After yesterday I have realized that SWAT teams are nothing more than the bully in grade school. When they are breaking down doors at 4 a.m. and attacking sleeping people they strut around like the baddest of the bad. I personally enjoy watching police shows, and am always BLOWN AWAY by the weapons those bastards have! I've seen Steyr Aug's, HK MP5K's, G36K's, etc. Those guys have the finest weapons, tons of training, and the public sees them as superheroes.

I see them as pxxxxx axx bxxxxxx.

Whenever they do something right, they can't stop talking about themselves. Whenever they break down the door of a drug dealers house (when they get the address right) and drag the confused and sleepy man into the street you see them parading around like peacocks giving each other high-fives. But whenever they are actually faced with danger. When they find themselves in a situation where they know someone is armed, and where they know they have to face a criminal who is awake and ready they are the biggest pu55ie5 ever!

I can understand their fear. They are asked to go into a hot situation. We ask them to go into a building they've never seen before and we ask them to engage an unknown and hostile foe. I can understand their desire to be home with their families, their fear of the unknown. But to wait outside the factory yesterday in Idaho while victims are bleeding to death so they can chat on the phone with an employee FOR HOURS is UNACCEPTABLE!!

I watched a spokesperson of the department describe their actions, and he admitted that they spent an hour or two (After they got to the scene) deciding the best route into the building. Let's pretend they [i]only[/i] spent one hour outside. Think about how fricking long an hour is! In one hour I can watch an entire episode of Junkyard wars from start to end. In one hour I can sit through a class at college (that seems like for fricking ever). One hour can make the difference between life and death.

Do you remember William Sanders? [img]http://www.chsmemories.org/images/williamsanders.jpg[/img]

He was the school teacher at Columbine High School who bled to death as the SWAT team sat around for HOURS. The police set up a perimeter and talked to the frightened and dying people inside the high school for hours and hours AFTER the shooting had stopped. AFTER Harris and Klebold had taken their own lives. William Sanders lay in a pool of his own blood for hours while the children hiding with him tried to get the attention of the police with signs in the windows pleading for help. After the SWAT team members somehow mustered the courage from their tiny tiny balls to go into the school to face the [b]awesomely[/b] armed and [b]highly[/b] trained shooters [i](two shotguns, a Mac 10 which jammed every few shots, and a Hi-point carbine which also jammed very often)[/i], they slowly crept through the building undoubtedly soiling themselves every few steps. (There were multiple unfired rounds littering the floor of the school along with the spent casings. This suggests that the guns that were used jammed very often and had to be cleared every few shots)

Anyways, although the SWAT teams told reporters that they were "outgunned" by the two shooters they mustered their courage and clutched their worthless little HKMP5's and AR-15's and VERY slowly walked through the building treating each student as a threat. All students were treated as a possible suspect, which is understandable. What is not understandable is how the SWAT team treated the students around Mr. William Sanders. The students caring for Mr. Sanders were rushed out of their hiding place, and although they begged the police men to allow them to pull Mr. Sanders to safety, they were refused. It was a matter of hours before they finally treated Mr. Sanders (unsuccessfully) for his wounds. Unfortunatelly he died from his wounds HOURS AND HOURS after Harris and Klebold had killed themselves.

In yesterday's shootings, the cops acted with equal ineptitude in what appears to be SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). While it makes sense to secure a perimeter around the site of the crime, it is insane to me at how long it takes these [i]men[/i] to go inside. I watched footage of 7 or 8 SWAT members walking in a line towards the building with their weapons out. They rode around in their [b]ARMORED CAR[/b] for a while trying to look inside, and figure out what to do. They talked on the phone to a hiding employee for hours, and finally just went inside to find that the shoter had been dead the whole damn time. The worst part of it all is that the police were informed that the man was going to be coming to kill the employees, but they refused to do anything about it. I guess they are just around to clean up the dead. (and to wait for the wounded to bleed to death)

While some of you may berate me for second guessing these professionals, i am really fed up with their antics. This is what they are trained to do! They were formed in a reaction to the shooting in Texas (I think it was Texas) where that guy in the bell tower was blasting people and the cops were underarmed. I see these police with better guns than much of our military uses, and I always hear about their extensive training and courage, but I swear they seem like the biggest cowards.

