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Posted: 11/19/2001 1:32:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:42:32 PM EDT
Hey, being 15 I can tell you that I think its necessary. Some of these kids don't learn it from their parents like they should and instead they either learn it from their friends or explore it on their own, which can be bad both ways. The school doesn't need to go into full depth about how it works, more or less then what the consequences are if you chose to partake. -Marksman762
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:42:56 PM EDT
Whether or not sex-ed at school will encourage kids to have more sex can be debated to infinity. My personal experience with sex is that, the more you know, the more you WANT to know. But here's my STRONGEST objection to public school sex-ed - its NOT THEIR JOB. Its just ANOTHER example of parents ceding their responsibility to Almighty Gov't, a step closer to the nanny state. Another thing that I saw that pissed me off - a youth hunter education course taught by the state. WHY AREN'T THEIR DAD'S TEACHING THEM FIREARM SAFETY????? Grrrrrr.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:48:14 PM EDT
We homeschool. Hmmm...tough one.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:52:11 PM EDT
"Should there be secret abortions for your teenage daughter at school?" Too late. California has that NOW. Don't bother telling me we don't. My junior high school health teacher made that offer to my health class. And she was heavily pregnant at the time [puke]
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:52:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:53:58 PM EDT
I disagree with sex-ed in the school, and when they get into Homosexualty as being normal, how long before it is taught also? Na, it is my job as a father and my wifes as a mother to pass on how and why sex works, not the schools.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:57:26 PM EDT
I agree with garandman that it's NOT the school or the state's job to educate my children about sex. As parent's, it's our responsibility to handle that one how we see fit. If you wan't something done competantly, you don't let the state do it! Personally, when our children are old enough to get "the talk," they'll get it. I'll be uncomfortable, they'll be uncomfortable, and it'll be the parent/child right of passage that it's supposed to be! [:D] I'll also put my religious POV on it, as well as a few pieces of personal advice. I've had some experience dealing with my little brother, who's in his early teens, and I think I've done well so far. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:00:05 PM EDT
The government has limited power and I think four distinct missions - provide for National defense, govern interstate commerce, common weights and measures (ex: common coinage) and something that currently escapes me. Telling my children "alternative lifestyles" are natural, abortion is right or wrong, etc., just isn't their business. Period. Black Fox
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:10:46 PM EDT
Youngun's were having sex long before it was taught in school.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:16:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Planerench: We homeschool. Hmmm...tough one.
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Umm, yup, we do too, it is a touch choice, let the school teach 'em or the parents. I agree with G-man... the problem isn't with education, or the schools, or really even the kids (they're jsut kids and curious) - it's with the parents. My sister sees it all the time (teacher, middle school). Parents come in to parent/teacher conference, big chips on their shoulders, "Not my Johnny/Janie - they're perfect" - yeah, right. Parents expect waaay to much of the schools, and the teachers, and then compain when, because of the lack of their own involvement, little Jimmy gets some girl PG, or Janie comes home from school crying. If they'd just stop and take even the smallest time of [b]undivided[/b] attention with the kid. This means no beepers, no cell phones, heck, go fishin' or better yet Shootin' [:)] Nope, the parents should take the time to explain it.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:37:45 PM EDT
This all stems from the lack of parenting. Being a gen X'er, we have caught crap from every generation preceding us. First it was music that was making kids act "crazy", then it was movies, then video games ... when are parents going to take resposiblity for your child rearing?!?!?! This finger pointing is getting us nowhere. Teachers are having to bear more of the parental role, because parents just seem not to give a damn WHAT their children are doing these days.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:46:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2001 2:39:08 PM EDT by Marksman762]
Originally Posted By glx1747: ...because parents just seem not to give a damn WHAT their children are doing these days.
