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Posted: 11/25/2001 2:54:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:09:48 PM EDT
Some people can't be told nicely, and will hate you for warning them about the danger they are creating. Good for you.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:10:48 PM EDT
Let me be the first to say... You did good! fuck him and all others like him. People with his attitude and recklessness are not helpers to our cause, but are the ones that CAUSE us to need help. No_Expert
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:13:28 PM EDT
Yeah, that was good. Who cares if he left and never comes back? Good ridiance(sp?)! We don't need people like that.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:18:25 PM EDT
Good for you. I was at spring valley yesterday, and saw a ton of that type of stuff. The Rangers were on top of it, and did their best to keep the range safe. I should have thanked them. Some time ago, they painted a big yellow line behind the benches, and no one is allowed to cross it when there are people downrange. Of course all this cuts down on cleaning up the gene pool (natural selection) I'm kidding of course(?) AIRBORNE
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:23:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By crumabn: Good for you. I was at spring valley yesterday, and saw a ton of that type of stuff. The Rangers were on top of it, and did their best to keep the range safe. I should have thanked them. Some time ago, they painted a big yellow line behind the benches, and no one is allowed to cross it when there are people downrange. Of course all this cuts down on cleaning up the gene pool (natural selection) I'm kidding of course(?) AIRBORNE
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the DNR run range here has the yellow line, 8-10 feet behind the benches....can't cross the line until the range is called clear and hot. No_Expert
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:25:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:26:21 PM EDT
you did the right thing john
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:28:51 PM EDT
Good for you Maynard...no doubt you saved a life.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:34:47 PM EDT
You did good. If the kid is not mature enough to own a firearm, he has no business in having one.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:36:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:41:02 PM EDT
Its pretty much SOP at all the places where I shoot. Its a great idea. Just remember to ENFORCE IT!!
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:45:35 PM EDT
Nice work, man. Fuck that clown with the mouth. If you're wondering why he got nasty with you, don't forget he is supposed to be Captain Badass, Lord Adult out with the kids....you showed him up in front of them. No way he could just get in his car and swallow his pride with a lesson learned. He's also probably one of these assholes that absolutely REFUSES to allow anyone to discipline his kids, even if it means his kid kill someone. When an accident happens, they'll be soooo sorry, and the first thing they'll do after the girl blasts a hole in her brother's back is sue the range, and you, because you were on duty, and you didn't do enough to idiotproof the world for them. Oh, and we have the yellow line on my range too, and everyone takes GREAT pleasure in slapping the fingers of the "old hands" that show up and think that the rules are just for the rookies. Nice work. Vass
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:12:32 PM EDT
To quote the words of one of the greatest Naval instructors I ever worked with "Safety is paramount" this was the last thing our students ever heard befor entering the range or the simulators. yet some a$$hole always managed to screw it up. In our hunting club, we have a range area next to the cabin and the rules are simple and posted in plain sight, each member knows the penalty for violating the rules... Swift, Painful Death. well maybe not that extreme, but we have never had an accident. unless you count the time Gino had too many beers and fell into the camp fire.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:36:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2001 5:30:51 PM EDT by No_Expert]
Originally Posted By Maynard:
Originally Posted By No_Expert: the DNR run range here has the yellow line, 8-10 feet behind the benches....can't cross the line until the range is called clear and hot. No_Expert
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Excellent idea, I'll run this up the flagpole at the club meeting this Wednesday. Thanks for the kind words guys.
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I'm going back to the range next weekend...I'll take the digital camera. No_Expert edited cause I can't quote right on the first try
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:51:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2001 5:47:16 PM EDT by X--Kill]
[size=4][red]BRAVO![/size=4][/red] Very well done Maynard.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:03:20 PM EDT
Those people are obviously stupid and have no business shooting at a range where people police themselves.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:15:28 PM EDT
Job well done! I have been to uncontrolled ranges where the hillbillies sit at the bench and fiddle with their guns while people are down range. This is the point where I become an "asshole" and take control of the range. Once you are use to shooting at a properly controlled range, it is real hard to deal with these folks.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:54:46 PM EDT
And they probably went home and while cleaning the weapons sent a round thru the wall ,ceiling ,floor or each other .