Perhaps they have to think about liabilities involved if they make mistakes, but i think it's a bigger mistake to take HOURS to enter a building. If that is SOP, then I believe it should be changed. If I was laying on the ground in that factory yesterday....... feeling the life slip from my body...... getting colder and colder..... watching the armored car drive by the windows....... watching the SWAT team cowering behind their police cruisers.....

Well whatever..... it hasn't changed since Columbine, and i'm thinking it won't change after yesterday. We can put the biggest guns in their hands, we can put them in armored vehicles, we can put our lives in their hands, but we can't put balls in their pants.

Shawn Vernon

Oy vey.

Methinks you're in for a raft of shit now, my friend.

Strip away some of the invective and you make some valid points.  Unfortunately, pointing these things out gets you nothing but grief.

Anyone remember the bad-ass SWAT guy pointing his MP5SD in Elian Gonzales' face?

QS

If SWAT teams get all the full-auto guns, flash bombs, body armor, and armored vehicles, they better train on how to use them and then actually use them.  The SWAT teams that don't make me sick.  They are LEO's with bad attitudes and big guns.

I recall a hostage situation on the east cost a couple years ago.  The SWAT team bought the suspect McDonalds and Pizza while the hostages got nothing. Even with all their firepower and armor they stood off at a long distance.  They only thing they shot were the pets at the surrounding homes.  After 3 days, the hostages had to free themselves because the gunman said he was going to kill.  What a bunch of POS cowards.

Then there was the incident in Florida I belive.  A SWAT raid on a drug dealer.  SWAT had lined both sides of the street with full auto guns.  The drug dealer got in his SUV and drove down the street.  About 10 SWAT officers, the ones that didn't crap their pants and drop their guns when the SUV started move, opened up with full auto into the vehicle.  The windshield and all the windows were shot out, they hit the suspect once in the arm.  These guys were no more than 20 feet away with full auto guns and only hit him once?  WTF?  Luckily they didn't shoot each other in the cross fire.  All those people on the SWAT team should be fired.  It was pathic.

Columbine was the same way.

Yesterday was the same way.  They said it took about 2 hours for officers to move in to check on the injured people.

If SWAT isn't going to do their f*cking jobs, then they should give up all their toys and get a desk job.

srv656s, You are right.
Why is it that SWAT teams are only bad asses at 3am when they are storming the wrong house and shooting innocent people in bed?  Or shooting children in the back?  Or raiding a gun store that had an FFL but not a city pawn license?  Why is it anytime they are needed for public saftey they cower like a bunch of pxxxxxx.  Maybe it's their superiors that won't let them go in, but it still makes them look like pxxxxxx.

AMEN!!!

I'm going to have to agree with most of what is said here. No knock searches and the Militarization of police is one of the problems I have with law enforcement.

Jeez..where were you guys when I was getting my ass roasted on the other thread?  [;)]

Look out! Here come the cops.

Yesterday the news had on someone from police department.  They said the officers were waiting outside until they could verify that the situation was safe for the officers to enter.

I thought SWAT was supposed to be the one's making the situation safe?  

I predict a post by sukube in the next half hour.  Something to the effect that we don't know both sides and there were good reasons for the cops to take an hour to actually do anything.  

But, remember, they followed their prime directive: they went home at the end of the day.

I think for the most part, you're right Shawn.  These hotshot SWAT teams bust down the wrong house and terrorize innocent civilians on such a regular basis it's not even newsworthy anymore.  

But I've got no complaints about our local SWAT team (or CIRT as they call themselves).  They popped a guy I went to high school with who was out of his mind after killing his family and holding his little brother hostage with a gun to the kid's head.  Sniper got him, kid was saved.  In another episode, they were called in to get a guy for making bombs in a junkyard.  The suspect had control-detonated mines set up in the yard and lobbed pipebombs at the CIRT guys when they made their assault.  The suspect never made it to court.

But yeah, a lot of cop-bashing here since yesterday huh?  

It's nice to sit behind a keyboard and be Billy Badass isn't it. That's one of the great things about the internet.

