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Posted: 11/25/2001 9:08:42 AM EDT
After reading about the hell oneshot is going through plus some of the other experiences posted by others, I'm seeing LEO's and the justice system in a different light. I know not all LEO's are like the ones oneshot ran into but I'm starting to feel that there's more LEO's who feel that way than not. Oneshot's ordeal has really got me angry and scared because it show's how even when you're right it's a no win situation. The time and money spent defending yourself from bogus charges, not to mention property confiscation. This whole thing is just on big unbelievable nightmare. Now when I see an LEO I start to worry what he or she would do if they knew about my "Arsenal". How would they react if some busybody neighbor called them on me. Overall I just don't trust the system anymore. I just had to get that off my chest...
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:22:54 AM EDT
Well, am I the only one who feels this way?
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:32:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:34:21 AM EDT
I think it's sad. You cooperate completely, because you know that you are innocent, and they try and nab you on some bullshit charge anyway. WTF, aren't there enough bad guys to go after? Of course that could be dangerous. Unfortunately, the lesson learned is don't cooperate. When you have numbskulls like these guys abusing their power, it's bad for you and me and good for the real criminals.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:34:57 AM EDT
No, you're not the only one that feels that way. I'm 73, and there isn't a single time in my life where I've had a pleasant experience with the local or state police. Of course, my experience was soured by working for a black college in the 60's (still go the scars on my forehead and right arm), a couple of DUI arrests (and I've never had a drink in my life!), and working with mostly former LEO's ("sour grapes").z
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:43:45 AM EDT
Just goes to show you that you should always keep your mouth shut and don't volunteer anything. Doesn't matter whether you have or have not done something illegal. Had Oneshot requested a lawyer in the first place instead of giving tours of his house and free reign to the police he would probably not be in the position he is in now. The police will force you to work inside the system and obey the laws so force them to do the same. Make them work to find out if you are innocent or guilty of a crime. Don't tell them anything. They are out there to do a job, not make friends. Michael
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 9:43:56 AM EDT
LEO's are just like any other profession. Most are good, honorable folks, but some are not. The problem is, they are all endowed with a lot of power over the rest of us. And for the most part they (and the rest of the system) take up for one another even when they're wrong. So the bad ones can get away with just about anything. Also, the sense of power leads many LEO's to have a bad attitude, and use the power of the state for personal reasons. The founding fathers understood that governments held absolute power over the people unless the people themselves were armed. That is the whole reason for the second amendment. And that is why we need to keep fighting for it. If you have ever read George Orwell's 1984, you will remember that it was a terroist attack on America that leads the government into taking more and more of the people's rights in return for their "security". Kind of makes you wonder about all of the new powers that the FBI and CIA are wanting now. Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither. Ben Franklin
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:21:56 AM EDT
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=66162[/url]
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:45:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:52:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: Be careful. Those of us that have lost faith in the Average LEO are considered heretics and cop bashers here. I have met my share of good LEO's most here on this board i would not have a problem trusting. BUt the average moron with badge on the street is barley qualified to flip burgers. Let alone protect anyones person or property. People need to realize that they are there for reactive reasons after a crime is commited. Seldom if ever can they arrest a criminal prior to commiting a crime. A lot of these guy are trying to make a name for themselves or further their careers at the expense of the public. Thus the drummed up charges and "looking" for anything at all to bust you on. If they can't find a charge then they have to admit they were wrong and it usually ends up costing their department. Just for the record i have never had a "problem" with the law other than the occasional speeding ticket. However i have seen enough blatant abuses of power to distrust them. mike
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I haven't (met any good leo's)... as for the rest of it... yup.. back to burger barn with all of em.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:57:25 AM EDT
The question still remains is why aren't the "good" cops at the NRPD trying to do the right thing by coming forward and saying what the "bad" cops at the dept. are doing wrong? Is it possible that the entire police force there is corrupt or is everyone merely going about business as usual by adhereing to the blue wall of silence?
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 11:10:26 AM EDT
So is this where one goes to sign up for the Cop Bashers Anonymous Club?
