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Posted: 12/4/2001 4:53:45 AM EDT
In my recent travels, I cam across a book which may be VERY helpful to a lot of you in your “answer seeking” about lifes nagging questions. Its called The Evidence Bible, and its King James Version text of psalms, proverbs, and the New testament, with the archaic words replaced with contemporary words, carefully dome to preserve the intent of the original writers.. And while the Word of God is certainly enuf to answer our questions, the “complier” Ray Comfort has added numerous inserts, footnotes and annotations that address questions that have come down thru time. He does it in a hard-hitting yet non-condescending manner that frankly is better than what I have TRIED to do here, in many cases. Questions like: 1. Contradictions in the Biblke – Why are they there? 2. The Bible claims a “young earth theory. How can we now se light from stars that are millions of light years away? 3. The Bible says “God repented.” Doesn’t that prove that God sinned? 4. Why does the Old testament show a God of wrath, but the New testament show a God of mercy? It also addresses claims like: 5. Jesus wasn’t sinless – he became angry when He cleansed the temple 6. Hell isn’t a real place. THIS life is hell. 7. God is unfair because both Hitler and a dear old lady I knew (both of whom were unsaved) will both go to hell. 8. There is no absolute truth 9. I’ll go to heaven because I follow the Golden Rule 10. You are using scare tactics when you talk about hell and The Great Judgment. And issues such as: 11. Abortion 12. The biblical absurdity of evolution 13. Science and the Bible – perfect harmony 14. Homosexuality 15. Archaeology, history, and the Scripture – One Voice In short, I highly recommend this book for ANYONE willing with an open mind to examine God’s Word. In His word, God encourages you to put Him to the test, and this book will help you do that. But as always, God will deliver what he promises.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:06:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 5:01:59 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Garandman, Looks interesting. Although I am not a religious person, books like that are usually a good read. I'll have to pick it up. If you want to expand your knowledge of other religious, try "World Scripture : A Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts" (my favorite). It was my college textbook, and was one of the few I kept. Features Scripture for almost all of the major (and not so major) religions, both east and west. Av.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:06:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 5:01:42 AM EDT by lurker]
[:K]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:11:28 AM EDT
Av - This book, "The Evidfence Bible" also compares "The Bible" with other religious texts, and even gives alot of pertinent info about other religions. It was THIS forum, in fact, that recently revealed my own COMPLETE lack of relevant info about other religions (thanks to MarjorMurphy [BD] ) I'll look into that "world Scripture" text you refer to. For instance, does it address the koran???
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:13:04 AM EDT
Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith" are also excellent books in this vein, and perhaps the best I've read answering the questions of those who earnestly seek the truth about Christ, but also have real doubts. I don't know what degree these two books overlap with "Evidence Bible", I will have to check it out... Juggernaut
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:22:57 AM EDT
You're welcome, garandman. There's a book that just came out called: "The Book" ...a History of the Bible by Christopher de Hamel Very informative.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:28:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I'll look into that "world Scripture" text you refer to. For instance, does it address the koran???
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It features text from several dozen relgions. I'm at work now, so I'll take a look at it on my lunch hour. Off the top of my head, I know it has text from the Koran, I'll post the other religions it features later today. Av.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:35:19 AM EDT
is anyone familiar with the works of Joseph Campbell? he analyzes every world religion, and points out their similarities and differences, best known for his works on comparative mythology IMO, he's a genius.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:39:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:10:43 AM EDT
Yes, and to anyone who has an open mind about reality, facts and evidence and doesn't let their spiritual beliefs filter reality for them, I would reccommend "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" by Carl Sagan, and "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer. For intelligent Christians who wish to reconcile their Christianity with the reality of a 4.5 billion year old planet on which life evolved from previous forms to present forms, a very good book is "Finding Darwin's God" by Kenneth R Miller.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:16:27 AM EDT
Carl Sagan is a great author. That book was a good one, again it was one of the required reading texts in college. If your open to different viewpoints, give it a try. Av.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:19:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: In short, I highly recommend this book for ANYONE willing with an open mind to examine God’s Word. In His word, God encourages you to put Him to the test, and this book will help you do that. But as always, God will deliver what he promises.
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Originally by RikWriter: Yes, and to anyone who has an open mind about reality, facts and evidence and doesn't let their spiritual beliefs filter reality for them, I would reccommend "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" by Carl Sagan, and "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer.