Yes it takes hours. So what that's life. You want it to go faster then change some of the civil liablity laws and that would allow us to just start blasting away. And I am not a SWAT officer and never wanted to be. Just a lowly patrol officer waiting to retire so I can don't have to deal with human slime anymore. Good luck to you.

You John Wayne Keyboard Commando Ninja Beerswilling Civilian Fat Guys don't know what you're talking about!  Our SOP says that we can't enter the AO until the BG is DOA and the SRT guys do an explosive MOE and insert FBGs to prevent the DOA BG from making an SRT KIA!  And, our ROEs say that with more than one BG in the AO, we can't assault until we get support from our APC!  Otherwise, the DA will say we didn't have RAS or PC!

SWAT teams are great, but some of the 'tards on less trained teams and their administration are f^^^ ups. It depends on the individual. We need SWAT, but we don't need them to be used as an abuse to our rights.

Seriously though, the whole columbine thing was never completely told. Officers were in the building long before the swat team got there. BTW, I would be a little edgy if i was entering a building that was booby trapped.

FYI, the texas bell tower incident was solved by a citizen with his rifle before officers made it to the top of the tower.

I have no illusions about my abilities or my training. I am a decent shot with my rifles and pistols, but i know i don't have any formal training in CQB or hostage situations or whatever. I know I am not armed properly or equipped properly to do their job. What I do know though is that i'd have a greater sense of urgency than they seem to when the situation demands it, and there were people relying on me to act.

If they are unable or unwilling to stop these people, then at least I should be given an opportunity to do so for myself. In Columbine, and in this factory I'm sure there wasn't one armed person besides the shooter. Although Indiana is a CCW state, i'm betting that it was against company policy for their employees to carry at work. We force ourselves to be victims and the people we rely on for our protection are worthless.

There are good stories along with the bad, and I respect officers of the law. I have never called them JBT's (Jack Booted Thugs), but I can't help but be frustrated with their inaction in such grave situations.

Shawn

[blue]Fe-fi-fo-fom, I smell an[/blue] [green]armchair warrior[/green]

If you disagree with my position, I am always interested to hear flaws in my argument (besides the fact that i accidentally said the shooting yesterday was in idaho instead of indiana), and am always interested in hearing the oppositions point of view. Calling me an armchair warrior is pretty lame......

Shawn

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=76068[/url]

Theres post here all the time about SWAT team shoots wrong guy, LEO's to ready to use deadly force, SWAT teams aren't the military, and so on. Not to mention the complaints that there shouldn't be SWAT teams, after all what could happen. But after an incident like this there are always posts about Why didn't SWAT move in like Delta Force on meth?

Not to mention the people who post regualrly that the police should have more restrictions on the use of deadly force than other citizens. And my favorite, the SUE'em because of what they did, or what they didn't do but should've posts.

srv656s,

You have mail.

Lets forget for just a second that there are many instances that SWAT does their job. And does it well. We just don't ever hear about the good times. We only hear, and in this case criminalize the LEOs that just laid their butts on the line.

This thread needs to be edited by the authors. And I'll wait to see if it gets done.

However, my patience for this kind of bashing is growing very thin.

Lew

Shawn, you foolish boy.........do you think that SWAT is there for you? You missed the whole point of the excercise........they are there for
when one of their brothers get shot.....If you want SWAT to do their job, you have to say
"Officer down"!!!

Why is it that whenever someone questions the actions of a police officer or SWAT the LEO's on this board respond back with major attitude making statements such as "How dare you question a police officer you POS scum of the earth"?  Instead of admitting that it just might be possible for a police officer or SWAT to make a mistake or fail to respond in an appropriate manner.

Those LEO who always respond in this manner, your authority doesn't extend to this board.  So you can take your attitude and smoke it.  You guys aren't perfect but you always act like you are.  If you would get off your high horse and actually admit that you make mistakes, then maybe we wouldn't be so hard on you.

As per board code, i removed my swear words. I  don't think it is against the rules of this board to state your opinion, so i did not edit out my criticism of the police procedures. I feel strongly on this and beleive that freedom of speech protects unpopular speech by nature. If this is unpopular, and it makes me unpopular, so be it. I think though that it needs to be said.