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 11:39:05 AM EDT
I'm from the government.... I'm here to help.... [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/025/iv/H1/su/5578319.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 11:42:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: The question still remains is why aren't the "good" cops at the NRPD trying to do the right thing by coming forward and saying what the "bad" cops at the dept. are doing wrong? Is it possible that the entire police force there is corrupt or is everyone merely going about business as usual by adhereing to the blue wall of silence?
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Finally! he gets it.. YES, that is exactly right. They are pigs with no use other than keeping Winchels stock up.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 12:11:01 PM EDT
In general, LEOs don't come forward and finger other LEOs because they want to be able to count on the same code of silence protecting them if they screw up. They also know that breaking ranks opens them up for all kinds of abuse, no matter what the "bad apple" in question did. It's group dynamics at its worst.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 12:26:24 PM EDT
Interesting picture, One_slayer. Looks like one the bandits in the LA bank robbery shootout. If what this creep in the picture is doing is legal and above board, why is he wearing a ski mask? In many (mostly southern states), wearing of a mask (other than at Mardi Gras and for stage plays) for the purpose of concealing one's identity is a felony. There is no exception for police in these lows. For all we know this is some sort of KKK'er on his way to a lynching. So, if the guy is wearing a ski mask he is a felon using a weapon. In my view, guys wearing ski masks and carrying automatic weapon should be shot first and questioned later. But these days you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, they dress exactly alike. So confusing.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 1:27:34 PM EDT
hey I do believe that the feds do not have to go by the mask rule. looks like a atf badge on that guy in the picture. he's the one gonna take your gun's.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 1:45:08 PM EDT
The SWAT and other "paramilitary" units just want to play with the cool toys the average person will never be able to afford. It's just an infeiority complex if you ask me. The most "squared away" and "gung ho" guys are usually the ones who screw up, just like at Waco and Ruby Ridge. But then they have the federal badge to hide behind, and the masks. [smoke]
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 1:55:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sf46: So is this where one goes to sign up for the Cop Bashers Anonymous Club?
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Do you consider the situation with oneshot to be GOOD police work? Does it make you feel more sympathetic to police officers in general? If you answered yes to either question, then you need to go through some sort of 12-step program of your own, you're in denial.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 1:56:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By One_Slayer: I'm from the government.... I'm here to help.... [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/025/iv/H1/su/5578319.jpg[/img]
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No no...that's the Mall Ninja. He's just out in the parking lot standing watch over the sheeple like a god. :) Seriously though, unless I know the LEO personally, I always deal at arms length and I don't volunteer anything or fall for any of their ruses. If one ever gives me any of that "It'll be easier if you just cooperate" crap, I'll simply go silent at that point. I've done nothing wrong. Hasn't happened to me (yet). If they ever say "why don't you just let us search your car?...we can get a warrant real quick anyway" I'll say, "fine, then go get one if it's so damn easy. I'll be right here." I'll cooperate to the extent that I am required to. Beyond that, as Ayoob told me at LFI, the police are NOT your friends (at least durng an on-duty encounter). If Ayoob (a cop himself and a LEO instructor) is saying that, I'll have to believe it.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 2:01:18 PM EDT
Re: the abilities of LEO's & the burger flipping comment: The police seem to have our best interests in mind, but there are a lot of variables in life. There are things like the Miranda warning, etc. that probably leave the LEO's feeling hamstrung. Then there are the relatively small beefs that we come up with that we feel that the police should take action on. Feeling hamstrung results in them overreacting or taking no action at all. In most cases the answer seems to be no action. As a result, "No harm, no foul policing" has taken the place of actual law enforcement. I propose that we accept the law enforcement situation for what it is and change the entire policing function as follows. Have a few highly trained police officers per jurisdiction to investigate the crimes that are serious enough, by some yet-to-be-established standard. Then hire some clerks and clean up crews to handle crime scene investigations & tell the citizens that they have to handle actual investigation themselves. The advantages are first, reduced cost & tax savings, and, second, us citizens are told that truth that there really is NO law enforcement in the United States. For the most part LEO's & their management do not seem to believe in "zero tolerance" except for the occasional holiday roadblock for drunk drivers. With the school system teaching, & practicing, the high self-esteem concept to children we are looking at increasingly serious problems in law enforcement.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 2:07:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: The question still remains is why aren't the "good" cops at the NRPD trying to do the right thing by coming forward and saying what the "bad" cops at the dept. are doing wrong? Is it possible that the entire police force there is corrupt or is everyone merely going about business as usual by adhereing to the blue wall of silence?