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I agree, its the job of the parents, but like glx said, SOME parents don't give a damn one way or another. Thats where I think the teachers should say, "Ok, heres what happens if you have sex..." Thats it, nothing more is needed. -Marksman762
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 4:14:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 4:50:53 AM EDT
I'm still waiting for the public schools to teach spelling, grammar, history, geography, and arithmetic. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 4:52:38 AM EDT
Mark this one down, Lads & Lasses, I AGREE 100% with Garandman! Home only, along with firearms training BY THE PARENTS. School is to gain an education needed to understand and function in society, NOT to indoctrinate students into subjects of the Empire. Don Out
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 5:01:45 AM EDT
Here is my beef with the "parents should teach it": most parents WILL NOT teach their kids about sex ed. I work in a public school system as an administrator. My mom teaches 1st grade in a public school system. Parents are stupid. They do not teach their kids about sex, or anything else at times, they expect the school to handle that. Our sex-ed program is more about the basics, and we DO NOT teach about homosexuality. I don't know what school systems do, but we do not. We teach kids the biological part of sex, and we teach that abstinence is best. We do tell the kids what a condom is, just as we tell the girls about the pill and a diaphragm. Kids will have sex, remember when you were a teen? Teaching how to protect yourself will help lower unwanted pregnancies, thus help lowering abortions (a good thing). Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 5:06:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Kids will have sex, remember when you were a teen? Av.
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That is simply NOT so. I was a virgin when i got married (23 years old). And I am DAMNED proud of that. Your attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Widespread teen pregnancy, ay least in THIS country, is a relatively new phenomenon. And you KNOW what my belief as to the causes of that are.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 5:11:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Here is my beef with the "parents should teach it": most parents WILL NOT teach their kids about sex ed.
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ANOTHER self-fulfilling prophecy. They don't because now they know they DON'T HAVE TO do something uncomfortable. Sex Ed in schools is promoting parental whimpiness.
I work in a public school system as an administrator. My mom teaches 1st grade in a public school system. Parents are stupid. Our sex-ed program is more about the basics, and we DO NOT teach about homosexuality. I don't know what school systems do, but we do not. We teach kids the biological part of sex, and we teach that abstinence is best. Av.
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then your school system is the EXCEPTION. Many sex ed programs view teaching abstinence as the promotion of "religion." And God knows we can't allow God into the school. Not meant to be offensive. I just see MASSIVE holes in the sex ed programs I've come in contact with. And regardless of WHAT the parents do, it is NEVER the domain of the schools to enter into this area of human development. EVER.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 5:53:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 5:48:00 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Sorry but, PARENTS DON'T TEACH THEIR KIDS AT HOME! While I hear a lot of people here talking about "home schooling", it is HARD to teach a child. Most parents don't want to be bothered. Some parents I run into have tried but gave up. Some parents do a good job. There are more failures than successes. Do you think that the dad that leaves his kid a school untill 5:30pm so he can go drinking is going to tell his son about sex? How about the kids that come from broken homes? Who will teach them? Did your mom and dad sit down and talk to you about sex? If so, WHEN? At 18? Too late. 16? Too late. You also stated "My personal experience with sex is that, the more you know, the more you WANT to know." And a parent teaching their kid about sex WON'T make them curious? Are you going to teach your kids about the use of a condom? How about telling a girl about the pill? Kids are going to have sex, abstinence is not the only option! Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:13:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 6:08:43 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Sorry but, PARENTS DON'T TEACH THEIR KIDS AT HOME!
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Again, that is simply NOT true. At least, not in the Christian community, with which I have EXTENSIVE experience.
Did your mom and dad sit down and talk to you about sex? If so, WHEN? At 18? Too late. 16? Too late.
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yes they did. i don't remember exactly when, but apparaently WHAT they did, and WHEN they did it worked, as I was a virgin when I got married. To date, I have been married 10 years, and my marriage is VERY strong. ZERO infidelity.
You also stated "My personal experience with sex is that, the more you know, the more you WANT to know." And a parent teaching their kid about sex WON'T make them curious?
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OF COURSE, it will make them curious. But parents have the option of instilling moral values WITH the knowledge they provide about human sexuality. Schools are FORBIDDEN from doing that. All they do is say "here's a condom. Far be it from us to "moralize" Its like saying "here's teh keys to a ferrari, little 15 year olds. But we won't tell you whether or not you should drive the car." Kids are naturally inquisitive. The public school gets them all jacked up with knowledge about sex, but COMPLETELY without ANY moral guidelines of how human sexuality is to be handled. Sex has the keys to BOTH life and death. Schools credit themselves with providing sexual knowledge, but the schools REFUSE to provide guidelines. That is BEYOND wrong. Its almost criminal.
Are you going to teach your kids about the use of a condom? How about telling a girl about the pill?
