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Posted: 11/19/2001 11:47:55 AM EDT
In past arguments (i.e. Glock vs. 1911), IPSC has been raised as an example of a test bed of pistol performance. The critical response has been that IPSC 1) isn't "realistic", and 2) the "race guns" used are neither typical nor serviceable. It is true that IPSC isn't realistic. It doesn't generally teach good tactics, and sometimes it teaches very bad ones. But I contend that it does a good job of measuring shooting performance. Top IPSC shooters are some of the top pistol shooters out there. Likewise, the "race guns" used have limited "real-world" value. They don't make good concealed carry side arms, or even open carry side arms. At best, they could have value as some sort of "offensive pistol" for very limited applications. However, I contend that IPSC competitors will tend towards the optimum action type, within the confines of the discipline*, for fast & accurate shooting. The reliability or "race guns" has been panned, but (assuming that they are not reliable) it doesn't change the fact that they will represent the optimum action type. * By "confines of the discipline" I'm thinking of things like the large target count. It seems to me that revolvers are pretty much sidelined by firepower requirements, and that a revolver user could argue that IPSC fails to show that autos are superior.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 12:02:42 PM EDT
Shoot IPSC... learn to shoot fast... learn to shoot accuratly. Learn to do tactical reloads and use of cover somewhere else. Shoot IDPA and get a mix of tactical operation and surgical speed shooting.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:25:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2001 2:19:01 PM EDT by AR308and223]
When I shot IPSC, at the time the only handgun I had was a S&W 645 (bone stock) drawing from a Milt Sparks holster (concealed carry type) On certain courses, there were pre-determined tactical reloads and points were deducted if you failed to do so, not to mention the ridicule from your friends for screwing-up [:D] Also, many times we had to shoot from a cover position, door frames, through 55 gal. drums, behind boxes, ect... While not a real world shootout, it still re-inforces the idea's of, get to cover to shoot and do a reload when reasonably safe to do so.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:33:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By alive45acp: Shoot IPSC... learn to shoot fast... learn to shoot accuratly. Learn to do tactical reloads and use of cover somewhere else. Shoot IDPA and get a mix of tactical operation and surgical speed shooting.
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Nothing is perfect, but the things that bug me about IDPA are the excessive rules about the precise target engagement sequence and number-of-rounds requirements. "OK, first this guy gets 1 here, then 2 there, then that guy gets 3...." Sheesh!
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:12:11 PM EDT
I went to a few IPSC matchs, I could not tolerate the queers sitting around comparing holsters and magazines like girls at the prom. There was a couple of pony tail wearing gym rats, practicing ninja/karate moves on passer-bys and each other. The highlite was a couple of felons with "aryan brotherhood" tattoos toting guns. I shot my stock as a rock 1911 from inside the pants with mags in my back pocket and finished 10th out of more than 60 shooters at the last match. Even though I paid entry fees, I was told I could not collect a prize unless I joined their society of queers. Yeah IPSC will make you great.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 1:00:41 AM EDT
i agree completely with Lonegunman. i went to an IPSC shoot on the west coast with a 1911 built by an armomrer friend. a lot of ponytailed gym-fa*s wearing bodybuilder pants and tank-tops. what really bugged me were guys with more money than skill. whats the point of having a $1800 wilson racegun with the custom speed holster etc when you SUCK!!! i was having my stances and use of cover critiqued by guys who've never been shot at or had to employ a sidearm in a tactical situation..F them!!!! im alive, im still here...so obviously my use of cover is effective!!!!
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 2:16:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2001 2:09:39 AM EDT by AR308and223]
Originally Posted By lonegunman: I went to a few IPSC matchs, I could not tolerate the queers sitting around comparing holsters and magazines like girls at the prom. There was a couple of pony tail wearing gym rats, practicing ninja/karate moves on passer-bys and each other. The highlite was a couple of felons with "aryan brotherhood" tattoos toting guns.
