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Posted: 12/2/2001 12:52:08 PM EDT
I recently traded a 700 PSS in .223 to a family member (Father)! [:)] Need to keep it in the family. Well, last week I went to the gun show and picked up another one just like it for a REAL good deal. I have mounted a Pentax Lightseeker 8.5-32X-44mm. Let me just say I LOVE this scope! I started out at 100 yards and sighted it in and it was shooting 1/2 MOA. I was very happy with the performance. This afternoon I thought I would step back at 350 yards and see how well she would do at some clay targets. The PSS was eating the clay targets up like nothing at 350 yards. NOTE: The clay targets were prone and not in the air! [:)] If you don't have a PSS I strongly advise you to get one. I like it so well I am going to buy a LTR this coming spring.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 1:19:46 PM EDT
Not Fair! I ordered a Rem 700VS (.308) Two months ago. Price was great, but now the 'seller' is just saying "BACKORDERED!" [soapbox] Grrrrrrr
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 1:26:39 PM EDT
Excellent Morgan-Keegan. I have a PSS in .308 and it's a great rifle. It helps that I got it near cost too. It sometimes pays to know people. Mines sports a Leupold 4.5-14x40 AO with a mil-dot reticle. Good choice :)
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 2:14:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2001 2:08:45 PM EDT by Morgan-Keegan]
Here she is [img]http://www.advertisehorse.com/guns/PSSPentax.JPG[/img] My next project [img]http://www.advertisehorse.com/guns/sako.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 3:39:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jasonspd: Excellent Morgan-Keegan. I have a PSS in .308 and it's a great rifle. It helps that I got it near cost too. It sometimes pays to know people. Mines sports a Leupold 4.5-14x40 AO with a mil-dot reticle. Good choice :)
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How much?
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 3:50:44 PM EDT
I've got the same gun with a 6.5x20 leupold and it shoots just like yours
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 3:57:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2001 3:52:47 PM EDT by LotBoy]
I'll take a Savage model 10FP or 110FP any day of the week. [url]http://www.savagearms.com/new/index.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 6:33:30 PM EDT
Honest question- what's the difference between your 700PSS in .223, and my 700VS, also in .223? Judging by the pic, we have the same piece, excepting that mine has a Sendero stock. (Same dimensions, with a little cosmetic spider webbing pattern.) I don't even see a PSS in the 2001 catalog... is this a special edition type arm?
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 6:40:30 PM EDT
Arq, no bolt lock, 2 front swivels and a few other things. I think the new Remingtons are reffered to as Police models instead of PSS.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 6:42:36 PM EDT
The PSS and the VS are exeactelky the same rifle, except for the stock. The PSS is their rifle that was marketed for as a police sniper rifle. They have since stopped selling it to the civillian market.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 7:34:33 PM EDT
Posted by swatbwana in GFD... "The PSS is not the same as the VS as a remmington factory trained armorer I can tell you that. The VS models are assembled on the line with all other hunting guns. The PSS models are assembled in the custom shop where the benchrest guns are made the 40 series guns. All the gunsmiths in this area are the best remmington has, they all have pictures of the custom guns on at their work stations next to their kids and trophy deer pictures. These are the long time first rate employees that know their sheot. The PSS guns are assembled in this area and the attention to detail is what makes the difference. Oh BTW if you ever get a chance to go to Illion and take the remmington factory Armorer school at the factory you will be in heaven the history and collection of firearms in that building are unreal, and you gate a whole afternoon at the skeet and trap range shooting whatever you want including the high dollar double guns:)."
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 7:58:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2001 7:55:01 PM EDT by SWIRE]
The Remington 700 PSS kicks but. I just got back from the range with a Remington 700 PSS in .308 and shot my best group ever. I've hardly ever shot a scoped rifle so I think this is pretty good. Check it out, 3/8 of an inch. I wasn't even using handloads or match ammo. This was with military surplus ammo. [img]www.patriotarms.com/group1.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:22:21 AM EDT
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid27/p9fd9afd9398df57d09293f19e5d33150/fe1d0fca.jpg.orig.jpg[/img] I'm getting a Leupold Mark 4 M1-10x40mm when I can save up $1089.00![:O]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:24:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Arquebus12: Honest question- what's the difference between your 700PSS in .223, and my 700VS, also in .223? Judging by the pic, we have the same piece, excepting that mine has a Sendero stock. (Same dimensions, with a little cosmetic spider webbing pattern.) I don't even see a PSS in the 2001 catalog... is this a special edition type arm?