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:07:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By alfajim: And they probably went home and while cleaning the weapons sent a round thru the wall ,ceiling ,floor or each other .
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Or, possibly, they were the two-legged turds that had an AD from their bolt-action at Dallas-Fort Worth airport yesterday..... No wonder the public is so anti-gun and so anti-hunting. Fools like these ruin it for everybody else. Morons. But, hey, Maynard- you did the right thing- good job!
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:16:44 PM EDT
I dont know why gun ranges dont require members or visitors to take the NRA gun handling and safety coarse? Not all of us had a Dad to teach us safety.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:38:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2001 7:31:40 PM EDT by DavidC]
Back in my mispent youth I worked at an indoor gun range for a time. I had cleared the range to fix a carrier that had been shot down and was standing down range when the guy who had shot the carrier down (long time member), walked back into the range and picked up the gun on the bench at the point I was working on and started playing with it, including pointing it down range towards me. I immediately yelled at him to put the gun down. He responded with "It's not loaded." I drew my carry gun and said "This one is, now put the fucking gun down." He turned white, put the gun down, and left the range (out to the lounge). When I came off the range he was in the owner's (a friend of his) office bitching about me. I got laid off a couple of weeks later. Some people are just too stupid to let walk around without a keeper.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:22:34 PM EDT
You did good. It only takes one mistake in a lifetime on a range to ruin at least two people's lives; the person who caused the accidental discharge, and the one who was on the receiving end and their family. Every decent range should have a brochure, or if funds are available, a video of how that particular range is run for new members. All ranges are set up different because of the lay of the land, etc. Some have full time rangemasters, some don't have any at all. It can be very intimidating going to a strange new range, knowing where you should wait for a bench, where you can shoot certain firearms, etc. and it's the responsibility of veteran members to educate those newbies the first time they visit the range. Just explaining some rules doesn't cut it. You've got to show people around and lead by example. And yes, you will get the know-it-alls who enter the range and don't want to be told what to do. Show them the way back to their vehicles.[;)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:53:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By crumabn: Of course all this cuts down on cleaning up the gene pool (natural selection) I'm kidding of course(?)
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It'd be cute, except the idiots are the ones who pick up the guns, not the people who went downrange to check/change a target. . . .
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 11:23:51 PM EDT
DavidC, Exactly what was your justification for brandishing a loaded firearm at the other fellow? You couldn't move to one side or the other, out of the "line of fire," circle around him, back to the line and reinstruct the moron on range safety? You acknowledged that the doofus's weapon was empty and therefore not an immediate threat to your safety, yet you found it necessary to draw your weapon and threaten his life? I wouldn't have waited a couple of weeks to lay you off. I would have fired you on the spot. What you described you did would constitute a crime in most jurisdictions.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 3:35:13 AM EDT
Maybe that fool will be more cooperative after one of his kids is hurt (or worse) at a range...what a moron. If he can't understand why safety officers are there to help & avoid accidents then the does not belong on a range...let alone own firearms. "They" do background checks before allowing you to purchase firearms...They should do an IQ check before allowing some people to have children.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 3:44:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 3:45:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: DavidC, Exactly what was your justification for brandishing a loaded firearm at the other fellow? You couldn't move to one side or the other, out of the "line of fire," circle around him, back to the line and reinstruct the moron on range safety? You acknowledged that the doofus's weapon was empty and therefore not an immediate threat to your safety, yet you found it necessary to draw your weapon and threaten his life? I wouldn't have waited a couple of weeks to lay you off. I would have fired you on the spot. What you described you did would constitute a crime in most jurisdictions.