(I understand that this board does not necessarily give users FULL free speech since naked women and swear words is not good for business, but i don't believe that ideas are censored, and i hope that by removing the swear words this thread won't be deleted.)

Shawn

First, I am not a LEO. But I have chatted with  my brother in law about this type of situation. He is a cop and has had some tactical
training. The SWAT officers most times want to run in and save the day. But they are held back. The threat of lawsuits and bad press is what holds them back. Yes, if an officer is shot they may react more quickly. But they can get a break from the press if one of their brethren is down.
I too agree they waited too long at Columbine and in yesterdays incident. But they have to follow the "rules of engagement" set forth by their departments. It takes time to secure the perimeter, review floor plans, plan the assault and all the while not try to look like "jack booted thugs" in front of the press.
I don't have the answer....just my 2 cents.

Most of you people who are complaining have never been in this situation.  The SWAT officers are not the ones who get to decide to go in..it is the brass who decides.

I am truly offended at how you "wanna-be-bad-ass-macho-arm-chair-preachers" think they know everything!  I would gladly let you take my gear and go through a door...I don't think you can handle it!

I will admit that it is scary as hell...but you have to take that fear and use it to your advantage...remember: courage is not the absence of fear, but the resistance!

Oh..and the SWAT Officer who was doing his job on the Elian Gonzales entry...you know perfectly well that the guy holding the kid could have had a gun...you know..People do use kids as shields...grim fact but face it..the Officer did his job and did it right!

So know that I have pissed you off as you have me don't be

Pxxxxx Axx Bxxxxx

about it..take a reply like a man!

medcop

I looked this up.  It was actually 3 police officers and one civilian made their way up to the top of the tower.  They brought down two critically wounded victims who had been shot at the very beginning of the incident.  And then the four, without having a definitive plan, moved up to the top of the stairs, kicked down the door, and killed whitman.  All the while they were recieving friendly-fire from police and civilians on the ground. The total time from the first shot fired to Whitman being dead was 96 minutes.

I'm curious how this would have ended if it occured with SWAT teams available? How long would they have waited to go in? It does seem that a few brave volunteers working alone are in some cases more efficient than a structured group like SWAT.

Swire Asks: Why is it that whenever someone questions the actions of a police officer or SWAT the LEO's on this board respond back with major attitude making statements such as "How dare you question a police officer you POS scum of the earth"? Instead of admitting that it just might be possible for a police officer or SWAT to make a mistake or fail to respond in an appropriate manner.

Those LEO who always respond in this manner, your authority doesn't extend to this board. So you can take your attitude and smoke it. You guys aren't perfect but you always act like you are. If you would get off your high horse and actually admit that you make mistakes, then maybe we wouldn't be so hard on you.
**********
Its an easy answer.  In the world of Law Enforcement it is us versus everyone.  It is us versus the bad guys.  Its is us versus civil liabilities.  It is us versus lawyers.  It is us versus uninformed citizens.  No matter what happens, or how a situation goes down, its the cop's fault.  Civilians put restrictions on law enforcement, and then complain about why we cannot do whatever, whenever the civilians think it was needed

Let me be honest.  I started the job because I wanted (and still want) to help people.  But without the support of the people, its gets harder and harder.

The media never reports when we do a good job, only mistakes are reported. Civilians are always quick to point out our flaws.  I RARELY get an "atta boy" when I get something right. I will be the first to admit that cops make mistakes, but I can honestly say that for every 1 mistake I make, I did a hundred things right.

Anyway, That's why we almost always take up for one of our own.  I doubt I will take a pipe and smoke anything, but I may have a beer.
Kai

You didn't piss me off.  You replied the way I was hoping, with some answers.  The other LEO's don't bother to try to explain what happend they just whine about someone questioning them.

Did the other LEO's that reponded explain why it took so long to enter? No.  Did they explain that the officers were held back?  No.  All they did was show their major bad attitudes about how dare someone question them.  To them they can kiss my a$$ with their attitude because they are making the relationship between civilians and police worse.

medcop, thanks for explaining the situation.

I don't think it is about law suites and such.. ever see the video of the columbine incident... 2 hours after the bg are doa the swat team hides behind an armored car as they approach.... that is not fear of the legal system ....that is NO BALLS!