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parents taught their kids for hundreds of years in this country BEFORE sex ed how human sexuality should be handled. We can debate the causality, but you CANNOT argue the correlation (i.e. timing) between an EXPLOSION in teen pregnancy and sex ed in the schools. Stated another way, when parents did their job, teen pregnancy was a rarity in this country. Since sex ed, teen pregnancy is epidemic.
Kids are going to have sex, abstinence is not the only option!
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Your attitude is nothing more than a self-fulfilling propehcy. That FACT that I abstained is PROOF that it can be done. And I can give you HUNDREDS more examples of people JUST like me, who also abstained. So, simply put, you are just DEAD WRONG here.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:32:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 6:27:14 AM EDT by Avalon01]
While I'm glad you were able to abstain from sex until you thought the time was right, I don't think that public schools teaching sex ed causes kids to have sex. Teens are going to have sex. End of story. Is abstinence a good thing, sure it is. Masturbation can also help keep kids from being parents much to young, but for those kids that are going to have sex anyway, we should make sure they have the proper protection. Giving a kid a condom is like giving a kid a car with airbags. If he's going to play, he might as well be protected. And I'm just curious, what morals are we not teaching? We teach kids to respect themselves and each other. Accept others even thought they may be different. Never do something the other person does not want to. Date rape drugs are for loosers. Don't smoke or do drugs. Don't huff glue or solvents. Don't drink. If you see a gun, stop, don't touch and tell a parent. Stop drop and roll. Can we teach sexual morals? Nope. Why you ask? Well because PARENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO THAT! They are not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Public school sex ed is all about the biology, we can't teach the moral aspect since paprents all have different values! Oh, and you were right in your earlier post garandman. We could debate this to infinity! [:D] IMHO, the best way would be for parents to back up what we teach in school with their own moral guidelines. We don't teach the "Christian" values because we CAN'T. One, because the state says so, and two because not everyone is Christian. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:37:30 AM EDT
As a proud father, I will state definitively: Sex-ed belongs in the home only! We don't trust our schools to give accurate information about guns do we? Or the environment? How about History? Forget about it! I suppose in order to be consistent, schools ought to hand out .45s to all students, and say, "This is how it works, this is what you do with it. I can't tell you what not to do with it. Oh, by the way, be careful and use the safety!" This is exactly what our government schools are doing now with Sex-ed. Imagine the outcry! Imagine the indignance! Our children are being injured by firearms! We are helping our kids murder! (They say this even now). Now tell me why we teach them about equally dangerous things such as sex in such an environment? "They will just do it anyway", they rant. Well, yes and no. Parents who care give a proper education, and all kids make choices. Some make good choices, some make bad, but all with the proper education and warnings. Parents who don't care are already getting their teenage girls on "the pill", buying their kids condoms, letting them party all night in mixed groups and treating them like their best friends. This approach is being tried by our schools now, and it is padding the pockets of Planned Parenthood with the money and sorrow of millions of terrified women, and the blood of millions of innocent children.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:43:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: And I'm just curious, what morals are we not teaching? We teach kids to respect themselves... Av.
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In THIS area, you are actually teaching WRONG morals. NO ONE needs to be taught to "respect themselves." NO ONE needs to be taught to "love themselves." Selfishness and self-interest does NOT need to be taught. It is genetically encoded in all of us. When I hear 'respect yourself' I hear "Do what is best for you." I hear Sesame Street. "The most important person in the whole wide world is YOU, and you know it..." And BOY OH BOY do kids and even 20-30 somethings have that tune down well. The fact is the lack of self-esteem we see in kids today is from a guilty conscience that is in part CAUSED by their own selfishness and the feeding of their own desires no matter how harmful to others. Trust me - kids "respect themselves" WAY too much already. What we need taught is "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you." What we need taught is that the road to TRUE joy is putting others before yourself. The road to TRUE joy is "respecting others." "Repsect yourself" is psycho-babble mumbo jumbo that I credit with MANY of the societal problems we face today. Sorry for the sermon, but this crap chaps me hide.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:46:10 AM EDT
ARRRRRGGGG! Where do you people get this stuff from? Public schools are doing the best we can with the limited funds we have! We have to appease ALL types of people. We can't teach Christian values, or Jewish values, or Hindu values, or any other value. We can't do it! Parents are SUPPOSED TO BACK UP WHAT THE SCHOOLS TEACH! Before you moan and groan that public schools suck, you are also part of the problem! History class isn't teaching them about gun control, well then, you are supposed to! Don't agree with what the school teaches about the environment, then TEACH YOUR KIDS! Before you point fingers, take a hard look in the mirror. There are a lot of bad parents out there. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:47:01 AM EDT
[b]#3[/b]
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:50:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 6:46:04 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Originally Posted By garandman: What we need taught is that the road to TRUE joy is putting others before yourself. The road to TRUE joy is "respecting others."