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Go back to shit house law school.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 5:59:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: DavidC, Exactly what was your justification for brandishing a loaded firearm at the other fellow? You couldn't move to one side or the other, out of the "line of fire," circle around him, back to the line and reinstruct the moron on range safety? You acknowledged that the doofus's weapon was empty and therefore not an immediate threat to your safety, yet you found it necessary to draw your weapon and threaten his life? I wouldn't have waited a couple of weeks to lay you off. I would have fired you on the spot. What you described you did would constitute a crime in most jurisdictions.
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No flame here bro...but how many people have been shot with " an unloaded weapon"? just like the guy last week at the airport.. it was "unloaded". The guy at thhe range here "knew" the weapon was unloaded and had a guy down range... what if he "knew" wrong and that made him careless and had an A.D.?? DavidC KNEW FOR A FACT his carry gun was loaded and treated it appropriately... less likely to have an A.D., if he even had his finger on the trigger (which I don't know but would think he didn't...yet). Had DavidC been shot, could we have been as hard on that shooter than on DavidC for considering himself in HARMS WAY. he told the guy to put the gun down.. and my reading of the post is the guy DIDN'T, he said it was unloaded... then DavidC drew on him. No_Expert
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 9:13:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 9:09:26 AM EDT by Dave_G]
Let's see...A bozo breaking a non-criminal range rule is justification to use deadly force against him? When I was trained as a Marine RSO, nowhere in the training were we told that it was proper to draw a weapon and threaten anyone with death for being stupid. That's what good NCO's and SNCO's are there for. Whether the weapon DavidC's moron was handling was loaded or not is not an issue. The moron said, and DavidC acknowledged that it wasn't loaded. He knew that there was no intentional threat to his life, just his authority. He had no legal or moral justification to threaten the moron's life. He grossly mishandled the situation. As for the "sh*t house law school" comment, try this from the California Penal Code:
417 (a)(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows: (A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
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DavidC's actions satisfy all of the elements of the crime. Had he aimed the weapon at the bozo, it would have been assault with a deadly weapon. I didn't learn this stuff in law school. It came in the criminal law classes in college, the academy and other training and experience. And I worked ranges for years. I never had a shooter have a negligent discharge and managed to stop negligent handling of firearms without threatening anyones life. Maynard acted properly with his bozos. If you think DavidC's actions were correct, you are mistaken.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 9:27:29 AM EDT
Always treat ANY gun as loaded, esp. when it is somebody else handling it in a casual fashion, pointing it in your general direction, saying, "Oh, it's not loaded- don't worry." That is the time I WOULD worry, and react accordingly. David C. didn't get arrested, because more than likely his bosses knew that they would not have a good case against him in a court- otherwise, he'd have been arrested.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 10:20:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 10:13:55 AM EDT by Dave_G]
Range officers or range masters, especially those at commercial ranges, are supposed to be aware that from time to time, some moron will pick up a weapon while someone is downrange and respond by properly enforcing the range rules in a firm, business-like manner. When going downrange to repair range equipment, it is incumbent upon the range officer to ensure that all weapons on the line are safed and unloaded, and to warn all shooters not to handle weapons. DavidC was likely pissed off at the guy to begin with for shooting the target carrier and just let his temper get the better of him. He was lucky. By drawing a loaded weapon and menacing the moron and everyone else on the firing line, DavidC broke the rules he was supposed to be enforcing and, if he was in California and the incident occurred as described, he committed a violation of Section 417(a)(2) CPC. I'm certain that other states have similar laws, which are grounds for permanent revocation of any CCW in Florida and California at the minimum. Check your local laws concerning justification for the use of deadly force. I don’t think you will find, “Moron handling firearm in an unsafe manner while someone is downrange” anywhere. DavidC wasn’t arrested because it was unlikely that the boss was a peace officer and likely didn’t observe the incident. The moron could have made a citizen’s arrest or contacted the DA’s office about filing charges if in California, but probably settled things with his buddy, the boss.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 10:48:17 AM EDT
You acknowledged that the doofus's weapon was empty and therefore not an immediate threat to your safety, yet you found it necessary to draw your weapon and threaten his life?