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Wll, there you have it - your two options. Rik - Why the necessity to insert the ad hominem "spiritual beliefs FILTER reality" when all I said was for ANYONE to "put God to the test?" Why the putdown and insult to those of "spiritual faith?" Why the assumption that faith FILTERS, or trumps, evidence??(Scripturally it DOES NOT, which is pretty much teh WHOLE POINT fo this thread)? I never indicated the "non-believing" have any "filter" (read: willful blindness) in place (at least not in this thread). Why ya gotta do stuff like that??? Doesn't really change anything - it just puzzles me.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:32:00 AM EDT
Well, the fact that we even talk about a Man (if it be lawful to call Such a 'Man') Who lived among us almost two thousand years ago, Whose coming was foretold by writings from more than three thousand years ago, Who gave a 'dividing of times' unto the Gentiles, Who brought a light unto the Gentiles that has pervaded every nook and cranny of the earth, Whose alleged birthdate roughly 2/3 of the world is about to celebrate (and BTW even Chinese calendars 'mark it'), Whose existence is even acknowledged and celebrated by the 1,000,000,000 Muslims in the world, and Who spoke as 'never man spake thus', is sufficient for me. All this, and a world more, is clear and convincing evidence for me to believe that He is Who He said He was. Period. And [b]if[/b] life was created by the sudden splash of a wave against some dark antediluvian shore, under an electrically charged atmosphere, and the [u]inorganic[/u] miraculously became [u]organic[/u], then I [b]know[/b] that Jesus was present and acting upon that one celled critter that was formed! But it is nice to have answers for the those who feel the need for answers. BTW, for a real dissertation of Jesus and the foretelling of His coming from Jewish scripture, read Alfred Edersheim's [i][b]The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah[/b][/i], written in 1886. Edersheim's research into this subject caused him to convert to Christianity in middle age! See this website: [url]http://www.ccel.org/e/edersheim/lifetimes/[/url] which contains his entire two-volume work. Eric The(Fundamentalist)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:43:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Doesn't really change anything - it just puzzles me.
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Then it accomplished the mission. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:48:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:49:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By garandman: Doesn't really change anything - it just puzzles me.
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Then it accomplished the mission. [:D]
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Well then I can assume the whole "peace on earth, good will toward men" thing is lost on you [rolleyes] Catch ya next time, Rik.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:56:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 6:49:14 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Originally Posted By raf: Here we go with another "God's Chilluns" vs. "Godless Heathens" thread. "Can't we all just get along?" R. King
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I thought this thread was about discussion of books that help expand your views about religion, or lack thereof, depending on the person. I'm an atheist, but can discuss religion rationally. They don't HAVE to deteriorate into "God's Chilluns" vs. "Godless Heathens" threads. I respect other peoples opinions, and I hope they respect mine. Av. Edited fer spellin'.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:58:00 AM EDT
Post from raf -
Here we go with another "God's Chilluns" vs. "Godless Heathens" thread.
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Well, [b]raf[/b], the Holy Days, er, I mean, holidays are upon us now! So expect even more as we see the Day approach! Eric The(WhatADifferenceAn'i'Makes)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 7:02:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 7:15:07 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 7:21:36 AM EDT
Here's my MUST read selection. Lets see if Garandman has time for a perspective other than those he clings too.....though I highly doubt it. [b]Why I Am Not A Christian[/b] By Bertrand Russell [i]Dedicated as few men have been to the life of reason, Bertrand Russell has always been concerned with the basic questions to which religion also addresses itself -- questions about man's place in the universe and the nature of the good life, questions that involve life after death, morality, freedom, education, and sexual ethics. He brings to his treatment of these questions the same courage, scrupulous logic, and lofty wisdom for which his other work as philosopher, writer, and teacher has been famous. These qualities make the essays included in this book perhaps the most graceful and moving presentation of the freethinker's position since the days of Hume and Voltaire. "I am as firmly convinced that religions do harm as I am that they are untrue," Russell declares in his Preface, and his reasoned opposition to any system or dogma which he feels may shackle man's mind runs through all the essays in this book, whether they were written as early as 1899 or as late as 1954.[/i]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 7:35:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 7:41:56 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By M4: "I am as firmly convinced that religions do harm as I am that they are untrue," Russell declares in his Preface, and his reasoned opposition to any system or dogma which he feels may shackle man's mind runs through all the essays in this book, whether they were written as early as 1899 or as late as 1954.