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[url]http://remingtonle.com/rifle/700p.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:39:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Morgan-Keegan: Arq, no bolt lock, 2 front swivels and a few other things. I think the new Remingtons are reffered to as Police models instead of PSS.
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Ya Arq, we all got preban bolts!
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:03:09 AM EDT
Love it! I highly recomend the PSS LTR. Here's mine with Leupold 6.5-20x 50mm long range tac. [img]http://imagep.webphotos.iwon.com//1000020976/1000020976_123200194840AM3.191775E-02.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:36:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Morgan-Keegan: Here she is [url]http://www.advertisehorse.com/guns/PSSPentax.JPG[/url] quote] Is it just the way it looks in the PIC or does yours have a 20" barrel?
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:41:34 AM EDT
Here's mine with a Leupold Long Range Target 6.5-20x50 [img]http://home.epix.net/~angrytek/700p.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 11:13:00 AM EDT
Sir: The .223 PSS has a 1:9 twist barrel (same as the Savage, AR15..) Great for 62+ Gr bullet. The VS series has a 1:12 twist barrel. Slower twist is best for lighter bullets, higher velocities, better varmint "splatter" Regards ACK
Originally Posted By Arquebus12: Honest question- what's the difference between your 700PSS in .223, and my 700VS, also in .223? Judging by the pic, we have the same piece, excepting that mine has a Sendero stock. (Same dimensions, with a little cosmetic spider webbing pattern.) I don't even see a PSS in the 2001 catalog... is this a special edition type arm?
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Link Posted: 12/3/2001 11:47:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2001 11:39:27 AM EDT by Cypher214]
Here's mine. It's a .300 win mag with a Springfield Armory 6-20x56 Gen. III w/ Mildot. The stock on the PSS/Police have a different contour than the Sendero/VS stocks. The PSS has a larger palm swell, higher comb, wider fore-end, 3 sling swivels, and is aluminum bedded throughout the entire length of the forearm as well as the action. [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/030/Oy/Rs/3j/ic45359.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:12:41 PM EDT
If what [b]Arock[/b] says is true. Then I want to buy one. Not wanting to come off as a Sniper Wannabe I was going to settle for the VS. From what I've read and heard, the only difference between PSS&VS was the stock. If you're telling me they're made to higher standards, that's a whole other issue. My dealer has been good to me, [i]did lots of business with him this year[/i], maybe he can order one. If not, where can I get one? Heck, it's my 10th year anniversary, it'll be just a fraction of what I spent on her.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:24:38 PM EDT
Remington Model 700 P & LTR Caliber : 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) (700P & 700LTR) 5.56x45mm NATO (.223) (700P & 700LTR) .300 Win Mag (700P) 7mm Rem Mag (700P) .300 Rem Ultra Mag (700P) Barrel : 700P - 26" Heavy Contour, Free floating 700LTR - 20" Heavy Contour, Free floating, Fluted Stock : Matte black, HS Precision semi-beavertail, Palm-Swell LTR stock is slimmed down to save weight and size. Bedding : Aircraft-grade aluminium bedding block Magazine : 4-round internal magazine (Besides 5.56mm) 5-round internal magazine (5.56mm) Trigger : Fully adjustable sights : None furnished, drilled and tapped for scope mounts price : around $750.00 The Remington 700P is a very nice sniper rifle for the money. This "Entry Level" rifle is quite capable of shooting .5 MOA right out of the box (.75 MOA is more common). This rifle has all the right features for the right price. It uses a HS Precision stock with palm swells and an aluminum bedding block. The actual action and barrel are the same that are used on Remingtons varmint rifles, with the difference mainly in the stock. Packaged combinations, known as the 700P Tactical Weapons System (TWS) can be bought from the factory and includes a carrying case, Harris Bi-Pod and a Leupold Veri-X III 3.5-10x Tactical Scope with Duplex reticle. The package has some other goodies also. The 700P (and its variants) have come to be the standard for