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That IS one of the major things we teach at both the elementary and middle school level (I don't work in high school, so I don't know what they teach there). Respecting ones self is just as important nowadays though. I see 6th graders with bulimia. We had a 4th grader that stopped eating because she thought she was too fat. They need to learn to accept themselves for who they are, and not base their view of self off of TV adds and magazines with 98 pound women. Thus, respect yourself. Av. Edited becauze publik educatshun taugt me how to speel.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:54:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Public schools are doing the best we can with the limited funds we have!
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yeah, and if you JUST HAD MORE $$$$, all the problems would be solved. [rolleyes] In my hometown, 90% of the towns budget went to the school. There were STILL lots of teen pregnancies. Money AIN'T the answer.
We have to appease ALL types of people. We can't teach Christian values, or Jewish values, or Hindu values, or any other value. We can't do it!
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This is EXACTLY what I said. And exactly WHY I said sachools should NOT be engaged in teaching things they are NOT equipped to handle. Its like teaching fire starting WITHOUT teaching against arson. or like distributing AR15's to kids without teaching against murder.
Don't agree with what the school teaches about the environment, then TEACH YOUR KIDS! Av.
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Better yet, get your kids out of the PS system. And THEN experience the joys of paying for private education that teaches what you beleive, AND get to fund a school system that teaches everything you don't beleive. At least, that is my familys experience.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:04:45 AM EDT
Private education is a WHOLE new ball of wax. But I won't comment on it. Grrrr... all right I will. I spent 5 years in private education. Catholic school to be presise. It's was a dumping ground for all of the kids that were problems. Technology in the classroom was nonexistent. Books were 15 years old. Some of the Nuns were good teachers. Some were not. I was a bright kid (31 on the ACT in high school), there were NO gifted programs. I had to suffer in a regular classroom. I transferred to public school because my parents, 2 VERY Catholic people, saw the problems in the private school. I was able to grow in ways that I could never have done in the private school. Discovering technology was a turning point for me. Classes for us gifted kids. More and varied student body. I enjoyed my public school years. And if private schools are still just as bad then as they are now, I feel bad for kids that have to suffer the same things I did. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:07:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: This is EXACTLY what I said. And exactly WHY I said sachools should NOT be engaged in teaching things they are NOT equipped to handle. Its like teaching fire starting WITHOUT teaching against arson. or like distributing AR15's to kids without teaching against murder.
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So we should just say "Screw it."? What about all of the parents that DON'T teach their kids? Do you see my point? If we didn't teach this stuff, some kids would never have it taught to them. That is like distributing AR15's to kids without teaching against murder. Not all parents will take the time to teach their kids. We CAN NOT be a parent. PARENTS NEED TO BE RESPONSIBLE. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:10:20 AM EDT
I don't think that sex-ed has any place in public school. It probably has less to do with the reasons brought up by garandman, though I agree with some of them, and more to do with my belief that the public school system is currently an immense and capital failure. And I don't blame the teachers one bit....as Avalon01 said, most of them are doing the best they can with what resources they have. The government, and the school boards have, in my opinion, have transformed the school system into one that teaches children WHAT to think, instead of HOW to think. Teachers are tasked with a near immeasurable job, and then continually denied the resources and methods to perform that job. And in something that has such long term and wide ranging repercussions, I simply do not trust the school systems to be ALLOWED to teach what is necessary. As was mentioned, schools are not in the business of teaching morality. Understandable. But should they then be made to teach something that can not and should not be separated from reality? As was said before...would you teach a child how to handle a gun, but NOT teach them that shooting someone is wrong? I also dispute the oft-repeated notion that 'kids will do it anyway'. I won't argue whether or not this is true. Personally, I believe it's complete BS, but it's one of those moot points. I dispute it for the simple and sad fact that it's a straw-man argument that refuses to deal with the situation at hand. Just because they're going to do it DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD JUST LET THEM! Nor does it mean we should assist them in it. How CAN a system teach 'well....you really shouldn't have sex....but here's how to use a condom or get the pill'? Kids will speed...should we send them for Formula 1 training? Kids will do drugs...should we teach them how to grow and cut their own? Kids will use guns as a means of settling problems....should we send them to sniper school? Just because someone is 'going to do it anyway', doesn't mean we should just let them. Sex is power. It is the power to create life, and if you'd like to dispute that please go back and read your high-school biology book. As the saying goes, "With great power also comes great responsibility". I don't agree with teaching the kids power, but not the necessary responsibility.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:17:48 AM EDT
