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Link Posted: 1/4/2002 11:09:03 PM EDT
[#1]
As a rather large person (6'1", 245lbs) I feel I must interject that most big dudes won't cause you a problem. In my experience, it's the shorter, smaller guys that usually seem to have an attitude. Most big dudes have been that way  most of their lives and don't get F'ed with very often. However, in case a big MF comes after you (and you didn't provoke him) I recommend that you either RUN (big=slow) or go for a head shot, if necessary.

Big dudes are people too....really... we are...
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 12:34:52 AM EDT
[#2]
Even a head shot won't always guarantee success. I remember once watching a TV show which featured a woman who was a Sheriff's deputy in Kentucky(?) who survived a point-blank shot to the face from a 38. As it happened, the bullet lodged in the sinus cavity behind her cheekbone.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 7:46:23 AM EDT
[#3]
Exactly why I carry 16 little friends w/ me.  1 in the pipe, and 15 buddies in line.

WL
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 9:05:11 AM EDT
[#4]
You should be aiming at the sternum ANYWAY,so what is this "shift POA higher" stuff? The guy who blew a bullet out of his nose was shot ELEVEN times in the face, at arm's length, by 2 NYPC stakeout specialists. It's in Cirillo's book.  .38 lrn's. Not even ONE of the 7  38 lhp's that struck Platt and Matix in the head actually pierced their craniums. So you .32 and Makarov fans just keep on dreaming, along with the guys who THINK that they are going to have their AR15 with them in some parking lot. You CAN, however, have 223 Softpoint type power in a pistol, if that pistol is 10mm, .45 smc, .45 Super, .45 smc, 40 Super, or 460 Rowland. Just check out RBCD'S 10mm Mag load. 77grs at 2450 fps, 1050 ft-lbs. Out where the 223 sp actually HITS deer, what do you THINK that the remaining velocity is with a 70 gr Speer sp? If the smaller case of the 10m gets a 77 gr slug to 2450 fps, given the fact that SOME 10mm's lack a fully supported barrel, what do you THINK can be done with larger cases, in barrels that ARE fully supported?  How much speed do you think is POSSIBLE to lose in going from 5" to 4" barrels? I have the answer to THAT. 100 fps, TOPS. So it is just a question of how overstated the claims are by RBCD, is it not? In this day of Net spread of bad info, and $150 chrono's, an outfit whose claim to fame is high velocity would be pretty stupid to lie very  MUCH about their performance, now WOULDN'T they? Little 300 ft lb and less loads fail quite frequently,even on  small men, and even smaller animals. That is a fact. When you move up to even .22 Mag RIFLE type speeds, or 30 carbine speeds, however, things start to change, and 22 Hornet, 30-30,7.62x39 type speeds enter the range wherein the temporary cavity actually  does destroy tissue that the bullet never touches.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 9:21:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Who says that the firing will be at 6m? 6 FEET is more like reality. Who says that you will even get off more than one shot, much less get to empty the mag, then grap an ANKLE gun. A man can easily be all OVER you from 6m in 2 seconds, a truly fast man can do so in 1.5 secs, and even a fat guy can be so in 1.5 seconds if he starts at 10ft distant. Who says that the fight won't start at the length or width of a car? In fact, it USUALLY does. Have you ever TIMED getting hits on the head, at 3-6 ft, even on a STATIONARY target? I guarantee that you won't get more than .35 sec splits with plus p 158's in a steel 38 snub, and not better than .50 sec with the air wts. Most headshots are deflected by the skull, but ADEQUATELY powerful hits to the head at least dazzle the guy, anyway, allowing you to hit him again. Firing only once at the head is childlike in its fantasy about success on such a small, moving mark. The knee is an even smaller mark,much more mobile, much less likely to suffice, and it calls for too great (read too SLOW) shift of POA. When your adrenalin dumps, you will be LUCKY to hit the chest with all shots, at a mere 10ft, that is REALITY. Knee shots are asinine claims by the ignorant. You can't even justify such in court. Firing at someone is lethal force. If you are not in fear of your life, why are you aiming at the knee? A lawyer will  tear you apart in court. The jury is  made up of little old ladies, remember. You will rarely have more than 2 seconds in which to have more than LUCK determine the outcome. If you must make a concealed draw, from a belt rig, 1-2 shots, at 6 ft and less, is probably all that you will get to fire. That's why you want a TRULY powerful, yet controlable gun. Such can be had, even in a pocket auto. You just have to use the really hi-v prefrags, in the 357 Sig or 356 TSW, in the Keltec or the Kahr. 600+ ftlbs. In belt guns, you can have 900 ftlbs, 2400 fps, like a 223 softpoint, by using such ammo.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 6:47:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:

I think I would rather have my Remington 870 if the bad guy was in close.  00 or a slug will do a number on even a fairly large beast up close (large deer, elk, etc.). ...
View Quote


In general, I agree with mejames.  However, there always seems to be an exception of some sort.

The following story was related to me several years ago by Instructor Gerry Smith of the Smith and Wesson Academy:

While working as a Kansas City Police Officer (I think), he had occasion to shoot a large threatening male three times with a shotgun using 9 pellet 00 buck.  The male did not go down.  The only reason he stopped shooting was that the male called out “Stop, you’re hurting me”.  The male was transported to a hospital where twenty-seven 00 pellets were removed from him.

Smith is now a law enforcement sales rep for S&W.  He might be at the SHOT Show if anyone going there wants to corroborate this story.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 7:27:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:

I used to know a man here in Phoenix who was shot SEVEN times at close range(inside his own house) with a .45 ( shooter reloaded while chasing him).  All seven where hits.

The shooter, who shall remain nameless, chased him around inside the house and out to the yard before he scrambled over the fence to the neighbors.

When the paramedics in the ambulance heard that they were responding to a man shot seven times, they shut off their siren and lights - they figured DOA.

The paramedics finally arrived they found him sitting up on the couch bleeding but conscious and talking.

After he recovered, I saw him again and actually saw each bullet wound ( you could count the entry & exit wounds.) Obviously no critical organs were hit - but, hell - SEVEN hits with a .45 and the still scrambled over a 6foot block wall!

It all comes down to "product placement".


View Quote


Obviously it wasn't "his time" to die.  Something or someone must have been there to see that he didn't die.  Either that or the shooter was firing reloads that weren't worth a shit.  

Chuck
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 7:28:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Standard failure to stop drill:

Two to center of mass;

If they fail, two to the head;

If they fail, two to the pelvic girdle.

Repeat until the aggressive action stops.

The pelvic girdle shots are "last ditch." Since your other fire is ineffective, the pelvic girdle shots are your attempt to mechanically disable your opponent and take away their ability to walk. If you break your assailants hipbone, regardless of how strong/crazed/stoned they are, they will lose the ability to stand upright or walk.
View Quote


That's it.  That is the drill.  I can't think of a better way to put down a BG.

I know we have had several stories about big dudes and FTS.  In the strange world of bullets, ballistics, and physics, FTS a perp is going to happen once in a while.  We should remember, that is the exception to the rule.  I believe that 99% of ALL persons shot with a handgun in the manner described above are toast.

Further, as has been said many times before, practice...practice...practice.  Get your mind thinking about what you would do in the unlikely event your BG does not drop.

Also, try to give yourself an edge by optimizing weapon and ammo selection.  My preferred carry piece is a Walther P-99 in .40 S&W.  I actually think the .45 ACP is more effective...but the differences are not too great and I can hide the Walther much more easily than I can my old Ruger.  I chose Cor-Bons JHPs as my self protection ammo.  Others will work just as well.  I think what we are after in this life or death fight is shock rather than just pure penetration.  As others have already said, large cross section JHPs traveling at the highest speed possible will deliver far more kinetic energy and shock to the perp than a hardball round of the same caliber.

I know there are skeptics out there with even more tales about monster men facing down a barrage of gunfire, but I just can't buy it.  Two to COM and one to the head...I just can't imagine any human surviving that.  Think about that for just a second.  A large caliber self defense round from within the usual combat range of a few yards and the guy doesn't drop instantly?

Finally, I wonder at the ability of just about any creature to survive a single blast from my 12ga Mossberg M-590A with 3" magnums.  I load a mix of number 4s and 00 buck.  The ballistics tests with that ammo indicates that the damage done to flesh and bone is just short of hitting the victim with a cannon ball.  It just rips a person apart.

[argue]
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 11:11:05 PM EDT
[#9]
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