police agencies. Remington has been introducing new models also, including the LTR and others. The LTR was designed as a lighter weight, compact tactical rifle for urban situations. It has a 20" fluted barrel and a slimmed down stock. Accuracy is about the same as the standard 700P, but you will lose some velocity with the shorter barrel. Technically, Remington only sells them to law enforcement, but the rifles are available through various distributors to civilians. Model Caliber Weight (lbs.) Barrel Length Standard Twist 700P LTR .308 Win. 7½ 20" 12" .223 Rem. 7½ 20" 9" 700P .223 Rem. 9 26" 9" .308 Win. 9 26" 12" 7mm Rem. Mag. 9 26" 9 1/6" .300 Win. Mag. 9 26" 10" .300 Rem. Ultra Mag. 9 26" 10" 700 TWS .308 Win. 10½ 26" 12" 700 VS LH .308 Win. 9 26" 12"
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:55:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BigZ: My dealer has been good to me, [i]did lots of business with him this year[/i], maybe he can order one. If not, where can I get one?
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If your dealer deals with Accusport in Montana, he could get one there.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 1:31:24 PM EDT
Vampire- I got it for $689 out the door. I spent another $600 on the scope, $70 for the bipod.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 1:39:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2001 1:59:25 PM EDT by Nekkid80]
Originally Posted By Arock: Posted by swatbwana in GFD... "The PSS is not the same as the VS as a remmington factory trained armorer I can tell you that. The VS models are assembled on the line with all other hunting guns. The PSS models are assembled in the custom shop where the benchrest guns are made the 40 series guns. All the gunsmiths in this area are the best remmington has, they all have pictures of the custom guns on at their work stations next to their kids and trophy deer pictures. These are the long time first rate employees that know their sheot. The PSS guns are assembled in this area and the attention to detail is what makes the difference. Oh BTW if you ever get a chance to go to Illion and take the remmington factory Armorer school at the factory you will be in heaven the history and collection of firearms in that building are unreal, and you gate a whole afternoon at the skeet and trap range shooting whatever you want including the high dollar double guns:)."
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Being the the retail firearm business with a full service in house gunsmith shop, I have seen the 700PSS. A gentlemen came in and complained of poor accuracy. The culprit was a piece of stock material, crushed when the stock was tightened to the barreled action. This caused a pressure point and was the cause for the erratic accuracy. I have heard of some chambers being made off center line to the bore. This action in question would not chamber a GO headspace gauge. The independent gunsmith stated that it was because of an untrue chamber. He might have made a chamber casting.....I don't know. The rifle was shipped back to Remington and they said it was within their Quality Control spec. The rifle would shoot 1 1/2-2" groups. This was "acceptable."(with Match Ammo) The gunsmiths* at the shop that I worked with said it was an assembly line rifle. Whether not this has changed or not I don't know, it was five years a go. If Swatguy went there they might be perusing if it was LEO armorers specifically. Again I don't know for sure. Has anyone checked the price of the production varmint versus the PSS? There is probably 50-75 dollars more for the PSS. Go price a 40x, or have a gunsmith work up a price for a "Custom Rifle." I doubt it would be $675-700 dealer cost. It can't be done. With a factory rifle you can get one that is good or...........not so good. These rifles can shoot very well. I don't want this to sound derogatory, just practical. *Edited to add that these smithes were also Remington Trained Armorers.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 3:10:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2001 3:04:14 PM EDT by Alacrity]
Originally Posted By Nekkid80: Has anyone checked the price of the production varmint versus the PSS? There is probably 50-75 dollars more for the PSS. Go price a 40x, or have a gunsmith work up a price for a "Custom Rifle." I doubt it would be $675-700 dealer cost. It can't be done.