Avalon01 - I think the comparison of private and public schools is not really a valid one. Different areas of the country, even of the state, yield different results. I spent 12 years in Catholic schools. By First Grade I knew how to use a computer (If you consider a Trash80 as a computer!). By Third Grade I was programming BASIC on a Commodore 64. I had already taken courses in algebra. In High School I was in Honors track programs for English, Math, and Science. In my senior year I was taking college level Calculus (of course, a friend of mine was in college credit Calc II, as well as English and advanced Physics). They had regular courses teaching everything from computing basics to working on Office style tools to introductory C courses. While my fellows at public school were learning about basic woodshop (no, I am not knocking woodshop), my "religion" class was studying things like Greek history and philosophy. It would be next to impossible to get a teacher in the public schools near me to spend 3 hours after school debating Kant and the Categorical Imperative! The quality of teaching, as well as the quality of teacher-student interaction, was MUCH greater than that of the local public schools.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:20:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: So we should just say "Screw it."? What about all of the parents that DON'T teach their kids? Do you see my point? If we didn't teach this stuff, some kids would never have it taught to them. That is like distributing AR15's to kids without teaching against murder. Not all parents will take the time to teach their kids. We CAN NOT be a parent. PARENTS NEED TO BE RESPONSIBLE. Av.
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You obviously don't get it. You are not teaching them anything except that there are no morals except their own, and we will hand out birth control like candy at a carnival. Is birth control the solution to teenage pregnancy? Public schools seem to think so. That is why we have administrators giving examples such as airbags for cars. This approach is endorsed by Planned Parenthood which makes money everytime there is an unwanted pregnancy. The logic goes like this: Stimulate sexual curiosity in kids from an early age by starting Sex-ed in Primary grades. Make them feel safe by giving them 'protection'. But not all kids use protection every time, and protection is failure prone. This will ensure a continuous stream of pregnant girls. But hey! At least we gave 'em condoms!
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:33:00 AM EDT
Torf: Perhaps I wasn't in on the secret meeting between Planned Parenthood and school districts. We teach birth control along site abstinence since that is what we are told to do. And we do NOT teach sex ed in our elem. schools. Sex ed starts at 7th grade (middle school). That is about the time hormones are raging and kids start showing up in the office because they were making out in the halls. What morals are we supposed to teach? Somebody spell it out for me. We teach them to stay away from sex. We teach them to respect their boyfriend/girlfriend. We teach them not to use date rape drugs. We teach them how the body works and what they are feeling and going through is normal. We teach girls not to panic when they bleed. We DO NOT hand out condoms. We DO NOT refer girls to doctors so they can get birth control. We are an elementary district for goodness sakes. Do we teach them what a condom is? Yes. Do we teach girls about birth control? Yes. And if you belive ALL kids will abstain just because they are told to... what fantasy world do you live in? We tell kids not to smoke. Doesn't work. We tell them not to do drugs. Doesn't work. It will work on some, but some will have sex anyway. They should have the knowledge to stay safe. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:41:35 AM EDT
{rant mode on} Sex Ed has no place in the public school system. Topics such as that are the RESPONSIBILITY of the parents. If you don't want the job of raising your kids properly then get yourself fixed so you don't help populate the world with more f*cked-up kids that grow up to be f*cked up adults. There are way too many parents today that are too into themselves and don't want to invest the time it takes (and it takes a hell of a lot to do it right-I have three boys-I know) to be good parents and raise good kids. My parents always drilled into my head that life is all about choices and consequences. If you make the choice to do something then you have the responsibility to accept and deal with the consequences of that choice. If you have kids and choose not to handle some of the more unpleasant aspects of raising them then don't assume someone else will do it for you. If your kid gets knocked up(or knocks someone elses kid up) because you didn't feel like teaching them about sex and when it is appropriate then deal with it and don't blame the schools for your problem child. My wife is a teacher and you wouldn't believe how many crappy parents out there EXPECT the schools to raise their kids for them. {rant mode off} Finnbear out
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:57:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Torf: Perhaps I wasn't in on the secret meeting between Planned Parenthood and school districts.