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"Blue Alliegence System" The Good cops don't want to get a bad rep for going against other "officers". Why don't I.A. get better respect? after all, they weed out the bad cops right? naaahhhh. No_Expert
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:46:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2001 3:40:12 PM EDT by Halfcocked]
Originally Posted By One_Slayer: I'm from the government.... I'm here to help.... [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/025/iv/H1/su/5578319.jpg[/img]
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If they all wear their masks over their eyes like that what's the problem? Just run around and shout "Over here. No, over here, No, no over here." Maybe he wears it like that so you can't tell he's sleeping.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:51:37 PM EDT
They wear masks cause they have nothing to hide. ------ "Me Worry?"
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:26:06 PM EDT
You 'd have to be nuts to think that most police are looking out for your best interest. Boston T. Party said it best..."Cops work for the STATE, and the state is in search of BODIES." Don't be their next customer. If you haven't read his book "You and the Police", get a copy. The ass you save could be your own. My first degree was in criminology...and what I saw during my internships scared the hell out of me. Random thoughts - or, QS's 7 commandments of governmental relations: 7) Keepeth thine premises clean...thou knowest not the day or the hour. Lock your safe when you aren't actually getting into it. Conceal or lock up all weapons not in use for defense. As we've seen from OneShot's unfortunate example, they'll probably pick up anything they can get to if they have the opportunity. That includes you righteously shooting an intruder then calling the cops. Don't leave your copy of "Turner Diaries" out and visible when you aren't reading it. Pretend you could be searched at any moment, and you'll be okay if/when it does happen. 6) Keep thy Vehicle clean. If you look like a slob, you'll be treated like one. That means no trash and debris on the floor of your car, no loose ammunition or gun magazines lying around, and no '...from my cold dead fingers' bumper stickers. If you have a weapon in the passenger compartment, make sure you're either a)legal and licensed b)discreet and invisible. Any weapons/items you don't need should be locked in your trunk. Hint: a couple of children's toys in the back seat lends an air of normalcy. 5) If you look like a thug, expect to be treated like a thug. Look like Joe Respectable Citizen, and you'll be a lot more free to move about without being noticed. 4) Make any interaction with the police as brief as possible. Don't hang around and shoot the shit with him! All you're doing is giving him RAS (Reasonable Articulable Suspicion) to detain you. Remember, you do NOT have to talk to the police at the initial contact stage of the interaction. This is a good time to LEAVE. 3) If you have not followed any of the above advice, and you do find yourself detained, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Don't try to 'explain', SHUT THE FUCK UP! You should only have two sentences in your vocabulary. 1)"Am I free to go?" if the answer is NO, then 2)"I need to speak to my attorney." THEN, SHUT THE FUCK UP! If you have any questions about the wisdom of this rule, see OneShot's experience. 2) Have an attorney picked out NOW! If you own/carry guns, you may at some point find yourself in a legal entanglement. Get a good pro-gun attorney now, BEFORE you need him, and establish a relationship with him. When your ass is in the clink is not the time to be searching the Yellow Pages for Stanley Kahn. 1) Remember, the police are NOT your friend. QS
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:42:41 PM EDT
My opinion on this is this: unless you REALLY know an LEO good, don't say anything that might get you in trouble(I own a gun might qualify). There are a lot of good cops out there, but there are also a lot of ones who don't know that what they are doing is wrong. And when you are talking to an LEO, you never know which they are. You must remember, they deal with the dregs of society, so after a while, they start to think everybody is trying to break the law. They see really bad guys get off again and again, and they try to take it out on those who didn't do anything really wrong.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:11:09 PM EDT
Shi*Heads with guns and badges are still shi*Heads. Good people with guns and badges are still good people. Selection-Training-Pay
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:18:41 PM EDT
I have to agree with a lot of what everyone is saying, but being in law enforcement (I only work in the local jail now, I plan on going on patrol within a year), I think it is unfair to assume that most LEO are bad. I know of several overzealous deputies, but for the most part they are all trying to help clean up and protect society. I know there are a lot of inherent problems in the system and I hope that one day I can get to a position to change things around for the better. But you don't have to "don't trust the system anymore." Do your best to obey the law and if you are falsely accused and then acquitted, I think you should get a good lawyer and sue the city, county, state or whomever, to get your just compensation. Then you can buy more guns!! :)