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My thought exactly. Before I read Nekkids post I was thinking what a deal a PSS would be. All that custom gunsmithing for basically free. Sure seems a deal when compared with semi-customs like Robar or McBros. Not a fair comparison I realize, they incorporate quite a bit more than a PSS. Nonetheless if it is built like a 40x (not just in the same room) its one hell of a deal, seeing a 40XB KS runs roughly three times as much. Does anyone know specifically what assembly techniques Remington uses for the PSS? Is the action trued? Do they hand lap the barrel? What accounts for the difference in price between the 40x and the PSS? I can speculate but thats all. Maybe the custom shop guys just assemble the parts, without any extra work. Better smiths - better rifles, perhaps. If the barrels and actions all come from the same pool, well there's no work to differentiate them. But for a $100 bucks, the promise of a better shooter and what I feel is a nicer stock, probably not a bad deal. Not paying for a 40x nor should one be expected. Luck Alac "Remember theres no shooting problem that a fair amount of skill, Kelby, Lilja, McGee, a bit of luck, all in concert cant solve" Attributed to some ass up at Perry. If you are that ass I apologize, I had a bad go that day. If true Im blaming the middle three.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 3:56:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2001 4:50:24 PM EDT by Arock]
**Alacrity sez..."Does anyone know specifically what assembly techniques Remington uses for the PSS? Is the action trued? Do they hand lap the barrel?" I don't know what techniques Remington uses but here's my recent experience with my LTR: Our LTR consistently shoots sub-1/2 min groups out to 600 yards with GM308M. Slightly more at 1000 with GM308M2. We sent the rifle to Hill Country Rifles in New Braunfels, Texas for accurizing. Not that it needed more accuracy but to ensure it kept its edge. Upon return HCR noted how little they did to the rifle. Barrel crown was good and centered. Lugs were true and did not need additional lapping. Bolt face was true. HCR did bed the action in the HS Precision stock. The barrel finish was pretty good out-of-the-box as examined with a bore scope, but we did additional hand-lapping ourselves. Did not notice any measurable change after lapping. This tells me that instead of a lot of expensive hand-finishing, hand-selected parts are used in the assembly of the LTR and PSS. The final product fits and works well for me.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:19:00 PM EDT
Morgan, Ulysse, and ACK, thanks for the straight dope and referrals. Answered a lot of questions for me... Best of luck,
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:41:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2001 5:35:32 PM EDT by cnatra]
My father has a PSS LTR DM in .308 & he consistently shoots .5 MOA groups with 165-168gr BTHP ammo. He zeroed it at 200yrds so just a little high at 100yrds & just a little low at 300yrds. A nice Leupold 4.5x14 Tactical on it. I want to get a PSS in one of the .300 magnum calibers. I already have a .308 Savage 10FP. Shoots as good as the Remington but the action is not as smooth & I spent $100 on the trigger. If I upgraded the factory stock I'd be at the same price as the Remington was new. In hindsight I think i should have sprung for the PSS. I don't think these are "custom" rifles. maybe just hand picked parts as suggested. You figure the H&S stock & the barrel count the most for the accuracy. A VS or VSS should be about equal. Also an H&S stock (slightly different profile) & a HB.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 7:29:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Arock: We sent the rifle to Hill Country Rifles in New Braunfels, Texas for accurizing. Not that it needed more accuracy but to ensure it kept its edge.