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You missed a great one.
We teach birth control along site abstinence since that is what we are told to do. And we do NOT teach sex ed in our elem. schools.
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Most schools are not allowed to teach abstinance, and many schools do start sex-ed early in elementary.
Sex ed starts at 7th grade (middle school). That is about the time hormones are raging and kids start showing up in the office because they were making out in the halls.
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That is far too late. Morals should be taught long before then
What morals are we supposed to teach? Somebody spell it out for me.
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Don't have sex until you are married. How does that sound? Is that clear enough?
We teach them to stay away from sex. We teach them to respect their boyfriend/girlfriend. We teach them not to use date rape drugs. We teach them how the body works and what they are feeling and going through is normal. We teach girls not to panic when they bleed.
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Fine, but if morals were actually taught,(like Garandman refers to) you wouldn't have to teach someone that rape is wrong. Hello! Morals determine how we treat each other! What morals are we to avoid? Christian ones?
We DO NOT hand out condoms. We DO NOT refer girls to doctors so they can get birth control. We are an elementary district for goodness sakes.
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Either you are not telling the whole truth, or else you are in a unique situation. These things happen with regularity in public schools. Many organizations have sued to keep this information from parents as well. The NEA's position on this is pretty clear.
Do we teach them what a condom is? Yes. Do we teach girls about birth control? Yes.
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Why? so they feel like they can do whatever they want regardless of all the other teaching? You can spend thousands of words telling someone why they shouldn't have sex, but 3 words, "Use a condom" will destroy everything.
And if you belive ALL kids will abstain just because they are told to... what fantasy world do you live in? We tell kids not to smoke. Doesn't work. We tell them not to do drugs. Doesn't work. It will work on some, but some will have sex anyway. They should have the knowledge to stay safe.
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I believe I addressed this in my original post. It usually does work however. It worked during the first half of last century. Sure, some did it, but they were few, and the consequences were real. We are debating an issue that is a little bigger than your own school. Maybe your school is one of the better ones, but it is still disturbing to read your justifications and assumptions about how kids will behave.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:01:11 AM EDT
If you don't believe that Planned Parenthood has a lot of clout with the NEA, and that they don't wield a big sword over public education, then you must be blind. They lobby their issues: Sex-ed from an early age, contraceptive distribution, privacy laws abortion rights just as hard as the NRA lobbies theirs.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:14:21 AM EDT
I think we could debate this till we all fall over and collapse, but here is my basic belief: Public schools teach sex ed since parents are unwilling or unable to shoulder the responsibility of parenting. In a perfect world we should not have to tech sex ed. We get hits from everyone. It's a pain in the ass to teach it. Some parents feel it does not belong in the classroom. Some will take an interest and help fill in the gaps at home, some just don't care and let the school do everything. There seem to be a lot of people on this board who take an active interest in what their kids learn in school. GOOD! I wish there were more parents like you. But the reality is there are also bad parents. We have been tasked with having to raise kids. We shouldn't have to. We didn't choose to. But what can we do? We do the best we can. It's not perfect, but for some kids it's all they have. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:18:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf: If you don't believe that Planned Parenthood has a lot of clout with the NEA, and that they don't wield a big sword over public education, then you must be blind. They lobby their issues: Sex-ed from an early age, contraceptive distribution, privacy laws abortion rights just as hard as the NRA lobbies theirs.