Good point. I obviously wrote my trirade while pissed, and agree that if it is the case that SWAT teams are restricted by bearacracies it is not their fault. I do believe that it is a big problem. I am most upset that I am unable to carry a weapon on my work property and am forced to rely on the molasses like bearacracy to save me should my workplace be robbed (A good possibility at my work - A bank).

Shawn

SWAT teams are the beginning fulfillment of the militarization of the police as required by State Department Bulletin 7277.  This calls for a national security foce to be brought into existence.  Removal of Posse Commitatus laws will be next.  I have met a few good SWAT guys, but in general they are worthless, guestapo like, power hungry wannabe's.  They are a true sign of the willingness of certain citizens to abandon our libertys in exchange for power over their fellow man.  SWAT teams can go to HELL!!!

Great point. I don't mean to make myself out to be a cop hater or anything, but when it comes to SWAT teams I get really annoyed. When you see SWAT specials on the Discovery channel or on COPS, the guys act so baddass and gungho as they break down doors late at night in their ninja suits. I guess i just got really pissed when it took so long to enter the factory yesterday.

I have a great deal of respect for police and always treat them with respect. I know their job is important and dangerous. In these situations though i feel that the SOP is bullshit.

Shawn

Honest answer? Yup!  Disturbing answer? Yup!

Just an observation. From what I hear the LEOs saying they are not allowed to go in until the bad guy is dead. So why do Swat teams exist? Wouldn't the money be better spent on crime scene clean up crews?

Someone above posted something about the LEO just saying "how dare they question us" Well, that is how some feel.  I on the other hand am only human...human's do make mistakes.  LEO make mistakes just like everyone else does in the job they do...it just so happens that LEO are looked at in a diff. way..people for the most part think they should not make mistakes, that everything throw at them, every situation, every armed gunman or what have you can be solved without a mistake occuring.  This is just not true..even the best trained SWAT Team or for that matter Delta Force makes mistakes...and yes, when this happens people do get killed..that is just the nature of the beast.

I would say that our brass stops us from "going in" 99 out of 100 times.  We stand back chomping at the bit...getting pissed because we can't do our job.  

You may see SWAT guys just sitting or standing around on a scene that they may have to go into....well, I can tell you if that I am sitting or standing around waiting to go into a building I am just trying to keep my cool...to relax...to think about what it is that I am getting ready to do.  It may appear they are doing nothing, but sometimes doing nothing is actaully getting them prepared to go in.


I think Paratrooper_Kai said it best "Let me be honest. I started the job because I wanted (and still want) to help people. But without the support of the people, its gets harder and harder."

medcop

Thanks to SRV656s for the edit.

I edited a few other posts, but, only for content.

Tread very lightly on this thread. I am unlocking it under the condition that you keep it squeaky clean.

As I said, I do not like to lock posts or individual accounts.

Lew

BTT

Well, crap, since this thread got locked, I started a new one. Then you go and unlock it. Make up my mind!

[(:)]

I hope someone was popping off about the tone of my posts.

Because these post always go like this

Q: Are all LEO's only good for 2 things? 1) good for nothing 2) no good? Which is it or is it both. Why do the overwieght donut munchers who can't shoot try to think they are John Wayne with their cool guy training. I watched Die Hard at least a dozen times I would know what to do, but those undereducated, not so bright to begin with nerds in uniform have no clue why is this?

A: Lighten up francis,

Q: How dare you talk to me like that why would you say something like that to me??

A question:
Is the report of the SWAT team's ineptness established fact, or is it a report from the same biased media who reported 35 people shot yesterday in error?
One minute the media has the shooter using "assault weapons", "shooting 35 people",
etc etc and you can see through the story by checking out the facts. Heck- read some of the ranting posts about that on this board.
I see no evidence that the "facts" were checked out here. If they were, please enlighten me. Or is this a case of media sensationalism?

Thanks to whomever has the facts and can post them.

[i]I read a great post over at AK.net that I thought summed up my feelings in a much more concise manner.[/i]

First of all it doesn't look like anyone has an ax to grind about ALL LEOs. No matter what you believe, if you had family member in a building with a shooter killing at will, you would be livid (that's MAD for those schooled in the liberial methods). Anything can be planned to death and reviewed until it becomes a non-issue.