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You can always use more accuracy, its just a question of utilizing it or paying for it. Ive got quite a bit of accuracy bought up in one of my Remingtons, doesnt shoot all that much better than a stock VS. But it sure impresses the hell out of people. Makes me look bad when I dont shoot all that well; downside of nice rifles. So even if they dont hand select, they've got a good baase from my experience. Anyone know if PSS or P is currently or ever been chambered for 7mm Rem Mag? I prefer it over .300 Win Mag - just idle curiosity, Im set on rifles at present. Luck Alac Light, Strong, Cheap - pick two
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 7:40:40 PM EDT
7mike-mike is this year's new chambering for the PSS. The PSS is currently offered in: .223 Rem .308 Win 7mm Rem Mag .300 Win Mag .300 Rem Ultra Mag The LTR remains chambered for .308 Win and .223 Rem only. Due I'm sure to the 20" barrel.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 7:51:05 PM EDT
So, now I have a question. Is the Sendero assembled on the line or in the custom shop?? Mine seems as if they paid a lot of attention to details.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:00:03 AM EDT
IF they offer it in 7mm RemMag, thats the ticket. Dont skimp on barrel length. I cant find squat on the PSS/P anywhere, 24" or 26" barrel lengths? Where are you getting the specs? Obviously nothing on Remingtons site. Think I might have my brother interested. He was cringing at $2k for a 40X. He'd be better off with a PSS/P and the remainder in reloading. Anyone think about e-mailing Remington for an answer to the whole PSS assembly question? Anyone know a Remington Rep or Smith? Always nice to dispense with the speculation (or start a new round). Luck Alac
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:23:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 10:22:04 AM EDT by Arock]
Alac...Ulysse_Nardin_1846 posted the Remington LE site earlier. [url]http://www.remingtonle.com/rifle/700p.htm[/url] I think you'll find most of the basic information and specs there.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:53:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Arock: I don't know what techniques Remington uses but here's my recent experience with my LTR: Our LTR consistently shoots sub-1/2 min groups out to 600 yards with GM308M. Slightly more at 1000 with GM308M2.
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[b]Whoa Whoa Whoa - Arock am I reading you right?[/b] You shot half MOA at 1000 yds? Thats 5 inches by my read. How many shots in that string? With GM308M2? Thats the 175g Gold Medal .308 Win match I think - no? Whats the length of the barrel? I must be misunderstanding - can someone straighten me out. Much obliged. Luck Alac Palma black is 44 inches, with a 20 inch 10
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:56:31 AM EDT
Ahh thanks I missed it.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:27:54 AM EDT
I just purchase a 700VS and topped it with a Leupold 4.55-14x50 Long Range Tactical scope being held in place with a MK4 base and Badger Ordnance rings. When I spoke with a Remington Rep about the difference between the VS and the PSS he told me they were exactly the same except the stock. Both pillar bed on aluminum. I figured the stock wouldnt be around long (want a McMillan A4) so I went with the VS.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:51:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By misterhemi: So, now I have a question. Is the Sendero assembled on the line or in the custom shop?? Mine seems as if they paid a lot of attention to details.
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I'm curious what rifle are they offering the .338 Ultra in? Sendero? I wonder how that would compare to the .338 Lapua ballisticly?? It should be close eh? I'll have to dig around & find some loading data.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:02:53 PM EDT
If you are wondering about the differences between the PSS and VS read the following. [URL]http://www.snipercountry.com/rem-700.htm[/URL]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:11:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 2:05:35 PM EDT by Arock]