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And I agree with none of the 3 issues you listed. If you want changes, make noise! Look at how well the anti-gunners do with all the clout the NRA has. Why do you sit here and bitch? Take it up with the state school board. Get active. You can change it if you make enough noise. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:39:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hard-case: I don't think that sex-ed has any place in public school. It probably has less to do with the reasons brought up by garandman, though I agree with some of them, and more to do with my belief that the public school system is currently an immense and capital failure. And I don't blame the teachers one bit....as Avalon01 said, most of them are doing the best they can with what resources they have. The government, and the school boards have, in my opinion, have transformed the school system into one that teaches children WHAT to think, instead of HOW to think. Teachers are tasked with a near immeasurable job, and then continually denied the resources and methods to perform that job. And in something that has such long term and wide ranging repercussions, I simply do not trust the school systems to be ALLOWED to teach what is necessary. As was mentioned, schools are not in the business of teaching morality. Understandable. But should they then be made to teach something that can not and should not be separated from reality? As was said before...would you teach a child how to handle a gun, but NOT teach them that shooting someone is wrong? I also dispute the oft-repeated notion that 'kids will do it anyway'. I won't argue whether or not this is true. Personally, I believe it's complete BS, but it's one of those moot points. I dispute it for the simple and sad fact that it's a straw-man argument that refuses to deal with the situation at hand. Just because they're going to do it DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD JUST LET THEM! Nor does it mean we should assist them in it. How CAN a system teach 'well....you really shouldn't have sex....but here's how to use a condom or get the pill'? Kids will speed...should we send them for Formula 1 training? Kids will do drugs...should we teach them how to grow and cut their own? Kids will use guns as a means of settling problems....should we send them to sniper school? Just because someone is 'going to do it anyway', doesn't mean we should just let them. Sex is power. It is the power to create life, and if you'd like to dispute that please go back and read your high-school biology book. As the saying goes, "With great power also comes great responsibility". I don't agree with teaching the kids power, but not the necessary responsibility.
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Worth a re-post, so I will. [:D] Well said hard-case. Well said.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 10:47:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: And I agree with none of the 3 issues you listed. If you want changes, make noise! Look at how well the anti-gunners do with all the clout the NRA has. Why do you sit here and bitch? Take it up with the state school board. Get active. You can change it if you make enough noise. Av.
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Oh, but I do! I really consider this to be arguing rather than bitching. I don't know why you had to use that phrase since you stated that you agree with me.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 10:54:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 10:47:14 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Sorry, bad choice of words. [stick] I stand corrected. All I want to see is parents take an active roll in raising their kids. Hopefully we can all agree on THAT! [:D] Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 11:53:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Sorry, bad choice of words. [stick] I stand corrected. All I want to see is parents take an active roll in raising their kids. Hopefully we can all agree on THAT! [:D] Av.
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Amen!
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:28:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 12:41:13 PM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By Avalon01: I work in a public school system as an administrator. My mom teaches 1st grade in a public school system. Parents are stupid. They do not teach their kids about sex, or anything else at times, they expect the school to handle that.
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I expect the school system to teach my children math, science, the english language and it's proper use. It does not have the right to teach my children moral values (that's MY job) or sexual education (again, MY job), and I damn sure didn't abdicate my rights as a parent like so many others who abandon their children at daycare while mommy and daddy engage in their careers instead of taking care of their primary responsibility. Most people these days seem to have children as a diversion, which is the absolute WORST reason to have one. If you can't raise a child properly, then don't have one.
Our sex-ed program is more about the basics, and we DO NOT teach about homosexuality. I don't know what school systems do, but we do not. We teach kids the biological part of sex, and we teach that abstinence is best. We do tell the kids what a condom is, just as we tell the girls about the pill and a diaphragm.
Kids will have sex, remember when you were a teen?
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I beg your pardon, but I didn't lose my virginity until I was 19 because I was 1) scared to death of catching AIDS or some other STD thanks to growing up in the AIDS generation and 2) I knew that if you didn't want to have kids, which are a great responsibility and everything gets put aside for them, then you didn't have sex. Yep, MY PARENTS TAUGHT ME THAT! They weren't perfect, but they taught me the important thing in life. And I spent my entire life in the public school system's Magnet honors program. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:33:43 PM EDT
My goodness, there sure are strong opinions on this topic! I have no idea what the schools are or are not teaching in this day and age as far as sex ed goes. I don't have any children, and it's been many years since I was a kid, but I remember what they taught back then, and it worked fine for me. When I was in school, all they told you was the biological aspect .... female reproductive system and sperm meets egg to make baby. IMO it's a damn good thing they did that much, because I had no idea at the time. My parents NEVER mentioned sex in front of the kids, and our TV viewing was very wholesome, so I didn't get a clue from that. As a result of the school's information, when my time came to become a "woman" (which coincidentally happened about two weeks after the class), I did not freak out like the character in the Stephen King movie, Carrie. I simply told my mother, and that opened up our discussion. If the school had not opened my eyes when they did, I would have been one messed up little girl, thinking I was dying or something. Therefore, my answer to this question was based on my own experience. I think it should handled by the school (biological info only) and the parents (for moral guidance according to their own beliefs).