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I think you had better re-read DavidC's post, because [u]NOWHERE[/u] did he "acknowledge" that the idiot's weapon was in fact unloaded... he merely stated that his [u]WAS[/u] loaded. I have taken fire while on a range, and I assure you it is a less than pleasant feeling... especially when the shooter knows you are there, but is "just goofing around" and clearly states it that way!
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 10:57:43 AM EDT
Quoted from DavidC:
I immediately yelled at him to put the gun down. He responded with "It's not loaded." I drew my carry gun and said "This one is, now put the fucking gun down."
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"This one is..." would be considered [b]acknowledgement[/b] in just about any court I have appeared in as an arresting officer or expert witness.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:07:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Quoted from DavidC:
I immediately yelled at him to put the gun down. He responded with "It's not loaded." I drew my carry gun and said "This one is, now put the fucking gun down."
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"This one is..." would be considered [b]acknowledgement[/b] in just about any court I have appeared in as an arresting officer or expert witness.
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is that acknowledgement that the other guys gun in known to be unloaded or a statement that DavidC's IS loaded. I don't know...but I look at it as objectively as I can, if I was a Jury member typoe of thought, going on only what we've been told... you have my interpretation. I'm not a lawyer, not a LEO... No_Expert
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:08:40 AM EDT
That is not an admitance that it was unloaded. How many indoor ranges have you worked at? If somebody is playing with a gun and their half-assed answer is that it is "unloaded", I would have them removed because, what, children, is the first rule of firearm safety? The gun is always loaded. Remember the reference to the moron in Texas with the AD? It was "unloaded" too, and some ranges have carriers that can only be accessed by walking down the row, putting you in the line of fire of any brainless person who happens to be fondling their gun. Sorry to flame you, but this bozo should have respected authority, which they taught you in the Marines, instead of acting like a prick and then whining to his buddy, which they taught you was a No No in the Marines, and getting somebody fired. This in no way means he was right for drawing down on the guy, but sometimes you have to get their attention when they are doing something stupid which could cost you your life. Ice
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:13:23 AM EDT
"This one is..." would be considered acknowledgement in just about any court I have appeared in as an arresting officer or expert witness.
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That is not even close to an "acknowledgement" as you put it... It is merely a factual statement of the condition of the sidearms that was drawn by DavidC! To even remotely qualify as an "acknowledgement", David's response would have been more to the effect of, "I don't care if it's loaded or not..." or "Yea I know, but I said drop it anyway..." There is a vast difference in what YOU perceive to be an acknowledgement, and what actually qualifies as one! Don't take this wrong, but next time you enter court as an "expert witness", you should have the facts thoroughly verified...
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:24:54 AM EDT
If he was protecting himself.....he was in self defense and dosnt meet the steps for this crime..a gun was pointed at him he reacted....how many officers have had a gun pointed at him and the dumb ass say "its not loaded" guess what I bet the officer does Draws Down ill give good odds
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:52:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Let's see...A bozo breaking a non-criminal range rule is justification to use deadly force against him?