**Alac sez..."Whoa Whoa Whoa - Arock am I reading you right? You shot half MOA at 1000 yds? Thats 5 inches by my read. How many shots in that string? With GM308M2? Thats the 175g Gold Medal .308 Win match I think - no? Whats the length of the barrel? I must be misunderstanding - can someone straighten me out. Much obliged" Your math is indeed correct. Last time I shot the LTR at TacPro's 1000 yard range it produced 5 shot sub-moa with 175gr Federal GM308M2. I'll have to get home and pull out the data book to get the precise numbers. It's a basically standard LTR with the 20 inch barrel. But that's no real feat. Last weekend Sluggo took his Hart-barrelled .223 bolt gun loaded with 90gr projos and shot .2 moa groups at the same 1000 yds. He did however have the benefit of a perfectly still morning. His load was 26.2gr of N550 running 2850 ft/s. Now that's shooting. I will admit to having some experience at 1000 yds. I compete with my AR50 in FCSA long range matches. Last June my AR50 placed 5th in Unlimited Rifle at the World Champs at Raton NM. Groups that weekend were in the 7.135" range.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 8:33:27 AM EDT
Mate thats not good shooting that damn near miraculous. Don’t belittle yourself. I do a bit of long range. Just to put things in perspective for folks that don’t know, GM308M2, as most .308, drops about 250 inches at 1000 yrds with a 600 yd zero – which, amazingly is about the same for hot .223 – throw in a light crosswind and your looking at 100 inches of drift. Try correcting that. Rough observations from memory, but I think they are close. Realize bullet weights and loads and barrel lengths all modify this. Out of a 20” tube, its even more amazing. Don’t do much with benchrest, but at one time the NBRSA 1000 yd record (heavy) was around 6.5 inches. Heh, you can tell Im no benchrester, they could tell you to the .0001. Think its held by Skip Talbot who shot that couple of inch .50 cal group. You should see the stuff these guys shoot. NBRSA is ten shoots for record and a lot can happen doubling your chances, but even then thats still good shooting. Given most folks expect 1:5 ratio from 100 to 1000, meaning if you want to shoot 1 MOA at 1000 your going to need .2 MOA at 100 – You get .2 at a 1000, hell Ive got no idea. Most folks would be happy with a “Palma” rifle that shot consistently .5 MOA at 100 yds. And that costs too. If your getting anywhere near that you’ve got one hell of a rifle for what you’ve got in it. I wouldn’t expect this from PSS’s in general. Luck Alac Every shot increases the chance of a flyer. Anyone reading this who digs long range ought to get to Perry for the Long Range Firing School, you'll enjoy it. End of the matches normally so figure mid August. Dont show up with a Service Rifle - dont ask. 1000 yds sure aint 600.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 8:56:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2001 10:20:00 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
A-rock said "[b]Last time I shot the LTR at TacPro's 1000 yard range it produced 5 shot sub-moa with 175gr Federal GM308M2.[/b]" MOA @ 1000yards = 10 inches Which is it, A-rock? sub-5" or sub-10" You also say "[b]Sluggo took his Hart-barrelled .223 bolt gun loaded with 90gr projos and shot .2 moa groups at the same 1000 yds[/b]" That's [b]2" @ 1000 yards[/b] w/ a 90grn 223 round. I'm in Houston, A-rock and wondering where can I get some of what your smokin? It must be really good stuff. NO FLAME, I just don't believe it, Mike
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 12:22:26 PM EDT
Yeah , I'm a little skeptical too. A 26" PSS I'd believe for sure , but a 20" LTR , DAMN! That's some shooting! Maybe it's one of those "you'd have to see it to believe it" things? NO flame intended. What kind of scope at 1000yrds on that LTR?
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:15:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2001 1:39:23 PM EDT by Arock]
OK let's get started... **Mr_Wilson sez..."You also say "Sluggo took his Hart-barrelled .223 bolt gun loaded with 90gr projos and shot .2 moa groups at the same 1000 yds" That's 2" @ 1000 yards w/ a 90grn 223 round. I'm in Houston, A-rock and wondering where can I get some of what your smokin? It must be really good stuff. NO FLAME, I just don't believe it." I had lunch with Sluggo today and had my hands on the bullets he used. I was wrong when I said they were 90gr. They are bare 80gr Lost River Ballistics J40's. His best 3-shot group was 2.02 inches. What you choose to believe is your problem. Come shoot with us and see if you can beat us before you make up your mind. **cnatra sez..."What kind of scope at 1000yrds on that LTR?" I use either a Leupold Mk4 M1-16 or a Leupold 8.5-25x50 LRT. Both have been reworked by Premier Reticles with mods like Mk4 turrets on the LRT, different reticles, calibrated adjustments etc. but no power boost. **Alac sez..."Don’t do much with benchrest, but at one time the NBRSA 1000 yd record (heavy) was around 6.5 inches. Heh, you can tell Im no benchrester, they could tell you to the .0001. Think its held by Skip Talbot who shot that couple of inch .50 cal group." I know how it is to be humbled. When I fired my Heavy Rifle groups at Raton, my firing position was between Skip and Randy Dierks. Skip's "Weather Station" is an impressive tool for precise long range shooting. And the 165 pound rifle that won Unlimited is pretty close to an artillery piece. BTW Unlimited this year was won with a new Unlimited world record 5-shot group of 3.5 inches.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:33:06 PM EDT