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:44:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:57:29 PM EDT
I heard of a county in Tennessee that hired a guy as a deputy that was admitted to a mental institution for awhile and therefore is not allowed to possess a firearm privately! That is pretty scary! The problem stems from no one wanting to work in law enforcement, and from that, the "standards" are lowered until they can hire enough people. That is also scary! If the pay was better we could hopefully weed out these morons with a badge, and get things up to a standard that they should be at. But that will never happen. I'm not complaining about the wages myself, but if they were doubled, then I bet that thing would improve dramatically.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:01:02 PM EDT
Tadley said: "Do your best to obey the law and if you are falsely accused and then acquitted, I think you should get a good lawyer and sue the city, county, state or whomever, to get your just compensation. Then you can buy more guns!! :)" The problem is all the time, money, stress, humiliation and loss of property I would suffer before I even get to sue them!!! I would prefer, that the good LEO's actually take action to make sure sh!t like this doesn't happen in the first place. Until I see the "Good" LEO's do something I have to assume they'll just turn the other cheek while innocent people like Oneshot get reamed a new one... Again I want to say I know not all LEO's are bad, but bad ones sure make the biggest impression. Tadley, I hope you get to make a difference when you get into position of power. Regards, Chris
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:05:01 PM EDT
All law enforcement officers are dirtbags, at least the ones I have run into. They just commit crimes legally thats all they do and screw over law abiding citizens when they should go catch a criminal doing something bad. But basically all law enforcement officers are dirtbags.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:10:01 PM EDT
Well LEO's do have the best dope. (Of course I inhaled but did not puff.) [:D]
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:18:06 PM EDT
JBR Said All law enforcement officers are dirtbags, at least the ones I have run into. They just commit crimes legally thats all they do and screw over law abiding citizens when they should go catch a criminal doing something bad. But basically all law enforcement officers are dirtbags. Well JBR I find that when people like to generalize like that, that USUALLY they are the ones always breaking the law. I won't say always, cause I don't like to generalize. You need to stop speeding all the time and then you won't have so many encounters with the law. humm...something to think about??
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:29:25 PM EDT
95% of the cops are making the good ones look bad.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:36:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tadley: Well JBR I find that when people like to generalize like that, that USUALLY they are the ones always breaking the law. I won't say always, cause I don't like to generalize. You need to stop speeding all the time and then you won't have so many encounters with the law. humm...something to think about??
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Speeding tickets are simply a tax on people who like to drive fast. Are you saying that you have NEVER drove faster than the posted speed limit? If so then I call bullshit. Michael
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:58:15 PM EDT
Thanks for the good advice Quietshooter. I recommend the same. Be prepared for a warrant search at all times.Nothing illegal to be found. Clean car. Clean appearance. Avoid arguments.Avoid confrontations in the street. Divorce a woman that fights.Trust no one. Say nothing at work.Don't post photo's of inventories.Question Authority.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:59:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tadley: I have to agree with a lot of what everyone is saying, but being in law enforcement (I only work in the local jail now, I plan on going on patrol within a year), I think it is unfair to assume that most LEO are bad. I know of several overzealous deputies, but for the most part they are all trying to help clean up and protect society. I know there are a lot of inherent problems in the system and I hope that one day I can get to a position to change things around for the better. But you don't have to "don't trust the system anymore." Do your best to obey the law and if you are falsely accused and then acquitted, I think you should get a good lawyer and sue the city, county, state or whomever, to get your just compensation. Then you can buy more guns!! :)
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Tadley I not really trying to bust your chops or anything but if you were working in that precinct would you question the actions of your fellow officers?