The SWAT in Co did a great job of maintaining a safe perimeter around the school. Preventing anyone from taking action outside of their control. They were in charge. They did a great job of shaking down the students that escaped from the building. But they did NOT penetrate until after everything was over for a L O N G time. and THAT is the point of most of the posts.

The Shoe comic strip had a firefighter being asked how effective they were. The reply "We have never lost a foundation".

If SWAT is nothing more than a body count squad after the fact the public is once again paying millions for training and equipment and getting pennies of service.

SWAT teams should not go to hell. SWAT teams are not part of a national force, but exist at a local and state level. state department publication 7277 actually lays out a plan to reduce the size of our armed forces, not build them up. 7277 concerns itself with reducing war making capacity while empowering the UN. 7277 does not specifically state it empowers the UN if my memory serves me correctly, but who else could impose such if all other countries reduce their militaries and weapons of mass destruction.

i agree that posse comitatus is in danger of being ignored. this would lead to a police state. i have personally met no SWAT guys; so i cant say what their attitude is like, but i would'nt go so far as to label them as Guestapo like. the Gestapo could pretty much do whatever they wanted, SWAT cannot do what they whatever they want.


armchair commandoed lib [:)]

I rarely enter these debates, but I have one question.  Why is it [i]everytime[/i] someone questions the police or police policy, someone accuses the poster of being an armchair/internet commando?  I'm sorry, but I question everything and everyone employed by the government as they are an extension of it.

read my post 4 up, think about it for a second, go back and read the original, twice edited post, think about the tone of the question. It was as much a bash as a question. You would probably have something to say if someone asked you a question with that "tone".

Brother LEO's , Some will never understand. They will never know the fear we do have when we have to go thru the door , but we do it !!   They never hear about the times we settle problems w/o fanfare , but crawl out of the woodwork when a call goes bad. They will never understand till they have the guts to "do it".

What's wrong with a bash?  I agree that SWAT type entry teams are: Way overconfident and cocky when busting down someone's door at 1:00am who doesn't fight back, and 2) Way pussy when just ONE ARMED GUY may potentially shoot back.

Should I care?  Maybe.  I think most people on this board know the police are not there to protect us.  If somebody at my work said he was coming back to kill people he would get some serious high speed lead poisoning on his return.  I have an alarm on my home - not to call the police to save me, but to hopefully wake me up in time to intruduce Mr. Intruder to Mr. 12 guage. and the police will do their job by showing up and taking notes.

The outrage I believe lies in the fact that 1) We are constantly told the police are here to protect us (and therefore we don't need guns), incidents like this prove they are not, and 2) Many people on this board are denied CCW permits and thus must rely on the police, who arguably, in cases like this, wait for the shooter to commit suicide (plus they get to play with their cool equipment).

I know police are shot while bravely performing their duty.  Most of those cases are either 1) Trying to apprehend a suspect (too late to save the original victim) or 2) Their own personal "SHTF" situation (such as an ambush), not rushing into a building where a shooter is killing people.

These multiple shooting incidents are a perfect example why every man should be armed.  You may not get the bad guy all the time, but I bet if you asked any of the victims of these mass shootings if they would have liked to have been armed, I bet most would say yes!  In the end more lives would be saved.  Even if you had the occasional fruit cake running around creating these mass shootings.  The police can only react, that goes for the SWAT guys too.  Unless you had some vested interest (i.e. yourself or a family member under fire) it's probably hard to just run into a firefight I'd guess.

[img]http://imagep.webphotos.iwon.com//1000021026/1000021026_127200193737PM0.8960077.jpg[/img]

Johnny Jackboot Sez: You are either with us, or you are with the terrorists.

I have worked teaching medicine in ICUs,EDs,and FP clinics for 16 years.
Everybody in that position makes judgement mistakes and patients occasionally die earlier than they should.
Don't make any blanket statements about JBTs or Greedy MDs or cowardly LEOs.
The more publicized incidents usually have some errors in them somewhere.
Why didn't they go in earlier is a good question?
Who has the answer?
cpermd