And to add...**cnatra said...A 26" PSS I'd believe for sure , but a 20" LTR..." .308 Win is a barrel length-tolerant cartridge. Different in this respect from magnum-type cartridges that need a longer barrel to work. One of the LE weapons magazines did a test earlier this year where they took a .308 chambered bolt rifle with a 26 inch barrel and calibrated it's accuracy and bullet speed performance. They then cut sequential 1 inch sections off the barrel (down to a length of 16 inches) and repeated the tests. What they found was that ballistic performance of the .308 degraded only slightly until barrel length was reduced to less than 20 inches. Sometime we'll compare my LTR with a PSS using the same loads and same chrono. My guess is there won't be more than 40-50 ft/sec difference. BTW, PSS won't stay supersonic to 1000 yards with 168 gr GM308M any better than my LTR. Both go unstable around 900 yards. But both the LTR and PSS are stable at 1000 with 175gr GM308M2. That's why TacPro won't allow GM308M to be fired on their 1000 yard range. Hope that helps.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:53:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2001 1:47:32 PM EDT by Nekkid80]
Originally Posted By Arock: And to add...**cnatra said...A 26" PSS I'd believe for sure , but a 20" LTR..." .308 Win is a barrel length-tolerant cartridge. Different in this respect from magnum-type cartridges that need a longer barrel to work. One of the LE weapons magazines did a test earlier this year where they took a .308 chambered bolt rifle with a 26 inch barrel and calibrated it's accuracy and bullet speed performance. They then cut sequential 1 inch sections off the barrel (down to a length of 16 inches) and repeated the tests. What they found was that ballistic performance of the .308 degraded only slightly until barrel length was reduced to less than 20 inches. Sometime we'll compare my LTR with a PSS using the same loads and same chrono. My guess is there won't be more than 40-50 ft/sec difference. BTW, PSS won't stay supersonic to 1000 yards with 168 gr GM308M any better than my LTR. Both go unstable around 900 yards. But both the LTR and PSS are stable at 1000 with 175gr GM308M2. That's why TacPro won't allow GM308M to be fired on their 1000 yard range. Hope that helps.
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The .308 Win has a good expansion ratio. This ratio is case volume to barrel volume. That's why a big magnum benefits more from a longer barrel. $.02. [peep]
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 2:07:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Arock: OK let's get started... **cnatra sez..."What kind of scope at 1000yrds on that LTR?" I use either a Leupold Mk4 M1-16 or a Leupold 8.5-25x50 LRT. Both have been reworked by Premier Reticles with mods like Mk4 turrets on the LRT, different reticles, calibrated adjustments etc. but no power boost.
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CooL!
I know how it is to be humbled. When I fired my Heavy Rifle groups at Raton, my firing position was between Skip and Randy Dierks. Skip's "Weather Station" is an impressive tool for precise long range shooting. And the 165 pound rifle that won Unlimited is pretty close to an artillery piece. BTW Unlimited this year was won with a new Unlimited world record 5-shot group of 3.5 inches.
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WoW!
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 2:08:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Arock: And to add...**cnatra said...A 26" PSS I'd believe for sure , but a 20" LTR..." .308 Win is a barrel length-tolerant cartridge. Different in this respect from magnum-type cartridges that need a longer barrel to work. One of the LE weapons magazines did a test earlier this year where they took a .308 chambered bolt rifle with a 26 inch barrel and calibrated it's accuracy and bullet speed performance. They then cut sequential 1 inch sections off the barrel (down to a length of 16 inches) and repeated the tests. What they found was that ballistic performance of the .308 degraded only slightly until barrel length was reduced to less than 20 inches. Sometime we'll compare my LTR with a PSS using the same loads and same chrono. My guess is there won't be more than 40-50 ft/sec difference. BTW, PSS won't stay supersonic to 1000 yards with 168 gr GM308M any better than my LTR. Both go unstable around 900 yards. But both the LTR and PSS are stable at 1000 with 175gr GM308M2. That's why TacPro won't allow GM308M to be fired on their 1000 yard range. Hope that helps.
