/b] scrap of paper regarding the development of that particular automobile.  You have technically complied with the order,  but the other side is swamped with so much information that it is nearly impossible to locate the specific information that they need.

I'm not saying that the government was blameless concerning the attack of Pearl Harbor.  Many supposedly learned people had come to the conclusion that Japan would not pre-emptively attack the U.S.  One such group, the Institute of Pacific Relations, held a symposium in Cleveland on December 7, 1941, and reached the conclusion that Japan would make no move towards the U.S. for at least a year.  The Institute was about to announce their findings when they were informed of the attack.

Call it misinformation, bad luck or even incomptetence if you like.  But to say that so many members at all levels of our government were willing to let thousands of Americans die (not to mention leave our Pacific naval forces crippled) just to pick a fight with the Japanese is simply idiotic.

whoo there hoss.....hoople..are you really the
little programmed robot that your posts make you out to be. This is America, dangit, we fight on thanksgiving and if the day that someone died for our way of life isn't the correct day to reflect on the causes and concerns about that day, then when is? There are many so-called conspiracy theories that in the last 10-years that have been proven true---in federal court and in released documents---Operation Northwood involving Cuba and the CIA and drug-dealing are two that come to mind. And let's just put the BATF and Operation Showtime in to show how far the gov't will go to get a 200.00 dollar tax.
Saving Private Ryan was seen as a nice tribute by some people who were there and quite a few of them had to inform the youngin's why they were on a beach that was packed with enemies. It doesn't take away to explain that things were screwed and badly planned and in some cases, just plain stupid. This country was founded for the people and by the people and it is our responsibility and right to question and make sure that things are being run correctly.
We do not, however much GWB the first thinks we do, have royalty whose orders and mandates we must follow. We are the government and we should be involved in praising it and watchdogging it.

not saying if what james perloff wrote is true or not, but using the above as a means of saying that it is not; is not academic. what if it is true?

is everything a government consipiracy? NO! but that does not mean something is false just because you disagree with it.

in other words; saying that someone is paranoid without using any facts or evidence sounds just as paranoid and baseless.


lib



"the problem is trying to convince crazy people that im not crazy"

Um...NO.  Enigma was the GERMAN code machine.  

I really don't buy the whole "conspiracy" to provoke Japan to attack the U.S. The Military/FDR had an idea that Japan was moving some of there ships, but they weren't sure where, or for what. America was itching to get into the war since it started: especcially with Japan; who had been murdering and raping innocents in China for years. Anyone remember the "Rape of Nanking?" more innocent Chinese were killed in one month in the city of Nanking than all of the civilians killed in France or Great Britain during the entire war. The Japaneese were truly brutal during the war.

Very true. Japanese encryption was code named "Purple". Not nearly as sophisticated as German encryption.

Hell no! Good way to debate by the way. Disagree with somebody and accuse them of wanting to gang rape women[rolleyes]



No, the US government didn't kill them. They were complacent at least, allowing it to happen, or they set it up to get us involved in WWII.

No, the US government didn't kill them. The US government's foreign policy helped stir up anger toward the US, and that led to them decided to murder our innocent civilians.

No, from what I heard, the NA was tying the soldiers up, beating them and killing them. It was even reported that one of them executed three of them. Then they provoked them into rioting. That is what I said I heard. If you read that thread, you will see I don't believe it.



I don't hate American the Country and Ideals, I hate the Government, who not only was complecit in the deaths of many Americans and innocent civilians, but also deliberately killed many others as well.

Oh, I see your point: How dare I question the prevailing belief that the government is always out for our best interests, and never means us any harm. And how dare I question the belief that our soldiers gave their lives for our liberty, instead of for the governments interest(notwithstanding the soldiers beliefs of what they were doing)

Here is a good article. "The Facts behind the Fiction"

[url]http://thenewamerican.com/tna/2001/06-04-2001/vo17no12_facts.htm[/url]

                                            As the old saying goes.....It`s lonely at the top......somehow, we manage to stay there.....GOD bless the U.S.A.

It was a suprize attack , but FDR did have knowledge of its coming and did take a role in provking the Japs into attacking us to enter the USA into WW2.  Read " Day of Deceit" not a pinko , commie book , just well researched and footnoted history. This does not change the fact that after we were attack we had no choice but to destroy our attackers just as today we MUST respond with overwelming force and destory those that have again attacked us. " If you spit in my eye , expect to get punched"

Yeah, I agree with that. Regardless of the situation, the Japs still needed to pay for what they had done. It would have been better to go after both the foreign enemies(Japan) and the Domestic enemies(FDR).

The same goes for those who helped out with the Sept 11 Attacks.

...and it wasn't cracked by the Allies until well after 12/7/41. Brits captured the first one from a U-Boat (yes, it was the Brits, not us as portrayed in U-571) but if memory serves me right, we figured it out to some extent before that.

Steve, did you see this today?

[url]www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-120701codes.story[/url]

It's about the Japanes breaking our codes before the war and knowing a little more than we thought.

One thing I've learned about the U.S. Government... Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, incompetence or negligence...

You forgetting the fact that the people interned were AMERICAN citizens, not prisoners of war?  I don't recall any Germans or Italians in these camps.  IF IT AIN'T WHITE, IT AIN'T ALRIGHT huh?

Glad to have you aboard my fellow American!  Having no G.E.D. is a b!tch ain't it?

We should NEVER forget what happened @ Pearl Harbor.  But we should not bother with semantics right now and focus more on the current enemy.

The first "Enigma" machine was first captured in Poland...... while being transported there!