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Here in NC, pointing a firearm at someone is felonious assault, and the law clearly states that the gun need not be loaded. While I'm sure it would go to court, the presence of a deadly weapon, the commission of felonious assault with a deadly weapon, and the lack of available retreat would satisfy the letter of our law for the use of deadly force. The condition that the guy THOUGHT the gun was in is irrelevant. I'll let you decide if brandishing trumps felony assault with a deadly weapon or not.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:58:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 11:53:49 AM EDT by Dave_G]
Guys, Your lack of experience is showing. I've had [b]Known[/b] loaded firearms pointed at me and others on a range; I've had officers, who should have known better, sweep the range with a loaded weapon; I've had the mayor of a local city, totally unfamiliar with firearms, panic and lose control of a MAC 10 in full auto while I was helping the local PD rangemaster with a demo shoot. I never felt the need to draw down on anyone. No real good will ever come from such an act. I've done take-aways, blocked muzzles and stopped actions with a commanding voice and I have never had an unintentional or negligent discharge by a shooter. That's the difference between a [b]professional[/b] and an amateur. And it doesn't matter a bit whether the moron's weapon was loaded or not. Under the circumstances as described, DavidC would have had no right to use deadly force to enforce a range rule. We could play semantics games all day long, but your interpretations wouldn't fly in a real court. Moron saying, "It's not loaded," removes any intentional or implied threat on the part of the moron. The owner of a commercial range facility at which employees were permitted to carry loaded firearms while working would be liable for damages for any injury or property damage the employee did, were one of those employees to shoot a customer handling an unloaded weapon on the line with a person down range. Felonious assault is a specific intent offense. Moron would have had to [b]intentionally[/b] point the firearm at the range officer. Being stupid in public does not constitute intent to commit a criminal act.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 12:05:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 12:05:25 PM EDT by DavidC]
Dave_G - Apparently you've never worked, or ever been, at an indoor range open to the general public, or you would know just how silly you sound. You clear the range, ask people to leave, and then you go fix things. You don't walk to every point and personally clear each firearm. And I can't even remember how many times I checked on an "unloaded" gun in the lounge only to find that it was still loaded. If someone points a gun at you and you tell him to put it down and he says "don't worry, it's not loaded" and continues to point the gun at you, feel free to try to get out of his way. I'll try to refrain from saying "I told you so." I wasn't upset with the guy for shooting down the carrier; it happened about once an hour. I don't let people point guns at me. I don't let my children point water pistols at each other, why would I let a proven moron point a deadly weapon at me? BTW, local LEO response, when I banned the moron from the range for a month (local cops liked to hang out in our lounge for some reason) didn't seem to indicate that I had commited a crime. The conversation went something like "He pointed a gun at you, told you it was unloaded, and didn't put it down?" "Yep" "And you DIDN'T shoot him?" And by the way, Dave, I don't recall "brandishing" a gun. I didn't even point my firearm at him, or even put my finger in the trigger guard, despite the fact that he kept pointing his at me regardless of my movement. I don't even understand your argument, actually; this guy wasn't handling a gun a some distant range location. He picked up a gun at the point I was working on and pointed it down range directly at me. Maybe that wasn't clear on my original post so let me spell it out: HE POINTED A GUN DIRECTLY AT ME AND IGNORED THE RSO COMMAND TO PUT THE GUN DOWN. And it's a shame you weren't the owner of the range I worked at, and fired me under these circumstances. It would have been nice to own a going business at age 21; well at least to own the part my lawyer wouldn't have got for his services. Especuially since the lawyer that did own the range couldn't find grounds to fire me for that action or to even lift the suspension of the moron's membership.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 12:10:00 PM EDT
Actually, in AZ it does, a stupidity law is on the books. I can see what you're saying, but it still didn't work using your technique of telling them to put it down. And muzzle blocking and disarming are really ineffective when said moron is about 25 feet away. I got a question for DavidC. What was said moron doing in the range instead of waiting in the lobby for the range to be fixed? Just curious. You can yell all you want, but sometimes the dog is still going to bite you, Ice
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 12:17:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 12:13:52 PM EDT by antiUSSA]
Guys, your lack of experience is showing.
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[red]It's nice that [b]YOU[/b] are able to tell who is/isn't experienced from this thread...[/red]
That's the difference between a professional and an amateur.
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[red]We're sorry for even thinking that we know what we are talking about... In the future, we'll be sure to let [b]YOU[/b] professionals deal with everything...[/red]
The owner of a commercial range facility at which employees were permitted to carry loaded firearms while working would be liable for damages for any injury or property damage the employee did, were one of those employees to shoot a customer handling an unloaded weapon on the line with a person down range. Felonious assault is a specific intent offense. Moron would have had to intentionally point the firearm at the range officer. Being stupid in public does not constitute intent to commit a criminal act.