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:47:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Sorry but, PARENTS DON'T TEACH THEIR KIDS AT HOME!
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Really? Come to my house and ask my 3 year old daughter to sing the ABC's for you. Ask her to count as high as she can. As her to spell her name. As her to read a book. Yep, she'll do them all because MY WIFE AND I TAUGHT HER TO! Then you can ask her about guns. If you're lucky she'll give you the trigger control speach. It's a doozy!
While I hear a lot of people here talking about "home schooling", it is HARD to teach a child. Most parents don't want to be bothered.
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And most parents suck at their real job, being parents. That's the biggest crime ever. I hear tons of reaons why people don't devote all their efforts to raising good kids. Sure, children are our future, but we'll let strangers at daycare raise them for us.
Do you think that the dad that leaves his kid a school untill 5:30pm so he can go drinking is going to tell his son about sex?
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Sounds like dad needs some sense knocked into him. Where's his family to tell him he's doing a bad job? O right, we're so modern with our nuclear family that we've forgotten the important role of extended families.
How about the kids that come from broken homes? Who will teach them?
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Volunteer to be a Big Brother. It's a lot of fun, and you make a hell of an impacton a kid's life. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:47:10 PM EDT
I agree with AR-15gal and GodBlessTexas. As stated in an earlier post, parents need to take responsibility for teaching their kids. If you don't like what the public school teaches, make sure you are there to teach your kids your beliefs. The public schools system has been tasked with raising kids. That is not what public school is for. There are too many bad parents out there however. For everyone that says "I will teach my kids", I applaud you. You are good people. But try to remember that there is someone else who is unwilling to do the same. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:50:47 PM EDT
Do you think that the dad that leaves his kid a school untill 5:30pm so he can go drinking is going to tell his son about sex?
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Sounds like dad needs some sense knocked into him. Where's his family to tell him he's doing a bad job? O right, we're so modern with our nuclear family that we've forgotten the important role of extended families.
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Bingo. Somebody get this guy a cookie.
How about the kids that come from broken homes? Who will teach them?
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Volunteer to be a Big Brother. It's a lot of fun, and you make a hell of an impacton a kid's life.
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Already volunteer as a Big Brother. My sister volunteers as a Big Sister. Av.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:51:00 PM EDT
Avolon, no flame but if my daughters were still in school I would work 2 or even 3 jobs to get them into a pvt school. You have convinced me. As a parent I don't like to be lumped in with every other "parent" out there, I have spent the time with my girls, got pretty good at deprogramming them after a day of programing that I did not agree with. Some parents don't care, I agree, some do, I think a lot more than you might believe. On a military pay check and always moving I could not afford either home schooling or pvt schools, so I had to make do with the public school system, I had many arguments and pulled my girls out of a few classes. I will admit I was a pain in the ass for the admin but it seems I got calls from a lot of teachers that agreed with me, but wanted to keep their jobs. Sgt Williams has been deployed was a relief to some[:D] however I always came back. I got a full report from the girls. What I am trying to say in my own way is, teach them to read, write, history (although they get a lot of that at home), math, but stay out of their pants. SFC(ret) Rew E. Williams
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:57:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rew: I disagree with sex-ed in the school, and when they get into Homosexualty as being normal, how long before it is taught also? Na, it is my job as a father and my wifes as a mother to pass on how and why sex works, not the schools.
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Sex Ed should only cover the scientific and biological aspects only, leaving out the sexual preferences. Likely would never happen but it would be unbiased.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:59:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 1:01:34 PM EDT by Avalon01]
I guess its frustrating to keep seeing kids year after year be neglected by parents. Kids left at school because parents forgot about them, kids who are on free lunch because mom and dad want the 52 inch TV instead, kids who are beaten. It's just easy to forget that parents care about their kids. Those are the ones we never see. Working for the public school system has changed my whole outlook on having kids. I used to want children. Now I do not. There is just way to much misery out there. There are too many people out there who DON'T care about their kids. It's heartbreaking, and it's not easy knowing the problem kid in 1st grade will probably be in jail by 8th, no matter how hard you try. Av. Edited for spelling
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