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As I have stated OVER AND OVER, I TOO am against religion. Religion is the opiate of the masses. Religion is what man invented to make himself look good before other people, and is based largely on pride and arrogance. God ALSO hates religion.
Here's my MUST read selection. Lets see if Garandman has time for a perspective other than those he clings too.....though I highly doubt it
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And again I ask "Why the adhominem attack, M4??? Why the necessity to editoiralize and make sterotypes about what I will or will not be willing to look at and evaluate?" You HARDLY have the basis for such an assertion. I've ALREADY stated in this thread my desire to broaden my knowledge re: other world religions, atheism ala Bertrand being just ANOTHER religion. Religions is NOTHING more than the set of rules by which you run your life. EVERYONE has a religion, unless they are dead. What faith (based on EVIDENCE, the whole PURPOSE of this thread) in Christ has done for me is made me fearless of truth - from ALL sources. Even bertrand Russell. If he has any. But it is largely YOUR responsibility as a Russellite to evangelize me as a Christian. If you think he has something so worthwhile to offer.(Just as it is largely my responsibility to evangelize you. And I **** DO ***** think God has something VERY worthwhile to offer.) I welcome your attempt to do so. God has answers to questions that Bertrand Russell never even thought up.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 8:17:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 8:12:09 AM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By garandman: And again I ask "Why the adhominem attack, M4??? ...But it is largely YOUR responsibility as a Russellite to evangelize me as a Christian. If you think he has something so worthwhile to offer. I welcome your attempt to do so. God has answers to questions that Bertrand Russell never even thought up.
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Garandman... Sorry you took what I wrote as an "attack"...it was really simply an opinion. Nothing more. As for it being my job to evangelize, no thanks. We've all seen the fine work of evangelists in the past, from the Spanish occupatiuon of South America to more modern examples like Jim Baker, I think many of us have seen enough of that approach. Stuffing MY beliefs down YOUR throat isn't my job, as it's not the job of ANYONE to assume that another person requires any help what so ever in making their own decisions about what to believe or not believe. I'm fairly certain that you don't feel your posts equate to stuffing your beliefs down anyones throat. Maybe they aren't exactly that. What they are is an assumption that for some reason you feel you have information, proof, evidence or whatever that some of us don't have. You feel some sort of mandate to spead this information to those who haven't been fortunate enough (or able) to locate it on their own. That in itself is a somewhat condescending assumption. I know, it's difficult to guage the individual abilities or weaknesses of those annonymous souls that inhabit the text based world of the internet, but try to understand that we were all given the same abilities to determine truth as you were. Though our conclusions may be different, it's not because we haven't been presented with the truth. It's because we all have different standards for what the truth is. I will simply suggest that if you care to understand the nonbeliever from an intellectual standpoint you read "Why I Am Not A Christian" by B.Russell.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 8:18:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Rik - Why the necessity to insert the ad hominem "spiritual beliefs FILTER reality" when all I said was for ANYONE to "put God to the test?" Why the putdown and insult to those of "spiritual faith?" Why the assumption that faith FILTERS, or trumps, evidence
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BTW, Mark...I don't consider this an ad hominem attack. Or at least if it is, it is one that could be used against about 90% of the human population so it is a very mild one in that case. MOST people allow their spiritual beliefs to filter reality for them. I probably still do it to some extent, even though I try not to. It's human nature.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 8:31:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: BTW, Mark...I don't consider this an ad hominem attack. Or at least if it is, it is one that could be used against about 90% of the human population so it is a very mild one in that case. MOST people allow their spiritual beliefs to filter reality for them. I probably still do it to some extent, even though I try not to. It's human nature.
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I'll take you word for it. But generally speaking, i see this type of rhetoric used to belittle people of faith as being "unsophisticated, willfully blind to science, uneducated, of lesser intelligence" than "those of us who have pursued the higher sciences." Normally, i would have ignored what I interpreted as the usual intellectual arrogance of those who reject Biblical truth, but the WHOLE PURPOSE of this thread was to elevate the discussion ABOVE the "oh, you use a filter" accusations and counter accusations that seem to pervade these discussions. Well, Here's a book for the "arrogant intellectuals" that argues NOT based solely on faith, but on EVIDENCE also. Best as I can tell, you COMPLETELY missed that point. And as to your point about it being "human nature" to "filter" truth, that's teh GREAT CONTRADICTION. My faith in jesus Christ has opened my mind to truth, and NOT placed a filter in the way of truth. All truth - in ALL forms. Becasue God IS truth - He doen't fear it. The more we know truth, the more we know God, which is something God has been known to encourage. People try to stereotypicalize Christianity as being afraid of truth - when for REAL Chrsitianity, nothing could be FURTHER from teh truth. Christ OPENS your eyes - NOT "filters" them.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 8:55:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 8:48:25 AM EDT by Renamed]
Something is amiss here... In the same message, we have:
As I have stated OVER AND OVER, I TOO am against religion. Religion is the opiate of the masses. Religion is what man invented to make himself look good before other people, and is based largely on pride and arrogance. God ALSO hates religion.