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[red]And just who is responsible when the dumbass shoots and kills an RO that is working downrange..? Clearly NOT the dumbass, as he stated his gun was unloaded and YOU acknowledged that it was in fact unloaded![/red] [blue]As much as I despise cop bashing, my opinion of that is changing rapidly from YOUR interpretations of this thrtead... You didn't comment on how I should have handled the situation that I wrote about earlier... The one where 3 of us were being shot past while returning from setting bowling pins on a 25yd range. The shooter had an HK91, and while he was clearly [u]NOT[/u] shooting at us, he sure thought it was funny as hell to watch us squirm while his 308 rounds buzzed [u]PAST[/u] us. FWIW: We were still half way down range when he began shooting past us![/blue]
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 12:21:06 PM EDT
Dave_G - To address your inane "professional" comment, at the time I was certified by the state of PA to train police officers in two areas; the PA Criminal Code and firearms. Also, you seem to think this random sweeping of the range with a firearm; it wasn't. He thought it was funny to point the gun at me. And my statement that my gun was loaded is not an acknowledgment that his gun wasn't. Ice - I don't know why he had come back in. I had cleared the range and was on a stepladder fixing the carrier when he came back in to start this.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 12:29:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Let's see...A bozo breaking a non-criminal range rule is justification to use deadly force against him? As for the "sh*t house law school" comment, try this from the California Penal Code:
417 (a)(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows: (A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
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DavidC's actions satisfy all of the elements of the crime. Had he aimed the weapon at the bozo, it would have been assault with a deadly weapon.
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Umm... Putting my two cents in: Did not, by your above quote, the individual pointing the "unloaded" weapon commit a crime, should be arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon???? Just to reinforce what I stated:
...Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner,
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Seems to me that David was entirely correct in his actions.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 12:30:13 PM EDT
Not my semantic games, but the state of NC's. If you want to play with them, try popping the rear pin on your AR, and sweeping a bunch of cops with a jackknifed AR. I wouldn't suggest ignoring the command to put the weapon down though, even though it clearly can not fire in this condition.
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Felonious assault is a specific intent offense. Moron would have had to [b]intentionally[/b] point the firearm at the range officer.
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He has stated that the gun was pointed directly at him, and the man refused to put the gun down. (Firm words). I'd be starting to get nervous about the man's [b]intent[/b], and not just stupidity at that point.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 1:14:37 PM EDT
Anti, My opinion regarding the expressed or implied experience level of an individual is limited to what they have posted as compared to my 24 years of experience and the many, many hours of training and expertise in a variety of relevant activities. I am a professional by training and experience. I am accepted as an expert witness in a variety of courts. That does not necessarily mean that my opinion carries more weight than yours or anyone else’s. It just means that my opinions are firmly grounded in practice and law, often better than that of most others are. If the moron had accidentally shot DavidC, the moron would have been criminally and civilly liable for his actions, and the range owner would have been civilly liable for not having enough employees on duty to permit the stationing of another range officer behind the line while DavidC repaired the target carrier. If the shooters had been told to leave the range while the work was being done, then DavidC’s failure to secure the range to prevent re-entry while the work was done probably would have mitigated the liability of others to a degree to be determined by a judge or jury. At any rate, going downrange without confirming that all weapons on the line were unloaded and safed was negligence on DavidC’s part. I didn’t comment on your experience simply because it was too vague and incomplete, as the second description also was. WMitty, The “in a rude, angry, or threatening manner” element is missing. DavidC may have [b]felt[/b] threatened by careless weapon handling, but legally, “stupid in public” isn’t threatening. It’s just “stupid in public.” DavidC, Anything else you want to add to the story before I respond. Trying to respond to an evolving story is a waste of time. The more you add, the more the circumstances change, but as of the writing of this post, bad judgment on your part still reigns. Thumbtrap, Different issue, different answer, but the officers might slap the moron down. They wouldn’t be drawing down. And evidence of specific intent is still required for felonious assault. Of course, the longer we wait, the more DavidC’s story will change. By the way, simply moving to the moron’s strong side will help you judge intent. If the muzzle tracks you moving to his strong side unintentional negligent weapon handling leaps into the realm of intentional acts and changes the entire event.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 1:27:41 PM EDT