You guys watch too many movies! [:P]

DaMan

Oh please...spare me this bullshit. You sound like the pinkos I went to undergrad with. Nobody is saying that internment camps here were ok, but rather that there were MUCH worse things that happened.

Many of the POWs used as SLAVE LABOR by the Japanese were non-combatant American civilians that were in the wrong place at the wrong time when Japan started it's rampage.

Here's what this robot believes:
There was government agency stupidity (and criminal action) at both Waco and Ruby Ridge.
Military misjudgement at Normandy, gee that would be rare in war.
CIA involvment in some pretty dumb ideas-definitely.
Daily government wrongdoing, well with the size of our bloated government it's inevitable.
What pisses me off is not people questioning the US government, but continually (daily) posting links to BS stories with absolutely no proof of truth in them. Do you think just because you provide a link to a story it must be true? Do you see the sources of these stories.It's the same 3 or 4 idiots saying the same thing over and over, fact be damned and I'm fed up with it. Don't like that I confront them? I really feel bad. You agree with them? I feel even worse for you.
You guys can spout your conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbor for 363 days a year. How about for this 1 day you just shut up and say a prayer thanking them for giving so much.

Who cares if they had prior knowledge.  Bottom line:

In 1942 we had the 18th largest military.

Today, we're number one and we will kick their ass again if they keep it up.

American CIVILIANS taken used as Japanese slave labor.  Where were these folks captured?  Army bases?  Sorry but this is news to me.  Guess I need to brush up on my facts too...

Posted by lurker -

If you're celebrating Saturnalia then by all means decorate your villa with fir boughs, as the Romans did.

If you're Norse or German (as I am), go ahead and celebrate the Winter Solstice.

Or druid. Whatever.

But if you're [b]just[/b] putting up a Christmas Tree and [b]just[/b] calling it a Christmas Tree, then kindly understand the irony!

Eric The(SoWhichIsIt?)Hun[>]:)]

General Jerome Hagen gives several examples in his book.  One example early in the war is that of Wake Island.  There were 200 or so contract laborers on Wake (civilian) who were captured by the Japanese when they took the island.  Most were murdered on the beach (days after the battle) and some were transported to Japan where, those who were not chopped up in front of zealous crowds for display, were forced into slave labor.  There were civilians enslaved in the Philippines as well . . . what was that you were saying about a G.E.D.?  Think (or at least read) before you speak.

Interesting discussion...my wife & I were just commenting that there is more media coverage on the Dec 7th attack this year than before...I guess the Sept 11th tragedy did cause the US to take notice.  We are vulnerable...the oceans do not protect us anymore.

Reference the Pearl Harbor attack....I suggest an excellant book "Day of Deceit" by Robert Stinnett.  He clearly spells out the US and Japanese intelligence operations prior to the attack and both strategic and tactical items connected to the attack.  

And, the US did not want involvement in a foreign war....too many families remembered sons lost in WWI.  Certain parts of our govt had tried to secure our involvement. The "Neutrality Patrols" in the N. Atlantic caused both the USN and US merchant marine to lose ships to the U-boats long before Dec. 7th.  These incidents did not provoke the US into the European war.    

We now know that the USN developed a plan, that FDR read...that contained the 8 key steps to provoke Japan into war with the US.
In the late 30s and 1940, FDR implemented all 8 of these steps....and the Japanese govt had no choice but to take action.

And remember...the Japanese only wanted to take out the US Pacific fleet to buy time for their conquest of the oil and resource areas in Malaysia and Dutch East Indies....after they secured these areas they intended to sue for peace with the US.  

The Dec 7th attack changed that...it galvanized the US public and filled them with a terrible resolve.  It did cause the US to enter both the Pacific and European conflicts.

As several of the above replies stated....there were many factors involved...volumes of intel...many agencies involved....USN...USA...FBI...etc.  

But evidence now shows on the strategic level the US govt did know of the attack....and tactical details are now coming forward.

The Japanese fleet proceeding eastward across the Pacific...did not maintain radio silence...this is a myth...several maritime and shore stations tracked them via their radio transmissions.  

US shore and vessel radio stations tracked the Japanese merchant tanker fleet, the key elements to suppling fuel to the carriers.

Dutch and British agents intercepted key radio traffic and even warned US personnel of the impending attack.

Now if you want to really get a discussion going, just mention to a Pearl Harbor attack vet thet the US govt knew of the attack beforehand.  It does not sit well with them, that the US govt may have used them as pawns, to provoke a war in the Pacific.

History is wonderful....just think what would have occurred if they had caught the Pacific carrier fleet in harbor?  No Midway...

And after the attack, the US then authorized unrestricted submarine warfare against the Japanese merchant marine...this alone made a key difference.

Also suggest several of Gordan W. Prange's books...."At Dawn We Slept."

And reference the treatment of US and allied POWs by the Japanese.....just read your history.  It was horrible...and they treated the Koreans and Chinese worse.  

I was fortunate to spend several weeks this past spring on Oahu...one week on vacation and one on business.  While at Hickam AFB...you can clearly see the bullet and shrapnel holes in the base HQ bldg.

With the family toured Pearl Harbor, USS Missouri, USS Arizona, USS Bowfin, Wheeler Field, Schoefield barracks, and several other installations .

I do wish the media would highlight the other aspects of the attack on Oahu....the Naval Air Station, Wheeler Field, etc.  

I will never forget my 14 year old son's perspective while on the Arizona Memorial...after some time I looked around for him...he was leaning over the rail, looking down at the ship's hull....and tears were streaming down his face.  

I asked him if he was okay...he replied "Dad, this is so real and terrible."  I told his...yes...this is not a video game....it is real and we must never forget.