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But then we also have:
Religions is NOTHING more than the set of rules by which you run your life.
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Don't the two quotes taken together imply that God hates people having rules for their lives?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:03:34 AM EDT
Garandman...........what are you doing? Did you not see this in the other topic..... "Speak not in the ears of a fool; for he will despise the wisdom of your words. Proverbs 23:9" It would be time better spent to pick dog poo off your boots that to try and talk to some of the folks in here about anything they can't eat or shoot.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:04:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Don't the two quotes taken together imply that God hates people having rules for their lives?
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Given my two quotes, that IS a fair question, and the answer is "Yes." God hates us all having rules to run our lives by OTHER than His rules. When men make up rules to run their lives, its is know as 'religion'. Men do so to make themselves look good compared to other men. They use these so-called rules to justify ALL KINDS of actions that God's rules do NOT justify. Since God is the Creator, and we are His creation, His rules are NOT religion, but rather reasonable, just as I make the rules about a picture frame I am making in my home workshop. Of course, these are MY defintions which anyone os free to accept or reject. But I do roughly base them on Biblical principles, as best i can.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:09:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By big_bore: Garandman...........what are you doing? Did you not see this in the other topic..... "Speak not in the ears of a fool; for he will despise the wisdom of your words. Proverbs 23:9"
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Watch closely which posts I choose to NOT respond to, and you'll know how, and to whom, I apply that verse. [;)] But generally speaking, MANY people in here are capable of carrying on a civil discourse. basically it comes down to this - when the "end" comes, i want to be able to stand before God and say "Lord, I did EVERYTHING I could to get my friends at AR15.com to know you. I did my best, Lord."
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:09:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 10:04:45 AM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By garandman: Normally, i would have ignored what I interpreted as the usual intellectual arrogance of those who reject Biblical truth, but the WHOLE PURPOSE of this thread was to elevate the discussion ABOVE the "oh, you use a filter" accusations and counter accusations that seem to pervade these discussions.
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Because you suggest a book that means the discussion of the great oxymoron "biblical truth" will be elevated as a result? Arrogence is not a virtue...try to keep that in mind.
And as to your point about it being "human nature" to "filter" truth, that's teh GREAT CONTRADICTION......The more we know truth, the more we know God, which is something God has been known to encourage.
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No....actually the GREAT CONTRADICTION is "the more we know truth, the more we know god." Clinging to mythology to guide your life isn't exactly what some people call knowing the truth. It appears far more as personal desperation than anything else, and is rather unimpressive to say the least.[;)]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:27:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: My faith in jesus Christ has opened my mind to truth, and NOT placed a filter in the way of truth. All truth - in ALL forms. Becasue God IS truth - He doen't fear it. The more we know truth, the more we know God, which is something God has been known to encourage. People try to stereotypicalize Christianity as being afraid of truth - when for REAL Chrsitianity, nothing could be FURTHER from teh truth. Christ OPENS your eyes - NOT "filters" them.
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That's your view of course...as filtered through your spiritual beliefs. I disagree.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:46:36 AM EDT
I might find a use for such a book.Might come in handy should I ever run out of toilet paper.Of course that's all any bible is fit for anyway.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:48:43 AM EDT
Post from MOLITAS -
I might find a use for such a book.Might come in handy should I ever run out of toilet paper.Of course that's all any bible is fit for anyway.
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Mighty insightful comment you made there, mighty insightful, indeed! Eric The(AndAwfullyWitty,AsWell!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:23:22 PM EDT
Garandman sure has been on the religous rampage the last couple weeks. What's up man? I know it's always about your diety choice, but you have been pouring it on pretty thick.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:24:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MOLITAS: I might find a use for such a book.Might come in handy should I ever run out of toilet paper.Of course that's all any bible is fit for anyway.
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You can roll tobacco in the pages of a bible as well.
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