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It appears, time has changed things. Last time I shot an IPSC match was 93 (maybe 94). Divorce caused a serious change in lifestyle.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 3:28:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DvlDog: i agree completely with Lonegunman. [b]i went to an IPSC shoot on the west coast[/b] I think this is what really tainted you. you should come out to the clubs in GA. I just shot my first match with the club at south river this past weekend.it was a three gun match and they put on a hell of a show. great bunch of people. I've been shooting USPSA for many years both pistol and three gun matches and I love it, fast and furious. is it realistic? dose it teach you tactics? no. but it will teach you gun handling skills and marksmanship if you want to learn them, And you don't have to have a "race" gun to play. USPSA has recently adopted Limited 10 (for the single stack fans) and production classes( for the Glock/Sig folks) [url]www.georgiaipsc.com/f_gasection.htm[/url] [url]www.uspsa.org/[/url]
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 5:01:48 AM EDT
IPSC: Gamers of the world, unite! IDPA: Stand around all day and get to shoot 60 or 70 rounds. No thanks.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:19:16 AM EDT
A few observations from an old fart. It's all good! Any time you shoot any type of competition you learn something. If you don't, you werent' paying attention. For example; It may be artificial to require that you shoot one handed, weak hand from behind a barricade without moving your feet outside the "box". What you might learn is that when shooting weak handed in an awkward position you have a tendency to slightly limp wrist the pistol, and that with the combination of your load and the strength of recoil springs installed in your pistol this results in a stove pipe jam 30% of the time. This teaches you that you need to: improve your grip, lighten up the springs, and/or increase the power of your loads. The point of the above is that you learn something about your shooter/equipment system in a non-life threatening situation, that could really cost you to find out in a situation where you have to defend yourself. Sure, someone can design a game that is better or worse at teaching survival skills than some other game/design. This is just a matter of opinion/debate. Does IPSC teach bad habits that might get you killed in a real gunfight, yes I think so. But, the important thing is that doing something is better than doing nothing. All other things being equal, the person who competes, confirms the functioning of his equipment, and learns that he can shoot fast and furious at contact distance yet has to slow down some to consistantly put a round on a 10 inch disk at 20 yards, is in a far better position to survive a gunfight with a person that doesn't know these things. As a "Gamer" once told me, "Don't worry about the guy who puts $1,000 into his gun, worry about the guy who puts $1,000 into primers.". This is wisdom. Lonegunman complains that he couldn't collect a prize without joining up. Hey quitcherbitchin! It's their game and their rules. You shot more than one match you knew the rules. My guess is that since you came in 10th in the last one you shot, you probably learned something in the previous matches that helped you beat 50 out of 60 shooters in the last one. Good job! doing that by the way. Did you score so well in your first match? If not, then you got your money's worth from shooting with them. Take the lessons for what they're worth and move on if you don't like the people.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:47:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR308and223: . . . Also, many times we had to shoot from a cover position, door frames, through 55 gal. drums, behind boxes, ect... While not a real world shootout, it still re-inforces the idea's of, get to cover to shoot and do a reload when reasonably safe to do so.
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Yes, but the nature of the scoring means that you will only pay "lip service" to the use of cover, if your goal is winning by "playing the game". Of course, it is up to you, you can make good use of the cover even if it costs you some time . . . and you can learn more than someone who scores higher.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:57:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Maddog50:
Originally Posted By alive45acp: Shoot IPSC... learn to shoot fast... learn to shoot accuratly. Learn to do tactical reloads and use of cover somewhere else. Shoot IDPA and get a mix of tactical operation and surgical speed shooting.
View Quote
Nothing is perfect, but the things that bug me about IDPA are the excessive rules about the precise target engagement sequence and number-of-rounds requirements. "OK, first this guy gets 1 here, then 2 there, then that guy gets 3...." Sheesh!
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IDPA also has some arbitrary (and silly) rules about weapons used, etc. I understand the desire to "fix" IPSC, but the IDPA powers went about it the wrong way, IMO. Instead of dictating mag capacity or how many rounds per target, they should have simply reduced the number of targets to a reasonable number (how many guy can you take on at normal handgun distances, anyway?). And instead of arbitrary rules restricting technology, they should have simply requuired that the guns be concealable. Many of the others who responded to this post have a problem with (the current?) IPSC culture.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 9:30:34 AM EDT
Well I have never shot IDPA so I can't comment on that. However I have shot in an IPSC league and a IPSC clone club. Granted this was when I was interned in Kali so it may be different in other parts of the world. I would have to agree with LONEGUNMAN on the majority of his observations. It seemed like you had 3 distinct groups of people. 1 the silly GRAND PUBA "masters" who have all the power in the clubs. They make the stages and run in a very tight clique. Had one of them give me lecture that he as an IPSC shooter was the most comanding gunfighter there is. And of course the 38 super plus p was the most deadly impliment of destruction that has ever graced the face of this here planet earth. He even gave me a buch of demos of how he could out draw any FBI man. Look I was an MP in the guard and have exactly NO REAL tactical experience. Yeah I took a few classes from people like Chuck Taylor but no real world fights. But come on fighting wars with pistols. My point is they think they are it all just because they hit targets fast. Just a buch of guys who work bad jobs and want to have a tough hobby. 2. Guys who have all the fancy gear but don't have the skill. Just type #1 in training. Alot of nice guys that are well meaning but are just on their way to becoming jerks. The vast majority of people are like this. Well meaning but on their way to becoming tainted. 3. Cop wannabes. I refuse to ever wear cammo except when I am on duty (training)or out hunting. Shit these guys are nuts full tac gear at ISPC. We had a 3 gun match and if all of group #3 weren't decked out to the t. Minus of course the face paint. If you want to play soldier so much at least put on a ruck and then you will have to work. I think ISPC does have a bunch of nice people in it. Yet the gamesman mindset hurts any chance of honing your skills. Look if you just want to shoot it may be fine, yet if you are trying to hone martial skills for whatever reason I feel it is a bad choice. I have one observation though. If you want to see if your weapon will work it is wonderfull for that. These warriors make the stages so long and have so many rounds fired that if your particular hogs leg won't work you will find out soon enough. I just refuse to watch a bunch of grown men run around with kleats on holding guns. Cheers Jim
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 2:53:13 PM EDT
I shoot IDPA and enjoy the slant toward survival tactics, but I have to admitt that all that thinking makes you SLOW.[whacko] I like to shoot an IPSC match every once in a while just to let it all hang out. It's good for the soul! It really doesn't matter what shooting sport that your into; burning powder with people of a like mind is a good thing. [beer]
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