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:11:13 PM EDT
Imagine that you are talking to your lawyer. "The cops descended on me, and I felt obligated to talk to them, telling them everything.. so I did." Your lawyer would be falling over backwards at this point, clutching his chest. The lawyers advice is always to "say nothing." ------ Question (someone else's) Authority.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:26:38 PM EDT
The question that I think sums up the whole argument: What is the first thing that goes through your mind when you see a police officer? I tend to be afraid that they're going to hassle me for something I didn't even know was illegal, or some nonsense law. How many of us feel safer when we see a cop?
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:33:57 PM EDT
Its your responsibility to know every law.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:55:11 PM EDT
I figure my opinion will probably get some people riled up. I only wish to preface this that yes, I do know a number of police officers personally, and do have the utmost respect for them, as well as their duty. However, when I consider ANY police officer with regards to things like my enjoyment of firearms, or my belief in the Consitution, I can't help but remember a quote by Laurence Fishbourne from The Matrix: "These people are still a part of THAT system, and that makes them our enemy...and many of them are so inurred, so hopelessly depended on the system, that they will fight to protect it." A badge is nothing but a piece of metal, and a uniform is nothing but cloth. Neither of them tell me what kind of PERSON a given police officer is. Therefore, just as any police officer upon initially deciding to stop or question me would consider me a potential danger (for their safety), I find myself required to treat each and every one as a potential "bad cop", for the sake of my own safety. It is not that I do not respect them...far from it. Hell, thanks to some of the laws, even if they are a genuinely good person, they are forced to be the bad cop. They are part of that system. And we've all seen and read what happens when the system decides it needs to 'deal' with you. I simply refuse to become another victim, another casualty, because of the system or some overzealous police officer. And if that makes people think I hate cops, so be it.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 8:02:35 PM EDT
Halfcocked Said, "but if you were working in that precinct would you question the actions of your fellow officers?" My answer would be yes. I have plenty of criticism for the idiotic officers that do things like that! There is a lot of criticism among deputies here if someone goes off like that. We've had some deputies get fired because other deputies "ratted" on them. They were given the opportunity to behave and they didn't, so they got axed. No code of silence here. I have gotten several speeding tickets in my life, and now I go above the speed limit, but not to where I'll get a ticket (5-7mph). I'm not perfect, and I never claimed to be. I don't know all the laws, do you?? I follow common sense laws, and that keeps me safe.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 8:23:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Question Authority.
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Oh yeah? Sez who? :^)
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 8:26:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 8:31:46 PM EDT
An old friend of mine has a foolproof way of dealing with cops: when a cop pulls him over, he starts crying. Oh, by the way, this friend is African-American. Works like a charm. Me? One time I got the cojones and presence of mind in a similar situation to reply to the cop who was questioning me why I was so nervous, "Well, officer, as a child in Germany, I was beaten by a policeman" (then I point to a scar on my head, made by my little brother throwing a Jart at me when I was ten years old)".....mostly, I'm better now, but whenever I see any kind of uniform...well, I'm sure you understand..." The cop got really uncomfortable, and let me go with a warning.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 8:34:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: Until the courts begin to realize that the word of a police officer is not gospel they can pretty much get away with any violation of your rights that they want.
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And that's why they call it "testilying", kiddies......
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 8:36:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 1:03:49 AM EDT
Where's Rapid_Fire? The basher's are calling you out.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 11:45:15 AM EDT
Is it considered cop bashing to discuss how we feel about "LEOs"? I don't feel like the LEO's are really looking after my welfare, do you? At one time I actually think I might have cooperated and do as Oneshot did, but now I know better...
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 2:47:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Thanks for the good advice Quietshooter. I recommend the same. Be prepared for a warrant search at all times.Nothing illegal to be found. Clean car. Clean appearance. Avoid arguments.Avoid confrontations in the street. Divorce a woman that fights.Trust no one. Say nothing at work.Don't post photo's of inventories.Question Authority.
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Right, because afterall this IS the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, right? [rolleyes] TheRedGoat/Baphomet
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