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THX for the info.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 3:35:10 PM EDT
Folks, lets not forget that the accuracy we are speaking here are "best" groups. I hate these damn "best" groups threads, they always seem to crop up and always seems to be a bone of contention. You'd be surprised if you shoot enough, and keep your strings limited, what kind of groups you'll see. Consistency over a number of shots is the key, and thats the hard part, whole lot of variables in flux. Its all about variables. I havent seen many .308 shooters, outside Palma, at 1000 yds. Any/Any shooters dont normally shoot .308, nor Any/Iron. But with iron sights, 15 shots each at 800,900,100 -a total score of 450-45X is possible. It happens. This with Iron sights and 45 shots. There was a guy that I saw in an old Precision Shooting that shot a 3.5 inch [b]20[/b] round group. Think is was a Kreiger ad, might have just been a entry. Cant remember caliber or other specifics. Am I dumbfounded someone shot 5 rounds into 5 inches? No. Am I dumbfounded that someone shot 3 into 2? No. 3 is barely a group. Up top I said more you shoot the more you get to screw up. Always pissed when you see a great score marred by a single flyer. I was suprised that in one case it was done with fairly stock PSS. But as its a "best" group, the gods smile and things fall into place. [b]Arock[/b]- Shoot any of the new Black Hills 175? Curious how it stacks up to the Federal. Im guessing good. Im still not sold on the whole 20-26 barrel thing. You see 29-30 inch tubes for a reason. But Im assuming that LTR primary mission aint 1000 yds. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 4:39:51 PM EDT
**Alac asks..."Arock- Shoot any of the new Black Hills 175? Curious how it stacks up to the Federal. Im guessing good." Haven't tried them yet but BH 175 molys are on my list. Do you know if they're available as blue box or red box only? I share your anticipation of good performance. BH and Fed GM are the standards for the factory load industry right now. I'll be calling Eric the Ammoman or Georgia Presision. **and..."I'm still not sold on the whole 20-26 barrel thing. You see 29-30 inch tubes for a reason. But I'm assuming that LTR primary mission ain't 1000 yds." I agree with you there too. The LTR wasn't acquired with any preconception of 1000 yd shooting. One of my instructors, a former US Army Ranger instructor, got me to work on my long range technique with it. He got me trained-up to 600 yards and I took it from there. The LTR is a police-type weapon that will most likely be used at ranges under 150 yards. It's not a military rifle that may be used 300-600 yards. I don't know of any being used by our services. It just works for me and it's fun to shoot at the edge of it's capability. The only issue using the LTR is the need to either sandbag the bipod or hold on to the bipod with your offhand to make rapid follow-up shots. It's so light even the .308 gives significant muzzle flip. **and in closing..."Am I dumbfounded someone shot 5 rounds into 5 inches? No. Am I dumbfounded that someone shot 3 into 2? No. 3 is barely a group." 3-shot/5-shot group is an issue to be debated till the adult beverages run out. In everyone's book a single five-shot group is MUCH harder to produce, but not necessarily harder than consecutive 3-shot groups. I don't know what either proves but I'll trust a known shooter's 3-shot group about as much as an unknown's 5-shot. The best recommendation I'm aware of for more shots on target is there's no serious competition that uses 3-shot groups.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 9:38:59 PM EDT
[b]Arock[/b]- I only remember seeing redbox, if you talk to Ammoman he'll know. Now that Im thinking about it, I dont remember ever seeing any .308 bluebox. But Ive seen mouse gunning for a bit now so havent paid attention to .308 as I have in the past. I, like you evidently, think highly of BH. I dont reload .223 and until Black Hills I had a hell of a time in service rifle. As long as my lot holds out I should be fine. Funniest thing Ive ever heard was "Man, you aint shooting that blue stuff are you? Man, thats [i]used[/i] ammo. You know reloads" Wasnt directed at me so I kept my mouth shut. But I seriously thought about leaving the line. Used, heh, damn thats still funny. Ill not quarrel about group size. I agree with you in principle. As I think you stated, the more shots in a group the better a indicator they are of base accuracy. Until you get that anomaly. Never have been sure the difference between 4 five shot and one 20 shot group. Then again I squeaked by stats. Personally I look at rolling averages of good calls. As they start to increase I know I have something somewhere coming loose. Normally me. Still impressed with your LTR. You got a good one. As impressively good as that is though I know theres one lurking out there as impressively bad. Luck Alac
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