If I had pointed a gun at a RO, I would expect a tounge lashing. If I argued with a direct command to disengage the weapon, I would expect a lifetime ban. It seems to me that the dumbass wasn't actually aiming, just pointing, and then justifying his actions. There was obviously no murderous intent based on the brief exchange. If some dumbass pointed a gun at me while I was downrange, I would immediately hit the deck and yell "Put the gun down!" I would not even think of drawing unless the dumbass said nothing and dropped the muzzle to level with my head. The assumptions concerning implied/inferred threats are different at a gun range than they are in a dark alley at 2am. I have to agree with Dave_G, there was no particular reason to respond to a person with the threat of deadly force, when it cannot be construed that there was any criminal intent. This thread is making lots of people mad, and I can certainly understand how DaveC must feel (Too many Daves). I have had guns accidently pointed at me before, and I want to thonk heads when it happens. If the guy had refused to put up the gun after the exchange, and then acted as if to prepare to fire, I would have done the same thing. Had things turned out ugly, the shooter, regardless of who it was would be in a world of trouble legally. I suppose guns force people to both take extreme responsibility and to accept a certain amount of liability.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 1:47:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 1:43:53 PM EDT by DavidC]
Dave_G- Nope- no more to add. I only added details once you accused me of commiting a crime. And you're still wrong. There is no negligence on my part. No range has a standard policy of locking the doors while the range is cleared. Once he picked up a gun, closed the action, and pointed it at me any steps I had taken prior to that point is meaningless. His actions satisfied the necessary mens rea element of criminal assault in Pennsylvania. He knew the range was cold. He knew that it was a violation of range policy to pick up a gun on a cold range. He knew he wasn't supposed to be out there until the range went hot again. And he was pointing a gun at another person. His statement that the gun was unloaded doesn't make it correct, nor were my actions improper. You seem to be implying that I couldn't take action unless he actually fired at me. You're wrong. Period. At the very least the moron was in violation Title 18 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, Section 2705: [b]§ 2705. Recklessly endangering another person.[/b] A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if he recklessly engages in conduct which places or may place another person in danger of death or serious bodily injury. And might well have been guilty of [b]§ 2702. Aggravated assault[/b] (1)attempts to cause serious bodily injury to another, or causes such injury intentionally, knowingly or recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life; since pointing a gun at somebody might well qulaify as reckless indifference to the value of human life. It would depend upon how aggressive a ADA choose to be. Torf - I took no action until the moron refused to put the gun down and continued to point it at me. There's no distinction between pointing and aiming; I was 25 yards away and the gun was aimed at my center of mass. Hitting the deck while standing on a ladder wasn't an option [:)] (edited to add the response to torf)
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:15:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DavidC: Torf - I took no action until the moron refused to put the gun down and continued to point it at me. There's no distinction between pointing and aiming; I was 25 yards away and the gun was aimed at my center of mass. Hitting the deck while standing on a ladder wasn't an option [:)] quote] Aw c'mon! Concrete is not that hard! Seriously though, 25 yards is pretty close. I was picturing more like 75 yards. I live in Illinois. Here even owning an AR15 while getting in a fistfight with a serial killer can get you charged with 43 more felonies than Vishnu has arms. Don't get me wrong, it is legal to own them, but if I ever have to defend myself or home, I will probably spend the rest of my life in court.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:19:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Anti, My opinion regarding the expressed or implied experience level of an individual is limited to what they have posted as compared to my 24 years of experience and the many, many hours of training and expertise in a variety of relevant activities. [red]I am a professional by training and experience. I am accepted as an expert witness in a variety of courts.[/red] That does not necessarily mean that my opinion carries more weight than yours or anyone else’s.
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Go back to shit house law school. Or at least cite case law on this matter. Michigan is a common law state and as such you can defend yourself. Also, you proved he was right in your own citation.
It just means that my opinions are firmly grounded in practice and law, often better than that of most others are.
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Based on what?
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